(20 Oct 2017, 10:40 am)GuyParkRoyal wrote Several years ago I stopped using the train for local travel because the bus was so much cheaper. I recently decided to give rail travel another try due to ageing buses appearing on the X21 and single deck vehicles creeping on to the 21 allocation.
I was surprised to discover that the train is now cheaper than the bus for my travel from Chester le Street to Durham and Newcastle (after 09:00).
Chester le Street to Newcastle return by bus £5.00
Chester le Street to Newcastle return by train £4.70 but reduced to £3.10 using my railcard.
Chester le Street to Durham return by bus £5.00
Chester le Street to Durham return by train £4.00 reduced to £2.65 using my railcard.
The train might not be as frequent as the bus but on the days when I can plan my journey around the train timetable that will now be my preferred mode of travel.

If word gets around that the train is cheaper, it may see demand dictate a more frequent service on train - obviously dicated by pathing issues.

I got off a TPX (which was heading to Newcastle) a few weekends ago at Chester and the platform was full of people waiting to board.
Obviously it isnt like that for every train, but there must be a reason they were all using the infrequent train, over the 24hr bus.

(20 Oct 2017, 11:53 am)Andreos1 wrote If word gets around that the train is cheaper, it may see demand dictate a more frequent service on train - obviously dicated by pathing issues.

I got off a TPX (which was heading to Newcastle) a few weekends ago at Chester and the platform was full of people waiting to board.
Obviously it isnt like that for every train, but there must be a reason they were all using the infrequent train, over the 24hr bus.

An ageing rattly Solar or a B7...even a Hybrid with loud NSA's which will take around 45 minutes in peak traffic vs a train in around 10 minutes.

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/sadi...buses-3455

Re-design of 'Hopper' fare, sees increase in usage.
Amazing what happens when the pricing of tickets is made even more attractive.

(06 Nov 2017, 12:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote http://www.citymetric.com/transport/sadi...buses-3455

Re-design of 'Hopper' fare, sees increase in usage.
Amazing what happens when the pricing of tickets is made even more attractive.

Not really relevant to de-regulated Britain, though.

(20 Oct 2017, 11:53 am)Andreos1 wrote If word gets around that the train is cheaper, it may see demand dictate a more frequent service on train - obviously dicated by pathing issues.

I got off a TPX (which was heading to Newcastle) a few weekends ago at Chester and the platform was full of people waiting to board.
Obviously it isnt like that for every train, but there must be a reason they were all using the infrequent train, over the 24hr bus.

Only just come across this thread, and those rail fares are cheap even by GM standards. I also live where there is an element of competition, on a section of route of about 4 miles into Manchester Piccadilly:

(Return) Rail fare  is £4.70 peak; £3.60 off-peak. This of course, includes both Rail and Metrolink across the city centre. Off-peak seems to be based on a 0930 arrival time in Manchester, not departure time from originating station. The service runs approx every 30 minutes off-peak, with up to 5 trains an hour on a very haphazard peak timetable. Journey time is between 8 and 14 minutes dependant on how many stops. Punctuality varies, but at present is poor. Trains are Class 142 & 150, with the occasional 156. Loadings are heavy and increasing dramatically. Its an ATN franchise. This seems to be mainly due to additional employment and/or transferring from buses, as it has not halted the continuing growth in traffic congestion.

Bus Fare is £4.30 (eff. flat fare for any return journey above 1.5 miles in most of GM). The service runs every 10 mins off-peak (slightly less in the morning peak). Journey time is between 24 and 30 minutes. Punctuality is poor between 0830 & 1100, but reasonable at other times. Sat/Sun morning punctuality was also poor until last weekend, but Stagecoach have finally addressed this, 33 months after parrallel services were slashed which exacerbated already tight running times. Around 90% of buses are Euro6 E400 MMCs.

Today was a classic example of transport problems: Trains were disrupted more than usual, due to a signal failure further down the line - the second consecutive Monday this has happened! The problem was fixed later in the morning, but trains were still running late this evening. Due to this morning's problems, I caught the bus - which was slightly late for the first mile or so, and then hit solid traffic. A 10+ minute delay due to an accident was exacerbated by GMP deciding two bus loads of passengers would be the ideal candidates to be further delayed, whilst they spent four minutes manouevering the low-loader with the damaged car away. Of course, it wasn't just us further inconvenienced, our driver was coming off onto his mealbreak just 5 minutes down the road, so his further delay would have a knock on effect to the passengers on his second half of his duty, as well as the outbound passengers on the bus' next journey.

Getting back to the point, and this might not apply in the case of Chester-le-Street, but  round here, any further increase in rail passengers/services would not only bring about more capacity issues (and tax spending to solve/satisfy them), but also reduce the viability of competing buses. That in turn must result in increased car ownership and ergo increased congestion/pollution. Not to mention, lower quality of life for those that can't drive for whatever reason.

(06 Nov 2017, 8:30 pm)Tamesider wrote Not really relevant to de-regulated Britain, though.

Lost me with that one.

(06 Nov 2017, 8:56 pm)Tamesider wrote Only just come across this thread, and those rail fares are cheap even by GM standards. I also live where there is an element of competition, on a section of route of about 4 miles into Manchester Piccadilly:

(Return) Rail fare  is £4.70 peak; £3.60 off-peak. This of course, includes both Rail and Metrolink across the city centre. Off-peak seems to be based on a 0930 arrival time in Manchester, not departure time from originating station. The service runs approx every 30 minutes off-peak, with up to 5 trains an hour on a very haphazard peak timetable. Journey time is between 8 and 14 minutes dependant on how many stops. Punctuality varies, but at present is poor. Trains are Class 142 & 150, with the occasional 156. Loadings are heavy and increasing dramatically. Its an ATN franchise. This seems to be mainly due to additional employment and/or transferring from buses, as it has not halted the continuing growth in traffic congestion.

Bus Fare is £4.30 (eff. flat fare for any return journey above 1.5 miles in most of GM). The service runs every 10 mins off-peak (slightly less in the morning peak). Journey time is between 24 and 30 minutes. Punctuality is poor between 0830 & 1100, but reasonable at other times. Sat/Sun morning punctuality was also poor until last weekend, but Stagecoach have finally addressed this, 33 months after parrallel services were slashed which exacerbated already tight running times. Around 90% of buses are Euro6 E400 MMCs.

Today was a classic example of transport problems: Trains were disrupted more than usual, due to a signal failure further down the line - the second consecutive Monday this has happened! The problem was fixed later in the morning, but trains were still running late this evening. Due to this morning's problems, I caught the bus - which was slightly late for the first mile or so, and then hit solid traffic. A 10+ minute delay due to an accident was exacerbated by GMP deciding two bus loads of passengers would be the ideal candidates to be further delayed, whilst they spent four minutes manouevering the low-loader with the damaged car away. Of course, it wasn't just us further inconvenienced, our driver was coming off onto his mealbreak just 5 minutes down the road, so his further delay would have a knock on effect to the passengers on his second half of his duty, as well as the outbound passengers on the bus' next journey.

Getting back to the point, and this might not apply in the case of Chester-le-Street, but  round here, any further increase in rail passengers/services would not only bring about more capacity issues (and tax spending to solve/satisfy them), but also reduce the viability of competing buses. That in turn must result in increased car ownership and ergo increased congestion/pollution. Not to mention, lower quality of life for those that can't drive for whatever reason.

Chester le Street is a funny place (not just because of its transport quirks!).

As far as public transport goes, bus is king. Despite it being the hub for 'Northern' services for too many years and also in the past, somewhere where independents plied their trade, rail hasnt really taken off.
Despite it being located on the ECML.

The station is privately owned (search: Chester le Track) and for a long time, was neglected and not used.
Chester le Track came along (fronted by an ex Northern employee) and has turned the station around slowly.

XC did stop there for a period until until fairly recently, but now we just see TPX call every two hours. Along with one Northern train per day.
I'm not sure without checking if the Northern Connect services will be stopping there.
Pathing is an issue, but if demand outside commuter peaks is there, maybe something needs to be done?

Bus services in and out of Chester le Street has been consolidated over the years, with direct destinations reduced/axed in some cases.
In the past, you could get to some weird and wonderful places.

(06 Nov 2017, 9:19 pm)Andreos1 wrote Lost me with that one.

> Fares are dictated by Operators, not LAs/Elected Mayors. This MAY change with Bus Reform in such as GM, but concepts such as 59 minute (or longer) connections for free would seem a step too far. One problem we have is that existing Operators charge wildly different fares for identical distance journeys, so if they won't standardise fares by what used to be "stages", I can't see anything more innovative being considered.

I see where you are coming from now.

Here in T&W we have the transfare.
It's been around for years and hasn't really changed. I remember getting them as a kid pre-86.
https://www.nexus.org.uk/adult-transfare

Obviously there are operator day tickets too.

Neither really work, for short trips that inevitably involve a change of bus.

Until operators move (or are forced to move) away from their own zonal ticketing and onto a Network One (but affordable) type of ticket not much will change.

GNE are far more interested in flogging you a buzzfare than encourage any interworking but North Tyneside smart zone shows it’s affordable

(06 Nov 2017, 10:08 pm)Ambassador wrote Until operators move (or are forced to move) away from their own zonal ticketing and onto a Network One (but affordable) type of ticket not much will change.

GNE are far more interested in flogging you a buzzfare than encourage any interworking but North Tyneside smart zone shows it’s affordable

In some cases, a ticket like a transfer is a no brainer.
Going to or from the airport with cases on the bus and metro might be a pain, but it's excellent value.

The Network One ticket is (in my opinion), the only ticket to get for regular travel in T&W.
The flexibility and price, compared to an operators ticket, is fantastic.

I think the smartzone tickets are too restrictive.

(06 Nov 2017, 10:08 pm)Ambassador wrote Until operators move (or are forced to move) away from their own zonal ticketing and onto a Network One (but affordable) type of ticket not much will change.

GNE are far more interested in flogging you a buzzfare than encourage any interworking but North Tyneside smart zone shows it’s affordable

Yep, you're quite right, but who can blame them in the market they're in? If they can have 100% of the profit a ticket generates vs a share, then they're going to go for 100% each time. It will take force imo, because it won't be voluntary. 

SmartZone seems popular, but very selective in terms of where it operates. You'd be stuck to a city or local authority area (or part thereof), rather than offering a modular option to add/remove zones.

(06 Nov 2017, 8:56 pm)Tamesider wrote Only just come across this thread, and those rail fares are cheap even by GM standards. I also live where there is an element of competition, on a section of route of about 4 miles into Manchester Piccadilly:

(Return) Rail fare  is £4.70 peak; £3.60 off-peak. This of course, includes both Rail and Metrolink across the city centre. Off-peak seems to be based on a 0930 arrival time in Manchester, not departure time from originating station. The service runs approx every 30 minutes off-peak, with up to 5 trains an hour on a very haphazard peak timetable. Journey time is between 8 and 14 minutes dependant on how many stops. Punctuality varies, but at present is poor. Trains are Class 142 & 150, with the occasional 156. Loadings are heavy and increasing dramatically. Its an ATN franchise. This seems to be mainly due to additional employment and/or transferring from buses, as it has not halted the continuing growth in traffic congestion.

Just to put some stats on this; Excluding the two Signal failures and previous Strike - next one is tomorrow, of course - my morning journey is *averaging* 6.25 minutes late arriving in M'cr. The whole journey is scheduled as 30 mins, btw. My usual evening train is more punctual than those either side it in terms of Piccadilly departures, but tonight was typical in that an on time departure translated into 4 minutes late at my home Station - not good for a journey scheduled as just 11 minutes. I also forgot to menton that since I've been catching this journey regularly, it has been reduced from 4-cars to 2, albeit it doesn't overload to the extent of the one in front which has always been 2-car despite being flagged by TFGM as dangerously overloaded.

Yet another article/report complaining about the high fares public transport users are facing.

This article focuses on the needs of SEND learners struggling to access FE.

https://feweek.co.uk/2017/12/08/special-...ve-better/

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/christmas/24hourticket/

It's a start I suppose!

Now for 24hr multi-trip tickets... The types that work really well with that much talked about 'hub & spoke' model.

No point buying a ticket on December 24th considering you have only 24 hours to active the Return ticket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was reading recently on a Facebook post that Go North East have discontinued their Newcastle - Metrocentre day and week tickets following low sales. Firstly I think this is a very poor excuse to discontinue a ticket but it has got me thinking about a wider issue at Go North East.

Up until sometime last year all tickets (route and area savers) could be easily viewed on the website and bought on the app. Now the only tickets of this type still able to look up on the website and buy on the app are the North Tyne Saver and Sunderland Saver, both of these being sold in areas with competition. Other tickets such as The Angel Saver, Washington Saver etc are now only able to be bought from the driver and I have searched the website and found no evidence that these tickets are on sale. It is therefore possible that a passenger is buying a more expensive ticket than they need for their journey. Could this lack of information be the reason for the low sales mentioned above? and if so could a drop in sales see more of these better value tickets discontinued?

(04 Jan 2018, 7:27 pm)Pulsar wrote I was reading recently on a Facebook post that Go North East have discontinued their Newcastle - Metrocentre day and week tickets following low sales. Firstly I think this is a very poor excuse to discontinue a ticket but it has got me thinking about a wider issue at Go North East.

Up until sometime last year all tickets (route and area savers) could be easily viewed on the website and bought on the app. Now the only tickets of this type still able to look up on the website and buy on the app are the North Tyne Saver and Sunderland Saver, both of these being sold in areas with competition. Other tickets such as The Angel Saver, Washington Saver etc are now only able to be bought from the driver and I have searched the website and found no evidence that these tickets are on sale. It is therefore possible that a passenger is buying a more expensive ticket than they need for their journey. Could this lack of information be the reason for the low sales mentioned above? and if so could a drop in sales see more of these better value tickets discontinued?

The Washington Day Saver hasn't been listed on the website for months and months now, and I can't see any details of it being promoted anywhere. It is of course still available to purchase from the driver. Given we're in the digital age, you have to wonder why this information isn't readily available online? I do hope it is just an oversight.

In a Facebook post, Laura Pidcock MP had noted a number of her constituents had contacted her regarding the withdrawal of Consett Day Saver from the 2nd January. There are no details of how long that notice had been on tickets though.

(04 Jan 2018, 8:33 pm)Adrian wrote The Washington Day Saver hasn't been listed on the website for months and months now, and I can't see any details of it being promoted anywhere. It is of course still available to purchase from the driver. Given we're in the digital age, you have to wonder why this information isn't readily available online? I do hope it is just an oversight.

In a Facebook post, Laura Pidcock MP had noted a number of her constituents had contacted her regarding the withdrawal of Consett Day Saver from the 2nd January. There are no details of how long that notice had been on tickets though.

I don't get it.
Why would a product like that, be 'withdrawn due to poor sales'?
The administrative costs will be negligible.

If the product isnt selling, then find out why it isnt selling.

If passengers are unaware of the product, then make them aware of the product.

Bizarre.

(04 Jan 2018, 9:16 pm)Andreos1 wrote I don't get it.
Why would a product like that, be 'withdrawn due to poor sales'?
The administrative costs will be negligible.

If the product isnt selling, then find out why it isnt selling.

If passengers are unaware of the product, then make them aware of the product.

Bizarre.

Yep, they also withdrew the Wear Xpress Saver, and Peterlee Saver too on the same day (might have been more), wasn't too much said about that too.

(04 Jan 2018, 10:05 pm)deanmachine wrote Yep, they also withdrew the Wear Xpress Saver, and Peterlee Saver too on the same day (might have been more), wasn't too much said about that too.

I bet the difference in price is quite significant for some.
Particularly if buying 2/3 times a week.

Just had a neb on the fb page and there is some discussion/unhappy comments about the Consett ticket and Metrocentre ticket.
Someone has asked the question regarding the Xpress ticket, but there hasn't been a response as of yet.

MP's, Councillors and the press involved by the looks of things.

I intended to keep quiet on this one until users had the opportunity to have a bit more of a debate, but it seems to have quite quickly died down, so I'll give my thoughts...

Bus operators are seeing patronage and usage go down. There are a small number of exceptions, and this mainly applies to services which have seen significant investment by the operator (either new or refurbished vehicles). There are a number of reasons for this, but one in my opinion, is that travelling by bus is not simple.

I have just had a quick look on Arriva's website, and in total there are 49 Route Savers available for me to buy on-bus. A number of these are very similarly named: to give an example, there's a Durham City ticket, a Durham County ticket, a Durham District ticket, a Durham UNI City ticket, and a Durham UNI City +NCL ticket. Without clicking on each one of these tickets individually to see the zone map, I would not know the difference between all of them. With so many tickets available, it's difficult to tell which one offers the best value to me, as someone who presumably does not travel by bus that often (if I did, I'd be buying a more longer-term ticket offering travel for a week, month or year). As well as this, discounts may be available to me if I'm Under 16, Under 18, a student at college or University, etc.

In my opinion; operators need to be working towards making their ticketing structure simpler and easier to understand, which may encourage the occasional customer to travel by bus more regularly. If this means rationalising the amount of tickets which are available for customers to buy, this may be a better long-term strategy to see growth (which could then see tickets frozen in price or even reduced, rather than constantly being increased on an almost annual basis). With the technology available to operators these days; customers should be able to plan their journeys online or on a mobile app, being offered the ticket which offers the best value to cover that person's journey.

To make this post more relevant to the original point of discussion regarding Go North East's withdrawal of several Route Savers across the region - whilst some customers will lose out, others will actually see better value for money. Perhaps this message hasn't been communicated to customers as well as it could have been, as certainly not every customer will need to buy a one-zone BuzzFare to complete their journey. These RouteSavers were historically introduced to provide a cheaper alternative for customers only making a return journey, whilst also benefiting those who previously had to buy a BuzzFare day ticket. Go North East's fare structure has changed since then, and return tickets are now available to buy on every service (at the same price, or even cheaper, than the equivalent Route Saver). The ticket machines Go North East introduced 6-7 months ago provide the company with a lot more data on passenger trends and use, thanks to the QR codes on the tickets. Notably; a message was added to the bottom of each Route Saver ticket in the lead up to the ticket's withdrawal, not only advising of the withdrawal of the ticket, but telling passengers if they only "travel there and back", then they can buy a return ticket instead. Perhaps Go North East's more detailed ticket data/analysis proves that, of the very small number of these tickets being issued, a high percentage of these tickets were only scanned once (which therefore means that the ticket has only been used as a return, or the customer has not scanned their ticket on boarding the bus, on all journeys, as they're supposed to).

I do not think the uproar on Social Media is representative of the amount of tickets which were actually being sold. I've noticed several enthusiasts commenting on Social Media about this, yet they've probably never bought one of these tickets! It won't just be enthusiasts of course. Most of the areas where these Route Savers were available were smaller communities (such as Consett and Peterlee as mentioned previously). These areas have community groups on Facebook, and as I'm in a number of them myself, I know from experience that everyone tends to club together and create a mountain out of a molehill. Of course this is the downside of Social Media, which gives everyone a platform to vent with little to no moderation.

Looks like GNE have decided to reinstate the Consett Day Saver: https://www.facebook.com/LauraPidcockMP/...25/?type=3

(20 Jan 2018, 9:51 pm)Adrian wrote Looks like GNE have decided to reinstate the Consett Day Saver: https://www.facebook.com/LauraPidcockMP/...25/?type=3

Reinstated for now,but if the sales go badly they will remove them again

(06 Jan 2018, 9:37 am)Dan wrote I have just had a quick look on Arriva's website, and in total there are 49 Route Savers available for me to buy on-bus. A number of these are very similarly named: to give an example, there's a Durham City ticket, a Durham County ticket, a Durham District ticket, a Durham UNI City ticket, and a Durham UNI City +NCL ticket. Without clicking on each one of these tickets individually to see the zone map, I would not know the difference between all of them. With so many tickets available, it's difficult to tell which one offers the best value to me, as someone who presumably does not travel by bus that often (if I did, I'd be buying a more longer-term ticket offering travel for a week, month or year). As well as this, discounts may be available to me if I'm Under 16, Under 18, a student at college or University, etc.

I'm sorry, but out of those 5, the only two I'd struggle to differentiate would be the Durham County and District, and that's likely only because I don't really know the Durham area. Checking the map online would quickly tell me. If you cant differentiate between the UNI City and UNI City +Newcastle ticket then there's really not much hope is there?

Similarly, if you think for a second about the area which ANE cover, there's always going to be a lot of options available. Most of which are more suitable and logical than Go North East's Buzzfare options.

(20 Jan 2018, 11:00 pm)mb134 wrote I'm sorry, but out of those 5, the only two I'd struggle to differentiate would be the Durham County and District, and that's likely only because I don't really know the Durham area. Checking the map online would quickly tell me. If you cant differentiate between the UNI City and UNI City +Newcastle ticket then there's really not much hope is there?

Similarly, if you think for a second about the area which ANE cover, there's always going to be a lot of options available. Most of which are more suitable and logical than Go North East's Buzzfare options.

It might see easy to differentiate but you can use the Durham District ticket on the x12 into Newcastle, so not all that obvious, after all.

But yes, the options are many and not all drivers are conversant, which is why I often still buy a £5 child day ticket for bigun rather than the £4.50 young person's Durham District because some drivers will argue the toss about the validity of the latter for a 14 year old without student id. Darlo ones seem to be the problem as all the Belmont ones are fine with it and even suggest it when I ask for the child ticket. 

If I'm travelling on a Darlo service, the 50p difference isn't worth the hassle.

(20 Jan 2018, 11:00 pm)mb134 wrote I'm sorry, but out of those 5, the only two I'd struggle to differentiate would be the Durham County and District, and that's likely only because I don't really know the Durham area. Checking the map online would quickly tell me. If you cant differentiate between the UNI City and UNI City +Newcastle ticket then there's really not much hope is there?

Similarly, if you think for a second about the area which ANE cover, there's always going to be a lot of options available. Most of which are more suitable and logical than Go North East's Buzzfare options.

(21 Jan 2018, 12:16 am)BusLoverMum wrote It might see easy to differentiate but you can use the Durham District ticket on the x12 into Newcastle, so not all that obvious, after all.

But yes, the options are many and not all drivers are conversant, which is why I often still buy a £5 child day ticket for bigun rather than the £4.50 young person's Durham District because some drivers will argue the toss about the validity of the latter for a 14 year old without student id. Darlo ones seem to be the problem as all the Belmont ones are fine with it and even suggest it when I ask for the child ticket. 

If I'm travelling on a Darlo service, the 50p difference isn't worth the hassle.

Exactly, BLM.

The ticketing structure, especially in Durham, is not simple at all. If it's not simple for customers, it's not going to be that easy for drivers to remember every ticket option either, and which one offers the customer the best value for money.

I had an issue for a long time, some years ago, attempting to travel on Arriva Durham's services into Sunderland. Very few drivers knew what the Nexus CAT day ticket was, and often denied me travel on their services (despite it being valid for travel). Reported to Customer Services many times, and never improved. I've no idea what the state of play is now, but even my Staff Pass these days is often thought to be invalid, so I'd suggest probably isn't much better...

Going back to my original post, it shouldn't be that there's "no hope" for customers who infrequently travel by bus, who may be confused by the various options available to them. The ticketing structure should be simple enough to allow ease of travel, with little prior research for these customers.

Years ago, GNE had what I thought was a pretty simple ticketing system. There was a regionwide ticket, T&W ticket and a couple of Town & City tickets. Maybe a couple of others, but all along those styles.

They changed it all, introduced coloured zones with obscure boundaries (and huge fare increases for some) and many more ticket types and then introduced a 30 odd page booklet to let passengers know about the huge array of ticketing options.
Confusing?

The new ticket machines give GNE the option of analysing ticket trends and travel patterns too. Something that I thought was a lacking in the past.
The patter about lack of sales following this analysis is something I have touched on recently and is something I think is flawed.
GNE aren't manufacturing a product, aren't incurring costs when buying raw ingredients and aren't paying staff to assemble it on a production line in a manufacturing plant they have a mortgage on.
They aren't then seeing those manufactured products standing on a shelf.
However, the withdrawal of the tickets has seen some passengers face yet another January fare increase. Except this one is a little more subtle and discreet...

Despite the vast (but rapidly reducing options for passengers), GNE still don't offer ticket types or travel opportunities that meet my needs.
I want a 24 hour ticket - which would save me money and could also encourage me to travel more.
They still force me to buy an expensive day ticket when travelling - due to the streamlining of services and a business plan that seems to have a huge reliance on the hub and spoke model.
I can't be the only one who would see the benefits and advantages of a 24 hour ticket nor reintroduction of direct services (and cheaper return tickets) surely?

If ticketing options are too vast or too confusing, then maybe looking at the way services operate is one way to fix it?
Getting rid of tickets that are financially attractive to some, is one model that I can't see working when looking to grow and develop usage. It goes back to the elasticity of passengers and I am guessing some will vote with their bums.

Just to throw in some balance and ensure this isn't seen to be an anti-GNE rant (it's not by the way), I recently had issues with ANE.
Again, for all the options they have and apparent confusion passengers and drivers face - when travelling with them recently and needing a return trip on one service.
There wasn't a day ticket that met my specific needs.
There was the option of one day ticket which covered a vast area (of which I had very little need to travel in a big portion of) and cost a lot more than I needed to or wanted to pay. The other option was 4 return tickets (Mrs C and the little Constantopolous's were all with me).

Where do you draw the line? I want options that aren't available and operators withdraw options that are available.
I understand ot is impossible to meet the demands and needs of all passengers.
I understand it is perceived to be confusing when a number of options are presented.
I see that it iss perceived as flawed, greedy and perhaps yet another example of operators showing a lack of understanding of passenger needs, when ticket options are reduced.

(21 Jan 2018, 12:16 am)BusLoverMum wrote It might see easy to differentiate but you can use the Durham District ticket on the x12 into Newcastle, so not all that obvious, after all.

But yes, the options are many and not all drivers are conversant, which is why I often still buy a £5 child day ticket for bigun rather than the £4.50 young person's Durham District because some drivers will argue the toss about the validity of the latter for a 14 year old without student id. Darlo ones seem to be the problem as all the Belmont ones are fine with it and even suggest it when I ask for the child ticket. 

If I'm travelling on a Darlo service, the 50p difference isn't worth the hassle.

Hence why I made the point that if I wasn't too sure what it included, I'd check on the map (or ask the driver...)

---

(21 Jan 2018, 10:21 am)Andreos1 wrote Where do you draw the line? I want options that aren't available and operators withdraw options that are available.
I understand ot is impossible to meet the demands and needs of all passengers.
I understand it is perceived to be confusing when a number of options are presented.
I see that it iss perceived as flawed, greedy and perhaps yet another example of operators showing a lack of understanding of passenger needs, when ticket options are reduced.

I'd say this is probably what has led to Arriva having a vast amount of options available, which in my opinion is the best way to go about it, as long as drivers are adequately knowledgeable about the tickets they may be selling on their route. There is absolutely no cost to Arriva to have a low-selling ticket on their system, and if it is very good value for money, they could even spot that and try to promote it more. Don't then withdraw the ticket because it isn't sold that often. As we've seen with the Consett example, all it does is create bad press for the company (which, incidentally, could cost them money)

(21 Jan 2018, 10:21 am)Andreos1 wrote Years ago, GNE had what I thought was a pretty simple ticketing system. There was a regionwide ticket, T&W ticket and a couple of Town & City tickets. Maybe a couple of others, but all along those styles.

They changed it all, introduced coloured zones with obscure boundaries (and huge fare increases for some) and many more ticket types and then introduced a 30 odd page booklet to let passengers know about the huge array of ticketing options.
Confusing?

The new ticket machines give GNE the option of analysing ticket trends and travel patterns too. Something that I thought was a lacking in the past.
The patter about lack of sales following this analysis is something I have touched on recently and is something I think is flawed.
GNE aren't manufacturing a product, aren't incurring costs when buying raw ingredients and aren't paying staff to assemble it on a production line in a manufacturing plant they have a mortgage on.
They aren't then seeing those manufactured products standing on a shelf.
However, the withdrawal of the tickets has seen some passengers face yet another January fare increase. Except this one is a little more subtle and discreet...

Despite the vast (but rapidly reducing options for passengers), GNE still don't offer ticket types or travel opportunities that meet my needs.
I want a 24 hour ticket - which would save me money and could also encourage me to travel more.
They still force me to buy an expensive day ticket when travelling - due to the streamlining of services and a business plan that seems to have a huge reliance on the hub and spoke model.
I can't be the only one who would see the benefits and advantages of a 24 hour ticket nor reintroduction of direct services (and cheaper return tickets) surely?

If ticketing options are too vast or too confusing, then maybe looking at the way services operate is one way to fix it?
Getting rid of tickets that are financially attractive to some, is one model that I can't see working when looking to grow and develop usage. It goes back to the elasticity of passengers and I am guessing some will vote with their bums.

Just to throw in some balance and ensure this isn't seen to be an anti-GNE rant (it's not by the way), I recently had issues with ANE.
Again, for all the options they have and apparent confusion passengers and drivers face - when travelling with them recently and needing a return trip on one service.
There wasn't a day ticket that met my specific needs.
There was the option of one day ticket which covered a vast area (of which I had very little need to travel in a big portion of) and cost a lot more than I needed to or wanted to pay. The other option was 4 return tickets (Mrs C and the little Constantopolous's were all with me).

Where do you draw the line? I want options that aren't available and operators withdraw options that are available.
I understand ot is impossible to meet the demands and needs of all passengers.
I understand it is perceived to be confusing when a number of options are presented.
I see that it iss perceived as flawed, greedy and perhaps yet another example of operators showing a lack of understanding of passenger needs, when ticket options are reduced.

Good post. 

I agree - the old 'Go n Save' tickets made things as simple as can be, and it was a mistake to ditch them in favour of the illogical Buzzfare boundaries. Everybody seemed to know what they'd need with the old ticketing options - either a Tyne and Wear, Three Cities (T&W+Co. Durham) or Regionwide ticket. There was no real dispute about where the boundaries lay. Buzzfare came in and it divided the Tyne and Wear ticket into three zones - including a boundary for some of those commuting from Gateshead to Newcastle, and more bizarrely, a boundary between Shiney Row and Washington Galleries. That of course only tells half a story, because it is without the multiple route savers, town savers and so on.

I've long called for a 24 hour ticket, as oppose to having 'day' tickets. It doesn't seem right that you're charged the same price for a day ticket at 6pm, as you would be at 6am. Despite having some 12 hours extra use out of it. The same goes for Sunday and bank holiday; why should you pay the same price for your day ticket on either of those days, when you have about 1/3 of the normal service operating? You wouldn't pay the price for a pint for a 1/3 in a pub... you'd pay for a third. So why should public transport be any different?

I quite like the idea of evening fares too, and I'd like to think that they'd support the viability of more frequent buses on an evening. Arriva run a '5 for a Fiver' fare in Durham City after 7pm, which is bound to be cheaper than a taxi in all cases.

Overall, I would like to see a lot more integrated working between the major operators in the North East. It is quite clear that they are reluctant to compete with each other route by route, and I think we've seen since deregulation, that it provides little benefit for the passengers when they do. So why not take advantage of the Buses Bill, and have some proper integrated multi bus operator ticketing instead? Cut Nexus and the Metro out, and have a decent product that offers good value for money to everyone... we might actually get somewhat closer to the pipe-dream of an 'Oyster card for the North'...

(21 Jan 2018, 5:45 pm)Adrian wrote I've long called for a 24 hour ticket, as oppose to having 'day' tickets. It doesn't seem right that you're charged the same price for a day ticket at 6pm, as you would be at 6am. Despite having some 12 hours extra use out of it. The same goes for Sunday and bank holiday; why should you pay the same price for your day ticket on either of those days, when you have about 1/3 of the normal service operating? You wouldn't pay the price for a pint for a 1/3 in a pub... you'd pay for a third. So why should public transport be any different?

I quite like the idea of evening fares too, and I'd like to think that they'd support the viability of more frequent buses on an evening. Arriva run a '5 for a Fiver' fare in Durham City after 7pm, which is bound to be cheaper than a taxi in all cases.

Overall, I would like to see a lot more integrated working between the major operators in the North East. It is quite clear that they are reluctant to compete with each other route by route, and I think we've seen since deregulation, that it provides little benefit for the passengers when they do. So why not take advantage of the Buses Bill, and have some proper integrated multi bus operator ticketing instead? Cut Nexus and the Metro out, and have a decent product that offers good value for money to everyone... we might actually get somewhat closer to the pipe-dream of an 'Oyster card for the North'...

I know First up here offer "Evening Tickets", which are £3 after 19:00. If you take into account a single into town is £2.50, that's a decent offer. I'm definitely of the opinion that if bus companies in university cities targeted students more than it seems they do, more would begin to use the bus to travel into the city centre for nights out, etc. This would, in theory, lead to the demand for a more frequent service, which everyone would benefit from. 

I think the Explorer is something that can definitely be built upon if used and advertised properly. Although, I think there potentially needs to be something in place to see fares from that ticket be weighted more in terms of which services they're used on.