(21 Nov 2019, 1:42 pm)Venturego wrote Labour's manifesto has been published. With regards to buses, Chris Mason (BBC political correspondent) has commented on their news website:
"Here's something from page 19: Nationalising bus services. The party promises that where councils take over running local buses, under-25s will travel for free:

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads...o-2019.pdf

Labour will ensure that councils can improve bus
services by regulating and taking public ownership
of bus networks, and we will give them resources
and full legal powers to achieve this cost-effectively,
thereby ending the race to the bottom in working
conditions for bus workers. Where councils take control
of their buses, Labour will introduce free bus travel for
under-25s. We will increase and expand local services,
TRANSPORT
20 IT’S TIME FOR REAL CHANGE
reinstating the 3,000 routes that have
been cut, particularly hitting rural
communities.

Yeah... course they will!

If GNE was nationalised, do you think they'd be getting the high spec buses they have been or do you think they'd just get the bargain basement spec?
Where would all the money for this come from? Even more borrowing? Even higher taxes?
There's no such thing as free

(21 Nov 2019, 2:23 pm)ryan.c.lawrence.5 wrote Went to the launch today at The Louisa Centre and wasn't bad , done the wheel of fortune and won a weeks free pass & my girlfriend also won a days pass so all being well today

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

When do the free passes (1, 7 and 28 days) have to be used by? Are they only available on the GNE app?

(21 Nov 2019, 4:10 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote When do the free passes (1, 7 and 28 days) have to be used by? Are they only available on the GNE app?

3 months from the date of issue. And yes, only on the app

(21 Nov 2019, 3:23 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yeah... course they will!

If GNE was nationalised, do you think they'd be getting the high spec buses they have been or do you think they'd just get the bargain basement spec?
Where would all the money for this come from? Even more borrowing? Even higher taxes?
There's no such thing as free

Got to agree with you there Streetdeckfan. Last time i was in Edinburgh,the buses were that old..... some had step access, and they had a conductor who gave you tickets, you could smoke upstairs and to top it of all the adverts were preaching the virtues of communism...... bloody council run bus companies!

(21 Nov 2019, 4:15 pm)streetdeckfan wrote 3 months from the date of issue. And yes, only on the app

So the date of issue would be today? Then it needs to be activated on the app within 3 months and will then be valid for 28 days? If you win two, they both need activating within 3 months but at least 28 days apart? Thanks.

(21 Nov 2019, 3:23 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yeah... course they will!

If GNE was nationalised, do you think they'd be getting the high spec buses they have been or do you think they'd just get the bargain basement spec?
Where would all the money for this come from? Even more borrowing? Even higher taxes?
There's no such thing as free

Another reason I can't stand him, he's probably only introducing that because a driver shut the doors and drove off

But private businesses drive efficiency and pull in investment. Government sectors do not have the same drive as they can just throw money at it. The same with the NHS, they keeping saying they need £X billion more a year, however if it was efficient as it could be, it wouldnt need shoring up with further billions.

(21 Nov 2019, 4:22 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote So the date of issue would be today? Then it needs to be activated on the app within 3 months and will then be valid for 28 days? If you win two, they both need activating within 3 months but at least 28 days apart? Thanks.

It took about a week for them to issue my ticket as they just put your details into a spreadsheet to do them all at once, so I'd imagine they'll issue the ticket next week once all three events have completed. Say you got sent the ticket next Monday, you would have to activate it by the 25th February. If it was a 28 day ticket and you activated it on the 25th, it would then expire 24th March.
If you won 2 x 28 day tickets, to make use of them both, one would have to be activated by 28th January, and the other by 25th February (assuming my maths is correct!)

(21 Nov 2019, 3:23 pm)streetdeckfan wrote "Yeah... course they will!

If GNE was nationalised, do you think they'd be getting the high spec buses they have been or do you think they'd just get the bargain basement spec?
Where would all the money for this come from? Even more borrowing? Even higher taxes?
There's no such thing as free"

I don't think full Nationalisation (like the National Bus Co. of the 70's early 80's) is being suggested. More likely where local authorities wish to operate or control services within their area, such as Nexus operating Bus & Metro like the old Corporations / PTEs ran Buses & trams within city limits. GNE would likely do well feeding services into such areas. Within the areas controlled by local authorities they would observe fares etc... as laid down to improve public service connectivity. Extending Nexus fare zones into Co. Durham and South Northumberland could benefit GNE via more passengers linking into an Oyster style multi modal zone.
Stagecoach would be the main operator adversely affected, as the majority of their services, being the former Newcastle, Sunderland, S. Shields Corporation (T&W PTE) are within the areas here in the North East and other city areas presumably targeted. 

(21 Nov 2019, 4:27 pm)JP6004 wrote Another reason I can't stand him, he's probably only introducing that because a driver shut the doors and drove off

But private businesses drive efficiency and pull in investment. Government sectors do not have the same drive as they can just throw money at it. The same with the NHS, they keeping saying they need £X billion more a year, however if it was efficient as it could be, it wouldnt need shoring up with further billions.

Not to turn this into a political rant, but I wouldn't hate Labour so much if it wasn't for Corbyn! Like with all Labour policies, they're good in theory, but once you start digging into the finances it all falls apart!
It's funny how out of all my 'friends', the ones who aren't staunch Labour supporters are the ones who studied business or accounting!

To be honest, if the NHS was fully privatised it would probably be a heck of a lot better than it is now, but then we'd be in a situation like the USA! I'd take waiting a few hours in A&E, or a few days to see a GP over having to pay their extortionate rates! Plus, any time anyone brings up the Conservatives privatising the NHS, all I say back to them is look up PFI hospitals like Bishop Auckland!

Plus, I'm fairy certain 'taking public ownership of bus networks' is full nationalisation!

9077 has returned to Go North East and is on X9 X10 today.

" 'taking public ownership of bus networks' is full nationalisation!"

Post above suggests more like a return to PTEs replacing Stagecoach mainly in our area. (posting may have crossed with other posts hence you may not have read fully)

However!:
Arriva is owned by Deutche Bahn, which in turn is owned 100% by Federal Republic of Germany, the irony being UK bus and train passengers of Arriva are contributing the profits to the government of Germany! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn

€570m income from a €5.35Billion revenue to Germany's Federal Government (2017) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva

(21 Nov 2019, 5:49 pm)Venturego wrote " 'taking public ownership of bus networks' is full nationalisation!"

Post above suggests more like a return to PTEs replacing Stagecoach mainly in our area. (posting may have crossed with other posts hence you may not have read fully)

However!:
Arriva is owned by Deutche Bahn, which in turn is owned 100% by Federal Republic of Germany, the irony being UK bus and train passengers of Arriva are contributing the profits to the government of Germany! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn

€570m income from a €5.35Billion revenue to Germany's Federal Government (2017) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriva

I did read it fully, the way I read it is that the bus companies would be nationalised, with them being run by the likes of Nexus. Now granted it looks like it would be at the discretion of the local authority, but which LA isn't going to take up offer of buckets of money to do it?

That's one of the main reasons I hate having to travel Arriva! That and the fact that the passenger experience is awful (drivers that barely speak English and can barely drive, the maintainance of the buses)
If Arriva is what nationalised bus services are like, I'd happily pay my £95 a month to Go North East (which is probably less than the tax increase to fund the nationalisation would be!)

Would I like free travel? Of course! But like I said, nothing is free.
Plus, when you actually do the maths,
For the Under 25s which Labour seem to be targeting, a monthly pass for GNE is £68. While from the outside £68 a month to use the bus seems steep, that works out as about £2.70 a day, or just over £3 a day if you only count weekdays. Now assuming someone travels to work and back, that's £1.50 each way, if they take 2 buses, that's 75p per 'ticket'. If they use the bus on the weekend, or take other trips, it's even cheaper!
I don't know about you, but that seems fairly affordable to me!

Would I want a Labour government to save that much money? Hell no!

Like I said, on the surface Labour's plans seem great, but are they really?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

I thought it was annoying when the odd Angel 21 repeats itself, however hearing 'This is the Cobalt & Coast three-O-nine service to [Bylth]' twice at each stop must be even more annoying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_2GXqqt2c

(21 Nov 2019, 4:38 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Not to turn this into a political rant, but I wouldn't hate Labour so much if it wasn't for Corbyn! Like with all Labour policies, they're good in theory, but once you start digging into the finances it all falls apart!
It's funny how out of all my 'friends', the ones who aren't staunch Labour supporters are the ones who studied business or accounting!

To be honest, if the NHS was fully privatised it would probably be a heck of a lot better than it is now, but then we'd be in a situation like the USA! I'd take waiting a few hours in A&E, or a few days to see a GP over having to pay their extortionate rates! Plus, any time anyone brings up the Conservatives privatising the NHS, all I say back to them is look up PFI hospitals like Bishop Auckland!

Plus, I'm fairy certain 'taking public ownership of bus networks' is full nationalisation!

Have your 'friends' who studied business or accounting worked out how much they're currently subsidising these private operators through their tax contributions?
Whether it be though PTE subsidies or the BSOG (and other) uplifts or support towards apps, ticket machines, WiFi which the operators are receiving, they're paying for the service whether they use it or not. 
If they do use the service, then in effect they're paying twice. 
That ticket you mention suddenly doesn't look at attractive does it? 

I've no idea how and why you think that an alternative wouldn't have any of the touches you mention either. 
Why wouldn't they?

(21 Nov 2019, 7:58 pm)Andreos1 wrote Have your 'friends' who studied business or accounting worked out how much they're currently subsidising these private operators through their tax contributions?
Whether it be though PTE subsidies or the BSOG (and other) uplifts or support towards apps, ticket machines, WiFi which the operators are receiving, they're paying for the service whether they use it or not. 
If they do use the service, then in effect they're paying twice. 
That ticket you mention suddenly doesn't look at attractive does it? 

I've no idea how and why you think that an alternative wouldn't have any of the touches you mention either. 
Why wouldn't they?

Government services operate differently to private.

Private companies try be as efficient as possible, government operations like NHS, HMRC and its call centres are so badly managed and far far inefficient. Throwing money at problems wont make them better; an understanding of how to operate a successful business and operate efficient streamlined services is key. Once you start to move the company in that direction, then you can look at starting to invest and improve

I can see if councils or nexus took over, that the continual improvement and step change in service offerings would suffer. Nexus are already suffering financially with possible cuts to metro services in 2021. Imagine if they held the keys to regions buses!

(21 Nov 2019, 7:58 pm)Andreos1 wrote Have your 'friends' who studied business or accounting worked out how much they're currently subsidising these private operators through their tax contributions?
Whether it be though PTE subsidies or the BSOG (and other) uplifts or support towards apps, ticket machines, WiFi which the operators are receiving, they're paying for the service whether they use it or not. 
If they do use the service, then in effect they're paying twice. 
That ticket you mention suddenly doesn't look at attractive does it? 

I've no idea how and why you think that an alternative wouldn't have any of the touches you mention either. 
Why wouldn't they?

Considering these subsidies/grants you mention are considerably less than the operating cost of a bus company, they're paying considerably less through their tax contributions than if it were nationalised.

Now granted if it were nationalised the profits would then go back to the government rather than to the shareholders, reducing the affect those subsidies have overall, but then you have to consider the fact that there would be no more income from any passengers under the age of 25 which would drastically reduce turnover. 

If you look at most of the routes that have the high spec buses (21, X21, 309/310, X9/X10), what is one thing they all have in common? Competition
If the bus companies were nationalised, do you honestly believe that they would spend the extra to buy high spec buses because I don't! The reason these routes have high spec buses is to try and 'steal' passengers from competing services, and why would they do that when all services are run by the same 'company'?

(21 Nov 2019, 7:53 pm)ne14ne1 wrote I thought it was annoying when the odd Angel 21 repeats itself, however hearing 'This is the Cobalt & Coast three-O-nine service to [Bylth]' twice at each stop must be even more annoying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix_2GXqqt2c

It is extremely annoying I was there as it is my video (thank you for watching and sharing btw) also I think a few others have that but too. On 6104/12 have a fault where the stop sign stays lit

(21 Nov 2019, 8:20 pm)GNE6312 wrote It is extremely annoying I was there as it is my video (thank you for watching and sharing btw) also I think a few others have that but too. On 6104/12 have a fault where the stop sign stays lit

They had that issue a few times on the X21 back in the day when it actually had NSAs, if it had stopped at every stop, I would have heard 'This is the Castles Express X21 Service to Bishop Auckland' 140 times!

Anyone know when and what route this demo will be on and when it is going to be out and how long will it be out for
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/49100410856/

(21 Nov 2019, 8:30 pm)GNE6312 wrote Anyone know when and what route this demo will be on and when it is going to be out and how long will it be out for
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/49100410856/

https://twitter.com/DanGrahamGNE/status/1197613233932316673

'Arriving at Go North East today was a @VolvoBusUK @Plaxtoncoach, here for a short stay and to be allocated to the high-profile X9/X10 services operating between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. It's a 53-seat step-free access coach, with a dedicated wheelchair bay.'

(21 Nov 2019, 8:30 pm)GNE6312 wrote Anyone know when and what route this demo will be on and when it is going to be out and how long will it be out for
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/49100410856/

X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).

(21 Nov 2019, 8:15 pm)JP6004 wrote Government services operate differently to private.

Private companies try be as efficient as possible, government operations like NHS, HMRC and its call centres are so badly managed and far far inefficient. Throwing money at problems wont make them better; an understanding of how to operate a successful business and operate efficient streamlined services is key. Once you start to move the company in that direction, then you can look at starting to invest and improve

I can see if councils or nexus took over, that the continual improvement and step change in service offerings would suffer. Nexus are already suffering financially with possible cuts to metro services in 2021. Imagine if they held the keys to regions buses!

We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient. 
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit. 

(21 Nov 2019, 8:16 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Considering these subsidies/grants you mention are considerably less than the operating cost of a bus company, they're paying considerably less through their tax contributions than if it were nationalised.

Now granted if it were nationalised the profits would then go back to the government rather than to the shareholders, reducing the affect those subsidies have overall, but then you have to consider the fact that there would be no more income from any passengers under the age of 25 which would drastically reduce turnover. 

If you look at most of the routes that have the high spec buses (21, X21, 309/310, X9/X10), what is one thing they all have in common? Competition
If the bus companies were nationalised, do you honestly believe that they would spend the extra to buy high spec buses because I don't! The reason these routes have high spec buses is to try and 'steal' passengers from competing services, and why would they do that when all services are run by the same 'company'?

Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims? 

As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.

Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today. 
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?

(21 Nov 2019, 8:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote https://twitter.com/DanGrahamGNE/status/1197613233932316673

'Arriving at Go North East today was a @VolvoBusUK @Plaxtoncoach, here for a short stay and to be allocated to the high-profile X9/X10 services operating between Newcastle and Middlesbrough. It's a 53-seat step-free access coach, with a dedicated wheelchair bay.

Will this be out on Saturday? If not this Saturday will it be out next Saturday?

(21 Nov 2019, 8:47 pm)GNE6312 wrote Will this be out on Saturday? If not this Saturday will it be out next Saturday?

Apparently early next week it'll be out

(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine wrote X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).

It's only going to be allocated off-peak and not on a Saturday, to avoid overcrowding.

(21 Nov 2019, 8:54 pm)Dan wrote It's only going to be allocated off-peak and not on a Saturday, to avoid overcrowding.

Will it be put on Sunday (This or next)

(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient. 
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit. 



Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims? 

As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.

Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today. 
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?

And do you really think it would be any better having them nationalised instead? There's only one thing that does dodgy deals more than private companies, and that's the government!

There's no point in looking back at what nationalised services were pre-86 and thinking it'll be like the 'glory days'. That's not how the real world works! Plus, you have to consider back then it wasn't just the bus companies that were nationalised, it was a lot of the automotive manufacturers as well, which meant that a lot of vehicles were being sold at BOM price, or even at a loss.

And the reason those fares were attractive was because they were subsidised. If you remember back to a quick bit of maths I did...

(01 Sep 2019, 4:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I've just done a bit of quick maths in Excel, taking into account the cost of purchasing the bus and spread it out over 15 years, the cost of the driver at £10 per hour, and the cost of fuel at £1.25 per litre. I 'calculated' the X21, 21 and X66 just to give a rough idea of both long and short routes
Obviously the numbers are VERY rough (and I'm making a lot of assumptions), and they don't include the cost of running depots, maintenance, customer service etc, but it's still quite interesting

For the X21, I came up with cost per passenger of around 95p if we assume that there's an average of 50 passengers per journey

For the 21, I got around 50p if we again assume an average of 50 passengers per journey

For the X66, I got around 10p if we assume an average of 35 passengers per journey

That was me being very conservative with the costs, and not including a lot of the costs that I couldn't find the figures for so I'd imagine the actual costs would be a lot higher. Now, if a lot of passengers are suddenly getting travel for free, that means the cost per paying passenger go up. If they don't want to do that, the money has to come from somewhere, and that will be higher taxes. 

After looking at GNE's finances, it looks like they're operating on a ~5% profit margin, so giving free transport to all under 25s would result in them making quite a hefty loss!

Like I said, I don't want to get too political, but if we assume that Labour have actually costed everything out properly (with people who actually know what numbers are), and can do it with little impact on the 'average' person, then great! But I highly doubt they have.

(21 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm)streetdeckfan wrote And do you really think it would be any better having them nationalised instead? There's only one thing that does dodgy deals more than private companies, and that's the government!

There's no point in looking back at what nationalised services were pre-86 and thinking it'll be like the 'glory days'. That's not how the real world works! Plus, you have to consider back then it wasn't just the bus companies that were nationalised, it was a lot of the automotive manufacturers as well, which meant that a lot of vehicles were being sold at BOM price, or even at a loss.

And the reason those fares were attractive was because they were subsidised. If you remember back to a quick bit of maths I did...


That was me being very conservative with the costs, and not including a lot of the costs that I couldn't find the figures for so I'd imagine the actual costs would be a lot higher. Now, if a lot of passengers are suddenly getting travel for free, that means the cost per paying passenger go up. If they don't want to do that, the money has to come from somewhere, and that will be higher taxes. 

Like I said, I don't want to get too political, but if we assume that Labour have actually costed everything out properly (with people who actually know what numbers are), and can do it with little impact on the 'average' person, then great! But I highly doubt they have.

I'm not sure anyone said it would be like the glory days. The reflection was in response to your comments regarding the spec that we see currently (that we as taxpayers are part funding anyway).

I'm sure they have done their sums to cost it out. I'm also pretty sure they will have looked at similar schemes which exist across Europe and carried out a cost benefit analysis of it too. 

The current system is broken. Its not working. Passenger numbers are falling. Something needs to be done. Let's do something radical and make travelling by bus attractive and affordable. 
Or shall we just continue with the status quo and pump a sh!T load of money at private companies, shareholders and bus lanes?

(21 Nov 2019, 9:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm not sure anyone said it would be like the glory days. The reflection was in response to your comments regarding the spec that we see currently (that we as taxpayers are part funding anyway).

I'm sure they have done their sums to cost it out. I'm also pretty sure they will have looked at similar schemes which exist across Europe and carried out a cost benefit analysis of it too. 

The current system is broken. Its not working. Passenger numbers are falling. Something needs to be done. Let's do something radical and make travelling by bus attractive and affordable. 
Or shall we just continue with the status quo and pump a sh!T load of money at private companies, shareholders and bus lanes?

I doubt it. The reason this will have been put in the manifesto is to target the 'youth' (of which I am very much the target), young people these days want everything for nothing, and it's just yet another 'free' thing that they are offering.

I agree that the system is broken, but I don't think nationalising it will help. What we need to do is stop pumping this 'sh!t load of money' into the companies, they are perfectly capable of funding it all themselves, but why would they when we offer them money to do it.
If Arriva was owned by a company that wasn't in it just to suck as much money out of it as they could, services in County Durham would be a hell of a lot better.

I believe that we need more competition in the North East, part of the reason services are so bad is because each company has their own area. I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London where each route is tendered out, but I don't think that's the right solution either.

Does the X9/X10 interwork as 9077 showed up on Bus Times on the X9 so I went to Peterlee to get a photo but it didn’t turn up so I checked it again and it was now on the X10 (still managed to miss it as it seemed to have been replaced by 5283). Just asking if they do and if they change routes at Newcastle or Middlesbrough.


Sent from my iPhone XS using Tapatalk