(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I doubt it. The reason this will have been put in the manifesto is to target the 'youth' (of which I am very much the target), young people these days want everything for nothing, and it's just yet another 'free' thing that they are offering.

I agree that the system is broken, but I don't think nationalising it will help. What we need to do is stop pumping this 'sh!t load of money' into the companies, they are perfectly capable of funding it all themselves, but why would they when we offer them money to do it.
If Arriva was owned by a company that wasn't in it just to suck as much money out of it as they could, services in County Durham would be a hell of a lot better.

I believe that we need more competition in the North East, part of the reason services are so bad is because each company has their own area. I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London where each route is tendered out, but I don't think that's the right solution either.

You doubt that costings have been looked at and comparisons made with similar schemes across Europe? Interesting... 

My eldest is also in that category. 
He passed his driving test earlier this year and is struggling to cover the costs of his insurance, fuel and maintenance. With him being young, a black box was installed limiting his mileage. 
Despite this, he is reluctant to use public transport. It doesn't suit his needs, wants or expectations. It's inconvenient. It's unreliable. It can be expensive and the comparable journey times are not competitive at all. 

He won't be the only one in that position. 
He won't be the only one essentially forced on to the road, due to the decisions made by operators up and down the land. 
The same operators who complain that the roads are clogged and that using public transport is better for the environment. 

I'd hope you can see the irony in the behaviour shown by the operators here? 
If axed routes were re-introduced, if services became more efficient and suitable for the travelling publics needs, along with free fares for under 25's, then I would guarantee there would be less cars on the roads, causing less pollution.

(21 Nov 2019, 9:55 pm)TEN 6083 wrote Does the X9/X10 interwork as 9077 showed up on Bus Times on the X9 so I went to Peterlee to get a photo but it didn’t turn up so I checked it again and it was now on the X10 (still managed to miss it as it seemed to have been replaced by 5283). Just asking if they do and if they change routes at Newcastle or Middlesbrough.


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They do at Middlesbrough, or at least they did when I worked at Riverside in the summer.

OK!- On the Labour Manifesto re. Bus Policy in our region, I believe this mainly affects Stagecoach, as they predominantly took over the PTE services formally known as the Newcastle, Sunderland & S. Shields Corporations. Northern at that time successfully operated services feeding into the  PTE/Corporation operations with their own services under the Northern, Gateshead, Sunderland District Omnibus (SDO), Tyneside,etc.. brands. Very few GNE routes would be significantly affected negatively by Labour's Bus policy. 

Negative effects of the nationalised National Bus Company came from lack of investment from the Conservative administrations, which mirrored their action on rail, due to a hell bent policy of privatisation which poured profits from public services, often monopolies within their operating areas, into the coffers of private shareholders instead of being reinvested back into the communities in which they serve.

(21 Nov 2019, 10:47 pm)Venturego wrote OK!- On the Labour Manifesto re. Bus Policy in our region, I believe this mainly affects Stagecoach, as they predominantly took over the PTE services formally known as the Newcastle, Sunderland & S. Shields Corporations. Northern at that time successfully operated services feeding into the  PTE/Corporation operations with their own services under the Northern, Gateshead, Sunderland District Omnibus (SDO), Tyneside,etc.. brands. Very few GNE routes would be significantly affected negatively by Labour's Bus policy. 

Negative effects of the nationalised National Bus Company came from lack of investment from the Conservative administrations, which mirrored their action on rail, due to a hell bent policy of privatisation which poured profits from public services, often monopolies within their operating areas, into the coffers of private shareholders instead of being reinvested back into the communities in which they serve.

If that is the case, then it would only be in those areas that travel for under 25s would be free, so under 25s in the North East would still have to pay for most services

"Where councils take control of their buses, Labour will introduce free bus travel for under-25s"

(21 Nov 2019, 8:37 pm)deanmachine wrote X9|X10 apparently, bit of a weird one as the capacity could be a bit of an issue. Wondering if they're just seeing if a tri-axle is do-able on the route (B8L or even a double deck coach?).

I remember the early days of the X9, with the B10M coach, and I found that to be a far more appropriate vehicle for that type of journey than the current vehicles used on the route. The problem with using those vehicles again today would be the capacity issues...

(21 Nov 2019, 8:54 pm)Dan wrote It's only going to be allocated off-peak and not on a Saturday, to avoid overcrowding.

... which has already been recognised by the higher-ups. So I, too, imagine that this demonstrator is being used to trial a 3-axle coach on the route, with a view to operating something like the Plaxton Panorama in future, perhaps?

(21 Nov 2019, 9:48 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't know how this could be done without having a system like London...

What, you mean whereby a Local Authority has control over services in their area?

Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.

Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:

Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.

Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.

(21 Nov 2019, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote We've had the current system since 1986. It's private and is flawed in so many ways. I'd argue they are far from efficient. 
We've seen companies go to the wall, we've seen buyouts and mergers and we've seen dodgy deals where operating areas are carved up to suit. 



Im not sure about the relevance or accuracy of the first paragraph you make.
How is this the case? What methods and data have you used to back up the claims? 

As for the competing services. Pity the poor folks who don't have competing services eh? Or have seen bus wars, cuts in service or reductions in the level of service, as theres not enough profit.

Did you ever ride the Express services pre-86? Lovely, comfy rides, with coach seating across a range of vehicles. Uprated engines that improved overall performance appeared too.
All with the aim of enticing punters. Attractive fares too. I think we discussed the variences in inflation and the price equivalent fares would be now, taking in to account inflation. Then compared them to the actual fares we see today. 
If the aim is to entice punters on to vehicles and the WiFi, apps and gimmicks actually do help in achieving this, then why would a change to the current system, see the removal of those gimmicks?



I'd love a pair of the rose tinted glasses that everyone looks back through into the pre-deregulation era!
The deregulated era, at 33 years and a month old, has actually lasted longer than the PTE and NBC era (only almost 18 years).
Passenger numbers have been falling since the early 1950s, the PTEs and NBC actually having little, if any, impact on slowing down the decline.
As one who spent 9 years working for a PTE (Greater Manchester 1977-1986) I can say that passenger numbers were falling at a faster rate than they do today, service were continually being reduced even the economies from one-man operation couldn't get the books to balance. 
Whilst the deregulated model isn't perfect, and the early years of deregulation were dreadful for passengers, many of todays bus companies are doing a good job in attracting new passengers and retaining current ones given the challenges of the current day.
You've got to remember that pre-1986 there was no Metrocentre, so people shopped locally (for which the bus is an attractive option), many people worked locally (in large factories, coal mines etc), again movements for which the bus is an attractive option; there was no Sunday shopping, or much late night opening; children generally went to their local school, they didn't travel half way across Tyne & Wear to go to school; there weren't difficult to serve out of town shopping centres or business parks (which attract people from a wide geographic area, difficult to transport by bus)

Those who are interested and "pro" re-regulation should read the 600 plus page document that TfGM currently have out to consultation - https://greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/what-we-do/transport/doing-buses-differently-consultation-on-proposed-franchising-scheme/
their franchised network has no enhanced vehicle standards, no network (service) improvements and is planned to continue losing passengers!! Oh, and above inflation fare increases every year (+1.4%). Nothing to solve congestion or restrict car use either.

(21 Nov 2019, 11:39 pm)Storx wrote Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.

Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:

Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.

Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.

I think the trouble is it's hard to have a direct route between all places, hub and spoke is far more efficient than point to point. You can get to most places in the North East with only one change, and to just about anywhere else with 2 changes. I think that's more than adequate!

But the problem with that is like I said further up, Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva all have their areas, and until there is a ticket that you can use in all areas (I know that exists within T&W, but a there's no cross-border tickets) it'll always be more expensive than taking the car.

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say there are no services for Arnison centre and Dragonville since it's fairly easy to just change buses. Assuming you want to stay within the GNE network:

Arnison Centre - From the north you can catch the 50 from CLS, from everywhere else you can catch the 14 from Durham
Dragonville - You can just change at Durham to the 204/208. If you're coming from South Shields/Sunderland, it's a fairly short walk from Durham City Retail Park, or if you're particularly lazy (like me), you can time the journey right and change to the 208 and go 2 stops.

I think one step towards making the bus network more appealing is to offer actual express services. I don't care how much GNE think it is, the X21 is not an express service. It takes 4 times longer to travel between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle as it does to take the car, and for most people that makes it unusable. 

I would gladly lose the direct link to Newcastle from Tindale if GNE would offer an actual express service between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle, calling only at Spennymoor, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshead and Newcastle. Even if it was only an hourly service, it would probably still cut the journey time enough to make it usable.
I see no reason for the X21 to go via Framwellgate Moor, that area is served more than enough by the 21, it should go express between CLS and Durham, either via the A1 or A167 depending on traffic. 

I would have loved to see the new X-lines network be a network of express routes, but the way I see it is they're just rebranding routes to make them seem faster without changing anything meaningful (X45/46/47)

(22 Nov 2019, 12:29 am)streetdeckfan wrote I think the trouble is it's hard to have a direct route between all places, hub and spoke is far more efficient than point to point. You can get to most places in the North East with only one change, and to just about anywhere else with 2 changes. I think that's more than adequate!

But the problem with that is like I said further up, Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva all have their areas, and until there is a ticket that you can use in all areas (I know that exists within T&W, but a there's no cross-border tickets) it'll always be more expensive than taking the car.

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say there are no services for Arnison centre and Dragonville since it's fairly easy to just change buses. Assuming you want to stay within the GNE network:

Arnison Centre - From the north you can catch the 50 from CLS, from everywhere else you can catch the 14 from Durham
Dragonville - You can just change at Durham to the 204/208. If you're coming from South Shields/Sunderland, it's a fairly short walk from Durham City Retail Park, or if you're particularly lazy (like me), you can time the journey right and change to the 208 and go 2 stops.

I think one step towards making the bus network more appealing is to offer actual express services. I don't care how much GNE think it is, the X21 is not an express service. It takes 4 times longer to travel between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle as it does to take the car, and for most people that makes it unusable. 

I would gladly lose the direct link to Newcastle from Tindale if GNE would offer an actual express service between Bishop Auckland and Newcastle, calling only at Spennymoor, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshead and Newcastle. Even if it was only an hourly service, it would probably still cut the journey time enough to make it usable.
I see no reason for the X21 to go via Framwellgate Moor, that area is served more than enough by the 21, it should go express between CLS and Durham, either via the A1 or A167 depending on traffic. 

I would have loved to see the new X-lines network be a network of express routes, but the way I see it is they're just rebranding routes to make them seem faster without changing anything meaningful (X45/46/47)

Most of the other X-Lines are express 
X6/7 Limited Stop about 30 minutes between Peterlee and Sunderland. 

X20 limited stop gets between Durham and Sunderland in 45 minutes 15 minutes quicker  than it's none express counter part.

X30/31 gets to Stanley/Newcastle in about 40 minutes 

Basically what I'm trying to say is the X-Lines brand is more than just the X21 it does have actual Express Services

The X30 is more frequent now but it takes much longer than it used to in the past, the X30 used to be a genuine express serving only Stanley, Sunniside, Lobley Hill, Gateshead and Newcastle and took 30 minutes, not it takes at least 40. Accepting of course there is more traffic now so it gets stuck more often, but observing all stops and going via Whickham makes it anything but express. It's still very convenient and easy if you are just going to Newcastle, but the extra time becomes a pain if you then need to get another bus, rush hour journeys often take 50+ minutes in my experience, albeit as an infrequent user.

(22 Nov 2019, 9:12 am)garym67 wrote The X30 is more frequent now but it takes much longer than it used to in the past, the X30 used to be a genuine express serving only Stanley, Sunniside, Lobley Hill, Gateshead and Newcastle and took 30 minutes, not it takes at least 40. Accepting of course there is more traffic now so it gets stuck more often, but observing all stops and going via Whickham makes it anything but express. It's still very convenient and easy if you are just going to Newcastle, but the extra time becomes a pain if you then need to get another bus, rush hour journeys often take 50+ minutes in my experience, albeit as an infrequent user.

Exactly that. I mean the X30 is still pretty quick, it only takes about 10-15 minutes longer than the car assuming it has a clear run, and the car follows the speed limits

My main gripe though is with the X45/46/47. Having them run limited stop for the short section between MetroCentre and Newcastle is not enough to call it an express route in my eyes.
And no matter how you put it, a journey with 71 stops (in the case of the X21) is not express!

(22 Nov 2019, 9:25 am)streetdeckfan wrote Exactly that. I mean the X30 is still pretty quick, it only takes about 10-15 minutes longer than the car assuming it has a clear run, and the car follows the speed limits

My main gripe though is with the X45/46/47. Having them run limited stop for the short section between MetroCentre and Newcastle is not enough to call it an express route in my eyes.
And no matter how you put it, a journey with 71 stops (in the case of the X21) is not express!

Sticking an 'X' in front of a number is a very good marketing exercise, regardless of where it goes and how many stops it serves, especially as we are ride the current X-lines wave. Will be the reason for Go North East adopting the Red Kites into X-Lines to boost an enhanced service.

The thing is, what is being proposed nationwide, is totally different to the proposal in Manchester and what we saw under the QCS proposal. 

Any suggestions we see now, are clearly under the auspices of a tory government and their ideology. 

You mention the out of town shopping, Sunday shopping and other elements in your post, yet fail to mention the lack of progress (locally at least) in countering those changes and enabling passengers region wide, to take advantage of those social changes whilst using public transport. 
For all the back slapping and self congratulations there may be, I don't think the industry hasn't adapted or improved as much as it thinks it has.

(22 Nov 2019, 10:29 am)Andreos1 wrote The thing is, what is being proposed nationwide, is totally different to the proposal in Manchester and what we saw under the QCS proposal. 

Any suggestions we see now, are clearly under the auspices of a tory government and their ideology. 

You mention the out of town shopping, Sunday shopping and other elements in your post, yet fail to mention the lack of progress (locally at least) in countering those changes and enabling passengers region wide, to take advantage of those social changes whilst using public transport. 
For all the back slapping and self congratulations there may be, I don't think the industry hasn't adapted or improved as much as it thinks it has.

Labour have given absolutely no detail in how they're going to do it so how can you say it's totally different to the proposal in Manchester?


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(22 Nov 2019, 11:31 am)streetdeckfan wrote Labour have given absolutely no detail in how they're going to do it so how can you say it's totally different to the proposal in Manchester?


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https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-annou...us-routes/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/201...-tory-cuts

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-wo...rbyn-says/




Public ownership - not franchise is a starting point for you.

https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses

8319 has been refurbished and was at Beamish in its new livery for Beamish...

(22 Nov 2019, 1:15 pm)S830OFT wrote 8319 has been refurbished and was at Beamish in its new livery for Beamish...

Looks like it could be a brand for 28/28A

(22 Nov 2019, 1:20 pm)Ds1197 wrote Looks like it could be a brand for 28/28A

Let’s hope not! It doesn’t follow the new corporate identity anyway.

Can we not put this politics issue to the appropriate political thread on this forum, also never believe what labour or any other says to the run up to the elections there are just trying to buy your votes and not go through what there stated in the run up to the election, the older generation will know all these cons but the younger generation are so naive in what there here from the campaigns


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(21 Nov 2019, 10:05 pm)deanmachine wrote They do at Middlesbrough, or at least they did when I worked at Riverside in the summer.

Go North East 9077 / YX19 ONU by kieron mathews, on Flickr

Managed to catch it today but difficult to track as it shows on bus times but not on the GNE app


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Go North East have confirmed the Scania Farewell event will take place at Saltmeadows Depot from 11am on Sunday 15th December



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(22 Nov 2019, 1:15 pm)S830OFT wrote 8319 has been refurbished and was at Beamish in its new livery for Beamish...

Looks smart!, wonder how many more Versa's will get refurbished??

Wonder if the 11/63 plates get the same treatment inside , be good to See a citaro with this interior. Also 6099 is at Deptford if not said in new livery moving to Percy main end of month

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(22 Nov 2019, 7:34 pm)ryan.c.lawrence.5 wrote Wonder if the 11/63 plates get the same treatment inside , be good to See a citaro with this interior. Also 6099 is at Deptford if not said in new livery moving to Percy main end of month

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Wonder if all of them will get refurbished?... do hope they sort the fleet numbers out, so if they brand them, they'll be the same batch of numbers, so for example - all the Quaylink would be 8315-8338.


Looks like the Hybrid Versa has gone, can't see it on the fleet allocation/list.

(22 Nov 2019, 7:45 pm)Michael wrote Wonder if all of them will get refurbished?... do hope they sort the fleet numbers out, so if they brand them, they'll be the same batch of numbers, so for example - all the Quaylink would be 8315-8338.


Looks like the Hybrid Versa has gone, can't see it on the fleet allocation/list.

Don't think all are getting done , does anyone know if 8319 has got USB's or Next stops installed too ?

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(21 Nov 2019, 11:39 pm)Storx wrote Everyone always mentions pricing and buses for the reason for the reduction in bus use but is it just me who thinks the bus network is just outdated completely.

Most routes have barely changed since the 80's however where people actually want to be have massively and unless you drive some of them are just impossible to get to. Some examples:

Metro Centre - Bar the 6/7 there's absolutely no service from the whole of the West End of Newcastle unless you travel the wrong direction and back on yourself.
Silverlink - No service at all bar the 19/22. 306/308 too far and the A19 roundabout isn't a walk you want to do.
Team Valley - No service bar the Loop
Arnison Centre - No service to the North or West.
Durham Dragonville - No service to North, East or South.
Teeside Park - One bus every 30 minutes, miles from the shops.
Cleveland Retail / Tesco Eston - One bus every 30 minutes.

Yet places like North Shields, Durham City Centre, South Shields, Stockton etc have loads of buses going into them from all over where sadly people don't really want to be nowadays as there's nothing left anymore. It's no wonder bus usage is decreasing.

Hmm. The 50 and 14 serve the arnison centre. The loop is pretty frequent to Team Valley, which is on the way to nowhere. 

Hmm. The 50 and 14 serve the arnison centre. The loop is pretty frequent to Team Valley, which is on the way to nowhere.

I must admit I missed the 50 at Arnison. The Loop isn't helpful for people who live at places like Chester-Le-Street, Stanley, Consett and it's the closest place to get the big shops such as Hobbycraft and the like.

@streetdeckfan
It was more on the point that the hubs now are just outdated and aren't where people really want to go anymore.

Personally I'd rather see a totally different network to the way they work currently in the sense you have a selection of hubs with express buses running inbetween then with local buses connecting to the hubs so you can get around quickly and stop having places where there's too many bus routes congesting roads. Tyne Bridge / Coast Road for example.

To give an example in part of SE N'land / N. Tyneside. You'd have main hubs at Newcastle, Silverlink, Cramlington and Killingworth. For these you'd have all the local bus routes connecting to them for example buses from Silverlink to N Shields, Whitley, Cullercoats, Cobalt etc. Then from the hub have a dedicated express bus running direct to Newcastle where there's money spent on the route bus lanes, priority routes etc. Almost as a metro but buses instead. It's almost a bus and ride, with park and rides put next to some of them. All trying to promote people to actually use cars plus it's good for the environment not having 4 bus routes following each other down the Coast Road. The same would be at Cramlington (Blyth Expresses + Cramlington), Killingworth (X7/X8, 54 + Killingworth) both with express bus routes to town.

It would work well with the X21 aswell with it being non-stop Newcastle -> Gateshead -> Low Fell -> Angel (P+R) -> Chester-Le-Street -> Durham Hospital -> Durham -> Spennymoor -> Bishop Auckland with all the local buses connecting to it at the hubs above. It makes it more viable for more people whereas it's only really useful if you live near by it as it no doubt wont connect with anything.

(22 Nov 2019, 6:38 pm)TEN 6083 wrote Managed to catch it today but difficult to track as it shows on bus times but not on the GNE app

Don't know how you had so many issues finding it, tracked fine for me on the GNE app all day

Omicity toon link was in the a174 today presuming heading for eyms Scarborough

Streetlite 5459 involved in a thermal incident in Swalwell yesterday afternoon.