(31 Dec 2019, 10:28 am)Rob44 wrote I used the 44 when it was Whitley bay - Hazlerigg back in the day. it was very rarely on time TBF but it always came in my experience.  They never said tough its now starting from Gosforth high street - get your ass there to get it!  Also in my experience when you put your hand out for an Arriva it stops.  My partner was waiting at the bus stop at on way to town for work and it drove straight passed..... luckily I was in so she rang me and I dropped her in town. Rang customer service and after 7 days they got back to her to say sorry we've check the CCTV and he did drive passed.... he was new to the route?  Maybe they should make the bus stop shelter and sign bigger?

Storx - what you say make a lot of sense, but take the 21 GNE for example. I've stood in the rain and seen a number of half full 21 zoom passed with NIS on trying probably to catch up on time. Then surprise surprise the next 21 is full so cant get on that either. 40 minutes for a 10 minute service.  Imagine if arriva put competition on the route ( not the poor X12) do you think GNE bus would zoom past money waiting at the bus stop if they thought that money would go to arriva? Of course not. And it give the passengers another choice of company to use and drives fares down.

The problem is GoNorthEast wont just sit there and let them get away. Arriva have already attacked Durham Road in the past because of GoNorthEast trying to take on Arriva's routes. See below:

https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB0003954/288 - X43/44 from Blyth to Newcastle in Arriva territory.

1 month later

https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB0002717/188 - X21 along Durham Road (It failed miserably).

They wont risk it happening again and another war starting.

(31 Dec 2019, 12:52 pm)Storx wrote The problem is GoNorthEast wont just sit there and let them get away. Arriva have already attacked Durham Road in the past because of GoNorthEast trying to take on Arriva's routes. See below:

https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB0003954/288 - X43/44 from Blyth to Newcastle in Arriva territory.

1 month later

https://bustimes.org/registrations/PB0002717/188 - X21 along Durham Road (It failed miserably).

They wont risk it happening again and another war starting.

I think it was other way round , arriva went onto GNE routes, GNE had a stake in Northumberland when there purchased Northumbria Coaches


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(31 Dec 2019, 9:44 am)BusLoverMum wrote Arriva buses would get caught up in the same heavy traffic that delays your gne bus and having lived in deepest arriva territory for many years, I can assure you that their customer service is non-existent.

Arriva's customer service has improved slightly recently, in that it just about exists now, as long as you're just asking about fares! Anything else and they just ignore you on the live chat, in particularly when you're complaining about a service (which happens frequently as most of their drivers are borderline useless)

(31 Dec 2019, 9:58 am)Storx wrote You'd think this would improve the services but in reality in the long term they'll be much worse. All that will end up happening is you'll have a price war, neither companies will make any money, thus no investment, eventually one of them will buy the other out to stop the price war, prices will increase big time to recoup the loss they've made, people stop using the bus, services cut, never ending cycle.

You can't just go dipping in other people's areas not to mention Arriva or GNE wont just sit there and let them take their area without a retalliation. I'm sure GNE would love an excuse to put buses along West Road one of the most profitable areas in the North East.

I'm not saying it would ever happen, only that I fail to see the extension to the X21 being profitable unless they also have services around the local area that link up to it.

yes I know all that. and I agree. But my point is with no competition GNE have no incentive to provide a better service . I can't imagine a 309 or 310 going along the coat road with NIS on the screen when they know Arriva 306/308 will be along within minutes. Yet on route with no or little competition they do what they like.....

Plus think of the overtime the driver will get!

(31 Dec 2019, 1:09 pm)Rob44 wrote yes I know all that. and I agree. But my point is with no competition GNE have no incentive to provide a better service . I can't imagine a 309 or 310 going along the coat road with NIS on the screen when they know Arriva 306/308 will be along within minutes. Yet on route with no or little competition they do what they like.....

Plus think of the overtime the driver will get!

Yes there can do whatever there like, it’s called life . bus services should be in the hands of the local authorities or councils, instead of the money going into shareholders pockets, bus companies should be bidding to run a service which is set by the councils.


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(31 Dec 2019, 1:09 pm)Rob44 wrote yes I know all that.  and I agree. But my point is with no competition GNE have no incentive to provide a better service . I can't imagine a 309 or 310 going along the coat road with NIS on the screen when they know Arriva 306/308 will be along within minutes. Yet on route with no or little competition they do what they like.....

Plus think of the overtime the driver will get!

That is an issue we have with the X21, and that has has quite a bit of competition from Arriva. They turn it around in Bishop and miss out Tindale when there's heavy traffic, so many times I've had to either catch the Arriva 6 or X1, and at that point I might as well get an Arriva day ticket and go all the way to Durham on Arriva

(31 Dec 2019, 1:15 pm)cbma06 wrote Yes there can do whatever there like, it’s called life . bus services should be in the hands of the local authorities or councils, instead of the money going into shareholders pockets, bus companies should be bidding to run a service which is set by the councils.


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Have to say I disagree. I doubt the council would invest as heavily and make such big improvements. Businesses thrive on efficiency and continual improvement. Council and government sectors do not.
Saying that stagecoach and arriva seem to of lagged behind GNE for years when I comes to NSA, wifi, on board charging, ticket offerings etc; not to mention cleanliness

Nexus is probably the closest to council ran services bus ticket prices hike right up outside of Tyne and Wear

(31 Dec 2019, 1:28 pm)JP6004 wrote Have to say I disagree. I doubt the council would invest as heavily and make such big improvements. Businesses thrive on efficiency and continual improvement. Council and government sectors do not.
Saying that stagecoach and arriva seem to of lagged behind GNE for years when I comes to NSA, wifi, on board charging, ticket offerings etc; not to mention cleanliness

Exactly, businesses want to make money so they try to be better than the competition.
If it was run by the council, they'd want to waste as much money as they can so they can get a bigger budget next year. There would be no competition, so why would they make their services better.

The operators would just lie about how they're going to make the services better when they put in for the tender, and we'd be in exactly the same situation were in with the rail network.
You can argue all day whether it would be better nationalised, but the half arsed franchise system isn't working. Either go all in and let them operate fully independently, or renationalise them

I only really have experience with Arriva Durham, but from that it looks like they have the edge on Stagecoach when it comes to the likes of NSA, WiFi and charging. At least with the MAX and Sapphire services.
I think Arriva must have one cleaner, and they've been on the sick for the past few years!

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If i asked 100 people if GNE/arria/stagcoach has improved their service over the last 25 years do you think the majority would say yes?  I doubt it.



I just remember the days before de-regulation and i dont remember buses been old and needing replacing. In fact didn't  The TWPTE just invest in new double dickers before this and becoming busways. I'm sure also united which became northumbria had just invest in a load of deckers to so i dont think there is a problem with investment. As for ticket offering, onboard wifi etc I would prefer it it the buses ran regualrly ( my bus on an evening is every 70 minutes ) and actually arrived to get me to my destination.

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(31 Dec 2019, 3:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Exactly, businesses want to make money so they try to be better than the competition.
If it was run by the council, they'd want to waste as much money as they can so they can get a bigger budget next year. There would be no competition, so why would they make their services better.

The operators would just lie about how they're going to make the services better when they put in for the tender, and we'd be in exactly the same situation were in with the rail network.
You can argue all day whether it would be better nationalised, but the half arsed franchise system isn't working. Either go all in and let them operate fully independently, or renationalise them

I only really have experience with Arriva Durham, but from that it looks like they have the edge on Stagecoach when it comes to the likes of NSA, WiFi and charging. At least with the MAX and Sapphire services.
I think Arriva must have one cleaner, and they've been on the sick for the past few years!

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Do lothian buses waste loads of $$$$$. I only as as I spend 4 times a year in Edinburgh and the bus service up there is 10x better than here

(31 Dec 2019, 3:21 pm)Rob44 wrote If i asked 100 people if GNE/arria/stagcoach has improved their service over the last 25 years do you think the majority would say yes?  I doubt it.



I just remember the days before de-regulation and i dont remember buses been old and needing replacing. In fact didn't  The TWPTE just invest in new double dickers before this and becoming busways. I'm sure also united which became northumbria had just invest in a load of deckers to so i dont think there is a problem with investment. As for ticket offering, onboard wifi etc I would prefer it it the buses ran regualrly ( my bus on an evening is every 70 minutes ) and actually arrived to get me to my destination.

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Do lothian buses waste loads of $$$$$. I only as as I spend 4 times a year in Edinburgh and the bus service up there is 10x better than here

C reg overload up here pre-86!

Re Lothian. Same with Reading, Nottingham and Blackpool.
Its amazing how well they're perceived within the industry and passengers alike.

Exactly Andreos1 if it works for them whey not tyne and wear or even the whole of the north east?

County Durham & Teeside service changes
This is to build up a small network to take on Arriva.
Service X21- Current proposed route between Newcastle and West Auckland every 30 minutes (PVR 8)
Current service X22- renumbered X12
NEW service X22- Newcastle-Gateshead-Low Fell-Chester-le-Street-Durham-Coxhoe-Ferryhill-Newton Aycliffe-Darlington (PVR 8)
Service 23- Peterlee-Wingate-Station Town-Trimdon-Sedgefield-Newton Aycliffe-Shildon-Bishop Auckland-Woodhouse-Tindale Cresent- West Auckland- Barnard Castle
Service 24 Middlesbrough-Teeside Park-Thornaby-Stockton-Darlington-Barnard Castle
Indigo Peterlee- All services will see a change in times. Service 202 will run between Peterlee and Seaham only. PVR 12
Allocations
Service X21- 6304-6307 & 6330-6333
Service X22- Will see a mixed allocation- 5x Streetdecks and 3x unbranded single deckers- till the new deckers are here it will be 3x streetdecks and 2 B7's.
Service 23/24- 637-638, 652-654, 8301, 8302 (PVR 7)
Indigo Peterlee- 655-666
Transfers
637, 638 & 652 to Peterlee
5238 & 5272 to Chester-le-Street

(31 Dec 2019, 10:22 pm)michaelb wrote County Durham & Teeside service changes
This is to build up a small network to take on Arriva.
Service X21- Current proposed route between Newcastle and West Auckland every 30 minutes (PVR 8)
Current service X22- renumbered X12
NEW service X22- Newcastle-Gateshead-Low Fell-Chester-le-Street-Durham-Coxhoe-Ferryhill-Newton Aycliffe-Darlington (PVR 8)
Service 23- Peterlee-Wingate-Station Town-Trimdon-Sedgefield-Newton Aycliffe-Shildon-Bishop Auckland-Woodhouse-Tindale Cresent- West Auckland- Barnard Castle
Service 24 Middlesbrough-Teeside Park-Thornaby-Stockton-Darlington-Barnard Castle
Indigo Peterlee- All services will see a change in times. Service 202 will run between Peterlee and Seaham only. PVR 12
Allocations
Service X21- 6304-6307 & 6330-6333
Service X22- Will see a mixed allocation- 5x Streetdecks and 3x unbranded single deckers- till the new deckers are here it will be 3x streetdecks and 2 B7's.
Service 23/24- 637-638, 652-654, 8301, 8302 (PVR 7)
Indigo Peterlee- 655-666
Transfers
637, 638 & 652 to Peterlee
5238 & 5272 to Chester-le-Street

There would be some hefty dead mileage on 23/24, surely?

(31 Dec 2019, 11:50 pm)BusLoverMum wrote There would be some hefty dead mileage on 23/24, surely?

23 and 24 will interwork with eachother.

First 24 from Barnard Castle to Middlesbrough would be 06:50
Last 24 from Barnard Castle to Middlesbrough would be 18:55

First 24 from Middlesbrough to Barnard Castle would be 07:30
Last 24 from Middlesbrough to Barnard Castle would be 20:36

First 23 from Peterlee to Barnard Castle would be 05:03
Last 23 from Peterlee to Barnard Castle would be 17:01

First 23 from Barnard Castle to Peterlee would be 07:04
Last 23 from Barnard Castle to Peterlee would be 22:04

Only dead mileage would be from Peterlee to Middlesbrough for the 07:30 24

Suggestions for night buses Fri & Sat:

- N20 (PVR 2) Durham to Sunderland
- N21 (PVR 3) extended to Bishop Auckland
- N30 (PVR 1) Newcastle to Stanley, departures from Newcastle at 0100 and 0230
- N45 (PVR 2) Newcastle to Consett via Blackhall Mill, departures from Newcastle at 0025, 0140 and 0255
- N10 (PVR 2) Newcastle to Hexham via Scotswood Rd, departures from Newcastle at 0005, 0120, 0235

12B: Newcastle - Fenham - West Denton - Denton Burn - Blaydon - Winlaton

X40 - Newcastle - Denton Burn - Chapel House

X44: Newcastle - Denton Burn - Metrocentre - Rowlands Gill - Blackhall Mill operating hourly

X84: Newcastle - Fenham (West Road) - Slatyford - Denton Burn - Throckley - Heddon on the Wall - Wylam - Ovingham - Ovington - Corbridge - Hexham

Night service N33 between Newcastle and Gosforth and N84 between Newcastle and Hexham.

(02 Jan 2020, 6:09 pm)L469 YVK wrote Suggestions for night buses Fri & Sat:

- N20 (PVR 2) Durham to Sunderland
- N21 (PVR 3) extended to Bishop Auckland
- N30 (PVR 1) Newcastle to Stanley, departures from Newcastle at 0100 and 0230
- N45 (PVR 2) Newcastle to Consett via Blackhall Mill, departures from Newcastle at 0025, 0140 and 0255
- N10 (PVR 2) Newcastle to Hexham via Scotswood Rd, departures from Newcastle at 0005, 0120, 0235

Apart from the N20 which didn't work in the past is the return journeys. You may have 20 people going from Newcastle to Stanley but the return journey will be dead throughout. It's the reason night buses don't work up here. You also have the problem that it won't pick anyone up through the journey. The N21 is different as it has a flow from Durham to Newcastle and Newcastle to Durham with both Low Fell and Chester Le Street on the route where people go out. It's the same with the N56 which has both from Sunderland and Newcastle then Concord in the middle.

Once you split it all down you end up having 10 passengers per a bus and it's not enough to make them work.

(03 Jan 2020, 10:28 am)Storx wrote Apart from the N20 which didn't work in the past is the return journeys. You may have 20 people going from Newcastle to Stanley but the return journey will be dead throughout. It's the reason night buses don't work up here. You also have the problem that it won't pick anyone up through the journey. The N21 is different as it has a flow from Durham to Newcastle and Newcastle to Durham with both Low Fell and Chester Le Street on the route where people go out. It's the same with the N56 which has both from Sunderland and Newcastle then Concord in the middle.

Once you split it all down you end up having 10 passengers per a bus and it's not enough to make them work.

Originally N20 only went from Durham to Gilesgate


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Curtail services 25, 26/27 and 28/28A/28B at Gateshead Interchange and curtail the 25 at Witton Gilbert. This could allow the 309/310/311 to move to Eldon Square.

(03 Jan 2020, 2:11 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Curtail services 25, 26/27 and 28/28A/28B at Gateshead Interchange and curtail the 25 at Witton Gilbert. This could allow the 309/310/311 to move to Eldon Square.

They'd end up carrying fresh air if moved to Eldon Square! No harm keeping them at Haymarket. I think GNE will become the dominant operator between Coast Road / Station Road & Newcastle within the next few years with Arriva restructuring the 306 / 308 to a similar way that GNE have with the 21 / X21.

(03 Jan 2020, 2:17 pm)L469 YVK wrote They'd end up carrying fresh air if moved to Eldon Square! No harm keeping them at Haymarket. I think GNE will become the dominant operator between Coast Road / Station Road & Newcastle within the next few years with Arriva restructuring the 306 / 308 to a similar way that GNE have with the 21 / X21.

Haymarket is dominated by Arriva, whereas Eldon Square is dominated by GNE. How would moving bus station change passenger numbers? Connections are easier if all the services are in one place, the Q3 and Cobalt &. Coast services are odd in Haymarket.

What about curtailing services at Gateshead? Some 27s could still continue to Newcastle.

(03 Jan 2020, 2:27 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Haymarket is dominated by Arriva, whereas Eldon Square is dominated by GNE. How would moving bus station change passenger numbers? Connections are easier if all the services are in one place, the Q3 and Cobalt &. Coast services are odd in Haymarket.

What about curtailing services at Gateshead? Some 27s could still continue to Newcastle.

That's exactly why they should be at Haymarket. They're trying to take passengers away from Arriva, so why not put the services alongside Arriva's.

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(03 Jan 2020, 2:33 pm)streetdeckfan wrote That's exactly why they should be at Haymarket. They're trying to take passengers away from Arriva, so why not put the services alongside Arriva's.

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My logic was GNE could take passengers away from Arriva by keeping passengers away from Haymarket. Only passengers from Great Park and Gosforth are currently able to connect with the Cobalt & Coast services directly. Passengers with GNE tickets already will connect with other GNE services in Newcastle wherever they go from. Moving all services to Eldon Square will make connections easier for Stagecoach passengers. Anyone disembarking at Haymarket probably already have an ticket to connect with other Arriva services.

(03 Jan 2020, 2:11 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Curtail services 25, 26/27 and 28/28A/28B at Gateshead Interchange and curtail the 25 at Witton Gilbert. This could allow the 309/310/311 to move to Eldon Square.

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(03 Jan 2020, 2:41 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote My logic was GNE could take passengers away from Arriva by keeping passengers away from Haymarket. Only passengers from Great Park and Gosforth are currently able to connect with the Cobalt & Coast services directly. Passengers with GNE tickets already will connect with other GNE services in Newcastle wherever they go from. Moving all services to Eldon Square will make connections easier for Stagecoach passengers. Anyone disembarking at Haymarket probably already have an ticket to connect with other Arriva services.

I can see the logic, but I think it makes more sense having the stations split based on location rather than operator, with Northbound services at Haymarket and Southbound services at Eldon Square

I would also argue that anyone using the 309/310 will probably be connecting to another GNE service already

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After leaving the match on new years day it struck me how flowing the traffic was in the city centre.... there were no buses. I realise that it was also quiet but there were ALOT of taxi and private cars  around.  Maybe Orange has a point and all GNE services that call at Gateshead/heworth should terminate there and passengers to use the metro?  Same as arriva service from the north should turn around at Regent centre.  If Newcastle and gateshead plus the other councils are serious about air pollution this should have at least been talked about.

The 26/27 don't stop at Eldon Square the stop at Market Street

(03 Jan 2020, 5:00 pm)Rob44 wrote After leaving the match on new years day it struck me how flowing the traffic was in the city centre.... there were no buses. I realise that it was also quiet but there were ALOT of taxi and private cars  around.  Maybe Orange has a point and all GNE services that call at Gateshead/heworth should terminate there and passengers to use the metro?  Same as arriva service from the north should turn around at Regent centre.  If Newcastle and gateshead plus the other councils are serious about air pollution this should have at least been talked about.

Some GNE services could terminate at Gateshead Interchange, they don't all need to continue to Newcastle as long as there is little or no waiting time for a connection to Newcastle, and the Metro could be utilised to some extent. Not sure how tickets could work though, connecting GNE buses at Gateshead to continue to Newcastle could work, the Metro less so. Perhaps GNE tickets could be accepted just between Gateshead and Newcastle City Centre?

There are too many GNE buses serving Newcastle. 

Less buses in Newcastle in general would be a good thing.

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(03 Jan 2020, 5:13 pm)Ds1197 wrote The 26/27 don't stop at Eldon Square the stop at Market Street

Anyone say otherwise? I said curtail the 26/27 at Gateshead, never said they stop at Eldon Square. Terminating services 25 and 28/28A/28B would create some room at Eldon Square for other services. I personally wouldn't put the 26/27 at Eldon Square, Market Street is good enough for the 1, 26/27, 56, 57, 58 etc.

(03 Jan 2020, 5:27 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Some GNE services could terminate at Gateshead Interchange, they don't all need to continue to Newcastle as long as there is little or no waiting time for a connection to Newcastle, and the Metro could be utilised to some extent. Not sure how tickets could work though, connecting GNE buses at Gateshead to continue to Newcastle could work, the Metro less so. Perhaps GNE tickets could be accepted just between Gateshead and Newcastle City Centre?

There are too many GNE buses serving Newcastle. 

Less buses in Newcastle in general would be a good thing.

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Anyone say otherwise? I said curtail the 26/27 at Gateshead, never said they stop at Eldon Square. Terminating services 25 and 28/28A/28B would create some room at Eldon Square for other services. I personally wouldn't put the 26/27 at Eldon Square, Market Street is good enough for the 1, 26/27, 56, 57, 58 etc.

To do all of those things, you need an integrated transport network. 
We did have that once upon a time...