Will 7446 be Withdrawn from the accident or is it being fixed

(11 Feb 2020, 2:01 pm)Citaro5338 wrote Will 7446 be Withdrawn from the accident or is it being fixed

What happened during the accident

(11 Feb 2020, 6:06 am)RobinHood wrote The 63 isn't changing its frequency.

The 62 will replace the 64 route in Redcar, with the X3 picking up other parts around Redcar Lane.

Full details are not out yet but apparently X3 route is changing to go that way and X4 will be running until midnight too.

The drivers at Redcar have seen the ideas and I'm told that 62, 63, 64 all have extra time in their timetables compared to now.

The real casualty is the 81, but you can't keep running around with fresh air.

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So, what's going to happen now? Our Prime Minister is talking about a revolution in bus services with talk of 4000 new buses. Yet here in our part of the country we're about to suffer another round of service cuts, reductions and timetable re-arrangements all in a bit for the operator to reduce costs / save money without much regard for their customers; have I been asked for my opinion? Has anyone been asked. I ask one question? Why change something that works?

(11 Feb 2020, 7:41 pm)scanialover wrote

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So, what's going to happen now? Our Prime Minister is talking about a revolution in bus services with talk of 4000 new buses. Yet here in our part of the country we're about to suffer another round of service cuts, reductions and timetable re-arrangements all in a bit for the operator to reduce costs / save money without much regard for their customers; have I been asked for my opinion? Has anyone been asked. I ask one question?  Why change something that works?

Reading an article about this new lot of funding, I saw this image:


R&C is on the list for the biggest drops in patronage.
I appreciate the new Teesflex initiative could help to arrest the fall in some of the area, but there needs to be acknowledgement amongst the main operators, that what they're doing isn't working. 
I think the question needs to be asked about what they're doing to arrest that fall, which doesn't involve cuts and consolidation. 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that cuts don't equate to more bums on seats.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51460437

Redcar and Cleveland with a 36% drop in patronage ? Nothing to do with Arriva by any chance

(11 Feb 2020, 1:09 am)Kuyoyo wrote Redcar’s Pulsars are off to Stockton in exchange for their Streetlites - presumably alongside losing 1759 and 4516.

Will this include 1440 as redcar sapphire spare 
Does could we potentially see a sapphire launch of the 63

(11 Feb 2020, 9:29 pm)scanialover wrote Redcar and Cleveland with a 36% drop in patronage ? Nothing to do with Arriva by any chance

I think there will be underlying external factors which have influenced the drop over the 10 year period. 
However, I do think the buck stops with the operators wherever the drop is.

As I said before, cutting and consolidating doesn't equate to more bums on seats. 
It might save money (as in the case of the 81), but I can't see what logic would dictate that more people use what is left of it.

(11 Feb 2020, 9:15 pm)Andreos1 wrote Reading an article about this new lot of funding, I saw this image:


R&C is on the list for the biggest drops in patronage.
I appreciate the new Teesflex initiative could help to arrest the fall in some of the area, but there needs to be acknowledgement amongst the main operators, that what they're doing isn't working. 
I think the question needs to be asked about what they're doing to arrest that fall, which doesn't involve cuts and consolidation. 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that cuts don't equate to more bums on seats.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51460437

2010 Redcar and Cleveland (plus other Teesside authories) still had bus service funding, which ironically is exactly what it feels like the 81 needs. Lots of boroughbus patronage will be in that 'lost' figure.

With the exception of Service 71, the Redcar and Cleveland bus network is largely similar to now, so 36% decline can't be solely down to chopping bus services by Arriva (obviously won't be helping!)

Incidentally, that's probably why we never heard of or saw as many cuts back then, as we perceive now, as local authories had money to put in and secure stuff like this. That's where it needs to be put back in, is my opinion.

All of the operators are doing the same thing - GNE reduced alot of their frequencies a few years ago, similarity most of Stagecoach Teesside services have seen big frequency drops too in recent years. It's an industry thing and no obvious solution in sight.

TeesFlex might work, but what if it abstracts from the core bus network and Arriva contact in size again. The funding for TeesFlex won't last forever and come 5 years down the line, everyone is worse off for it! Will be interesting to see what's going to happen...

(11 Feb 2020, 7:41 pm)scanialover wrote

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So, what's going to happen now? Our Prime Minister is talking about a revolution in bus services with talk of 4000 new buses. Yet here in our part of the country we're about to suffer another round of service cuts, reductions and timetable re-arrangements all in a bit for the operator to reduce costs / save money without much regard for their customers; have I been asked for my opinion? Has anyone been asked. I ask one question?  Why change something that works?

4000 new buses isn't much, nationwide. Note it doesn't say new services.

(11 Feb 2020, 10:21 pm)Ryland wrote Will this include 1440 as redcar sapphire spare 
Does could we potentially see a sapphire launch of the 63

As far as I'm aware all of Redcars Pulsars 1429-40 will be exchanged for Stocktons Streetlites due to the reduced PVR as well as for fleet standardisation

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

(11 Feb 2020, 10:21 pm)Ryland wrote Will this include 1440 as redcar sapphire spare 
Does could we potentially see a sapphire launch of the 63

1440 is moving to Stockton
As for Redcar’s PVR allocation from April - the 63 is more than likely to be an entirely Temsa allocation, been suggestions of 64/64a/X3/X3a interworking

(11 Feb 2020, 6:38 pm)GNE6312 wrote What happened during the accident

Why do you need to know?

Has 1407 transferred or is it on loan to Darlington

(12 Feb 2020, 8:15 am)omnicity4659 wrote Why do you need to know?

Just asking as I like 7446 no need for the sarcasm

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(12 Feb 2020, 8:21 am)Citaro5338 wrote Has 1407 transferred or is it on loan to Darlington

Hopefully none as Ashington need it. Considering a solo is on the X21/X22.

It would be easier letting the X4 replace the 64, only adding an extra 30 minutes onto the journey...

With rumours speculating Redcar service changes, here is a little suggestion thought of my own.

Route X3/A: Revised to serve Marske Estate.

Route X4: This service will serve South Bank, Eston and Grangetown. To ensure the timetable is efficient the service will omit Dormanstown.

Route 62: Revised to serve Ings Farm replacing service 64.

Route 63: Reduced to every 12 minutes.

Route 64: This service will be merged with service X4 to offer improved connections to Saltburn, Loftus & Whitby from the South Bank area.

Route 64A: Reduced to every 30 minutes, this service will interwork with service X3/X3A.

Route 81: Will only operate between Marske and Guisborough.?

(12 Feb 2020, 8:21 am)Citaro5338 wrote Has 1407 transferred or is it on loan to Darlington

On loan pending its return to Stockton

(12 Feb 2020, 8:22 am)GNE6312 wrote Hopefully none as Ashington need it. Considering a solo is on the X21/X22.

Ashington don't need it - it was being used by Ashington from a reserve position covering for 7513. Now the new 7510 has arrived, 1407 is surplus at Ashington and is needed back at Stockton as the depot technically never received an additional vehicle in August when the S1 was introduced on weekdays (and of course, when the X12 replaced it in October)

(12 Feb 2020, 8:56 am)S830OFT wrote It would be easier letting the X4 replace the 64, only adding an extra 30 minutes onto the journey...

The 62 is replacing the 64 in Redcar and the X3/X3a takes over from the 62. The X4 replaces the 62 in Dormanstown as well (doubling the number of buses through there to Middlesbrough and giving an improved journey time).

(12 Feb 2020, 9:10 am)S830OFT wrote With rumours speculating Redcar service changes, here is a little suggestion thought of my own.

Route X3/A: Revised to serve Marske Estate.

Route X4: This service will serve South Bank, Eston and Grangetown. To ensure the timetable is efficient the service will omit Dormanstown.

Route 62: Revised to serve Ings Farm replacing service 64.

Route 63: Reduced to every 12 minutes.

Route 64: This service will be merged with service X4 to offer improved connections to Saltburn, Loftus & Whitby from the South Bank area.

Route 64A: Reduced to every 30 minutes, this service will interwork with service X3/X3A.

Route 81: Will only operate between Marske and Guisborough.?

81 is still serving Marske Estate.
X3/X3A replaces the 62 between Dormanstown and Marske (though via Redcar Clock and Seafront rather than Morrisons).
62 replaces the 64 from Grangetown to Ings Farm then follows a revised route from there to New Marske and Marske
63 isn't changing its frequency - just revised times
64/64a will be running Middlesbrough-South Bank-Eston-Grangetown every 30 minutes each, with suggestions of interworking with X3/X3a - if so likely see X3/64/64a/X3a as the pattern and vice versa (ie do one of each Middlesbrough-Grangetown after arriving in on X3 or X3A)
Diverting the X4 to replace the 64 will bring the added complexity of having to route learn Whitby's driving staff on the route around Eston etc - the route they'll take through Dormanstown is effectively one long road which shouldn't confuse them too much)

(11 Feb 2020, 9:29 pm)scanialover wrote Redcar and Cleveland with a 36% drop in patronage ? Nothing to do with Arriva by any chance

Could do with Redcar Steel closing with 3,200 less people coming into the area aswell but it's easier to just blame the bus companies even known people have said bar the 81 it's mostly improvements which would affect Arriva as much everyone else in the area.

(10 Feb 2020, 4:31 pm)tvd wrote Every year the timetable changes come along, the PVR of depots is reduced.  Services are cut here and there, each time meaning a few more passengers are put off using buses or are forced to use other means of travel.  Then they complain that roads are getting busier and bus journeys take longer - Arriva are always trying to get councils to cough up and create bus priority lanes and so on.

I know they're running a commercial business which cant afford losses, but they need to be doing more to at least maintain services if not enhance them.  Cutting services too early on an evening may mean that a passenger wont travel into work in the morning by bus if he knows there's no bus to get home, so that's a passenger lost.  Cutting the 81 between Gbro and Stokesley loses a few more passengers that they wont get back.

Whatever happened to a bit of imaginative thinking in order to keep a service running?  Promote the 81 - use a special livery - have offers on fares - use Midibuses instead of full size vehicles - look at it the current route could be tweaked - or even go to 2 hourly for the full route to Stokesley? 

As much as I agree councils and national government could do more for the industry, I think the bus companies are far too quick to blame everything on them and go for the easiest short term option of cutting services instead of making genuine effort to do what they are in control of to maintain them.

Well said tvd

(12 Feb 2020, 9:21 am)Kuyoyo wrote On loan pending its return to Stockton


Ashington don't need it - it was being used by Ashington from a reserve position covering for 7513. Now the new 7510 has arrived, 1407 is surplus at Ashington and is needed back at Stockton as the depot technically never received an additional vehicle in August when the S1 was introduced on weekdays (and of course, when the X12 replaced it in October)

Yes they did. They kept 1410 which had been going to come off.

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(10 Feb 2020, 9:30 pm)tyresmoke wrote Its not much of a walk, maybe 5 minutes between the two stops at the very most, and the 5/5a are every 15 mins from Guisborough so you should never be waiting too long at Swans Corner. Not ideal but it can be done. Can't see NYCC funding a replacement.
To be honest I'm amazed the 81 has lasted this long, but most of the changes seem pretty positive in my eyes. Just not sure about chopping the 64 in Redcar. Agree about punctuality on the 63 and 64 though, and chopping them to every 12/15 won't help in that respect with same loads spread over less buses.

Can't see anything remotely positive about it. Cuts in services, cuts in frequencies and 'express' services ruined by diverting via longer routes.

(12 Feb 2020, 9:21 am)Kuyoyo wrote On loan pending its return to Stockton


Ashington don't need it - it was being used by Ashington from a reserve position covering for 7513. Now the new 7510 has arrived, 1407 is surplus at Ashington and is needed back at Stockton as the depot technically never received an additional vehicle in August when the S1 was introduced on weekdays (and of course, when the X12 replaced it in October)


The 62 is replacing the 64 in Redcar and the X3/X3a takes over from the 62. The X4 replaces the 62 in Dormanstown as well (doubling the number of buses through there to Middlesbrough and giving an improved journey time).


81 is still serving Marske Estate.
X3/X3A replaces the 62 between Dormanstown and Marske (though via Redcar Clock and Seafront rather than Morrisons).
62 replaces the 64 from Grangetown to Ings Farm then follows a revised route from there to New Marske and Marske
63 isn't changing its frequency - just revised times
64/64a will be running Middlesbrough-South Bank-Eston-Grangetown every 30 minutes each, with suggestions of interworking with X3/X3a - if so likely see X3/64/64a/X3a as the pattern and vice versa (ie do one of each Middlesbrough-Grangetown after arriving in on X3 or X3A)
Diverting the X4 to replace the 64 will bring the added complexity of having to route learn Whitby's driving staff on the route around Eston etc - the route they'll take through Dormanstown is effectively one long road which shouldn't confuse them too much)

I would have thought that in light of the improvements to the rail network between Saltburn, Redcar and Middlesbrough - that ANE would have made that stretch of the X3/X4 more of a competitive offer. 
Rather than it being less attractive and slower. 

(12 Feb 2020, 11:58 am)Storx wrote Could do with Redcar Steel closing with 3,200 less people coming into the area aswell but it's easier to just blame the bus companies even known people have said bar the 81 it's mostly improvements which would affect Arriva as much everyone else in the area.

I mentioned the external factors myself. Of which British Steel/SSI is. 

What have the operators done to mitigate any drop in passengers caused by that closure and maintain or increase numbers?

(12 Feb 2020, 12:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote I mentioned the external factors myself. Of which British Steel/SSI is. 

What have the operators done to mitigate any drop in passengers caused by that closure and maintain or increase numbers?

The problem is it could be irreversable if it's people coming from Middlesbrough to the Steelworks. There's no reason for people to travel into the area as there's not particular any reason for people to go to Redcar. If Middlesbrough's numbers are down the same percentage then you could say that.

I'm not defending Arriva (as they're nowhere near perfect if even good) but for all we know the numbers on the 62/64 might be down from Grangetown etc to Redcar but up towards Middlesbrough where people have found new jobs.

(12 Feb 2020, 1:21 pm)Storx wrote The problem is it could be irreversable if it's people coming from Middlesbrough to the Steelworks. There's no reason for people to travel into the area as there's not particular any reason for people to go to Redcar. If Middlesbrough's numbers are down the same percentage then you could say that.

I'm not defending Arriva (as they're nowhere near perfect if even good) but for all we know the numbers on the 62/64 might be down from Grangetown etc to Redcar but up towards Middlesbrough where people have found new jobs.

Of course. 
However, with cutting services, the network reducing and fares increasing - the argument could be that theyve not looked to replace that market lost with SSI/BS.

Where have they looked to grow an existing market or exploit an new market in an effective manner in the R&C area since SSI/BS and Viva changes?

(12 Feb 2020, 2:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote Of course. 
However, with cutting services, the network reducing and fares increasing - the argument could be that theyve not looked to replace that market lost with SSI/BS.

Where have they looked to grow an existing market or exploit an new market in an effective manner in the R&C area since SSI/BS and Viva changes?

Can't argue with that but that could be said mostly about most the North East really. The fact there's one bus that runs to Teesside Park which is the main the shopping area for Teesside pretty much sums up how outdated the network is down in Teesside to me then people wonder why everyone is driving. I don't know the Redcar area enough though to comment on it directly though.

It's a similar story with Silverlink and Team Valley which unless you like walking for miles you can't really get to without driving then the council wonder why they have traffic problems yet still approve extensions and more units at them. (All 3 have had new stuff built in the last couple years).

Now we read that the X4 is going to head through Dormanstown on its way to Whitby. What, please, does the letter "X" refer to here and why does Dormanstown need an enhanced service?

Obviously Attica's boffins have done their work with the forthcoming raft of changes but have they been there to experience the reality of the situation. Dare they face this reality? Talk to the customers, find out their views.

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Now we read that the X4 is going to head through Dormanstown on its way to Whitby. What, please, does the letter "X" refer to here and why does Dormanstown need an enhanced service?

Obviously Arrivas boffins havhe done their work with the forthcoming raft of changes but have they been there to experience the reality of the situation. Dare they face this reality? Talk to the customers, find out their views.

(12 Feb 2020, 7:36 pm)scanialover wrote Now we read that the X4 is going to head through Dormanstown on its way to Whitby. What, please, does the letter "X" refer to here and why does Dormanstown need an enhanced service?

Obviously Attica's boffins have done their work with the forthcoming raft of changes but have they been there to experience the reality of the situation. Dare they face this reality? Talk to the customers, find out their views.

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Now we read that the X4 is going to head through Dormanstown on its way to Whitby. What, please, does the letter "X" refer to here and why does Dormanstown need an enhanced service?

Obviously Arrivas boffins havhe done their work with the forthcoming raft of changes but have they been there to experience the reality of the situation. Dare they face this reality? Talk to the customers, find out their views.

Personally I don't see the point of the x4 going through dormanstown. The 64 should start and terminate at dormanstown and the 64a from grangetiwn r even extend the 81 to go through dormanstown to guisborough leaving the x4 to go from redcar direct to Middlesbrough and video versa

Of the forthcoming changes I've commented that the X4 should remain as it is presently. Whilst it isn't really the fastest connection between Middlesbrough and Whitby it does present the opportunity from those from Redcar, Saltburn etc to travel and then the only service serving the coastal corridor. Perhaps it should be promoted as such using dedicated vehicles?

The X93/X94 move is a good one.I've always been a devotee of promoting this service. The news (elsewhere) of the potential for these services to lose the vehicles that were bought particularly to cope with the demands along the route, is concerning. We hark back to the dark days when the Scania's were frequently overloaded and the E400's - a negative and typical Arriva move - were blighted with breakdowns; there is little to say about the use of Temsa Avenue's, if ever there was an inadequate vehicle. Bottom line is that 7401-6 must remain and additional, and comparable vehicles sourced to provide a dedicated PVR for the route. These vehicles should then be liveried AKA 7401 and the entire service promoted such.

Diverting the X4 through Dormanstown seems a ridiculous move to me. They've got an X3/X3A/X4 combined frequency of every 15 mins, non stop from Redcar to Middlesbrough. Fast and frequent services are what the public want these days, and here are Arriva tinkering about and adding yet more time to the journeys when instead they should've been promoting these selling points on the bus liveries, having special fares, new buses and so on.

With this and the 81 makes me think back to the old town service which ran between Marske Estate and Dormanstown. Bringing something like that back would be a better option, in my opinion, and not messing about wth the X4.

Another old service that worked was the X56. Ran limited stop from Whitby/Loftus to Middlesbrough for fast journeys, complimented with the 256 stopping everywhere. It was popular and ran every 30mins. Now we only have the 5's and X4's, both take a long time to get to Middlesbrough from East Cleveland. And a couple of token X5's running to a strange route early in the morning only.

Coastliner and Go North East invest in their long distance services, have much better vehicles and are always updating their fleet. Arriva on the other hand dont seem to have a clue how to attract people onto the buses or what passengers want and expect these days, have little investment and then are baffled when passenger numbers decline.

(13 Feb 2020, 9:24 am)tvd wrote Diverting the X4 through Dormanstown seems a ridiculous move to me.  They've got an X3/X3A/X4 combined frequency of every 15 mins, non stop  from Redcar to Middlesbrough.  Fast and frequent services are what the public want these days, and here are Arriva tinkering about and adding yet more time to the journeys when instead they should've been promoting these selling points on the bus liveries, having special fares, new buses and so on.

With this and the 81 makes me think back to the old town service which ran between Marske Estate and Dormanstown.  Bringing something like that back would be a better option, in my opinion, and not messing about wth the X4.

Another old service that worked was the X56.  Ran limited stop from Whitby/Loftus to Middlesbrough for fast journeys, complimented with the 256 stopping everywhere.  It was popular and ran every 30mins.  Now we only have the 5's and X4's, both take a long time to get to Middlesbrough from East Cleveland.  And a couple of token X5's running to a strange route early in the morning only.

Coastliner and Go North East invest in their long distance services, have much better vehicles and are always updating their fleet.  Arriva on the other hand dont seem to have a clue how to attract people onto the buses or what passengers want and expect these days,  have little investment and then are baffled when passenger numbers decline.

Agree. Even 7401-6, although providing much needed extra capacity over what went before, comfort wise aren't a patch on what Coastliner and GNE use. Has somebody said they are moving?

I'm sure I've seen it mentioned here that 7401-6 (BTL9's) were to be transferred and replaced with the E400's which were such a disaster last time round? But then isn't this Arriva all round! OK so the X93 isn't an all round earner but then it's a whole lot better than it used to be then, has been said, just look at the Coastliner operation. Smart, new vehicles, replaced regularly, promoted according and operated by pleasant, knowledgeable drivers. The idea works and works well.