(13 May 2020, 9:07 pm)Malarkey wrote ohh how I remember the days of Arriva operating what is now the 81/82 as the M3 in 2014, I specifically remember them operating through Barmston/Biddick several minutes early and then spending nearly 10 mins sitting at The Galleries heading towards Birtley, can see similar with GCT going forward and I do think they win a lot of contracts from the big 3 three year on year as they stipulate they'll use new fuel efficient buses, whereas if they matched what another operator was going to use vehicle wise then I think the latter would then keep the contract.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adammalarkey/14400906258/in/album-72157649335867148/

Aye, remember them having it for a year or two. Might be wrong, but I'm sure GNE then made it commercial for a bit, before they then said it wasn't sustainable and got Nexus to fund it again.

(13 May 2020, 9:07 pm)Malarkey wrote ohh how I remember the days of Arriva operating what is now the 81/82 as the M3 in 2014, I specifically remember them operating through Barmston/Biddick several minutes early and then spending nearly 10 mins sitting at The Galleries heading towards Birtley, can see similar with GCT going forward and I do think they win a lot of contracts from the big 3 three year on year as they stipulate they'll use new fuel efficient buses, whereas if they matched what another operator was going to use vehicle wise then I think the latter would then keep the contract.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adammalarkey/14400906258/in/album-72157649335867148/

I can see GCT being the bane of the GNE driver's lives at the Galleries on a night. 50A is due in on stand C at xx:27 and out at xx:29, either 81 or 82 is in at xx:30 and out at xx:32, then the 85 is in xx:32 and out at xx:34.

Bad enough now if the 50A is running a minute or two late as the next two normally get into the Galleries early and have always been told not to go on the stand until they've seen the 50A depart as they should have passed it coming in.

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(13 May 2020, 9:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote A new vehicle isn't necessarily a better vehicle from a passengers perspective though. I'd much rather have a 5 year old GNE Streetlite than a brand new base spec E200
Do GCT spec the likes of WiFi and USB on their new vehicles?

I'd agree with that, but only a mere 3% weighting of the bid is around 'enhanced customer experience' - which gives some indication of how little Nexus values these extra features. You could have the fastest Internet connection in the world, reclining seats and a sauna on board, but it would still only achieve a maximum of 3% of the weighting.

One thing that is rarely mentioned is the impact on effectively taking away next stop announcements from a service. I wonder if Nexus (or an operator for a commercial service) carry out any kind of equality impact assessment on this, as it would be interesting to see what the perceived impact is... comes back to making travel attractive, doesn't it? 

(13 May 2020, 11:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote Aye, remember them having it for a year or two. Might be wrong, but I'm sure GNE then made it commercial for a bit, before they then said it wasn't sustainable and got Nexus to fund it again.

It was the Concord to Heworth section that GNE kept commercially. They eventually replaced it with an increased service on the 4, which I think has now been reduced again?

The arrangement was that the Arriva M2/M3 would wait for the GNE connection at Concord for onward travel, and vice-versa.

(14 May 2020, 11:25 am)Adrian wrote I'd agree with that, but only a mere 3% weighting of the bid is around 'enhanced customer experience' - which gives some indication of how little Nexus values these extra features. You could have the fastest Internet connection in the world, reclining seats and a sauna on board, but it would still only achieve a maximum of 3% of the weighting.

One thing that is rarely mentioned is the impact on effectively taking away next stop announcements from a service. I wonder if Nexus (or an operator for a commercial service) carry out any kind of equality impact assessment on this, as it would be interesting to see what the perceived impact is... comes back to making travel attractive, doesn't it? 

I never thought about NSA (which is a first for me ).
I am genuinely surprised that NEXUS still aren't mandating it on new contracts, it doesn't just help those who are visually impaired etc. it's also very useful when you're visiting a new area and you know what stop you need to alight at, but have no clue where it is! When I'm using a service without it, I burn through so much battery having Google Maps open tracking where I am (which wouldn't be an issue if they had charging ports!)

(13 May 2020, 9:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote A new vehicle isn't necessarily a better vehicle from a passengers perspective though. I'd much rather have a 5 year old GNE Streetlite than a brand new base spec E200
Do GCT spec the likes of WiFi and USB on their new vehicles?

18/19 plate Fiats and 20 plate Mercs and ADL200MMC all have USB ports on them.

NO Wifi on any vehicle.

As 81/82/83/84 & 85/86 have to have a capacity of 36, then Solos or streetlites will be used.

(14 May 2020, 3:33 pm)park5354 wrote 18/19 plate Fiats and 20 plate Mercs and ADL200MMC all have USB ports on them.

NO Wifi on any vehicle.

As 81/82/83/84 & 85/86 have to have a capacity of 36, then Solos or streetlites will be used.

Genuinely surprised that they spent the extra on the USB ports!

(13 May 2020, 9:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote A new vehicle isn't necessarily a better vehicle from a passengers perspective though. I'd much rather have a 5 year old GNE Streetlite than a brand new base spec E200
Do GCT spec the likes of WiFi and USB on their new vehicles?

Don't forget that Washington's Solos do not have USB ports. WiFi and NSAs only.

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(14 May 2020, 4:15 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Genuinely surprised that they spent the extra on the USB ports!

They're likely all from dealer stock - especially to get them in service that quickly.

(14 May 2020, 4:15 pm)6049 wrote Don't forget that Washington's Solos do not have USB ports. WiFi and NSAs only.

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I get that they may not have had the highest spec vehicles on the route already, but my point was the age of a vehicle doesn't necessarily dictate how good it is from a customer perspective

(14 May 2020, 5:57 pm)tyresmoke wrote They're likely all from dealer stock - especially to get them in service that quickly.

That'll probably explain it, It would be very out of character for GCT to spend money on something that they're not contractually obliged to buy (and even then, they aren't exactly known for that either!)

(14 May 2020, 6:53 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I get that they may not have had the highest spec vehicles on the route already, but my point was the age of a vehicle doesn't necessarily dictate how good it is from a customer perspective


That'll probably explain it, It would be very out of character for GCT to spend money on something that they're not contractually obliged to buy (and even then, they aren't exactly known for that either!)

The E200's are probably Dawson Rentals motors to be honest

(14 May 2020, 7:10 pm)tyresmoke wrote The E200's are probably Dawson Rentals motors to be honest

Collected from Sheffield, I believe, and they were originally white.

(14 May 2020, 6:53 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I get that they may not have had the highest spec vehicles on the route already, but my point was the age of a vehicle doesn't necessarily dictate how good it is from a customer perspective

Totally agree, from Washington's perspective it's usually pretty clear cut and easy for passengers to understand. I'd imagine GCT will get some hassle occasionally (outside of current ticket acceptance arrangements) from people trying to get on the 37 and 73 with Red, Purple or Washington day tickets. It's likely to get more confusing if their buses accept the tickets on an evening when running the 80s but passengers see the same buses running on 37/73 during the day and won't accept the tickets.

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(14 May 2020, 8:04 pm)park5354 wrote Collected from Sheffield, I believe, and they were originally white.

That would make sense - Dawson’s are at Hellaby near Rotherham, just round the corner from CT Plus depot. There is a Plaxton repair/sales centre at Anston too of course.

If only Joe public knew that its because gne can't make enough profit on an evening and that's why the ticket can't be accepted

(15 May 2020, 7:21 am)idiot wrote If only Joe public knew that its because gne can't make enough profit on an evening and that's why the ticket can't be accepted

Well no one is able to make a profit on it which is why Nexus have to secure it, and ticket acceptance appears to have been agreed?

People wouldn't expect a shop to stay open late if no one used it so the same principle applies to buses.

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(15 May 2020, 8:18 am)6049 wrote Well no one is able to make a profit on it which is why Nexus have to secure it, and ticket acceptance appears to have been agreed?

People wouldn't expect a shop to stay open late if no one used it so the same principle applies to buses.

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If the shop wasn't proving popular, then it might look at a number of different things, including pricing structure and convenience. They certainly wouldn't see taxpayers support to let them stay open later. 

If these services aren't proving popular - then the question needs to be asked why.
Is the journey time? The frequency? The timetable? Pricing? Socio-economic factors? Something else? 
Once identified, those things need addressing. Just like the owners of the shop should do when they're looking at their business.
I can't see 'keeping it as it is' when it's not working, being too sustainable in the long run.

(15 May 2020, 8:54 am)Andreos1 wrote If the shop wasn't proving popular, then it might look at a number of different things, including pricing structure and convenience. They certainly wouldn't see taxpayers support to let them stay open later. 

If these services aren't proving popular - then the question needs to be asked why.
Is the journey time? The frequency? The timetable? Pricing? Socio-economic factors? Something else? 
Once identified, those things need addressing. Just like the owners of the shop should do when they're looking at their business.
I can't see 'keeping it as it is' when it's not working, being too sustainable in the long run.

The 135/136 run with a few passengers on, i dunno why they're still running, every area is covered where they run, well apart from Alexandra Avenue/North end of the Alexandra Bridge - on a Sunday they'll have no service but most of the office's are shut around those area's.

(15 May 2020, 8:54 am)Andreos1 wrote If the shop wasn't proving popular, then it might look at a number of different things, including pricing structure and convenience. They certainly wouldn't see taxpayers support to let them stay open later. 

If these services aren't proving popular - then the question needs to be asked why.
Is the journey time? The frequency? The timetable? Pricing? Socio-economic factors? Something else? 
Once identified, those things need addressing. Just like the owners of the shop should do when they're looking at their business.
I can't see 'keeping it as it is' when it's not working, being too sustainable in the long run.

Having been on the Washington minibuses, the simple reason is they travel between two or three shopping centres and interchanges on indirect routes which serve older populations who don't venture out as much on a night. If they do venture out, they have their pass which does not generate much money in small numbers. Therefore Nexus deem it worthy of support.

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(15 May 2020, 11:11 am)6049 wrote Having been on the Washington minibuses, the simple reason is they travel between two or three shopping centres and interchanges on indirect routes which serve older populations who don't venture out as much on a night. If they do venture out, they have their pass which does not generate much money in small numbers. Therefore Nexus deem it worthy of support.

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And that goes back to my points about what GNE could do to increase bums on seats? 
Are younger people not using it, because they're too infrequent? Is it because it's not taking them where they need to be? Is it because taxis in Washington are king? Is it down to the connections or facilities at Concord or the Galleries and the timetables not connecting to other buses?
There's so many factors at play, other than just that it goes between the different shopping centres, indirectly and its handy for the older population getting to the Westwood.

(15 May 2020, 11:28 am)Andreos1 wrote And that goes back to my points about what GNE could do to increase bums on seats? 
Are younger people not using it, because they're too infrequent? Is it because it's not taking them where they need to be? Is it because taxis in Washington are king? Is it down to the connections or facilities at Concord or the Galleries and the timetables not connecting to other buses?
There's so many factors at play, other than just that it goes between the different shopping centres, indirectly and its handy for the older population getting to the Westwood.

Some of the kids do use them, again though the majority have CAT tickets which don't bring in much money as it's subsidised travel as well.

The main routes - i.e. the 4 and X1 do retain enough custom on a night most of the time. However, because the 4 especially runs almost directly through the centre of Washington many choose to just walk to or from that route home. It's only really if you live in Barmston, Ayton, Blackfell, Rickleton, Harraton or Teal Farm that you would require a connection- and with the exception of Teal Farm, all are served at least half hourly throughout the day.

At least in my experience


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(15 May 2020, 11:37 am)6049 wrote Some of the kids do use them, again though the majority have CAT tickets which don't bring in much money as it's subsidised travel as well.

The main routes - i.e. the 4 and X1 do retain enough custom on a night most of the time. However, because the 4 especially runs almost directly through the centre of Washington many choose to just walk to or from that route home. It's only really if you live in Barmston, Ayton, Blackfell, Rickleton, Harraton or Teal Farm that you would require a connection- and with the exception of Teal Farm, all are served at least half hourly throughout the day.

At least in my experience


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I think you make some good points there and I agree about the 4 and X1, but if you're coming from Teal Farm and heading to Newcastle for a night out or meal, are you really going to hang around at the galleries waiting for connections there and back? Depending on your timings, you could be waiting the best part of a 30mins, just to get a bus to Newcastle. Dread to think what it would be like coming back, but guessing it could be the best part of an hour hanging around once they're off the X1. 
There's 90mins of an evening hanging around, plus travel time. 

At the Birtley end, you have problems during the day with punters on the new estate unable to get a bus down to Durham Road. They can get a bus up, but again, there's no incentive for them to use public transport - particularly if they can only use it in one direction. 
Similarly, if you're in Barley Mow, you have a regular bus during the day, but might have to walk to/from Portobello Road on a night to get anywhere. 

There's three barriers that I can think of straight away, that once removed or changed - could have a positive impact. 
Instead, they're left as they are. Yet people wonder why the buses need subsidies and why numbers are low.

(15 May 2020, 11:49 am)Andreos1 wrote I think you make some good points there and I agree about the 4 and X1, but if you're coming from Teal Farm and heading to Newcastle for a night out or meal, are you really going to hang around at the galleries waiting for connections there and back? Depending on your timings, you could be waiting the best part of a 30mins, just to get a bus to Newcastle. Dread to think what it would be like coming back, but guessing it could be the best part of an hour hanging around once they're off the X1. 
There's 90mins of an evening hanging around, plus travel time. 

At the Birtley end, you have problems during the day with punters on the new estate unable to get a bus down to Durham Road. They can get a bus up, but again, there's no incentive for them to use public transport - particularly if they can only use it in one direction. 
Similarly, if you're in Barley Mow, you have a regular bus during the day, but might have to walk to/from Portobello Road on a night to get anywhere. 

There's three barriers that I can think of straight away, that once removed or changed - could have a positive impact. 
Instead, they're left as they are. Yet people wonder why the buses need subsidies and why numbers are low.

The Teal Farm connection is correct heading towards Newcastle. You would miss the X1 by around 4 or 5mins. The return is better. If you get the X1 on the hour from Newcastle, there's only a 5mins wait for the 86 returning to Teal Farm. Teal Farm is the oddity of GNE in Washington as it's about the only place not served during the day. This is another part of the system where integrated ticketing would benefit passengers - you'd have to buy a single on the 37 and then buy a Purple day ticket or buy a Day Rover.

The Birtley end, I agree with. The problem is partly down to the layout of Birtley, there's nowhere to turn the bus round unless you moved the terminus to Mount Pleasant. However, then you run into another problem where you'd be turning the bus up Harris Bank which is a nasty enough road to come down before they put the traffic management in.

The main problem is that an increase in frequency may be beneficial in the long term to increaae passenger numbers, but in the short term they'd be unsustainable to do unless subsidised which is unlikely. So we're in a vicious circle which doesn't benefit anyone and is hard to break out of.

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(15 May 2020, 12:20 pm)6049 wrote The Teal Farm connection is correct heading towards Newcastle. You would miss the X1 by around 4 or 5mins. The return is better. If you get the X1 on the hour from Newcastle, there's only a 5mins wait for the 86 returning to Teal Farm. Teal Farm is the oddity of GNE in Washington as it's about the only place not served during the day. This is another part of the system where integrated ticketing would benefit passengers - you'd have to buy a single on the 37 and then buy a Purple day ticket or buy a Day Rover.

The Birtley end, I agree with. The problem is partly down to the layout of Birtley, there's nowhere to turn the bus round unless you moved the terminus to Mount Pleasant. However, then you run into another problem where you'd be turning the bus up Harris Bank which is a nasty enough road to come down before they put the traffic management in.

The main problem is that an increase in frequency may be beneficial in the long term to increaae passenger numbers, but in the short term they'd be unsustainable to do unless subsidised which is unlikely. So we're in a vicious circle which doesn't benefit anyone and is hard to break out of.

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So getting back to Teal Farm is do-able, assuming you get the xx.00 X1 back and there's no delays on the trip?
I take your points about Teal Farm, but to me that shows how fragmented the system is. 
How about Blackfell, Harraton or Lambton and the same journey to/from Newcastle? 

As for Birtley, I think there are many options.
Harras Bank was served in both directions for a good while. The white lines outside the doctors heading down the hill were moved back, so buses could head up. 
There was the circular style service which operated in alternate patterns around Birtley.
Then there could be all sorts of alternative routes in and around Birtley that ensure you can get to and from certain parts and avoid Harras Bank. 

Whether its frequency, changed timings, variationst to routes, ticket integration or whatever else - between us, we've identified a number of problems and possible causes to low numbers and the need to have it subsidised (without even getting on to the should it be/shouldn't it be question). 
The question now, is whether anything will be done (innovative or not) or if we just see a constant repeat of what we see now till the money runs out.

(15 May 2020, 2:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote So getting back to Teal Farm is do-able, assuming you get the xx.00 X1 back and there's no delays on the trip?
I take your points about Teal Farm, but to me that shows how fragmented the system is. 
How about Blackfell, Harraton or Lambton and the same journey to/from Newcastle? 

As for Birtley, I think there are many options.
Harras Bank was served in both directions for a good while. The white lines outside the doctors heading down the hill were moved back, so buses could head up. 
There was the circular style service which operated in alternate patterns around Birtley.
Then there could be all sorts of alternative routes in and around Birtley that ensure you can get to and from certain parts and avoid Harras Bank. 

Whether its frequency, changed timings, variationst to routes, ticket integration or whatever else - between us, we've identified a number of problems and possible causes to low numbers and the need to have it subsidised (without even getting on to the should it be/shouldn't it be question). 
The question now, is whether anything will be done (innovative or not) or if we just see a constant repeat of what we see now till the money runs out.

X1 is due in at Galleries from Newcastle at xx:57 and xx:27, the 81/82 is due out at xx:02 and xx:32 while the 85/86 heading to Blackfell is out at xx:04 and xx:34. Off the top of my head, the 86 to Teal Farm is due out at xx:37, apart from the last one which leaves at 23:33 I think. So providing the X1 is on time, there should always be a connection there for Ayton, Lambton, Blackfell, Oxclose, Biddick and Teal Farm.

Heading the other way towards Barmston and Concord, there's about a 20min wait after arriving on an X1.

It'll be interesting to see how the current crisis will impact on passenger numbers in the long term. It could well be that if frequencies are increased to match social distancing capacity, we may see a resurgence in bus travel as it becomes a more attractive option.

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(13 May 2020, 9:07 am)streetdeckfan wrote https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/nexus-contract-service-changes-17-may-2020

Looks like ticket acceptance has been agreed

1 additional change added


Service 391

Unfortunately, this service will no longer operate

(14 May 2020, 11:25 am)Adrian wrote One thing that is rarely mentioned is the impact on effectively taking away next stop announcements from a service. I wonder if Nexus (or an operator for a commercial service) carry out any kind of equality impact assessment on this, as it would be interesting to see what the perceived impact is... comes back to making travel attractive, doesn't it?

I've remained fairly quiet on the award of these contracts to Gateshead Central Taxis and the impact this may have on passengers. According to the Financial Times, local authority bus funding in England has been cut by more than 40% in the past decade. With that in mind, one could perhaps forgive Nexus for usually opting to award contracts based on best value, rather than what's best for passengers (more services running with "breadvans" without all the bells and whistles is cheaper, so is more sustainable to keep providing the same levels of service as now, if these routes aren't ever to become commercially viable). I don't think their level of funding is guaranteed so it's likely because of this that they cannot often offer contracts for more than one year (despite the fact this 'security' for operators would probably mean they could offer a better price, and likely also procure new vehicles for the service, in turn offering better value to the local authority).

Most people on this forum already know that one of my roles at Go North East is to program the audio-visual announcements, and in my time doing that job, I've spoken to representatives from various charities and indeed to passengers themselves who are visually-impaired. It's striking how much independence this system gives visually-impaired passengers, and how much they value the system. Whilst late evening journeys are unlikely to be a massive issue for them, the daytime provision on Sundays could well impact them, and it's rather unfair that this likely leaves those passengers "stranded".

Wi-Fi and USB charging points are great features, and their provision has been seen to attract growth elsewhere on daytime commercial services (so is certainly attractive to bus users), but these are 'niceties' in my opinion and many large groups are now seeing that the provision of 'next stop' audio-visual announcements is now a must in terms of accessibility. It would be good to see contractual requirements adjusted to reflect that this must be provided, but I feel it'd really prevent many of the smaller operators from being able to tender (the equipment is very expensive, then time-consuming for the person(s) managing the system) and again this would likely increase tender submission prices and we go back to the point about local authority bus funding.

As of last month, Nexus has now started to include weighting on contracts for Metro Replacement if audio-visual announcements are provided. Go North East are the only operator set up to do this at the moment, but hopefully it would entice others to follow suit.

What many of the large groups have spent lots of money on over the last few years in particular is developing their real-time information systems, mobile apps etc, which allow bus users to track their bus and plan their journey in advance. It struck me this morning when I was planning my bike ride this afternoon (in order to obtain a couple of photos of the new Gateshead Central Taxis workings) that I could no longer track these journeys in real time, nor could I see them on a live map. On evening journeys in particular I think this is a huge loss to passengers on these services. Those using these late evening journeys are likely to be those who have been out to the pub for a few drinks. I know in my experience if I'm travelling by bus home, I no longer go to the bus stop five minutes before its scheduled arrival time, I check the app to see where the bus is, if it's on-time, and leave the pub based on that information. It may be a generational thing and I'm sure not everyone will do this, but for me this would be another big loss.

What was the passenger numbers like on a Sunday, for the 135/136 during day time?, I've used the 135 after 8pm and its always empty so not surprised its funded by NEXUS however I'm still surprised to read the 39 still isn't busy on a night.

One thing that is quite strange, now GCT have taken back over the evening/Sunday routes in North Tyneside but are operating at a much higher frequency than Monday-Saturday day times.

The 11 is two hourly Monday-Saturday day time, yet half hourly evenings and Sunday. The 19 and 41 are hourly Monday-Saturday daytime, yet half hourly evenings and Sundays,

You'd think Nexus would maybe follow this, potentially saving a bit of cash.

(17 May 2020, 10:09 am)Michael wrote What was the passenger numbers like on a Sunday, for the 135/136 during day time?, I've used the 135 after 8pm and its always empty so not surprised its funded by NEXUS however I'm still surprised to read the 39 still isn't busy on a night.

Sunday daytime it normally is quiet, you can often do entire trips with no passengers, but there can be some where you can actually get a decent load, although that might be if a 35A is running late.

The 39 is very quiet on a night on the areas of the route it doesn't share with the 2, but once again, depends on if other buses are running late. Honestly the late 39s weren't very popular for Deptford drivers due to tight running times, especially if you catch people who could have gotten a 2 in the city centre. It's never busy on the Pennywell side, and after Ryhope heading to Doxy.

(17 May 2020, 10:28 am)deanmachine wrote Sunday daytime it normally is quiet, you can often do entire trips with no passengers, but there can be some where you can actually get a decent load, although that might be if a 35A is running late.

The 39 is very quiet on a night on the areas of the route it doesn't share with the 2, but once again, depends on if other buses are running late. Honestly the late 39s weren't very popular for Deptford drivers due to tight running times, especially if you catch people who could have gotten a 2 in the city centre. It's never busy on the Pennywell side, and after Ryhope heading to Doxy.

Ahtl right cheers

Shame GNE don't want to the 39/135/136 on a commercial bases... they could even change them to fit in with their own network.


Does anyone know what Gateshead Central Taxi's are using on the 135/136 and the 39 later.