(07 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm)Adrian wrote I think its worth pointing out that this appears to be rife across multiple operators - its not specific to one operator, and I'd actually say GNE have been one of the better operators in terms of signage and such.

What doesn't help is that the guidelines from Government aren't great. There's too much room for interpretation and in my opinion they aren't strict enough. Face coverings are there to protect others - not the wearer. If someone isn't able to wear a mask for whatever reason, that is fine, but they must remain 2m apart from others. People just don't seem to understand this and that the coverings are mitigation for 1m+

I travelled by LNER last week and I thought what they have done, at least on paper, is spot on. All services requiring a mandatory reservation, then only certain seats being available to book. This is of course all good and well, but then you're told that the Guard will spend the entirety of the journey in their own non-public coach, so in reality seat occupation and face coverings aren't enforced.

On the flip-side of that, you have Transpennine Express. Contained in a laughably named page of 'Keeping You Safe', they state: "Due to social distancing guidelines, there will be space for no more than half the usual number of passengers and it may not be possible to socially distance at all points throughout a journey." They are not forcing seat reservations, restricting capacity or anything else.

I completely understand why drivers aren't challenging this. Certainly from GNE, Arriva and Metro's responses I've seen on Social Media, they're suggesting that they *cannot* enforce this. This is incorrect though - operators do have the powers of enforcement under the regulations, but also points out that they're not obliged to use those powers. So this isn't a case of *cannot* - it's a case of *will not*. If the operators have made that operational decision, then we as customers cannot expect their employees to enforce. I posted about this in another thread.

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I've found GNE buses and the Metro to be notably cleaner, if I'm honest. Certainly at the start of the day. GNE made quite a good video around it: https://youtu.be/dMcL1Iv2fms

Likewise, National Express have done some good work around it: https://www.nationalexpress.com/en/help/...assessment

Ones an intercity operator (LNER), the rest are commuter services. It's very hard to limit tickets and force reservations on routes which have serious capacity problems at the peaks as it is. You might aswell get people moving even without proper social distancing for 10 minutes rather than having platforms overcrowded, no-one moving anywhere and Leeds concourse just jammed with people trying to get on trains for hours on end. It's wrong but there's no way around it - if someone lives at Huddersfield and needs to be at work at Leeds or Manchester there's very little alternatives if they don't/wont drive. It's the same with the Metro really.

Also the Metro isn't cleaned at all from personal experience, if you open a window you get a handful of black dust which has been there for months. The same as above the handrails which go horizontal. Both of which are touch points imo. They're never cleaned though in usual times and hasn't changed now.

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Instead of putting an opinion I'm going to put a question instead to get a point of why nothing is enforced for those who want the enforcement. How do you expect a bus driver to enforce someone to wear a mask if the customer says no and goes upstairs with a day ticket or return?

It's easy to say stuff behind a computer screen but in reality it's not as easy as said. It's same on a train - how do you expect the train guard to remove a customer for not wearing a mask with a valid ticket?

(07 Sep 2020, 3:49 pm)Storx wrote Also the Metro isn't cleaned at all from personal experience, if you open a window you get a handful of black dust which has been there for months. The same as above the handrails which go horizontal. Both of which are touch points imo. They're never cleaned though in usual times and hasn't changed now.

I haven't used public transport much since March (not because I don't want to, just that I've had no need to).

I have used the Metro a handful of times now and I've been really impressed with how the standard of cleaning has vastly improved. In all instances there has been a notable 'clean' smell.

(07 Sep 2020, 3:49 pm)Storx wrote Ones an intercity operator (LNER), the rest are commuter services. It's very hard to limit tickets and force reservations on routes which have serious capacity problems at the peaks as it is. You might aswell get people moving even without proper social distancing for 10 minutes rather than having platforms overcrowded, no-one moving anywhere and Leeds concourse just jammed with people trying to get on trains for hours on end. It's wrong but there's no way around it - if someone lives at Huddersfield and needs to be at work at Leeds or Manchester there's very little alternatives if they don't/wont drive. It's the same with the Metro really.

Also the Metro isn't cleaned at all from personal experience, if you open a window you get a handful of black dust which has been there for months. The same as above the handrails which go horizontal. Both of which are touch points imo. They're never cleaned though in usual times and hasn't changed now.

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Instead of putting an opinion I'm going to put a question instead to get a point of why nothing is enforced for those who want the enforcement. How do you expect a bus driver to enforce someone to wear a mask if the customer says no and goes upstairs with a day ticket or return?

It's easy to say stuff behind a computer screen but in reality it's not as easy as said. It's same on a train - how do you expect the train guard to remove a customer for not wearing a mask with a valid ticket?

Sorry, I might be missing something, but I don't understand the relevance of one being an 'Intercity operator' and the other not. Regardless of definition, the passenger numbers simply aren't there at the moment, with so many still working from home. From reports I've read though, people seem to be refusing to change travel patterns still and rushing for peak trains. There's absolutely no reason why a reservation system could not be enforced, other than down to the willingness to do so. 

This has been a relatively constructive debate thus far, so I don't think we need to go down the route of suggesting people are hiding behind a computer screen. In answer to your question though, I actually think that most 'offenders', at least to face coverings, would comply out of sheer shock of being challenged. Nobody likes to be challenged on something they're doing wrong and I'm confident this would the vast majority of instances.

I've barely used buses and yet the ones I've been on, I've seen face coverings: hung off one ear, warming the wearer's chin, worn as a bandanna, worn under the nose, and so on. It would not take much to point out to passengers that they need to wear their face coverings correctly, but the operators need to empower their staff to do that. Whilst they're making the choice to not enforce, I don't blame staff for not doing it either. It needs to be an instruction from top down. 

Even in the cases of someone refusing to comply, there are options available. I've seen both buses and trains significantly held back at stations to wait for the police because someone has refused to pay their fare. I've even seen a bus held at a bus station for 20+ minutes because a couple of Sunderland's finest decided to crack open a couple bottles of White Lightning or whatever the tipple of choice is these days. I don't think you'd ever go that far down the line over a face covering, and I wouldn't want to see it personally, but I think this highlights that it comes down to a willingness to enforce as operators.

(07 Sep 2020, 2:33 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I totally disagree. both are conditions of travel. If you want to travel, you have to pay, and wear a face covering. 
People 'exempt' from paying are those with a concessionary pass, so something similar should be in place for those exempt from wearing a face covering.

I do agree that it's impossible to enforce, but not even having the illusion of enforcement is where the issue lies. If they don't challenge anyone, people are going to continue to avoid wearing them. If they ask you every time you board without wearing one, then soon enough you're going to get sick (hopefully not literally) and just start wearing one.

How can you totally disagree with me by agreeing???? 

(07 Sep 2020, 4:05 pm)Dan wrote I haven't used public transport much since March (not because I don't want to, just that I've had no need to).

I have used the Metro a handful of times now and I've been really impressed with how the standard of cleaning has vastly improved. In all instances there has been a notable 'clean' smell.

Guessing I just caught a bad train then, I admit I haven't been on much; been avoiding the Metro really as it went tits up and it's 50/50 going via bus or Metro so just been using the bus instead when needed.

(07 Sep 2020, 4:40 pm)Adrian wrote Sorry, I might be missing something, but I don't understand the relevance of one being an 'Intercity operator' and the other not. Regardless of definition, the passenger numbers simply aren't there at the moment, with so many still working from home. From reports I've read though, people seem to be refusing to change travel patterns still and rushing for peak trains. There's absolutely no reason why a reservation system could not be enforced, other than down to the willingness to do so. 

This has been a relatively constructive debate thus far, so I don't think we need to go down the route of suggesting people are hiding behind a computer screen. In answer to your question though, I actually think that most 'offenders', at least to face coverings, would comply out of sheer shock of being challenged. Nobody likes to be challenged on something they're doing wrong and I'm confident this would the vast majority of instances.

I've barely used buses and yet the ones I've been on, I've seen face coverings: hung off one ear, warming the wearer's chin, worn as a bandanna, worn under the nose, and so on. It would not take much to point out to passengers that they need to wear their face coverings correctly, but the operators need to empower their staff to do that. Whilst they're making the choice to not enforce, I don't blame staff for not doing it either. It needs to be an instruction from top down. 

Even in the cases of someone refusing to comply, there are options available. I've seen both buses and trains significantly held back at stations to wait for the police because someone has refused to pay their fare. I've even seen a bus held at a bus station for 20+ minutes because a couple of Sunderland's finest decided to crack open a couple bottles of White Lightning or whatever the tipple of choice is these days. I don't think you'd ever go that far down the line over a face covering, and I wouldn't want to see it personally, but I think this highlights that it comes down to a willingness to enforce as operators.

The stopping patterns and the stations they serve mainly, it's easy to enforce a reservation system when your only stopping at a few major stations ie. Newcastle, York, Darlington, Durham etc which are all staffed and have ways to purchase tickets at the station and do reservations within the station with only 5 minutes to go which you can do with LNER now. Once you start serving stations like Seamer, Marsden, Chester Le Street, Meadowhall, Habrough etc it starts to get a lot more complicated especially when half the stations your lucky they having a working ticket machine which I don't believe can do reservations at all so your effectively saying, unless you pay online you can't travel with us and you must have a ticket bought a day in advance (they still use paper reservations). I could be wrong here but I believe guards have been told not to check tickets at all hence how someone spent 2 hours on a Crosscountry train lately deceased, it's pretty much common knowledge trains are free atm for those who don't want to pay.

In terms of the drivers there are some who already are challenging people over masks but it really depends on the person. I didn't mean the computer comment as offence to anyone btw but it's kind of true there'll be drivers who just don't want to cause any form of confrontation and the idea of having to tell people to wear masks with the chance that 1/50 might be an absolute arse and kick up a fuss when your trapped in a corner will be daunting to them. I can guarentee there will be a drivers if you went on with a child ticket when your 40 wont say anything but then some will. The only realistic way you could enforce is to change the terms and conditions and introduce a penalty for not wearing a mask and leaving it down to the RP team to enforce (but they're pretty much non existant - it would work for the Metro though).

(07 Sep 2020, 10:00 am)Storx wrote Supposedly it wasn't, there's someone posting on RTG, who's the mate of the person who caused it, and it's supposed to be worse than what's been said so far but he doesn't want to say more as the usual internet trolls are out with pitchforks against the poor kid. I know it's 28 directly from it so far but it's going to be more.

No doubt be another club closed down soon and deservably so.

Supposedly:

Plains farm academy
Pennywell youth project
Mama Mia Italians
Ttonic
Burnside social club
Salt house kitchen
St Roberts School (6th Form yr12/13)
Hastings hill
Red Hairdressers
The Scullery (Pier Point)
Easington Lane Primary School
Shiney primary
Grill n chill (Seaham)
Dubmire nursery

All of those have had cases in the past few days in Sunderland alone aswell and all have been shut and there's more being added all the time.

Another to add to the list is Penshaw Catholic Club. 
Remind me to stay away from the 4. It passes several of these places!

There's been a number of statements following on from the Burnside Club story.
One statement refutes the 300 in attendance and another goes on about 'if they knew then, what they know now...'

(08 Sep 2020, 9:10 am)Andreos1 wrote Another to add to the list is Penshaw Catholic Club. 
Remind me to stay away from the 4. It passes several of these places!

There's been a number of statements following on from the Burnside Club story.
One statement refutes the 300 in attendance and another goes on about 'if they knew then, what they know now...'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/s...lf-isolate

There's the Guardian story.

Have the FPF been engaging in biological warfare?

(08 Sep 2020, 9:13 am)MurdnunoC wrote https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/s...lf-isolate

There's the Guardian story.

Have the FPF been engaging in biological warfare?

The FPF released a statement strongly condeming the behaviour shown by some on the afternoon of 30th August.
They destroyed all known biological weapons which were known to be held by members, during the peace process introduced in 2015.

(08 Sep 2020, 9:10 am)Andreos1 wrote Another to add to the list is Penshaw Catholic Club. 
Remind me to stay away from the 4. It passes several of these places!

There's been a number of statements following on from the Burnside Club story.
One statement refutes the 300 in attendance and another goes on about 'if they knew then, what they know now...'

It's bleak down there like; supposed they're in triple figures with people having it. It seems there's been a separate spreading in Houghton-le-spring at the same time.

Someone posted these photos on GNE's timeline this morning, complaining that it was impossible to socially distance. The bus is a 50 to Durham.



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(10 Sep 2020, 9:53 am)Adrian wrote Someone posted these photos on GNE's timeline this morning, complaining that it was impossible to socially distance. The bus is a 50 to Durham.

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Id not seen that. 
Noticed this one though: https://www.facebook.com/215880875709/po...sn=scwspmo&extid=l1zTqNMneaYdtxTK

Seemingly they've taken an earlier board off and now (in times of social-distancing), passengers are experiencing a full bus on the subsequent run.

(10 Sep 2020, 10:13 am)Andreos1 wrote Id not seen that. 
Noticed this one though: https://www.facebook.com/215880875709/po...sn=scwspmo&extid=l1zTqNMneaYdtxTK

Seemingly they've taken an earlier board off and now (in times of social-distancing), passengers are experiencing a full bus on the subsequent run.

This stock response is bloody awful. Its not even an answer to the question: 

"Our capacity for each bus is reduced at the moment due to social distancing. We are monitoring passenger numbers daily and should there be any recurring issues we'll look at providing further journeys. I will pass your feedback on thanks for letting us know."

There seems to be a few of these popping up and it’s not easy to manage for Go North East, but I think the rules maybe are being relaxed a little too soon and now we’re seeing the the rest of Tyne & Wear (apart from North Tyneside) joining South Tyneside and Middlesbrough on the Government Covid Watch List, I think GNE need to get on top on this soon - otherwise passengers aren’t going to feel confident or safe using buses.

Arriva North East put something out earlier, which isn't exactly confidence boosting:

"We’ve had several queries regarding our dedicated school bus services, so we wanted to reassure you that we are working in line with government guidelines, students should socially distance on the bus, if there is space to do so, if not, students can use all the available capacity on the bus, as they would pre-covid. Social distancing still applies when boarding and alighting, with non-exempt students over 11 required to wear a face-covering. We thank you for your cooperation."

https://www.facebook.com/arrivanortheast...2494006173

It's no wonder people are confused! If I had kids, they would not be using a scholars bus 'as they would pre-covid', knowing how packed some of them become. It's as if social distancing has now become an aspiration, rather than a requirement. 

n.b. before someone points it out, I know it's in line with the DfE guidance - but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

(11 Sep 2020, 3:12 pm)Drifter60 wrote There seems to be a few of these popping up and it’s not easy to manage for Go North East, but I think the rules maybe are being relaxed a little too soon and now we’re seeing the the rest of Tyne & Wear (apart from North Tyneside) joining South Tyneside and Middlesbrough on the Government Covid Watch List, I think GNE need to get on top on this soon - otherwise passengers aren’t going to feel confident or safe using buses.

The numbers being reported though (even accounting for the fact that people are going to be more likely to moan than praise) suggests this is more than the odd rare occurrence.  While I totally understand they cannot guess the correct capacity needed for every single journey every time, there seems to be an alarmingly laissez faire attitude from the company (based on posts and replies on their own social media) which shows a worrying lack of insight into the risk they are perpetuating. 

As I said elsewhere, by allowing passengers to board to the levels reported in a number of posts (strangers having to sit next to each other, standing passengers etc) the company may think they are helping by not leaving people stranded, but actually are simply making it easier for the virus to spread, doing precisely noone any favours in the long run.  The company responses on social media about moniroting in case it becomes a regular problem completely and absolutely misses the point of social distancing.   Even Boris hasn't yet stooped to saying it's ok to only socially distance most of the time.  There is no reasonable excuse for allowing more passengers to board once e.g. each row is occupied (arguably that isnt spaced out enough - but letting that slide even) but that appears to be exactly what has happened to result in standing passengers. 

There should be a much stronger statements from the company that this is unacceptable and assurance that it will be investigated to prevent it from happening again.  Of course there is always the perverse incentive to maximise reveneue to recoup losses incurred this year...which is most easily done by maximising passenger numbers per vehicle of course...

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(11 Sep 2020, 4:54 pm)Adrian wrote Arriva North East put something out earlier, which isn't exactly confidence boosting:

"We’ve had several queries regarding our dedicated school bus services, so we wanted to reassure you that we are working in line with government guidelines, students should socially distance on the bus, if there is space to do so, if not, students can use all the available capacity on the bus, as they would pre-covid. Social distancing still applies when boarding and alighting, with non-exempt students over 11 required to wear a face-covering. We thank you for your cooperation."

https://www.facebook.com/arrivanortheast...2494006173

It's no wonder people are confused! If I had kids, they would not be using a scholars bus 'as they would pre-covid', knowing how packed some of them become. It's as if social distancing has now become an aspiration, rather than a requirement. 

n.b. before someone points it out, I know it's in line with the DfE guidance - but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

That arriva quote sounds eerily like it was written by the same kind of mind as the "go to work dont go to work unless you can work from home then you should go to work" nonsense we all had to try to make sense of a few months ago.

On the bit in bold - couldn't agree more, and the impact is already being seen in the rates shooting up, and the fatalistic "inevitable we will have lots of sad deaths from covid this winter" messaging starting from the government propaganda machine.

Governments force children into their herd immunity masterplan, bus companies get it in the neck.

Maybe if public transport spending hadn't been continually cut for years, the industry would be able to cope better with spikes in demand such as this.

(11 Sep 2020, 5:18 pm)mb134 wrote Governments force children into their herd immunity masterplan, bus companies get it in the neck.

Maybe if public transport spending hadn't been continually cut for years, the industry would be able to cope better with spikes in demand such as this.

Why should bus companies get any money? They're a business who make millions of pounds of profit a year...

In the interests of balance - Stagecoach appear to be no better... not from up here, but the photos and videos on this post are shocking. The journey in question is one of the scholars (so we all pretend COVID can't board those buses) but at the way they are pcked in it's like society is actively aiming for a second wave!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/22701931...428360249/

(11 Sep 2020, 5:37 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote In the interests of balance - Stagecoach appear to be no better... not from up here, but the photos and videos on this post are shocking.  The journey in question is one of the scholars (so we all pretend COVID can't board those buses) but at the way they are pcked in it's like society is actively aiming for a second wave!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/22701931...428360249/

They can't exactly leave kids standing at the side of the road though can they? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The X20 currently needs a bigger bus then a solo it was full before it left Durham

(11 Sep 2020, 5:55 pm)deanmachine wrote They can't exactly leave kids standing at the side of the road though can they? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Exactly, MG said that scholars services will even have a pack of masks on board to give out to people without them as they can't be leaving anyone behind.

(11 Sep 2020, 6:13 pm)Ds1197 wrote The X20 currently needs a bigger bus then a solo it was full before it left Durham

From Monday, service X20 will be operated by single-deck buses instead of minibuses.


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(11 Sep 2020, 8:41 pm)Dan wrote From Monday, service X20 will be operated by single-deck buses instead of minibuses.


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Where will the X-Line solo's go?, wonder if the Single deckers will be the Red Kite Streetlites?

(11 Sep 2020, 5:55 pm)deanmachine wrote They can't exactly leave kids standing at the side of the road though can they? Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

It just proves the point that a wider return to Education and the workplace isn't safe. Not when there isn't a practical way to safely ensure that public transport is available.

The source of the issue is that the Government guidance is appalling, but contribution to the chaos will always draw criticism. I acknowledge that you cannot leave kids standing at the side of the road, but I'd also point out that it is the responsibility of the local authorities to provide home-to-school transport - not the bus operators. The local authorities should be providing a solution, not asking or expecting the operators to provide an unsafe environment for travel.

(11 Sep 2020, 8:56 pm)Adrian wrote It just proves the point that a wider return to Education and the workplace isn't safe. Not when there isn't a practical way to safely ensure that public transport is available.

The source of the issue is that the Government guidance is appalling, but contribution to the chaos will always draw criticism. I acknowledge that you cannot leave kids standing at the side of the road, but I'd also point out that it is the responsibility of the local authorities to provide home-to-school transport - not the bus operators. The local authorities should be providing a solution, not asking or expecting the operators to provide an unsafe environment for travel.

I wonder if we'll see a temporary adjustment in accessibility regulations to allow older, less accessible vehicles to re-enter service to increase capacity.

(11 Sep 2020, 8:56 pm)Adrian wrote It just proves the point that a wider return to Education and the workplace isn't safe. Not when there isn't a practical way to safely ensure that public transport is available.

The source of the issue is that the Government guidance is appalling, but contribution to the chaos will always draw criticism. I acknowledge that you cannot leave kids standing at the side of the road, but I'd also point out that it is the responsibility of the local authorities to provide home-to-school transport - not the bus operators. The local authorities should be providing a solution, not asking or expecting the operators to provide an unsafe environment for travel.

Surely a simple solution would be to stagger school times. For example have one school from 9am - 3pm, another 9:30am - 3.30pm, another 10am - 4pm then another 10:30am - 4:30pm. Least it means the school buses are able to do extra runs for example run one for the 9am one then once that's done run empty and do one for the 10am school and the same for the 9:30am / 10:30am schools.

Better use of resources and not exactly hard to impliment from a school point of view. It also limits the amount of students using the buses at the same time and with the ones at 10am and 10:30am it's moved them away from the morning peak.

(11 Sep 2020, 9:50 pm)Storx wrote Surely a simple solution would be to stagger school times. For example have one school from 9am - 3pm, another 9:30am - 3.30pm, another 10am - 4pm then another 10:30am - 4:30pm. Least it means the school buses are able to do extra runs for example run one for the 9am one then once that's done run empty and do one for the 10am school and the same for the 9:30am / 10:30am schools.

Better use of resources and not exactly hard to impliment from a school point of view. It also limits the amount of students using the buses at the same time and with the ones at 10am and 10:30am it's moved them away from the morning peak.

Exactly.  It's not impossible.  You wouldn't even necessarily need to stagger the school times, just have an early run and a late run operated by the same bus that, shock horror, comes back.  I don't know about the routes in the examples being posted on but many of the scholars services in this area seem to be quite short so you could have e.g. depart X 0740 arrive school 0800, light run back to X to depart 0820 arrive school 0840 - if say the school day started 0845 in this example.

I would still argue that leaving kids standing (they would hardly be stranded - they should be either near their home or at the school, if using a scholars service) is better than piling them on and hoping the nasty virus takes into account that they were on a scholars bus as opposed to any other enclosed space.  Completely agree with others that the underlying issue here rests with our woeful excuse for a government, however.

(11 Sep 2020, 10:42 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Exactly.  It's not impossible.  You wouldn't even necessarily need to stagger the school times, just have an early run and a late run operated by the same bus that, shock horror, comes back.  I don't know about the routes in the examples being posted on but many of the scholars services in this area seem to be quite short so you could have e.g. depart X 0740 arrive school 0800, light run back to X to depart 0820 arrive school 0840 - if say the school day started 0845 in this example.

I would still argue that leaving kids standing (they would hardly be stranded - they should be either near their home or at the school, if using a scholars service) is better than piling them on and hoping the nasty virus takes into account that they were on a scholars bus as opposed to any other enclosed space.  Completely agree with others that the underlying issue here rests with our woeful excuse for a government, however.

I don't know how things work now, but we always had an early and late school bus, one that got there ~30 minutes before start, and one about ~10 minutes before.
Obviously I'd get neither and always get the public bus because I didn't fancy being set on fire!

(11 Sep 2020, 7:59 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Exactly, MG said that scholars services will even have a pack of masks on board to give out to people without them as they can't be leaving anyone behind.

Disagree entirely. School buses SHOULD leave kids behind if there’s kids not following rules. This is about public health why should my child be put at risk because someone else’s can’t follow instructions.

(12 Sep 2020, 3:27 pm)Drifter60 wrote Disagree entirely. School buses SHOULD leave kids behind if there’s kids not following rules. This is about public health why should my child be put at risk because someone else’s can’t follow instructions.

It's a fine line to tread. Obviously, at the moment, GNE need to try and gain as much revenue so they minimise the loss and need all the custom they get. If you leave children behind, you'll get some angry parents who will complain about not getting to school and some of those are the ones who don't really think much about the virus. They might not bother with the bus in the future. However, if a bus gets over capacity/ children not wearing masks etc. you'll get people choosing another way to travel because they don't feel safe. So it's the need to balance between the two.