(15 Sep 2020, 12:01 pm)big mac wrote The exact same thing happens in Low Fell towards Newcastle.  People let the 25 go past and get on a 21, even though the 25 does the exact same route and serves all the same stops.  Is it just lack of awareness that the route goes where they want it to just because it doesn't have a "brand"?

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Probably it doesn't particularly help the numbers of some routes either.

2, 39, 60, 61 - Ryhope
20, 35, 55, X1 - Houghton / Hetton
21, 25, 28B - Low Fell

People might be more aware if they had some link between each other and advertised together but for someone who's never used a bus it's no wonder they're confused with the 21, 25, 28B etc especially when you bring the brands in at the same time and change them every other week. It's only really a GNE issue aswell as Stagecoach and Arriva in general have logical numbers blocked together (at least North of the Tyne).

(15 Sep 2020, 1:11 pm)Storx wrote Probably it doesn't particularly help the numbers of some routes either.

2, 39, 60, 61 - Ryhope
20, 35, 55, X1 - Houghton / Hetton
21, 25, 28B - Low Fell

People might be more aware if they had some link between each other and advertised together but for someone who's never used a bus it's no wonder they're confused with the 21, 25, 28B etc especially when you bring the brands in at the same time and change them every other week. It's only really a GNE issue aswell as Stagecoach and Arriva in general have logical numbers blocked together (at least North of the Tyne).

Yes and service numbers that haven't changed for decades. The Wrekenton to Newcastle via Low Fell route has been the 25, 1, 24 and 2 in the space of, I would guess, the last ten years? So I can see how it would be confusing.
However, when they do pull up to the stop with the destination showing Newcastle in nice big letters I don't get why then punters don't bother with it, even if the numbers change regularly and don't have a connection with the established 21.
With the numbering I suppose it is quite difficult to try and have them all tied together, for example the 28b is numbered as such to group it in with the Ouston and Pelton section of the route, so if you tried to renumber it to group in with the Low Fell services, it then loses its tie to the 28 and 28a.



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(15 Sep 2020, 1:25 pm)big mac wrote Yes and service numbers that haven't changed for decades.  The Wrekenton to Newcastle via Low Fell route has been the 25, 1, 24 and 2 in the space of, I would guess, the last ten years?  So I can see how it would be confusing.
However, when they do pull up to the stop with the destination showing Newcastle in nice big letters I don't get why then punters don't bother with it, even if the numbers change regularly and don't have a connection with the established 21.
With the numbering I suppose it is quite difficult to try and have them all tied together, for example the 28b is numbered as such to group it in with the Ouston and Pelton section of the route, so if you tried to renumber it to group in with the Low Fell services, it then loses its tie to the 28 and 28a. 



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I wonder if the blinds need to be clear where in Newcastle they're going?
Particularly if you're thinking back to the 1/1A/2 which didn't go anywhere near Eldon Square or the 24 which has had various routes around the town over the years and the 21 which has been pretty limited in comparison.

(15 Sep 2020, 1:34 pm)Andreos1 wrote I wonder if the blinds need to be clear where in Newcastle they're going?
Particularly if you're thinking back to the 1/1A/2 which didn't go anywhere near Eldon Square or the 24 which has had various routes around the town over the years and the 21 which has been pretty limited in comparison.

True. Maybe they should put Eldon Square on the destination display.

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(15 Sep 2020, 3:40 pm)big mac wrote True.  Maybe they should put Eldon Square on the destination display.

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Before gateshead you mean? Think it says eldon square, when it hits gateshead.

(15 Sep 2020, 3:42 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Before gateshead you mean? Think it says eldon square, when it hits gateshead.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Displaying Eldon Square when the vehicle has picked up all of its passengers, seems bonkers. 
Surely a bus needs to display Eldon Square so that punters in Birtley, Low Fell etc know exactly where its going in the town.

I do think duplicate route numbers,gaps in route numbers,brands all combined dont help the issue, like 93/94, do they really need to be numbered that,it made sense when there were several services that were numbered in the 90's but how many are there now? Only ones i can think of is 93/94 and 97 unless ive missed some,personally it started back in 2007 in North Tyneside when 3's were dropped from route numbers, numerous routes merged left right and centre links hashed networkwide, but i think out of the lot,it was Gateshead that got the raw deal, my dad used to rant about em before he died,not just GNE,boy he'd be disgusted if he saw the system the way it is now

Put Eldon Square, Park Lane, etc.. on second line. That would help massively

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Could quite easily go off on a rant about GNE, which i had money to go out and fix the issues myself

(15 Sep 2020, 3:42 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote Before gateshead you mean? Think it says eldon square, when it hits gateshead.

Yes. I think it should say Newcastle Eldon Square as the destination for the duration of the route.

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For Low Fell I could imagine being put off as they might not know that it will still go straight down the fell so won't take the risk, I know I wouldn't if I wasn't from the area as some of Gateshead's buses take a magical mystery tour before getting to Newcastle.

53/54 changed to G1/G2
93/94 changed to G3/G4
57 changed to G5
97 changed to G7
58 changed to G8

All G's stand for Gateshead (Branded as Gateshead Arrow).

(15 Sep 2020, 4:23 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote 53/54 changed to G1/G2
93/94 changed to G3/G4
57 changed to G5
97 changed to G7
58 changed to G8

All G's stand for Gateshead (Branded as Gateshead Arrow).

It would be good to have at least some sort of numbering system that gave an indication of the area the route serves, because as has been said there isn't really any logic to the numbers at all any more.
It's strange how they've phased out the old system of the first number denoting the area e.g. 5 for South Tyneside, 7 for County Durham etc but the 309 and 310 still exist. Is there a particular reason why they were kept?

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There's probably rarely any real logic to choosing route numbers. There are still a few 1XX services in the Wear Valley, 2xx routes in East Durham and 7xx numbered routes around Chester.

(15 Sep 2020, 6:12 pm)tcts24 wrote There's probably rarely any real logic to choosing route numbers. There are still a few 1XX services in the Wear Valley, 2xx routes in East Durham and 7xx numbered routes around Chester.

There's definitely some logic to Arriva Northumbria's route numbers tbf.

1 - 13 (Blyth routes)
14 - 19 (Morpeth / Alnwick Routes)
20 - 39 (Ashington Routes)
40 - 49 (Great North Road Services)
50 - 59 (N Tyneside / Cramlington Services)
306, 308, 685 (Legacy Routes that stuck)

with some even further

43, 44, 45, 46, 47 (Gosforth)
51, 52 (Coast Road)
54, 55 (FLE to Newcastle)
57, 58 (East Cramlington Hospital)
X7, X8, X9, X10, X11 (Blyth Expresses)
X20, X21, X22 (Ashington Expresses)
X14, X15, X16, X18 (Morpeth Expresses)

The only odd one out is the X30

(15 Sep 2020, 6:12 pm)tcts24 wrote There's probably rarely any real logic to choosing route numbers. There are still a few 1XX services in the Wear Valley, 2xx routes in East Durham and 7xx numbered routes around Chester.

I've been fascinated by route numbers for years. I particularly dislike things such as those mentioned by somebody else 1/1A/1B and X1, 5 and X5 etc being confusing. If the 1 had a express introduced that would be the 1X, which is stupid! I agreed with Coaster 1/2 becoming 1/1A as it frees up more numbers. 

Suppose with a limited amount of numbers, it can't be avoided. Branding does help, like Coaster 1 and Red Arrows X1, or now all expresses will be X-lines so will be totally separate.

(15 Sep 2020, 6:51 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote I've been fascinated by route numbers for years. I particularly dislike things such as those mentioned by somebody else 1/1A/1B and X1, 5 and X5 etc being confusing. If the 1 had a express introduced that would be the 1X, which is stupid! I agreed with Coaster 1/2 becoming 1/1A as it frees up more numbers. 

Suppose with a limited amount of numbers, it can't be avoided. Branding does help, like Coaster 1 and Red Arrows X1, or now all expresses will be X-lines so will be totally separate.

My biggest hate are the 10s. The 10A is completely different from the 10. Sure, they share a common part of the route, but they have completely different destinations.  

IMO, routes should only have the same number if they follow the same broad route but with minor variations. The 49/49A is a great example of it, they both run from Gateshead to Winlaton Bus Station, but take different routes through Blaydon

You also bring up a good point about the 'express' routes. Logically, you would assume that the X1 is an 'express' 1, or the X5 is an 'express' 5, the same way the X21 is an 'express' 21, but they're not. That's completely unacceptable in my opinion. 

It wouldn't be so bad if they were in completely different areas but they're not, at Gateshead it'd be quite easy to think the X1 goes to the same place as the 1A/B, or at Newcastle the X10 goes to the same place as the 10 (although with the X10 no longer serving Eldon Square that's unlikely). As we all know passengers can be stupid and not read the displays properly.

I agree,most of the points made ,i mean all bus companies do it,but GNE,well they chop and change things more than you can count,you get used to a service,then its taken away,i still think the biggest joke recently is the 41

i was on the 21 to eldon square which was dropping off neat market street outside the old buzz nightclub. a woman and 3 kids came running up and got on and wanted to go to Newcastle Business park at Scotswood. Argued a good couple of minutes that they were told the 21 would take them there!!!

Thats my bug bare - different companies using the sam numbers, especially in the same area.... - 1 to metro centre or slatyford, x10 to blyth or the Boro 10 to hexham or West denton!

(16 Sep 2020, 10:47 am)Rob44 wrote i was on the 21 to eldon square which was dropping off neat market street outside the old buzz nightclub. a woman and 3 kids came running up and got on and wanted to go to Newcastle Business park at Scotswood. Argued a good couple of minutes that they were told the 21 would take them there!!!

Thats my bug bare - different companies using the sam numbers, especially in the same area.... - 1 to metro centre or slatyford,  x10 to blyth or the Boro 10 to hexham or West denton!

It's even better when there is no 21 to the business park at all and it is the 22 that they would have needed.

I kinda get the point about the 10A going off the beaten track a tiny bit. But it is a 10A, i.e. not a 10 or 10B. It goes vaguely the same direction and has a slightly different service number, which differnentiates it enough to figure out that like the 10B, it wont go anywhere near Hexam!

The same goes for the X10. It's different, as in it's not a 10 and it's pretty simply to comprehend that may not go to Coulby Newham from Middlesbrough Bus Station - like the 10 does! Expecting anything with a X prefix to take the same route as a similarly numbered non prefixed service is bodering distictly on the anal side.

The 55 and Stagecoach North East service 1's (both of them) present a bigger issue. Does it go to Buddle Road or Slatyford? Seaton Carew or Middlesbrough? Peterlee or Wingate? Where it goes, nobody knows! I have known instances of customers stopping the bus and asking the driver where it's going because they've established it's a 1, but haven't (or couldn't) read the actual destination. If these type of routes were split into a 1 and 2 or 1 and 1A or 55 and 155 or whatever.

(16 Sep 2020, 1:02 pm)ifm001 wrote It's even better when there is no 21 to the business park at all and it is the 22 that they would have needed.

Good point LOL

(16 Sep 2020, 1:02 pm)ifm001 wrote It's even better when there is no 21 to the business park at all and it is the 22 that they would have needed.

There's also the 12 to the Business Park which is a GNE service. Same numbers, just the wrong way round!

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(16 Sep 2020, 1:11 pm)tcts24 wrote I kinda get the point about the 10A going off the beaten track a tiny bit. But it is a 10A, i.e. not a 10 or 10B. It goes vaguely the same direction and has a slightly different service number, which differnentiates it enough to figure out that like the 10B, it wont go anywhere near Hexam!

The same goes for the X10. It's different, as in it's not a 10 and it's pretty simply to comprehend that may not go to Coulby Newham from Middlesbrough Bus Station - like the 10 does! Expecting anything with a X prefix to take the same route as a similarly numbered non prefixed service is bodering distictly on the anal side.

The 55 and Stagecoach North East service 1's (both of them) present a bigger issue. Does it go to Buddle Road or Slatyford? Seaton Carew or Middlesbrough? Peterlee or Wingate? Where it goes, nobody knows! I have known instances of customers stopping the bus and asking the driver where it's going because they've established it's a 1, but haven't (or couldn't) read the actual destination. If these type of routes were split into a 1 and 2 or 1 and 1A or 55 and 155 or whatever.

I disagree with this personally I don't think any bus company in their own company shouldn't have duplicate numbers with an express and a non express service. It's not a bad assumption to assume an X1 is an express version of their 1, or the X10 is an express version of their 10 (ignoring common sense). Between other operators then fair enough but there's 99 numbers GNE could use (if you want to keep it 2 digits) without having an X1 and 1 and X10 and 10 running from the same bus stations (or nearby).

In terms of the 10, I quite like the way Trent Barton have done it for their 'nines' routes where it's 9.1 and 9.3 (used to be a 9.2 which got scrapped - don't have the gap). Could work well for the 10's 10.1 to Hexham, 10.2 for the 10A and 10.3 for the 10B

In terms of GNE, Arriva and Stagecoach is there any services which have the same number running from the same bus stop / station in Tyne and Wear, can't think of any tbh.

(16 Sep 2020, 5:24 pm)Storx wrote In terms of GNE, Arriva and Stagecoach is there any services which have the same number running from the same bus stop / station in Tyne and Wear, can't think of any tbh.

X47 at Eldon Square is the one that jumps out at me straight away.

(16 Sep 2020, 5:33 pm)S813 FVK wrote X47 at Eldon Square is the one that jumps out at me straight away.

GNE's was the 47 until they insisted on making it X-lines though!

Dont both the 10s stop at Central Station

(16 Sep 2020, 5:24 pm)Storx wrote I disagree with this personally I don't think any bus company in their own company shouldn't have duplicate numbers with an express and a non express service. It's not a bad assumption to assume an X1 is an express version of their 1, or the X10 is an express version of their 10 (ignoring common sense). Between other operators then fair enough but there's 99 numbers GNE could use (if you want to keep it 2 digits) without having an X1 and 1 and X10 and 10 running from the same bus stations (or nearby).

In terms of the 10, I quite like the way Trent Barton have done it for their 'nines' routes where it's 9.1 and 9.3 (used to be a 9.2 which got scrapped - don't have the gap). Could work well for the 10's 10.1 to Hexham, 10.2 for the 10A and 10.3 for the 10B

In terms of GNE, Arriva and Stagecoach is there any services which have the same number running from the same bus stop / station in Tyne and Wear, can't think of any tbh.

There used to be the Stagecoach 40 and GNE 40 from Wallsend Interchange. Different stops, but same interchange!

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(16 Sep 2020, 5:53 pm)V514DFT wrote Dont both the 10s stop at Central Station

Yes, different stops, but you could argue Central Station is an interchange and served by a 10 from two companies.

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Stagecoach 6 and GNE 6 at the Metrocentre, although different stands, could be confusing as they go from the same interchange!

(16 Sep 2020, 5:33 pm)S813 FVK wrote X47 at Eldon Square is the one that jumps out at me straight away.

Ah yeah forgot about that one, very recent though.

(16 Sep 2020, 5:55 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote There used to be the Stagecoach 40 and GNE 40 from Wallsend Interchange. Different stops, but same interchange!

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Yes, different stops, but you could argue Central Station is an interchange and served by a 10 from two companies.

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Stagecoach 6 and GNE 6 at the Metrocentre, although different stands, could be confusing as they go from the same interchange!

Okay maybe there is a few then I knew about the two 40's though it's what got me thinking about it. Noticable that it's all caused by GNE.

(16 Sep 2020, 6:36 pm)Storx wrote Ah yeah forgot about that one, very recent though.


Okay maybe there is a few then I knew about the two 40's though it's what got me thinking about it. Noticable that it's all caused by GNE.

Probably because Stagecoach have hardly changed any service numbers in decades and GNE change them pretty much every week.

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(16 Sep 2020, 5:33 pm)S813 FVK wrote X47 at Eldon Square is the one that jumps out at me straight away.

Stage coach and Go North East both have a service 10 from Newcastle Central Station.