"So you want a revolution..." as the song goes.

A revolution can be defined as one complete turn around an axis where the position commenced fron and ended is the same.

And here were are, back in the 1980s, before buses were degregulated ending in the mess they're in today. The 1980s holds a lot of memories for me, new to the circuit and coming into my prime as a performer. It was a lot easier to get around by bus then too. Being both greedy and ambitious, I could perform two turns on a Saturday night and travel by bus. I could perform at an old-dear's 70th in Sacriston before jumping on the 531 to do a quick turn at the Miners Welfare Club in Westoe, or do the same with a gig in Seaham and a turn at the Cannon in Low Fell.

I hope these government changes mean the new breed of performer has the same opportunities as me when starting out.

One thing I hope comes of this is improved Sunday services, although for that we probably first need to get rid of the Sunday Trading Act.

(16 Mar 2021, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote To me, it seems too good to be true.

As hopeful as I am that we will see an end to the mess created in 86, I can't see this being anything other than. another one of Boris's empty promises.
Probably ending up in the same pile as his airport, garden bridge and tunnel under the Irish sea plans.

(16 Mar 2021, 9:07 pm)Andreos1 wrote As hopeful as I am that we will see an end to the mess created in 86, I can't see this being anything other than. another one of Boris's empty promises.
Probably ending up in the same pile as his airport, garden bridge and tunnel under the Irish sea plans.

I’d share your scepticism if it wasn’t for the fact that most  buses will not be commercially sustainable for some years yet. So come July when current CBSSG ends, we’re going to have to pursue this plan or see services disappear on a much accelerated rate. I think many changes may come about not through a new-found affection for the bus, but a fear of spiralling congestion & pollution from cars.

Only had a skim through the thread, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that if the governments plan to go down the electric car route comes to fruition, in a few short years many more people wont be able to afford a car and will be pushed towards public transport.

We all welcome improvements, and a lot of what they want to do has been around a while and is overdue to be rolled out further I think. Multi-operator tickets? Explorers. Bus/train combined? Plusbus. Local authorites working together makes sense, as does more bus information, next stop announcements and so on.

I'm not sure why Andy Street, the mayor for the West Midlands, was quoted in the article - his part of the world already has a very good public transport network, with buses, trams and trains all over the place. To a lesser extent, same here in places served by the tyne and wear metro.

I hope they dont lose sight of the main issues, which in my opinion is getting buses to people who arent served well or at all, and definately more on an evening and sunday.

I'd also start to charge the ENCTS pass holders a small, token fare per journey to put some money back into the system. It probably wont happen, but hey, a lot of this may not happen!

(17 Mar 2021, 9:10 am)tvd wrote Only had a skim through the thread, but I don't think anyone has mentioned that if the governments plan to go down the electric car route comes to fruition, in a few short years many more people wont be able to afford a car and will be pushed towards public transport. 

We all welcome improvements, and a lot of what they want to do has been around a while and is overdue to be rolled out further I think.  Multi-operator tickets? Explorers.  Bus/train combined? Plusbus.  Local authorites working together makes sense, as does more bus information, next stop announcements and so on.

I'm not sure why Andy Street, the mayor for the West Midlands, was quoted in the article - his part of the world already has a very good public transport network, with buses, trams and trains all over the place.  To a lesser extent, same here in places served by the tyne and wear metro.

I hope they dont lose sight of the main issues, which in my opinion is getting buses to people who arent served well or at all, and definately more on an evening and sunday.

I'd also start to charge the ENCTS pass holders a small, token fare per journey to put some money back into the system.  It probably wont happen, but hey, a lot of this may not happen!

Why would that be the case regarding electric cars. The only reason electric cars are still so expensive is because people think they need ~300 miles range, when a battery half the size with half the range would be more than sufficient. Even still, price of batteries is still coming down, I'd estimate in 5 years the price of electric vehicles will be lower than that of an ICE car since the rest of the parts are so much cheaper.

As for ENCTS, I personally think it should be means tested, and treated as the 'benefit' that it is. I don't think that people who can afford to travel by bus should have free bus travel, in the same way I think it should be open to all ages, based on their need rather than age.

There's an assumption that prices for electric cars will come down, and they may do, but will have to come down a lot to be affordable to lower paid workers. And then presumably there'll need to be huge infrastructure investment in charging points - are they going to put them outside every home? Maybe I'm sceptical but time will tell I guess.

Means testing ENCTS is one idea, as always pros and cons; the cons being the administrative costs of running a means tested systems, and for those that come fractionally above the limit will not get a free pass, but someone else whose income is a few quid a year less, get unlimited free travel potential worth thousands of pounds.

I cant see anything being changed about the free passes, just that in my opinion no one should complain if a small amount per journey was charged, especially if the proceeds of which went back into subsidising lesser used buses / evening or sunday buses in their local area.

Could operators be forced to go fully electric, gas or both in the future.

(17 Mar 2021, 10:21 am)tvd wrote There's an assumption that prices for electric cars will come down, and they may do, but will have to come down a lot to be affordable to lower paid workers.  And then presumably there'll need to be huge infrastructure investment in charging points - are they going to put them outside every home?  Maybe I'm sceptical but time will tell I guess.

Means testing ENCTS is one idea, as always pros and cons; the cons being the administrative costs of running a means tested systems, and for those that come fractionally above the limit will not get a free pass, but someone else whose income is a few quid a year less, get unlimited free travel potential worth thousands of pounds.

I cant see anything being changed about the free passes, just that in my opinion no one should complain if a small amount per journey was charged, especially if the proceeds of which went back into subsidising lesser used buses / evening or sunday buses in their local area.

Yeah, the biggest issue with going full EV is the charging infrastructure, I'm lucky enough to have a house with off road parking (if I could be arsed to knock the wall down), but my mother doesn't because of the slope of the garden. She'd love to go EV, she nearly bought one but she just doesn't have anywhere to home charge.

As for the means tested ENCTS, I don't think it would be particularly 'hard' to do, it could be linked up with Universal Credit, so the more you earn, the less free travel you get, or maybe it could go from free travel to half price travel. It's just an idea.

(17 Mar 2021, 10:31 am)ASX_Terranova wrote Could operators be forced to go fully electric, gas or both in the future.

I think 'banning' diesel is the wrong way to go about things. 
Electric buses are nearly there, if the government want to make operators switch over to Zero Emissions vehicles, then they need to work with manufacturers to make the products viable. Making one thing illegal doesn't magically make the other thing better.

For me, Battery Electric Vehicles are only really suitable for city routes, for the longer journeys either Diesel/Electric hybrid (with Diesel only being used as a generator to power the electric motors, as that is more efficient, with a smaller battery to allow full EV in urban areas), or Hydrogen Electric Vehicles as they allow for much longer ranges

(17 Mar 2021, 9:21 am)streetdeckfan wrote Why would that be the case regarding electric cars. The only reason electric cars are still so expensive is because people think they need ~300 miles range, when a battery half the size with half the range would be more than sufficient. Even still, price of batteries is still coming down, I'd estimate in 5 years the price of electric vehicles will be lower than that of an ICE car since the rest of the parts are so much cheaper.

As for ENCTS, I personally think it should be means tested, and treated as the 'benefit' that it is. I don't think that people who can afford to travel by bus should have free bus travel, in the same way I think it should be open to all ages, based on their need rather than age. 

I've never been keen on doing that. Apart from any administrative costs behind the scenes, you're actually putting barriers in place. When the opposite should be done imo. You want people on buses. 
My parents are both retired and both still have their driving licences. They use the bus to Newcastle because (for them) it is cheaper than parking. Not because it is easy, convenient or because it has WiFi.
Assuming others are the same, then introducing a token fare impacts on how cheap the bus actually is and suddenly makes using it less attractive. Regardless of any associated behind the scenes impact or admin costs.

(17 Mar 2021, 11:59 am)Andreos1 wrote I've never been keen on doing that. Apart from any administrative costs behind the scenes, you're actually putting barriers in place. When the opposite should be done imo. You want people on buses. 
My parents are both retired and both still have their driving licences. They use the bus to Newcastle because (for them) it is cheaper than parking. Not because it is easy, convenient or because it has WiFi.
Assuming others are the same, then introducing a token fare impacts on how cheap the bus actually is and suddenly makes using it less attractive. Regardless of any associated behind the scenes impact or admin costs.

To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan wrote To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

I'm not being funny, but that's how it should be (difficult to get, not stressful). They shouldn't be handing them out to any old sod, but equally they shouldn't be so difficult that people who need them can't get them.

I don't know what your situation is, but say you had a good job you are able to afford the ticket, then I honestly don't think you should be entitled to a free bus pass. 

Also, with what I'm suggesting there wouldn't need to be any assessments beyond what is already in place, ie. being on Universal Credit, Pension Credits, or any legacy benefit. 

To me, it comes down to whether you need the financial support to be able to travel, as I said further up I think it should be treated as benefit and nothing more.

(17 Mar 2021, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan wrote To me, there are three options, you either have free bus travel open to everyone, nobody, or just those that need it.

They already manage to have it means tested for those with disabilities, so why not just make the whole scheme means tested?

I have the exact same opinion with the TV License (although the existence of a TV license is another discussion entirely). If you can afford something, you should pay for it.

Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.

I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.

(17 Mar 2021, 2:53 pm)Andreos1 wrote Free travel as seen in several European cities would be the dream!
It opens up the network to all and encourages people to make the switch.

I don't understand why barriers should be put in to place for some CAT passes though. 
If it takes one car off the road, then surely that's a good thing. If it takes several off, then even better.

I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).

(17 Mar 2021, 3:15 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I definitely agree, I'd love nothing more than for everyone to have access for free public transport, but realistically that's not going to happen on such a large scale. 
Maybe once we have a wider adoption of electric buses something like that might be viable due to the considerably lower running costs, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

The other issue is the taxes lost from all those cars no longer being on the road and using fuel would have to be made up from somewhere (actually taxing large international corporations would be a good start!)

Barriers wouldn't be put  in place for some passes, they would be in place for all passes, both disabled and older people (and anyone else who may be entitled to a concessionary pass).

As I said further up, for me you either offer free travel to everybody, nobody, or those who need it (which arguably those entitled to a disabled pass could come under, depending on their particular case).

But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.

(17 Mar 2021, 5:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote But by putting those barriers up and making it more expensive or difficult for passengers to use the service, surely you see that it could result in more cars being on the road?
Which is the exact opposite of what operators want.
They don't want cars on the road. They want people to make that modal switch to public transport.

But the general consensus seems to be operators want paying passengers, not ENCTS passengers as there isn't enough money in it

Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.

(17 Mar 2021, 8:41 pm)Adrian wrote Whilst the ENCTS scheme is discriminatory on the eligibility rules, the only reason we are viewing it as a problem is because its not properly funded... like everything else! If it was funded correctly, and operators got a more realistic level of reimbursement out of it, then I don't think we'd be talking about it in this way.

I just disagree with the principal of it, the government could spend an extra £10bn on it, and I'd still think it should be means tested!

OK this is starting to get a bit off topic. I'm happy to leave the posts where they are for now, but lets try and stick to the merits and concerns around the National Bus Strategy and what it may mean for our region.

(17 Mar 2021, 9:21 am)streetdeckfan wrote Why would that be the case regarding electric cars. The only reason electric cars are still so expensive is because people think they need ~300 miles range, when a battery half the size with half the range would be more than sufficient. Even still, price of batteries is still coming down, I'd estimate in 5 years the price of electric vehicles will be lower than that of an ICE car since the rest of the parts are so much cheaper.

As for ENCTS, I personally think it should be means tested, and treated as the 'benefit' that it is. I don't think that people who can afford to travel by bus should have free bus travel, in the same way I think it should be open to all ages, based on their need rather than age.

It is open to all ages. Only people with a learning difficulty or disability alongside the over 65s can get them but part of the requirement is getting Personal independence payments ( PIP) which is the new disability benefit.  So technically it is already means tested as very few people can get the pass without been on PIP which in itself is very difficult to get.

---

(17 Mar 2021, 2:13 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote I'm autisic, i can honestly say that getting a disabaled bus pass is very diffcult. I find assessments stressfull, so when i was told i would need one, i didnt bother and just got a key card instead.

I got dyspraxia and mental health so know what you mean it’s really difficult to get. I kept getting turned down for the pass it only when I eventually pip which itself was near impossible to get that I have managed to get one. The fact is it’s not the pass users fault if the bus companies are not getting the right reimbursement from it that would be the governments. A majority of pass holders struggle with everyday things so why make it more difficult by making them pay a fare each time they get the bus.  In that case they might as well get a taxi or if they able to use a car.  Which means more passengers lost.

Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/

(19 Mar 2021, 6:45 pm)Adrian wrote Five Reasons the National Bus Strategy will FAIL to deliver… and what we can do about it
https://abcommuters.com/2021/03/19/five-...-about-it/

I'll have a proper read of it later.
Apart from the headline, the photo at the top of the page stood out.
That fella looks a right character!

Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.

(26 May 2021, 7:51 am)Adrian wrote Is anyone aware of any updates to this for Tyne and Wear (or elsewhere in the North East)? Page 11 of the strategy states:

"By the end of June 2021, we expect all LTAs, except MCAs which have started the statutory process of franchising bus services, to commit to establishing Enhanced Partnerships across their entire areas under the Bus Services Act, and all operators to co-operate with the LTA throughout the process. LTAs which also wish to pursue franchising may do so – but they should commit to implementing Enhanced Partnerships in the meantime until the franchising process, which can be lengthy, is complete. LTAs which  are not mayoral combined authorities and wish to pursue franchising will need to satisfy the Secretary of State that they have the capability and resources to do so, and that it will better deliver service improvements for passengers."

Clock is ticking and I can't seem to find any mention of it in any NECA meetings.

By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf

(01 Jun 2021, 11:04 pm)busmanT wrote By the end of June they only need to have decided which way to proceed (enhanced partnership or franchising) and published a statutory notice to that effect
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...rators.pdf

Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.

(02 Jun 2021, 3:06 pm)Adrian wrote Although I believe this would normally need to be approved by the NECA Joint Transport Committee, as I don't think Nexus would have the delegation to make that decision alone?

There's a reference in a report to the NECA Leadership Board meeting next week, but nothing published for the Joint Transport Committee yet. Their only June meeting listed is an AGM.

Joint Transport Committee June 15th meeting agenda published - https://northeastca.gov.uk/wp-content/up...a-Pack.pdf

Page 49 onwards (Agenda item 9) is of relevance to this thread.