(02 Apr 2021, 10:30 pm)Andreos1 wrote One thing I struggle to get my head around, is the lack of integration with the X9/10.

I'd certainly not want to be the driver of an X11 having to break the news to a queue of passengers in Middlesbrough or Peterlee - that their ticket isn't valid, they need to pay a premium or hang-around until the next X10 rocks up.
Even more so, if I then drive off with a half-empty bus, which has struggled to break even on that particular day.

"yes, I do go to Newcastle. Yes, I was driving the X9 just the other day. Yes, it does have the same brand name on the side as the X10. But no, you can't get on the bus unless you pay a premium, even though I'm half empty and there's plenty of seats left'.

*gets back to the depot and chats to colleagues in the canteen*

"mixed bag today, didn't carry many back. Could have boosted numbers with a few Buzzfare pass holders and then taken a handful of cash fares at Boro and Peterlee, but I wasn't allowed. There was a few punters at Washington that had just missed the 4 to Heworth and the X1 to the town. The next buses weren't for another 30mins, but I didn't let them on".

Bonkers.

(03 Apr 2021, 9:41 am)Dan wrote What would be bonkers, is if this service is so popular, that passengers intending to travel towards Whitby and Scarborough are turned away because X9/X10 passengers are using it as a 'local' service and taking up a valuable seat. The trouble is that it's a huge unknown, and it's important not to forget that buses are currently restricted in capacity.

If the service was an all-day service, providing a combined 20-minute frequency headway with the existing X9 and X10 services, I would agree with you that there should be integration of tickets between the three services. That isn't the case, and in the same vein as the Explorer ticket not being valid, why should passengers with an existing bus service be prioritised over those wanting to use the new link?

I think the problem with this argument is that each point of view can be attributed to each journey. On the journey towards Whitby/Scarborough, like Dan says there would be no point letting on a load of passengers at Newcastle who are only travelling to Washington, Peterlee or Middlesbrough when there are other services available to them, if it meant passengers who were wanting to use the service through to Whitby or Scarborough were being turned away. Because in that case, you might as well just add some extra journeys on the X1 and X9/10. 

However on the return journey all the passengers from Whitby/Scarborough board first and so like Andreos says, there would be no harm in picking up some X1 or X9/10 passengers on the way back to Newcastle - your issue there I suppose is that it's of no real benefit for GNE to allow them to board the X11 cause it would, in theory, reduce passenger numbers on the journeys on those services running after the X11. I suppose one might argue that from Middlesbrough onwards the X11 should be to drop passengers off only - but then you're in the realms of a coach service rather than a bus route. In the case of the X9/10 - there is an X10 10 minutes before the X11 and half an hour after - not long to wait really.

(03 Apr 2021, 10:44 am)peter wrote I think the problem with this argument is that each point of view can be attributed to each journey. On the journey towards Whitby/Scarborough, like Dan says there would be no point letting on a load of passengers at Newcastle who are only travelling to Washington, Peterlee or Middlesbrough when there are other services available to them, if it meant passengers who were wanting to use the service through to Whitby or Scarborough were being turned away. Because in that case, you might as well just add some extra journeys on the X1 and X9/10. 

However on the return journey all the passengers from Whitby/Scarborough board first and so like Andreos says, there would be no harm in picking up some X1 or X9/10 passengers on the way back to Newcastle - your issue there I suppose is that it's of no real benefit for GNE to allow them to board the X11 cause it would, in theory, reduce passenger numbers on the journeys on those services running after the X11. I suppose one might argue that from Middlesbrough onwards the X11 should be to drop passengers off only - but then you're in the realms of a coach service rather than a bus route. In the case of the X9/10 - there is an X10 10 minutes before the X11 and half an hour after - not long to wait really.

The only 'harm' is that it would become needlessly complicated - you can't travel southbound on the X11 with your X9/X10 ticket, but you can travel northbound?

This is another example of a barrier which would cause confusion (exactly what Andreos1 is against), so with that in mind, I think we're in agreement that it's better to have the X11 treated completely separately to the X9/X10 for simplicity... Unless, of course, Andreos1 has an argument for leaving Whitby/Scarborough passengers behind, in favour of allowing those with alternative options to travel on the X11 instead.

(03 Apr 2021, 10:44 am)peter wrote I think the problem with this argument is that each point of view can be attributed to each journey. On the journey towards Whitby/Scarborough, like Dan says there would be no point letting on a load of passengers at Newcastle who are only travelling to Washington, Peterlee or Middlesbrough when there are other services available to them, if it meant passengers who were wanting to use the service through to Whitby or Scarborough were being turned away. Because in that case, you might as well just add some extra journeys on the X1 and X9/10. 

However on the return journey all the passengers from Whitby/Scarborough board first and so like Andreos says, there would be no harm in picking up some X1 or X9/10 passengers on the way back to Newcastle - your issue there I suppose is that it's of no real benefit for GNE to allow them to board the X11 cause it would, in theory, reduce passenger numbers on the journeys on those services running after the X11. I suppose one might argue that from Middlesbrough onwards the X11 should be to drop passengers off only - but then you're in the realms of a coach service rather than a bus route. In the case of the X9/10 - there is an X10 10 minutes before the X11 and half an hour after - not long to wait really.

At the time in the morning the X11 leaves Newcastle, there's plenty X1's. Im not sure there would be that much demand for someone to hop on a slower X11 and therefore impact on those wanting to go the whole journey. 

However, for those heading north on an evening I do think it would be an attractive alternative.
I'm thinking of train vs bus and if there's an option of jumping on a bus, where I've got the chance of getting one of 3 at one point in the evening which will drop me at Gateshead or the middle of the town, rather than the infrequent train which drops me at Central station...

(03 Apr 2021, 10:49 am)Dan wrote The only 'harm' is that it would become needlessly complicated - you can't travel southbound on the X11 with your X9/X10 ticket, but you can travel northbound?

This is another example of a barrier which would cause confusion (exactly what Andreos1 is against), so with that in mind, I think we're in agreement that it's better to have the X11 treated completely separately to the X9/X10 for simplicity... Unless, of course, Andreos1 has an argument for leaving Whitby/Scarborough passengers behind, in favour of allowing those with alternative options to travel on the X11 instead.

Surely driver discretion should be allowed. Advertise the X11 as a completely separate service with completely separate ticket prices (as now), but if the average punter is waiting at Middlesbrough or Washington on the return journey and the X11 turns up, there's no harm in the driver letting them on if the capacity is available. Especially if they've just missed an X1 or the previous X10 was cancelled.

(03 Apr 2021, 11:10 am)Adtrainsam wrote Surely driver discretion should be allowed. Advertise the X11 as a completely separate service with completely separate ticket prices (as now), but if the average punter is waiting at Middlesbrough or Washington on the return journey and the X11 turns up, there's no harm in the driver letting them on if the capacity is available. Especially if they've just missed an X1 or the previous X10 was cancelled.

And chances are that would be the case (it’s a very small team of drivers operating the service, some of whom have come from the X9/X10 rota) - especially as the X11 will follow ten minutes after an X10, but this would never be advertised in the service’s current form - but Andreos1 wants this to be advertised and fully integrated with the X9/X10.


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(03 Apr 2021, 10:49 am)Dan wrote The only 'harm' is that it would become needlessly complicated - you can't travel southbound on the X11 with your X9/X10 ticket, but you can travel northbound?

This is another example of a barrier which would cause confusion (exactly what Andreos1 is against), so with that in mind, I think we're in agreement that it's better to have the X11 treated completely separately to the X9/X10 for simplicity... Unless, of course, Andreos1 has an argument for leaving Whitby/Scarborough passengers behind, in favour of allowing those with alternative options to travel on the X11 instead.

I think a massive point of confusion is just around the branding.

If it's going to be treated completely separately,  then why was it called the X11 in the first place?
All it's going to do is make people think it's a regular bus service and their tickets should be valid since it goes the same places as the X1/X9/X10 (ish)

Similarly, as has been pointed out earlier, it'll be allocated the same bus that will be running on the X9/X10 the day before, causing exactly the same confusion with the tickets.

To me, it definitely should have been launched under the Northern Coaching brand rather than with X-Lines branding.

(03 Apr 2021, 11:58 am)Dan wrote And chances are that would be the case (it’s a very small team of drivers operating the service, some of whom have come from the X9/X10 rota) - especially as the X11 will follow ten minutes after an X10, but this would never be advertised in the service’s current form - but Andreos1 wants this to be advertised and fully integrated with the X9/X10. 


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If this forum had trends and statistics like twitter, you would have my username trending by now.
Not sure what the fascination is in constantly referring back to me with what seems like every post you make in this thread. I've lost track of the number of times you've mentioned it today. 

Just to clarify that bib. I'm not sure I've said any of that. I've pointed out some flaws in the offering, suggested that it may lead to missed revenue opportunities and that 'something' could be done to reduce the barriers, making travelling that little bit easier or attractive for ordinary punters.

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(03 Apr 2021, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I think a massive point of confusion is just around the branding.

If it's going to be treated completely separately,  then why was it called the X11 in the first place?
All it's going to do is make people think it's a regular bus service and their tickets should be valid since it goes the same places as the X1/X9/X10 (ish)

Similarly, as has been pointed out earlier, it'll be allocated the same bus that will be running on the X9/X10 the day before, causing exactly the same confusion with the tickets. 

To me, it definitely should have been launched under the Northern Coaching brand rather than with X-Lines branding.

And has just been pointed out, arrives on its northbound trip just a few moments after the X10 departs and will inevitably encounter passengers who have just missed the X10.
Take all of those things in to account and I can see there been some disgruntled/confused punters OR drivers using their discretion and the machine not actually reflecting passengers on the service.
I'd hate to see the insurance implications with that one!

I'd love to think each of these operational decisions are taken with passengers in mind and not just through the eyes of someone in the commercial department who 'thinks' that Joe Public knows the craic, cos its obvious to everyone inside the industry.

I think people are massively over-thinking this. Its a one-run a day service, clearly designed for a day-trip/tourist market to Whitby and Scarborough.

Not being able to use the X11 as an alternative to the X9/X10 service is not going to piss people off to the point of using the train. There's an X9 that leaves Newcastle 8 minutes earlier, and from a completely different place, and an X10 that leaves 22 minutes later. The walk to Newcastle station, waiting for a once-an-hour train to Middlesbrough (that takes longer! and will cost you £12 return) is hardly worth the tantrum.

It doesn't need to be integrated into an already simple to understand X9/X10 service. There is a frequent enough service between the two destinations and is easy to remember that it departs at xx.02 and xx.32 from Newcastle or xx.15 and xx.45 from Middlesbrough each hour. How do you integrate a one a day service into that? You really can't.

I don't understand the points about branding confusion. The service departs from different places at all the bus stations it serves and the destination will tell you where it's going. If you're suggesting "just because it's Xlines", then what about the X7 Pulsars from Newcastle to Blyth and the X12 Pulsars from Newcastle to Middlesbrough? I'd be surprised if a single customer has ever been confused enough to get those two mixed up.

If you don't want to go to Whitby or Scarborough, then use the existing services and existing ticket range available.

(03 Apr 2021, 10:49 am)Dan wrote The only 'harm' is that it would become needlessly complicated - you can't travel southbound on the X11 with your X9/X10 ticket, but you can travel northbound?

This is another example of a barrier which would cause confusion (exactly what Andreos1 is against), so with that in mind, I think we're in agreement that it's better to have the X11 treated completely separately to the X9/X10 for simplicity... Unless, of course, Andreos1 has an argument for leaving Whitby/Scarborough passengers behind, in favour of allowing those with alternative options to travel on the X11 instead.

In my last post I was merely playing devil's advocate by highlighting how each practice could be applied to the service in one direction but not the other, from the point of view of seat availability. Obviously, I do not believe that system should be implemented, like you say it would be far too complicated in terms of ticketing having one rule one way and one rule the other. Although I can see Andreos' point about somebody missing the X10 10 minutes earlier, and being disgruntled about not being allowed on the X11, I guess that would be hard luck, in ordinary circumstances were the X11 not running they would have had to wait the 40 minutes anyway. And so fundamentally I agree it is easier for the X11 to be considered a separate entity. But like others have pointed out it's slightly awkward treating it separately on the one hand, but then branding it X-Lines, using the X9/X10 spare vehicle and numbering it the X11 on the other.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:23 pm)Adrian wrote I don't understand the points about branding confusion. The service departs from different places at all the bus stations it serves and the destination will tell you where it's going. If you're suggesting "just because it's Xlines", then what about the X7 Pulsars from Newcastle to Blyth and the X12 Pulsars from Newcastle to Middlesbrough? I'd be surprised if a single customer has ever been confused enough to get those two mixed up.

I think the branding confusion point was being made because the X11 and the X9 / X10 share both branding AND destinations - the punter can look at the front, recognise it as "an X-Lines that's going where I want", and attempt to get on.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:23 pm)Adrian wrote I think people are massively over-thinking this. Its a one-run a day service, clearly designed for a day-trip/tourist market to Whitby and Scarborough.

Not being able to use the X11 as an alternative to the X9/X10 service is not going to piss people off to the point of using the train. There's an X9 that leaves Newcastle 8 minutes earlier, and from a completely different place, and an X10 that leaves 22 minutes later. The walk to Newcastle station, waiting for a once-an-hour train to Middlesbrough (that takes longer! and will cost you £12 return) is hardly worth the tantrum.

It doesn't need to be integrated into an already simple to understand X9/X10 service. There is a frequent enough service between the two destinations and is easy to remember that it departs at xx.02 and xx.32 from Newcastle or xx.15 and xx.45 from Middlesbrough each hour. How do you integrate a one  a day service into that? You really can't.

I don't understand the points about branding confusion. The service departs from different places at all the bus stations it serves and the destination will tell you where it's going. If you're suggesting "just because it's Xlines", then what about the X7 Pulsars from Newcastle to Blyth and the X12 Pulsars from Newcastle to Middlesbrough? I'd be surprised if a single customer has ever been confused enough to get those two mixed up.

If you don't want to go to Whitby or Scarborough, then use the existing services and existing ticket range available.

It's not just the livery, it's the branding as a whole.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Let's say GNE wanted to run a once a day service from Newcastle to Barnard Castle.
They already have a service called the X21 so they think why not call it the X22 because it goes a similar direction.
It serves Chester le Street, Durham, and even Bishop Auckland along the route, the same as the X21 (albeit a different stand)
They even use the same buses that they use on the X21
But because it's a 'special' service, you can only use X22 tickets on the X22, even on common sections of the route.

I think we can all agree that would be a stupid idea, and would cause major confusion to passengers. So why is it different for the X10 and X11? The number is only incremented by 1 so surely it must just be a normal service!

They could have called it anything, heck even the X69420, but no, they picked X11

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(03 Apr 2021, 1:30 pm)Ianthegoon wrote I think the branding confusion point was being made because the X11 and the X9 / X10 share both branding AND destinations - the punter can look at the front, recognise it as "an X-Lines that's going where I want", and attempt to get on.

Exactly

(03 Apr 2021, 1:30 pm)Ianthegoon wrote I think the branding confusion point was being made because the X11 and the X9 / X10 share both branding AND destinations - the punter can look at the front, recognise it as "an X-Lines that's going where I want", and attempt to get on.

I assume that heading southbound, the front will display "Scarborough via Whitby" or "Whitby and Scarborough" - it won't mention Middlesbrough at all, so no prospect for confusion.

Of course there could be confusion northbound - one solution could be to put "Newcastle // Special Service" (the double slash would be a line break on the destination board). That way Middlesbrough passengers might see it as a Newcastle service but would be able to tell that it's a special service with special fares.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:23 pm)Adrian wrote I think people are massively over-thinking this. Its a one-run a day service, clearly designed for a day-trip/tourist market to Whitby and Scarborough.

Hear, hear!

(03 Apr 2021, 1:29 pm)peter wrote In my last post I was merely playing devil's advocate by highlighting how each practice could be applied to the service in one direction but not the other, from the point of view of seat availability. Obviously, I do not believe that system should be implemented, like you say it would be far too complicated in terms of ticketing having one rule one way and one rule the other. Although I can see Andreos' point about somebody missing the X10 10 minutes earlier, and being disgruntled about not being allowed on the X11, I guess that would be hard luck, in ordinary circumstances were the X11 not running they would have had to wait the 40 minutes anyway. And so fundamentally I agree it is easier for the X11 to be considered a separate entity. But like others have pointed out it's slightly awkward treating it separately on the one hand, but then branding it X-Lines, using the X9/X10 spare vehicle and numbering it the X11 on the other.

Yes indeed.

I do acknowledge the points on the numbering potentially leading to some confusion, but I still think it's unlikely. As Adrian mentioned in his previous post, the service is using different stands in Gateshead and Heworth, so I think that will rule out most confusion, as, chances are, those passengers will be waiting at the stand the X9/X10 services usually serve. There is argument for numbering it consecutively and running the familiar X-lines bus, in that it can be more easily identified as a Go North East bus. There's not a lot of appeal to anonymous-looking buses, and, arguably, could be why past services (such as the Pygalls Coaches 230 service between Sunderland and Hartlepool) have failed.

Had we been in a more normal world, this probably would have been a coach, being a part of the 'Northern Coaching' unit. That type of vehicle is more suited to this type of service, but while social distancing is still a thing, the capacity on-board vehicles is vastly reduced. If a 48-seat Northern Coaching Levante was allocated, you'd be limiting capacity to roughly 24 passengers. Assuming that this is made up of six groups, each paying £40, the service would bring in £240 in revenue. For simple maths: if the shift is 13 hours in duration and the driver is being paid £12/hour, the driver costs alone are £156, and that's before you take into account fuel, depreciation, maintenance costs, cleaning costs, and so on. It's clear to see why a coach cannot be allocated in the current climate, therefore branding it X-lines is a given, as it had to be allocated a newer, fairly comfortable, double-deck bus instead.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:30 pm)Ianthegoon wrote I think the branding confusion point was being made because the X11 and the X9 / X10 share both branding AND destinations - the punter can look at the front, recognise it as "an X-Lines that's going where I want", and attempt to get on.

Exactly this! 

A strong corporate identity, with a brand name they're wanting people to recognise.

Welcome to X-lines, your fast, direct bus links from Go North East to get you to work, to the shops, or off for a nice day out.

Buses are comfortable and easy to spot in their smart gold colour scheme. With free Wi-Fi and USB charging on board, great value fares, next-stop announcements and drivers that are helpful and friendly, it really is the best way to go.

 
Source: https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/x-lines/

Except the X11. Even though it uses a vehicle allocated to the X9/10, has the brand name plastered all-over, goes to various places the X9/10 does and apparently will use the same drivers...

Punters try and board. Drivers say no. Punter gets pi$$ed off.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:36 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It's not just the livery, it's the branding as a whole.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Let's say GNE wanted to run a once a day service from Newcastle to Barnard Castle.
They already have a service called the X21 so they think why not call it the X22 because it goes a similar direction.
It serves Chester le Street, Durham, and even Bishop Auckland along the route, the same as the X21 (albeit a different stand)
They even use the same buses that they use on the X21
But because it's a 'special' service, you can only use X22 tickets on the X22, even on common sections of the route.

I think we can all agree that would be a stupid idea, and would cause major confusion to passengers. So why is it different for the X10 and X11? The number is only incremented by 1 so surely it must just be a normal service!

They could have called it anything, heck even the X69420, but no, they picked X11

So your issue is that it is numbered the X11? I think you'd find that even if it was numbered the X69420, painted lime green with pink elephants on the side of it, you'd still get people trying to use their ENCTS pass on it!

(03 Apr 2021, 1:23 pm)Adrian wrote I think people are massively over-thinking this. Its a one-run a day service, clearly designed for a day-trip/tourist market to Whitby and Scarborough. 

Not being able to use the X11 as an alternative to the X9/X10 service is not going to piss people off to the point of using the train. There's an X9 that leaves Newcastle 8 minutes earlier, and from a completely different place, and an X10 that leaves 22 minutes later. The walk to Newcastle station, waiting for a once-an-hour train to Middlesbrough (that takes longer! and will cost you £12 return) is hardly worth the tantrum.

It doesn't need to be integrated into an already simple to understand X9/X10 service. There is a frequent enough service between the two destinations and is easy to remember that it departs at xx.02 and xx.32 from Newcastle or xx.15 and xx.45 from Middlesbrough each hour. How do you integrate a one  a day service into that? You really can't.

I don't understand the points about branding confusion. The service departs from different places at all the bus stations it serves and the destination will tell you where it's going. If you're suggesting "just because it's Xlines", then what about the X7 Pulsars from Newcastle to Blyth and the X12 Pulsars from Newcastle to Middlesbrough? I'd be surprised if a single customer has ever been confused enough to get those two mixed up.

If you don't want to go to Whitby or Scarborough, then use the existing services and existing ticket range available.

Except it's not that clear. As has been pointed out umpteen times.
Passengers are passengers. Some more intelligent than others. If there's not very many obvious differences to enthusiasts. Then how are ordinary passengers going to tell the difference?

You can apply all sorts of theories and methodologies to analyse this project and with each one, obvious flaws jump out.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:48 pm)Andreos1 wrote Except it's not that clear. As has been pointed out umpteen times.
Passengers are passengers. Some more intelligent than others. If there's not very many obvious differences to enthusiasts. Then how are ordinary passengers going to tell the difference?

You can apply all sorts of theories and methodologies to analyse this project and with each one, obvious flaws jump out.

If the destination display reads "Scarborough via Whitby" on the southbound journey, not referencing Middlesbrough at all, it carries a unique number (i.e. not X9 or X10), all marketing and promotion shows the X11 as being a separate entity (but is promoted as a 'day out' to Whitby and Scarborough along the route), and the service uses different stands in bus stations... How isn't it that clear?

Whilst you're very quick to point out alleged flaws, you're yet to acknowledge any of the flaws in your own argument, or acknowledge any of the points made in counter-argument.

I'm confused to why people are complaining that it's numbered X11 because it's next to X9/X10. It's like saying the 20 and 21 or the 27 and 28 are similar routes because they are numbered next to each other but go completely different directions even though they share one area that they both service (Durham 20/21 and Newcastle / Gateshead 27/28). Amazed no one has gone on about saying Arriva has an X11 that runs to Newcastle, what if passengers get confused by that, but then you have to add a number of other routes into the arguement. Basically it's a family size can of worms.

(03 Apr 2021, 2:42 pm)Rapidsnap wrote I'm confused to why people are complaining that it's numbered X11 because it's next to X9/X10. It's like saying the 20 and 21 or the 27 and 28 are similar routes because they are numbered next to each other but go completely different directions even though they share one area that they both service (Durham 20/21 and Newcastle / Gateshead 27/28). Amazed no one has gone on about saying Arriva has an X11 that runs to Newcastle, what if passengers get confused by that, but then you have to add a number of other routes into the arguement. Basically it's a family size can of worms.

This is a bit different though, it's not just one area that they share.
The X11 is basically an X9/X10 that goes via Washington, and then continues further

If I was travelling to basically any destination along the X10 route, I could, if tickets allowed, use the X11 instead.
The same argument could not be made for the 20/21 or 27/28.

If I was going to mention Arriva's X11, then I'd have to mention the fact that Arriva has an X21 that goes North from Newcastle as well. It's pretty obvious that the Arriva and GNE services are different (different operators, different destinations)

With the X9/X10/X11 they're similar enough in number, vehicles used, livery, destinations that it /could/ cause confusion to some people.

Just to add another hypothetical situation:
Imagine if GNE wanted to run a service from Newcastle to Berwick, following the 309/310 route then continuing up the coast and numbered it 311 and run it using Cobalt and Coast buses.

Surely the fact that the destination and route number is different is enough for people to realise it's a special service and their normal ticket isn't valid?

(03 Apr 2021, 1:52 pm)Dan wrote If the destination display reads "Scarborough via Whitby" on the southbound journey, not referencing Middlesbrough at all, it carries a unique number (i.e. not X9 or X10), all marketing and promotion shows the X11 as being a separate entity (but is promoted as a 'day out' to Whitby and Scarborough along the route), and the service uses different stands in bus stations... How isn't it that clear?

Whilst you're very quick to point out alleged flaws, you're yet to acknowledge any of the flaws in your own argument, or acknowledge any of the points made in counter-argument.

You alright hun? Dm me.

(03 Apr 2021, 1:41 pm)Dan wrote I do acknowledge the points on the numbering potentially leading to some confusion, but I still think it's unlikely. As Adrian mentioned in his previous post, the service is using different stands in Gateshead and Heworth, so I think that will rule out most confusion, as, chances are, those passengers will be waiting at the stand the X9/X10 services usually serve. There is argument for numbering it consecutively and running the familiar X-lines bus, in that it can be more easily identified as a Go North East bus. There's not a lot of appeal to anonymous-looking buses, and, arguably, could be why past services (such as the Pygalls Coaches 230 service between Sunderland and Hartlepool) have failed.

I'd think the issue on numbering it as the X11 would come into play if it was a more frequent service, as some folks on here were thinking when it was first 'announced'. If you had a 60 minute service complementing the X9/X10 but with it's own special fare system, then I would see how there could be confusion. 

As it is, however, the service leaves all key points (Newcastle/Gateshead/Heworth on the same route) at different stops to the established X9/X10. Further, with it being a daily service, I cannot see anyone stumbling across it by accident thinking it is an X9/X10? You'd have to be awfully unlucky to get people going to the wrong stand for an X9/X10 at the exact moment the X11 passes through. Then when we get further south, I don't see it being hugely problematic at Middlesbrough either, the other 2 terminate there and pensioners (and, if we're honest, virtually everyone else) will likely use the established X93.

I don't see a problem with it. The fact is number one. It's gonna be an unbranded bus. Number 2 it starts somewhere completely different. Number 3 it runs non stop between Washington and Middlesbrough. Number 4 like Dan point out it will more likely say Scarborough Via Whitby so there's no indication it runs past Middlesbrough. Number 5 it runs once in the morning and once at Night. I don't see a problem with it being Numbered X11. If it ran from the same stand as the X9/X10. Yea I'd understand but it isn't

(03 Apr 2021, 4:22 pm)MichealAaron wrote I don't see a problem with it. The fact is number one. It's gonna be an unbranded bus. Number 2 it starts somewhere completely different. Number 3 it runs non stop between Washington and Middlesbrough. Number 4 like Dan point out it will more likely say Scarborough Via Whitby so there's no indication it runs past Middlesbrough. Number 5 it runs once in the morning and once at Night. I don't see a problem with it being Numbered X11. If it ran from the same stand as the X9/X10. Yea I'd understand but it isn't

You've made a few mistakes there, it's branded X-Lines and it's not non-stop between Washington and Middlesbrough. Imo what the destination says makes no difference though as the X9 and X10 say Peterlee / Dalton Park anyway.

The number makes no sense imo and should be the X60 (for obvious reasons - it's free marketing) or the X90 as the 90's are traditionally allocated to Whitby services and it gives a nod to the X93 for those who already know about it (X9 / X10 to X93 customers). There's also no clashes with either of them at any point, 60 and 90 being both unused in both Newcastle, Washington and Middlesbrough

Also not seen it mentioned but is the fare £15 from any point on the route because £15 from Newcastle to Scarborough is good value for money. £15 from Middlesbrough or Ormesby Crossroads on the otherhand is a complete rip off, don't see the point in stopping at either of them really especially since GNE don't connect to either of the places and people would choose the X93 instead for half the price (nearly). Could've shaved a good 15/20 minutes off there.

Look tbh I don't see why people have a massive problem with it. Go North East could have not done this at all. It's just a route and nobody bare the enthusiasts are gonna care. I highly doubt I member of the public is gonna care about its number

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And yes I get its X Lines but it's 6377 from what I've heard there using. Which means it's Charlie so it's not gonna be branded showing any destination like the X9/X10 Coaches do

(03 Apr 2021, 4:46 pm)Storx wrote You've made a few mistakes there, it's branded X-Lines and it's not non-stop between Washington and Middlesbrough. Imo what the destination says makes no difference though as the X9 and X10 say Peterlee / Dalton Park anyway.

The number makes no sense imo and should be the X60 (for obvious reasons - it's free marketing) or the X90 as the 90's are traditionally allocated to Whitby services and it gives a nod to the X93 for those who already know about it (X9 / X10 to X93 customers). There's also no clashes with either of them at any point, 60 and 90 being both unused in both Newcastle, Washington and Middlesbrough

I don't understand why you'd think the number makes no sense but then suggest the X60? How many people, outside of the enthusiast community, are going to remember the X60? I don't understand how it provides free marketing either. It's been dead and buried for years. 

As for X90, again, I don't see how this provides any benefits over being an X11? 9x services may well be traditionally allocated to Whitby services, but there's no regulation on route numbers, and it probably makes little difference to passengers in Tyne and Wear, what had its own traditional numbering system.

(03 Apr 2021, 4:46 pm)Storx wrote Also not seen it mentioned but is the fare £15 from any point on the route because £15 from Newcastle to Scarborough is good value for money. £15 from Middlesbrough or Ormesby Crossroads on the otherhand is a complete rip off, don't see the point in stopping at either of them really especially since GNE don't connect to either of the places and people would choose the X93 instead for half the price (nearly). Could've shaved a good 15/20 minutes off there.

I'd suggest this service is not trying to primarily attract those customers more local, when they already have an existing local bus service. Although they may end up using it, after the frustration they encounter in trying to find ticket options on the god awful Arriva website

(03 Apr 2021, 5:18 pm)Adrian wrote I don't understand why you'd think the number makes no sense but then suggest the X60? How many people, outside of the enthusiast community, are going to remember the X60? I don't understand how it provides free marketing either. It's been dead and buried for years. 

As for X90, again, I don't see how this provides any benefits over being an X11? 9x services may well be traditionally allocated to Whitby services, but there's no regulation on route numbers, and it probably makes little difference to passengers in Tyne and Wear, what had its own traditional numbering system.


I'd suggest this service is not trying to primarily attract those customers more local, when they already have an existing local bus service. Although they may end up using it, after the frustration they encounter in trying to find ticket options on the god awful Arriva website 

Someone might remember it, people are weird and remember little things like that. For instance everyone around here remembers the 363/364 (current X7) and that's been dead and buried for even longer.

For the X90 it was more thinking about picking up passengers from Middlesbrough who didn't need another service. It's a fair bit quicker nearly 30 minutes quicker to Scarborough and if there's only 2 people on before then why not fill it up. It's money afterall. If the bus is full, well they're not getting on anyway so it's no loss to GNE. Surprised there's not a slightly cheaper ticket more around the £10 mark for those from those 2 points (still dearer than Arriva but it's a premium service afterall) who want to save the 60 minutes - if it was the times I wanted to be there I'd pay it tbh but £15 is just too much.

The Arriva website is terrible agreed mind spent about 10 minutes trying to find a X93 ticket there (but guessing there's not one bar the North Yorkshire 3 Day Tickets for £19 I think they were which I've never heard about before ngl)

(03 Apr 2021, 4:46 pm)Storx wrote Also not seen it mentioned but is the fare £15 from any point on the route because £15 from Newcastle to Scarborough is good value for money. £15 from Middlesbrough or Ormesby Crossroads on the otherhand is a complete rip off, don't see the point in stopping at either of them really especially since GNE don't connect to either of the places and people would choose the X93 instead for half the price (nearly). Could've shaved a good 15/20 minutes off there.

Got to remember that the X11 isn't aimed at local journeys. It's aimed at punters from between Newcastle and M'Boro (not including M'Boro) having a day out. Anyone between M'Boro and Scarborough will most likely use the X93 anyways.

If GNE attracted local journeys, that could cause capacity issues.

(03 Apr 2021, 8:14 pm)L469 YVK wrote Got to remember that the X11 isn't aimed at local journeys. It's aimed at punters from between Newcastle and M'Boro (not including M'Boro) having a day out. Anyone between M'Boro and Scarborough will most likely use the X93 anyways.

If GNE attracted local journeys, that could cause capacity issues.

See I was thinking that but it shouldn't be an issue as all the Newcastle / A19 passengers will be on already by that point. As long as they're all going to Scarborough and Whitby then it's just extra bums on seats wanting a nicer vehicle and to save 30 minutes EW to Scarborough. If there is any capacity problems then it's just going to be those getting on at Middlesbrough and Ormseby and as you said they've got the X93.

If there's only 2 passengers travelling from Newcastle to Billingham you might aswell try and fill the rest of the seats with punters paying a tenner to save an hour from Middlesbrough than have 2 passengers to Scarborough whereas if the bus is full from Newcastle to Billingham, the extras will have to get the X93 instead. It's a no lose for GNE imo.

That problem only happens if it's full of Newcastle passengers to stops to Boro or before.

Maybe there is lower fares for between Middlesbrough and Scarborough, just that GNE haven't advertised them.

(03 Apr 2021, 10:29 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Maybe there is lower fares for between Middlesbrough and Scarborough, just that GNE haven't advertised them.

Doubt it, you're not going to risk having to deploy another bus to make sure everyone gets back for the sake of a dozen or so reduced fares between Boro and Scarborough/Whitby.

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