(17 Aug 2021, 3:48 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving

Obviously, as a car user, I should declare an interest in opposing such a measure, but I don't think the solution as to how you might encourage people to use public transport lies in pricing motorists off the road in an attempt to force them to switch. For me, the choice should remain with the user otherwise cars are destined to become the preserve of the rich and powerful. Obviously there is a ecological argument to be had against motor-vehicles powered by fossil fuels but what happens if (or when) the majority of motor-vehicles are powered by electricity or other means. Is it fair to penalise motorists if that ever becomes the case?

Thoughts?

Talk about race to the bottom... the only idea they have to improve the appeal of public transport is to make the alternative worse?  What's the opposite of progress?  Idiots.

Let's make car journeys more expensive, while at the same time slashing bus networks and referring to the North as anywhere south of Leeds and north of the M25.

(17 Aug 2021, 3:48 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving

Obviously, as a car user, I should declare an interest in opposing such a measure, but I don't think the solution as to how you might encourage people to use public transport lies in pricing motorists off the road in an attempt to force them to switch. For me, the choice should remain with the user otherwise cars are destined to become the preserve of the rich and powerful. Obviously there is a ecological argument to be had against motor-vehicles powered by fossil fuels but what happens if (or when) the majority of motor-vehicles are powered by electricity or other means. Is it fair to penalise motorists if that ever becomes the case?

Thoughts?

I've not read the link yet, but it's pretty standard fare from an organisation with a particular agenda.
It's the easy option, that lacks imagination or creativity. 

If that's as creative and innovative they can get... Well aye.
Sad times.

You can't force people out of their cars but I think electric cars will fry the National Grid. So if people want to keep using items such as TV's, Computers, etc... they might have to.

(17 Aug 2021, 7:03 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote You can't force people out of their cars but I think electric cars will fry the National Grid. So if people want to keep using items such as TV's, Computers, etc... they might have to.

Not necessarily, there is plenty of capacity in the grid, just not at peak times. In fact, there is quite a surplus of power at night to the point where energy companies such as Octopus pay customers to use it, which is why they're popular with EV owners.

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(17 Aug 2021, 3:48 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving

Obviously, as a car user, I should declare an interest in opposing such a measure, but I don't think the solution as to how you might encourage people to use public transport lies in pricing motorists off the road in an attempt to force them to switch. For me, the choice should remain with the user otherwise cars are destined to become the preserve of the rich and powerful. Obviously there is a ecological argument to be had against motor-vehicles powered by fossil fuels but what happens if (or when) the majority of motor-vehicles are powered by electricity or other means. Is it fair to penalise motorists if that ever becomes the case?

Thoughts?

To be honest, this comes across as nothing more than an effort by the TfN boss to generate some cheap heat. It actually takes the focus off a genuine issue of making public transport better and cheaper, because all anyone will focus on is a desire to apply more taxes to motorists.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the answer. It's not going to force motorists out of their cars. If anything, it'll result in motorists having less money in their pocket, which has a wider knock-on impact on the rest of the economy - and less money to use public transport with...

(17 Aug 2021, 7:03 pm)ASX_Terranova wrote You can't force people out of their cars but I think electric cars will fry the National Grid. So if people want to keep using items such as TV's, Computers, etc... they might have to.

It'll only 'fry' the National Grid if we continue to not properly invest in national infrastructure. 

The Government have lofty ambitions of making the UK a 'world leader' in green energy, but 2050 is too far down the line and unfortunately I take their soundbites with a pinch of salt.

Making driving more expensive just punishes people and families on low incomes who can't afford to run anything more than a banger, anyhow, but can't afford bus fare, possibly times 2 to get to work - or work somewhere not well served by public transport. Husband's office is in a business park a good 15 minutes walk from the nearest active bus stop, not that he can get there for an 8am start, by bus, anyhow. Admittedly his commute is long, Durham to Teesside, but we moved closer to littlun's special school because he struggles with long journeys. (thank fudge for working from home!)

I certainly can't see people being desperate to use the bus in Durham, if they don't have to, for a while. Had to make another visit to the optician's, this afternoon and while it's a nice walk in, I'm too sore and arthritic to manage the uphill slog home again, at the moment, so decided to catch the bus home. There was a 21 in but a massive queue for it. Never mind, anything that takes me up to the hospital is welcome. Fought my way through the crowds on North Road and just missed a 16. Kept going and just missed a 62 and then an X20. Annoyingly, the X20 didn't get very far as it got stuck in a queue, not helped by a broken down E200 on the 49a. Eventually a 64 turned up (they're on reduced frequency, at the moment) and it was a JH president. It had to stop in the road because the bus stop was blocked in. And it's a good thing I took my handbag and not just my card wallet because they're cash only. That'll catch a lot of people out.

---

There's a couple of rapid chargers in view of my house. Installed 3 years ago. I've seen them in use twice.

Having just purchased a new (used) car, an electric vehicle was something I briefly considered. However the costs outweigh the benefits at present and until there's significant investment in the overall infrastructure combined with a reduction of the initial outlay (for me, personally, the car and the driveway I'll need to install a charging point), I feel owning an electric vehicle will be outside of the financial reach of many.

Battery technology seems to be improving on electric vehicles which means that other prohibitive factor, range anxiety, will become less over time. The cost of charging isn't too bad at present and, providing you have a driveway and charging point at home, it can pretty cheap overall on selective tarriffs as Streetdeckfan points out above.

(18 Aug 2021, 9:31 am)MurdnunoC wrote Having just purchased a new (used) car, an electric vehicle was something I briefly considered. However the costs outweigh the benefits at present and until there's significant investment in the overall infrastructure combined with a reduction of the initial outlay (for me, personally, the car and the driveway I'll need to install a charging point), I feel owning an electric vehicle will be outside of the financial reach of many.

Battery technology seems to be improving on electric vehicles which means that other prohibitive factor, range anxiety, will become less over time. The cost of charging isn't too bad at present and, providing you have a driveway and charging point at home, it can pretty cheap overall on selective tarriffs as Streetdeckfan points out above.

I've just purchased one through work and in honesty I did it for the massive tax write off that accompanies it with Leaseplan.

Got the charging point installed for £400 - again through a work referral though I've sent it for £449 without. Not really noticing much difference in electric costs, certainly cheaper than filling up in Costco where I used to go.

(18 Aug 2021, 11:18 am)Ambassador wrote I've just purchased one through work and in honesty I did it for the massive tax write off that accompanies it with Leaseplan.

Got the charging point installed for £400 - again through a work referral though I've sent it for £449 without. Not really noticing much difference in electric costs, certainly cheaper than filling up in Costco where I used to go.

My mother has been looking at getting an EV for years now, but due to the near 4m drop from the road to the house it's physically impossible to charge at home. 
I'm lucky in that I can have off road parking, so if I ever decide to get a car, it will be electric.

And to be honest, even today I've been considering actually learning to drive.
Since the last X21 from Gateshead to Bishop now leaves at ~9:30pm, it's been an absolute pain trying to go to the cinema with friends. One finishes work at 6:30pm, and really the latest a film can start for it to end in time for me to catch the last bus is 7pm, so there's literally like 2 options available.

In the past it would have been fine since I believe the last bus left ~11pm, but since they haven't put the later buses back on I'm a bit screwed!

I think that public transport organisations need to consult with car drivers about what would attract them out of their cars, rather than guess (in some cases, pretty badly) what they want. I couldn't care less if the bus is "posher than my car" or if it's "the green machine". I want to travel by the quickest and cheapest way possible.

In terms of cost, as an existing car driver when travelling to Newcastle, it's actually cheaper for me to use a Metro park and ride if travelling alone, or to drive into the city centre if I'm sharing the journey. I've broken down the costs of each mode of transport to show how poor value for money the bus is.


Metro park and ride

• drive to Northumberland Park | 20 minutes | £2.40 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• park, walk and wait for the Metro | average 5-10 minutes | £1.20 parking fee
  
• take the Metro to Haymarket | 17 minutes | £3.75 return with Pop PAYG
  total journey time 42-47 minutes, total cost £7.35, two people (sharing cost of fuel and parking, add £3.75 Metro ticket) £5.55 per person
  

Arriva bus

• walk to bus stop and wait for X21 | 5 minutes
  
• take the X21 to Haymarket | 55 minutes | £7.50 return
  total journey time 60 minutes, total cost £7.50, two people (sharing cost with duo ticket) £7.25 per person
  

Driving into the city centre (cheapest car park)

• drive to St James' MSCP | average 30-35 minutes | £3.64 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• find a parking space and pay for parking | 5 minutes | £0.80 per hour (£4.00 for 5 hours)
  
• walk to Haymarket | 10 minutes
  total journey time 45-50 minutes, total cost £7.64, two people (sharing cost) £3.82 per person
  

Bus operators need to work on bringing their prices down, matching the specifications of cars, providing consistent levels of service and providing a similar journey time between major towns and cities, otherwise car drivers will not be interested. Instead, the one company actively marketing themselves, are focusing on claiming to be "better than ever", pushing anti-car messaging or promoting their green credentials - is this something that a car driver will actually care about?

(18 Aug 2021, 4:02 pm)omnicity4659 wrote I think that public transport organisations need to consult with car drivers what would attract them out of their cars, rather than guess (in some cases, pretty badly) what they want. I couldn't care less if the bus is "posher than my car" or if it's "the green machine". I want to travel by the quickest and cheapest way possible.

In terms of cost, as an existing car driver, it's actually cheaper for me to use a Metro park and ride if travelling alone, or to drive into the city centre if I'm sharing the journey. I've broken down the costs of each mode of transport to show how poor value for money the bus is.


Metro park and ride

• drive to Northumberland Park | 20 minutes | £2.40 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• park, walk and wait for the Metro | average 5-10 minutes | £1.20 parking fee
  
• take the Metro to Haymarket | 17 minutes | £3.75 return with Pop PAYG
  total journey time 42-47 minutes, total cost £7.35, two people (sharing cost of fuel and parking, add £3.75 Metro ticket) £5.55 per person
  

Arriva bus

• walk to bus stop and wait for X21 | 5 minutes
  
• take the X21 to Haymarket | 55 minutes | £7.50 return
  total journey time 60 minutes, total cost £7.50, two people (sharing cost with duo ticket) £7.25 per person
  

Driving into the city centre (cheapest car park)

• drive to St James' MSCP | average 30-35 minutes | £3.64 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• find a parking space and pay for parking | 5 minutes | £0.80 per hour (£4.00 for 5 hours)
  
• walk to Haymarket | 10 minutes
  total journey time 45-50 minutes, total cost £7.64, two people (sharing cost) £3.82 per person
  

Bus operators need to work on bringing their prices down, matching the specifications of cars, providing consistent levels of service and providing a similar journey time between major towns and cities, otherwise car drivers will not be interested. Instead, the one company actively marketing themselves, are focusing on claiming to be "better than ever", pushing anti-car messaging or promoting their green credentials - is this something that a car driver will actually care about?

To be fair, costings like this don't take into account wear and tear, decreasing value etc.
As we are now 19 years away from net zero emissons, I would happily see anti car measures across all counties not just in Newcastle city centre. People have had the easy, responsibility-free life for too long. Public transport is the only viable option, people can either use it, and accept a degree of responsibility , or carry on the way they are and find themselves in deep water come 2040.

To be fair, costings like this don't take into account wear and tear, decreasing value etc.

As we are now 19 years away from net zero emissions, I would happily see anti car measures across all counties not just in Newcastle city centre. People have had the easy, responsibility-free life for too long. Public transport is the only viable option, people can either use it, and accept a degree of responsibility , or carry on the way they are and find themselves in deep water come 2040.

They're costs that come out of my bank account on the day rather than taking into account the overall costs of running a car - which in fairness still apply regardless of which mode of transport I pick for that rare daytime journey into Newcastle, rather than my usual car journeys that'll take 30 minutes in the car but 3 hours on a bus etc.

Electric cars will become the norm, and e-scooters may be legalised for private use - both would change my habits. But if buses remain the same, then it'll still be the least favourable option.

(18 Aug 2021, 4:02 pm)omnicity4659 wrote I think that public transport organisations need to consult with car drivers about what would attract them out of their cars, rather than guess (in some cases, pretty badly) what they want. I couldn't care less if the bus is "posher than my car" or if it's "the green machine". I want to travel by the quickest and cheapest way possible.

In terms of cost, as an existing car driver when travelling to Newcastle, it's actually cheaper for me to use a Metro park and ride if travelling alone, or to drive into the city centre if I'm sharing the journey. I've broken down the costs of each mode of transport to show how poor value for money the bus is.


Metro park and ride

• drive to Northumberland Park | 20 minutes | £2.40 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• park, walk and wait for the Metro | average 5-10 minutes | £1.20 parking fee
  
• take the Metro to Haymarket | 17 minutes | £3.75 return with Pop PAYG
  total journey time 42-47 minutes, total cost £7.35, two people (sharing cost of fuel and parking, add £3.75 Metro ticket) £5.55 per person
  

Arriva bus

• walk to bus stop and wait for X21 | 5 minutes
  
• take the X21 to Haymarket | 55 minutes | £7.50 return
  total journey time 60 minutes, total cost £7.50, two people (sharing cost with duo ticket) £7.25 per person
  

Driving into the city centre (cheapest car park)

• drive to St James' MSCP | average 30-35 minutes | £3.64 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• find a parking space and pay for parking | 5 minutes | £0.80 per hour (£4.00 for 5 hours)
  
• walk to Haymarket | 10 minutes
  total journey time 45-50 minutes, total cost £7.64, two people (sharing cost) £3.82 per person
  

Bus operators need to work on bringing their prices down, matching the specifications of cars, providing consistent levels of service and providing a similar journey time between major towns and cities, otherwise car drivers will not be interested. Instead, the one company actively marketing themselves, are focusing on claiming to be "better than ever", pushing anti-car messaging or promoting their green credentials - is this something that a car driver will actually care about?

This is exactly why they need to make a big push in encouraging people to use the bus before they get a car.

Once you have a car, you're tied into the expense, but for someone like me who doesn't have a car, a monthly all zone pass is cheaper than the insurance for someone my age never mind the car payments, fuel, or tax!

There's also the discussion around buses serving estates, surely serving the estates with lower passenger numbers should be seen as an investment for passengers of the future. If the service is shit, they're not going to get the youth to use it, and they're going to get a car!

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(18 Aug 2021, 4:25 pm)omnicity4659 wrote They're costs that come out of my bank account on the day rather than taking into account the overall costs of running a car - which in fairness still apply regardless of which mode of transport I pick for that rare daytime journey into Newcastle, rather than my usual car journeys that'll take 30 minutes in the car but 3 hours on a bus etc.

Electric cars will become the norm, and e-scooters may be legalised for private use - both would change my habits. But if buses remain the same, then it'll still be the least favourable option.

Depends a great deal on how the regime sees fit to expand electric buses. Costs need to reflect investment as well, the majority of car drivers can't afford EVs, and no government is going to underwrite the bill for complete vehicle replacement.
Arriva are in an unenviable position of spiralling maintenance costs because of the zero investment as the sale proposition looks less and less attractive to anyone. once again highlighting the frailty of monopolies. Stagecoach and Go should offer alternatives, and the railway re-opening ought to offer greater choice. The bus companies can't keep cutting fares when capital expenditure across the board has been miniscule and that only by GNE.

(18 Aug 2021, 4:02 pm)omnicity4659 wrote I think that public transport organisations need to consult with car drivers about what would attract them out of their cars, rather than guess (in some cases, pretty badly) what they want. I couldn't care less if the bus is "posher than my car" or if it's "the green machine". I want to travel by the quickest and cheapest way possible.

Tbf - they are doing exactly that right now: https://www.transportnortheast.gov.uk/bi...versation/

Though doing it whilst in the process of slashing services may not get them the responses they want!

(18 Aug 2021, 4:02 pm)omnicity4659 wrote Metro park and ride

• drive to Northumberland Park | 20 minutes | £2.40 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• park, walk and wait for the Metro | average 5-10 minutes | £1.20 parking fee
  
• take the Metro to Haymarket | 17 minutes | £3.75 return with Pop PAYG
  total journey time 42-47 minutes, total cost £7.35, two people (sharing cost of fuel and parking, add £3.75 Metro ticket) £5.55 per person
  

Arriva bus

• walk to bus stop and wait for X21 | 5 minutes
  
• take the X21 to Haymarket | 55 minutes | £7.50 return
  total journey time 60 minutes, total cost £7.50, two people (sharing cost with duo ticket) £7.25 per person
  

Driving into the city centre (cheapest car park)

• drive to St James' MSCP | average 30-35 minutes | £3.64 in diesel (round-trip)
  
• find a parking space and pay for parking | 5 minutes | £0.80 per hour (£4.00 for 5 hours)
  
• walk to Haymarket | 10 minutes
  total journey time 45-50 minutes, total cost £7.64, two people (sharing cost) £3.82 per person
  

As a comparison for a bit further along the same route, and adjusted for my MPG:

Metro park and ride

• drive to Kingston Park | 19 minutes | £3.33 in petrol (round-trip)
  
• park, walk and wait for the Metro | average 5-10 minutes | £1.30 parking fee
  
• take the Metro to Haymarket | 15 minutes | £4.40 Two Zone Ticket
  total journey time 39-44 minutes, total cost £9.03, two people (sharing cost of fuel and parking, add £4.40 Metro ticket) £6.72 per person
  

Arriva bus

• walk to bus stop and wait for X21 | 10 minutes
  
• take the X21 to Haymarket | 32 minutes | £7.50 return
  total journey time 42 minutes, total cost £7.50, two people (sharing cost with duo ticket) £7.25 per person
  

Driving into the city centre (cheapest car park)

• drive to St James' MSCP | average 25-30 minutes | £4.34 in petrol (round-trip)
  
• find a parking space and pay for parking | 5 minutes | £0.80 per hour (£4.00 for 5 hours)
  
• walk to Haymarket | 10 minutes
  total journey time 40-45 minutes, total cost £8.34, two people (sharing cost) £4.17 per person
  

Journey times for my usual trip when in the NE are virtually identical between those three options. Cost wise I've got bigger differences than you do, but the bus comes in cheapest with the Metro option being pretty unattractive across the board. Realistically if I'm going to town it's usually to meet people through there, and there's always the chance of us popping for a drink somewhere, which immediately cuts out the car options regardless - which I imagine is true for many folk on a weekend or evening. I don't doubt that bus companies need to do more with fares, particularly for 2+ people as we've both shown, but it surprised me that a solo trip to Newcastle would cost me nearly a quid more in the car (even excluding associated running costs).

Reasons I prefer driving my car than using the bus....

1. Cost - While the price of using the bus is higher per journey than the equivilant cost in diesel. Factoring in tax, insurance and maintenance makes the car considerably more expensive. But because I'd still need to keep the car for occasions buses don't run or the car is generally more approprate such as long trips or Sunday evenings. I'd still have to pay for tax, insurance and maintanence anyway, so by that stage, I can't afford bus fares on top of those costs. Particularly as I find myself on the wrong side of the Durham  District / Peterlee District ticket border. This is made even less clear as the "East Durham All Zones" doesnt seem to cover the entire 3 East Durham zones as I'd assume it would.

2. Reliability - I appreciate there's a driver shortage and timetables have been adjusted to suit. But the operators are still missing trips out and I'm not willing to spent half a hour at the stop to see if the next bus is going to arrive or not. I also recall snowy winters when the buses ran whenever they ran - if at all! So there clearly isn't the local authority infrastucture to deal with cold snaps.

3. Seating - Arriva 24 is the only service through my village which invariably seems to be ran by their "Saphirre" fleet, with rock hard leather seats. Bus seating overall has became less comfortable generally since the l;ate 90's but those leather ones really are something else. My car also has leather seats - but they're comfortable, heated and have lumbar support and I happily drove non stop for 6 hour to the South West the other month and was absolutely fine. 30 minutes on one of those Shitirre buses and I've a numb bum and the back pain is unreal.

4. Windows - I've no specific issue regarding window adverts. But they always seem to put them at the bottom of the window, smack in the middle of my eye line when I'm sat down. And one of the major advantages of catching the bus is being able to look at the scenery instead of watching the road. I hate getting on a but and having to try and hunt for a seat where I can actually see through the window. In winter, this is impossible anyway as the windows are always rotten.

5. Rattles - This seems to be Wrightbus specific. The Scania's and ADL's I've been on recently have been okay. My car (like me) is getting on a bit and comes with the odd rattle here and there. But them Wright's!

Once we've got passed those little issues, I'll happily use the bus more.

(17 Aug 2021, 3:48 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Transport for the North boss calls for debate on raising cost of driving

Obviously, as a car user, I should declare an interest in opposing such a measure, but I don't think the solution as to how you might encourage people to use public transport lies in pricing motorists off the road in an attempt to force them to switch. For me, the choice should remain with the user otherwise cars are destined to become the preserve of the rich and powerful. Obviously there is a ecological argument to be had against motor-vehicles powered by fossil fuels but what happens if (or when) the majority of motor-vehicles are powered by electricity or other means. Is it fair to penalise motorists if that ever becomes the case?

Thoughts?

I'm aware it appears I'm in the minority on this one, but the principle of something like road charging I think I could get behind.  Obviously depending on the devil in the detail.  If not road charging, then something.  Car use is only going continue going one way unless somthing changes, leather seats and wifi alone aren't going to change peoples habits.  So long as the stick of road charging is more than compensated for by the carrot of better public transport.

(19 Aug 2021, 12:32 pm)Chris 1 wrote I'm aware it appears I'm in the minority on this one, but the principle of something like road charging I think I could get behind.  Obviously depending on the devil in the detail.  If not road charging, then something.  Car use is only going continue going one way unless somthing changes, leather seats and wifi alone aren't going to change peoples habits.  So long as the stick of road charging is more than compensated for by the carrot of better public transport.

But herein lies a major issue which is never really fully addressed. What are we opposing? Pollution? Congestion? Single-occupancy car-use? Everything gets rolled into one argument when, to me at least, it is not that simplistic. For example,  reducing or eliminating pollution is an absolute must and, hopefully, new and emerging vehicle types will do this. But once you do that, one of the main drivers for reducing congestion - the environmental impact - is also reduced.

(19 Aug 2021, 2:33 pm)MurdnunoC wrote But herein lies a major issue which is never really fully addressed. What are we opposing? Pollution? Congestion? Single-occupancy car-use? Everything gets rolled into one argument when, to me at least, it is not that simplistic. For example,  reducing or eliminating pollution is an absolute must and, hopefully, new and emerging vehicle types will do this. But once you do that, one of the main drivers for reducing congestion - the environmental impact - is also reduced.

Congestion, in my mind.  Then everything else will follow.   Though I agree, it is a bit simplistic.

Unfettered use of single occupancy cars isn't an efficient use of road space.  An electric car still contributes to that congestion.  Congestion creates pollution.  Charging people a premium to use the busiest roads at the busiest times of day doesn't seem too barmy to me, and I say that as a car user.  90% of the time a single occupancy car user as well.

If not road pricing, then something else.  Peoples habits, mine included, need to change.

There's no magic bullet, no clear answer at the minute though.

Elsewhere, Wales have committed to no more new road building (I think).  Scotland have extended free travel up 22 year olds.  Both good starting points.

Personally I still think DRT will be the future but ran by someone like Uber. You go on an app, and choose where you want to travel and it gives a prediction on how long it will take to travel there by a bus being routed via stops. I know the small dabbles in it so far haven't done so well but I still think there's potential but more for a taxi replacement than anything.

They'd work very well at night imo at places like factories or pub kicking out time. If there's 100 workers going to certain places all in a similar area then it would be easy to route it around to serve multiple areas. Similar with pubs out of Newcastle when you'll see a flow of taxis all heading to the same places; Jesmond, Heaton in particular especially if the pricing was right.

Like for example around where I live near Blyth you might have 3 people wanting to go to Sainbury's at Monkseaton, 2 to Tynemouth Morrison's, 2 people wanting to go to Silverlink and 5 going to Newcastle. It'd be easy to have a bus that picks people for each of them then go non-stop from Silverlink to town while moving people from Sainburys between the two at the same time. Even if it diverted by an estate around Monkseaton.

It'd need work but imo it's the realistic future and fixes the problem we keep having about buses going to the 'wrong' places.

One of the core reasons for high fares on bus is the inadequate DfT reimbursement model for the ENCTS scheme. It is no longer realistic.

Given ENCTS accounts for anywhere between 40-50% of usage in some locations, the regular fare payer is probably forced to help balance the books, which makes your regular user fares, higher than they really should be.

Until the government sort that out, slashing fares is always a risk operators aren't willing to take. You cannot sustain losses for very long (even if there is an appetite to try to begin with).

(19 Aug 2021, 9:18 pm)Storx wrote Personally I still think DRT will be the future but ran by someone like Uber. You go on an app, and choose where you want to travel and it gives a prediction on how long it will take to travel there by a bus being routed via stops. I know the small dabbles in it so far haven't done so well but I still think there's potential but more for a taxi replacement than anything.

They'd work very well at night imo at places like factories or pub kicking out time. If there's 100 workers going to certain places all in a similar area then it would be easy to route it around to serve multiple areas. Similar with pubs out of Newcastle when you'll see a flow of taxis all heading to the same places; Jesmond, Heaton in particular especially if the pricing was right.

Like for example around where I live near Blyth you might have 3 people wanting to go to Sainbury's at Monkseaton, 2 to Tynemouth Morrison's, 2 people wanting to go to Silverlink and 5 going to Newcastle. It'd be easy to have a bus that picks people for each of them then go non-stop from Silverlink to town while moving people from Sainburys between the two at the same time. Even if it diverted by an estate around Monkseaton.

It'd need work but imo it's the realistic future and fixes the problem we keep having about buses going to the 'wrong' places.

I can't quite work out in my own mind how DRT would ever work.  In its current guise, at least.  Any 'transport' system needs go cover its costs and pay for itself to be sustainable.  DRT isn't.  In the various trials that have happened so far, the subsidy per passenger is huge.  To make it viable, you surely need bigger and fuller vehicles.  But the more people that use it, the longer the wait and the worse the passenger experience.

However, it's 'different' to the status quo so good to see operators give it a go, even if nobody has so far been able to crack it.

(20 Aug 2021, 11:15 am)Chris 1 wrote I can't quite work out in my own mind how DRT would ever work.  In its current guise, at least.  Any 'transport' system needs go cover its costs and pay for itself to be sustainable.  DRT isn't.  In the various trials that have happened so far, the subsidy per passenger is huge.  To make it viable, you surely need bigger and fuller vehicles.  But the more people that use it, the longer the wait and the worse the passenger experience.

However, it's 'different' to the status quo so good to see operators give it a go, even if nobody has so far been able to crack it.

How is DRT any different from what the likes of Uber do in the US with their 'ride sharing' option?

(20 Aug 2021, 4:28 am)RobinHood wrote One of the core reasons for high fares on bus is the inadequate DfT reimbursement model for the ENCTS scheme. It is no longer realistic.

Given ENCTS accounts for anywhere between 40-50% of usage in some locations, the regular fare payer is probably forced to help balance the books, which makes your regular user fares, higher than they really should be.

Until the government sort that out, slashing fares is always a risk operators aren't willing to take. You cannot sustain losses for very long (even if there is an appetite to try to begin with).

I'd say BSOG rates are a bigger problem than ENCTS, though I agree the reimbursement model is inadequate. I'd however still like to see the scheme extended, rather than being further cut back or withdrawn.

Government have made a vague commitment around BSOG in Bus Back Better, but sadly it looks to be more carrot and stick approach nonsense, when the real issue is that we're taxing vital infrastructure (bus services) to the hilt through fuel duty yet giving just over half back as a grant. Allowing the entirety of fuel duty to be claimed back for mileage operated as a public bus service, might actually be a better way of the Govt achieving their ideas contained in their national strategy. Lower fares, more money for investment in services, newer buses, and so on.

(20 Aug 2021, 11:29 am)streetdeckfan wrote How is DRT any different from what the likes of Uber do in the US with their 'ride sharing' option?

Not quite sure how that works over there, so can't comment?

However, based on my own admittedly limited experience of Uber over here, I paid for my Uber journey in full myself, i.e. it wasn't subsidised.  And, an Uber driver over here tends to be an owner driver.  Neither of which apply to DRT in its current form.

(20 Aug 2021, 12:57 pm)Chris 1 wrote Not quite sure how that works over there, so can't comment?

However, based on my own admittedly limited experience of Uber over here, I paid for my Uber journey in full myself, i.e. it wasn't subsidised.  And, an Uber driver over here tends to be an owner driver.  Neither of which apply to DRT in its current form.

As far as I'm aware they basically have an option to share the ride with other passengers, reducing the cost.
So say I was in Newcastle and wanted to travel to the Metrocentre, and there was another person in Gateshead wanting to go to Metrocentre, it would go via Gateshead and pick them up, and we'd both get a reduced fare.

Ah I see.

In that scenario, you and a.n. other are still paying the full fare. Be it half each, split 3 ways or whatever. A similar journey with DRT, what each passenger pays is less than it costs to operate. So each passenger journey is subsidised. It's the economics that prevent DRT from working, crack that and the potential is huge.

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(20 Aug 2021, 1:27 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As far as I'm aware they basically have an option to share the ride with other passengers, reducing the cost.
So say I was in Newcastle and wanted to travel to the Metrocentre, and there was another person in Gateshead wanting to go to Metrocentre, it would go via Gateshead and pick them up, and we'd both get a reduced fare.

Apologies for drifting off topic, but the ride sharing with a stranger comment sparked a memory - a number of years since, I remember seeing a feature on Look North.  Taxi drivers from Gateshead, were wanting to pick up fares to get them back to Gateshead.  As in, they take a fare from Gateshead to say Crawcrook, and were wanting to pick up on the streets (or bus stops) in Crawcrook on their way back so they weren't running all the way back to Gateshead empty.  I can't remember what happened with it, though I seem to recall Go North East weren't big fans of the idea!

(20 Aug 2021, 1:43 pm)Chris 1 wrote Ah I see.

In that scenario, you and a.n. other are still paying the full fare.  Be it half each, split 3 ways or whatever.  A similar journey with DRT, what each passenger pays is less than it costs to operate.  So each passenger journey is subsidised.  It's the economics that prevent DRT from working, crack that and the potential is huge.

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Apologies for drifting off topic, but the ride sharing with a stranger comment sparked a memory - a number of years since, I remember seeing a feature on Look North.  Taxi drivers from Gateshead, were wanting to pick up fares to get them back to Gateshead.  As in, they take a fare from Gateshead to say Crawcrook, and were wanting to pick up on the streets (or bus stops) in Crawcrook on their way back so they weren't running all the way back to Gateshead empty.  I can't remember what happened with it, though I seem to recall Go North East weren't big fans of the idea!

So, really the only difference is the pricing and marketing model, the principal of both DRT and 'ride sharing' is the same.
One is marketed as a shared taxi, whilst the other is marketed as an on-demand bus, but in the end both deliver essentially the same service.

(20 Aug 2021, 11:15 am)Chris 1 wrote I can't quite work out in my own mind how DRT would ever work.  In its current guise, at least.  Any 'transport' system needs go cover its costs and pay for itself to be sustainable.  DRT isn't.  In the various trials that have happened so far, the subsidy per passenger is huge.  To make it viable, you surely need bigger and fuller vehicles.  But the more people that use it, the longer the wait and the worse the passenger experience.

However, it's 'different' to the status quo so good to see operators give it a go, even if nobody has so far been able to crack it.

See in the longer term I could only see it working if it replaced some conventional bus routes aswell even if they worked with them at the same time. For example say the 28/28A issues which we're having now. It could work as a DRT service around the Chester Le Street area from the likes of Waldridge, Ouston, Pelton, Pelton Fells, Houghton Le Spring, Fence Houses then just flow directly into what would be the 21 and pick up customers as normal along Durham Road going towards Newcastle and would replace parts of the 25, 28, 28A, 29, 34 and 71.

So you'd have something like a 21 every 7.5 minutes to the Angel and every 15 minutes to Chester Le Street and depending on where people have ordered to go the 4 buses would split off at Angel and do they're own little routes to like Kibblesworth, Harlow Green, Ouston, Pelton and the other 4 from Chester Le Street going to Durham, Waldridge Park, Fencehouses or whereever.

It would work quite well along the Coast Road aswell with Whitley say have the 308 every 15 minutes to North Tyneside Hospital then every 30 minutes to Blyth via Whitley with the 2 308's ending at North Tyneside becoming a local DRT services there taking passengers to Monkseaton, Marden, Cullercoats or whereever they want to go.

Right now though all the profitable routes still exist and DRT are really only running the rump services so it'll never make a profit like that. It's very long term but some day can really see it taking of and what are 'conventional' bus routes just don't exist in most places.