(09 Sep 2021, 9:49 am)big mac wrote I've quite often seen people along Durham Road heading towards Newcastle let a 25 go past and then get on the next 21 that turns up.  I've never understood why that is as the two services northbound go to exactly the same place

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Marketing? Conditioning? Habit? Prefer the newer green bus to the older red bus?

Folk can be strange.

(09 Sep 2021, 9:56 am)Andreos1 wrote Marketing? Conditioning? Habit? Prefer the newer green bus to the older red bus?

Folk can be strange.

Probably, although knowing how long you can end up standing waiting for a 21 I'd personally be jumping straight on the first bus to Newcastle that turns up.

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does the 21 not offer a ticket you can only use on there service?

Can I ask. What was the entire point of the 21 extension to Brandon. Was in Durham for a good few hours yesterday. I saw what of all 9 people use it. Most of everyone got on the Arriva service

(09 Sep 2021, 11:43 am)Rob44 wrote does the 21 not offer a ticket you can only use on there service?

There's an Angel weekly saver which is only valid on that route.

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(09 Sep 2021, 11:55 am)Train8261 wrote Can I ask. What was the entire point of the 21 extension to Brandon. Was in Durham for a good few hours yesterday. I saw what of all 9 people use it. Most of everyone got on the Arriva service

It's literally its 4th day of operation. People often accuse operators of being short-sighted or not giving things a chance, so equally we shouldn't dismiss something new 4 days in.

I wonder what work has been done on promoting ticket validity through to Brandon though? I can see from the app that the Durham Local Saver ticket is valid, which makes it 50p cheaper on both a day and a weekly ticket. However, the Arriva 4-weekly ticket covering the zone is £52.00, whereas it would be £95.00 with GNE, due to the Durham Local Saver not being available above a weekly ticket (and 4x £15 is obviously more expensive). 

The other fares issue that I can see, is that Brandon is not included in the 'Angel Saver' zone for the £21 weekly ticket between Durham and Newcastle. Despite being both currently and historically part of the City of Durham. I'd have assumed this would have been extended, but according to the app, it hasn't. That's a bit of an own goal really, but furthermore a weekly Durham District ticket is cheaper at £19.10... which allows you to travel Bishop Auckland, Spennymoor, Crook and even Sedgefield.

The final thing to point out is that Arriva have done a lot of work in encouraging employers to sign up to their 'Employer Travel Club' scheme, which allows employees (from a company email address or by showing ID) to sign up to the scheme and purchase discounted tickets. Unlike the similar GNE scheme (Key Connect), where unless it's changed, the administration and collection is intended to be managed by the employer, Arriva will do this side of things for businesses and charge a relatively low annual fee. See Durham Uni's, for example: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/business-tra...university

I'm all for competition and extending to new areas, but I'm not convinced that people are going to be willing to pay that much of a premium to use a newer bus. Hopefully this is something that is being progressed inside the virtual Bensham.

(09 Sep 2021, 11:55 am)Train8261 wrote Can I ask. What was the entire point of the 21 extension to Brandon. Was in Durham for a good few hours yesterday. I saw what of all 9 people use it. Most of everyone got on the Arriva service

Posts like this amaze me.

This extension has been in operation for all of five days. I don't know if you think folk are going to suddenly flock from the 49/49a to the 21 when the former has been in operation since goodness knows when. If this service proves to be successful it will take weeks, months, perhaps even years to chip away at Arriva's customer base. Folk will have Arriva monthly or weekly tickets to use up first before deciding to switch. Frequency might be an issue for some as the 21 operates half-hourly to the 49s more frequent offering. There might be other factors to consider too such as familiarity of the service etc.

It's going to take time. Be patient.

(09 Sep 2021, 12:22 pm)big mac wrote There's an Angel weekly saver which is only valid on that route.

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Not valid to Brandon, according to the app.

The GNE website doesn't actually give a validity map for the ticket though.

These solo mini 39s are a joke and can’t cope at peak times. Too packed like sardines!!! Surely this isn’t good for distancing. These vehicles were too small for the x20 and its safe to say same goes for the 39. Think I’ll avoid this bus service and opt for a 2

(09 Sep 2021, 12:27 pm)Adrian wrote It's literally its 4th day of operation. People often accuse operators of being short-sighted or not giving things a chance, so equally we shouldn't dismiss something new 4 days in.

I wonder what work has been done on promoting ticket validity through to Brandon though? I can see from the app that the Durham Local Saver ticket is valid, which makes it 50p cheaper on both a day and a weekly ticket. However, the Arriva 4-weekly ticket covering the zone is £52.00, whereas it would be £95.00 with GNE, due to the Durham Local Saver not being available above a weekly ticket (and 4x £15 is obviously more expensive). 

The other fares issue that I can see, is that Brandon is not included in the 'Angel Saver' zone for the £21 weekly ticket between Durham and Newcastle. Despite being both currently and historically part of the City of Durham. I'd have assumed this would have been extended, but according to the app, it hasn't. That's a bit of an own goal really, but furthermore a weekly Durham District ticket is cheaper at £19.10... which allows you to travel Bishop Auckland, Spennymoor, Crook and even Sedgefield.

The final thing to point out is that Arriva have done a lot of work in encouraging employers to sign up to their 'Employer Travel Club' scheme, which allows employees (from a company email address or by showing ID) to sign up to the scheme and purchase discounted tickets. Unlike the similar GNE scheme (Key Connect), where unless it's changed, the administration and collection is intended to be managed by the employer, Arriva will do this side of things for businesses and charge a relatively low annual fee. See Durham Uni's, for example: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/business-tra...university

I'm all for competition and extending to new areas, but I'm not convinced that people are going to be willing to pay that much of a premium to use a newer bus. Hopefully this is something that is being progressed inside the virtual Bensham.

One other thing that concerns me about the 21 extension to Brandon is that it looks to have striking similarities to the West Auckland extension of the X21.

From what I've gathered when there's delays on the X21, GNE turn it round at Bishop Auckland and don't bother serving West Auckland in order to get the bus back to timetable. This isn't an uncommon thing to happen, and I can see the same thing happening on the Durham to Brandon bit when there's delays on the 21, which let's be honest is quite often.



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(09 Sep 2021, 12:45 pm)Acky81 wrote These solo mini 39s are a joke and can’t cope at peak times. Too packed like sardines!!! Surely this isn’t good for distancing. These vehicles were too small for the x20 and its safe to say same goes for the 39. Think I’ll avoid this bus service and opt for a 2

Absolutely bizzare putting solos on the 39 for that exact reason. They had double decker boards on the route at the end of the last school term then downgrade it to a Solo? I honestly cannot understand why.

(09 Sep 2021, 1:59 pm)deanmachine wrote Absolutely bizzare putting solos on the 39 for that exact reason. They had double decker boards on the route at the end of the last school term then downgrade it to a Solo? I honestly cannot understand why.

The allocation of double-decks was a very short-term thing and done so school duplicate services could be removed at short notice. If loadings at schooltimes prove to warrant greater capacity, it'll be far more cost-effective to run a duplicate on one trip than run a big bus all day when loadings do not warrant a big bus being operated.

Let's not forget the 39 ran on a lower frequency with smaller buses (MPDs) for many years prior to the frequency being upgraded and Streetlites being introduced.

(09 Sep 2021, 7:45 am)54APhotography wrote It's that part I refer to, previously a bouyant service of 38 family and 238/938. The section up to the Junction has increased with the 2/2A, and the rerouting of that through Hollycarrside has compensated for the loss of the aformentioned services.

You mean Tunstall Road? I suppose they have, but stagecoach operate along there too. Turning a bit into a service suggestions thread, but I wonder if they could withdraw the 38 entirely? Have the normal 39 to go around Tunstall Bank Estate, the 2A serving Leechmere Asda half hourly, the 2 on its current route half hourly and send the 61 every 20 minutes up Tunstall Road (to keep a service in that area) and have it rejoin the current 61 route to Murton at The Old B&Q. The current 61 has a lot of layover and it fills some of it with a loop of the city Centre, you could drop that to compensate a few extra minute it may take to go along Tunstall Road. The 61 could perhaps even do the docks runs too or have the 33 extended around the docks.

(09 Sep 2021, 12:48 pm)big mac wrote One other thing that concerns me about the 21 extension to Brandon is that it looks to have striking similarities to the West Auckland extension of the X21.

From what I've gathered when there's delays on the X21, GNE turn it round at Bishop Auckland and don't bother serving West Auckland in order to get the bus back to timetable.  This isn't an uncommon thing to happen, and I can see the same thing happening on the Durham to Brandon bit when there's delays on the 21, which let's be honest is quite often.

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You'll never solve the reliability of the 21 -  the pinch points at essentially Birtley all the way to Gateshead (so essentially the whole route!) will always cause issues plus the positive loadings, 

The last time it was reliable it was the 221

No need to divert a 61 when the whole of tunstall is served by stagecoach 12

(09 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm)Drifter60 wrote You mean Tunstall Road? I suppose they have, but stagecoach operate along there too. Turning a bit into a service suggestions thread, but I wonder if they could withdraw the 38 entirely? Have the normal 39 to go around Tunstall Bank Estate, the 2A serving Leechmere Asda half hourly, the 2 on its current route half hourly and send the 61 every 20 minutes up Tunstall Road (to keep a service in that area) and have it rejoin the current 61 route to Murton at The Old B&Q. The current 61 has a lot of layover and it fills some of it with a loop of the city Centre, you could drop that to compensate a few extra minute it may take to go along Tunstall Road. The 61 could perhaps even do the docks runs too or have the 33 extended around the docks.

I know this is dragging off but wonder if a new Sunderland 'loop' service to replace a few routes could work either.

Something like this for the Route 1 either every 30 minutes - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.90404...aa!1m0!3e0

Then a second loop the Route 2 doing this also every 30 minutes - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.90404...aa!1m0!3e0

Then you get arid of the 2 South of Sunderland, the 33 and 38 altogether. You could send the 62 along Tunstall Road using it's massive layover in Sunderland, send the 39A direct to Doxford Park again to get arid of the hopeless 12 / 18 timetable and have a clean 15 minutes service throughout. The docks I'm not too sure, 2 maybe.

Creates a few more links, ie Silksworth to the hospital not around the world, the 33 is every 15 minutes instead of 20 minutes. Ryhope and Chester Road get a bus to Sainsbury's and The Range.  Tunstall gets a bus to Seaham and Peterlee. Links to Barnes Park. Easily be doable in an hour with a PVR of 8 which is no increase (5x 2/2A, 1x 38, 2x 33)

There was a service, it was the 139/140.

Evening - new member here (living outside of the area but with family around County Durham)

A few questions/points re recent discussions:

Nice to see a "proper" Sunderland map online - https://images-gonortheast.passenger-web...n%20v2.pdf - but the version they've put up right now only shows service numbers in Ryhope - hopefully by tomorrow they'll have tidied it up and put on a version with layers of information all over the city!

The extension of the 21 surprised me - other than a Brandon - Arniston direct link I'm not sure what the market is - pensioners who are happy to sit on the "all stops" service all the way to Newcastle rather than changing in Durham for the X12/ X21? Extending an already long temperamental service seems asking for trouble otherwise (the congestion around North Road is bad enough once for a driver without doing it twice on the journey through Durham)

I can't see the 38s surviving for long given the diversion of the 2 via ASDA (and the Stagecoach 12)

(that's it for now - nice site you've got here btw - very informative)

(09 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm)Drifter60 wrote You mean Tunstall Road? I suppose they have, but stagecoach operate along there too. Turning a bit into a service suggestions thread, but I wonder if they could withdraw the 38 entirely? Have the normal 39 to go around Tunstall Bank Estate, the 2A serving Leechmere Asda half hourly, the 2 on its current route half hourly and send the 61 every 20 minutes up Tunstall Road (to keep a service in that area) and have it rejoin the current 61 route to Murton at The Old B&Q. The current 61 has a lot of layover and it fills some of it with a loop of the city Centre, you could drop that to compensate a few extra minute it may take to go along Tunstall Road. The 61 could perhaps even do the docks runs too or have the 33 extended around the docks.

No, my reference was Leechmere Road (Toll Bar to Tunstall) with the associated catchment of Hill View. That now only has an hourly 38 (Essen Way/Laurel Grove/Leechmere) and two 18A a day (Leechmere).

Was on the 62 from Peterlee to Dalton Park yesterday. While the service I got on just about got away with it I not sure using the small Solos on there is going to be a good idea long term as it got quite busy.

The X1 when I seen it at about 2:50 seemed to get a decent load from Dalton Park as well I nearly got on it myself but because of the heat decided to get on the 23 and come home instead. I not sure who responsible for the bus stop at Dalton park but one bus stop for the amount of services and how frequent some of them are is no longer going to work I think they might be better off building a small bus Station there instead although not sure where it could go. But when 3 buses often come together the small stand is not good enough and a small could allow more services to go there with more terminating there.

Got a bit of a question for the X1 to Dalton Park (in terms of NSA) it says Station Road, Church Lane & Dalton Park but won't say any of the others like Murton.

Is this just the cut down version of other NSA from other routes

(09 Sep 2021, 9:36 pm)col87 wrote Was on the 62 from Peterlee to Dalton Park yesterday. While the service I got on just about got away with it I not sure using the small Solos on there is going to be a good idea long term as it got quite busy. 

The X1 when I seen it at about 2:50 seemed to get a decent load from Dalton Park as well I nearly got on it myself but because of the heat decided to get on the 23 and come home instead.  I not sure who responsible for the bus stop at Dalton park but one bus stop for the amount of services and how frequent some of them are is no longer going to work I think they might be better off building a small bus Station there instead although not sure where it could go. But when 3 buses often come together the small stand is not good enough and a small could allow more services to go there with more terminating there.

There little room for a small bus station. The road system at Dalton is terrible. That needs fixing immediately. Coming up the A19 on Bank Holiday Monday (30th Aug), I witnessed how bad it was. Even running extra buses won’t deter car users, as most GNE or ANE services go around too many houses.

(09 Sep 2021, 10:42 pm)Economic505 wrote There little room for a small bus station. The road system at Dalton is terrible. That needs fixing immediately. Coming up the A19 on Bank Holiday Monday (30th Aug), I witnessed how bad it was. Even running extra buses won’t deter car users, as most GNE or ANE services go around too many houses.

Dalton Park should have had an entrance and exit straight into Murton at Dalton Terrace up from East Moor Estate. That way there would be at least two way traffic through, buses heading out of Murton would go in at Dalton Terrace and out the current entrance/exit and vice versa. You’d then be able to turn the bus turning circle into a second stand for West and North bound services. The current bus stop just for East and South bound services. And at least it would also split where other traffic came from, cars coming from Durham, Hetton and Murton itself would avoid the current roundabout. 

With regards to services going around the houses, I’m inclined to agree that’s why I’m somewhat pleasantly surprised about the 62 been so busy according to a few posters on here. It’s not exactly very quick to anywhere really!

(09 Sep 2021, 9:36 pm)col87 wrote Was on the 62 from Peterlee to Dalton Park yesterday. While the service I got on just about got away with it I not sure using the small Solos on there is going to be a good idea long term as it got quite busy. 

The X1 when I seen it at about 2:50 seemed to get a decent load from Dalton Park as well I nearly got on it myself but because of the heat decided to get on the 23 and come home instead.  I not sure who responsible for the bus stop at Dalton park but one bus stop for the amount of services and how frequent some of them are is no longer going to work I think they might be better off building a small bus Station there instead although not sure where it could go. But when 3 buses often come together the small stand is not good enough and a small could allow more services to go there with more terminating there.

Tbh I was at dalton park for a while today, I only saw 3 buses together, if anything they just need another stand. However there is no room to add more. 
Also I think the 62/X6 should be upgraded to 5377-5379 & 5389/ 5390. Also if the 62 extended upto Parkside, that would offer massive connections.

Dalton Park seems to getting more and more bus routes now, remembered Stagecoach tried express route to Newcastle from Dalton Park but did not last long.
Now the extended X1 get to cover lots of places direct to Dalton Park.

(09 Sep 2021, 7:57 pm)Yorkshire Pudding wrote Evening - new member here (living outside of the area but with family around County Durham)

A few questions/points re recent discussions:

Nice to see a "proper" Sunderland map online - https://images-gonortheast.passenger-web...n%20v2.pdf - but the version they've put up right now only shows service numbers in Ryhope - hopefully by tomorrow they'll have tidied it up and put on a version with layers of information all over the city!

The extension of the 21 surprised me - other than a Brandon - Arniston direct link I'm not sure what the market is - pensioners who are happy to sit on the "all stops" service all the way to Newcastle rather than changing in Durham for the X12/ X21? Extending an already long temperamental service seems asking for trouble otherwise (the congestion around North Road is bad enough once for a driver without doing it twice on the journey through Durham)

I can't see the 38s surviving for long given the diversion of the 2 via ASDA (and the Stagecoach 12)

(that's it for now - nice site you've got here btw - very informative)

Yeah, good to see a proper map up there.
Never quite understood what was going for the 38, 38C, 938 in recent years......

(09 Sep 2021, 11:59 pm)Keeiajs wrote Tbh I was at dalton park for a while today, I only saw 3 buses together, if anything they just need another stand. However there is no room to add more. 
Also I think the 62/X6 should be upgraded to 5377-5379 & 5389/ 5390. Also if the 62 extended upto Parkside, that would offer massive connections.

If they could get bit extended, could be a good point for interchange with a slight adjustment for a co-ordinated timetable,
say for getting the X10 from Middlesbrough and change for x6 to Sunderland.

(09 Sep 2021, 10:42 pm)Economic505 wrote There little room for a small bus station. The road system at Dalton is terrible. That needs fixing immediately. Coming up the A19 on Bank Holiday Monday (30th Aug), I witnessed how bad it was. Even running extra buses won’t deter car users, as most GNE or ANE services go around too many houses. 

Doesn't help that most of the buses go to/from the same places and follow each other.
Whilst the X1 is a welcome link and opens up the market slightly (and if timings work, an interchange option with the X10), it still does nothing to remove the duplication from elsewhere.

(09 Sep 2021, 10:42 pm)Economic505 wrote There little room for a small bus station. The road system at Dalton is terrible. That needs fixing immediately. Coming up the A19 on Bank Holiday Monday (30th Aug), I witnessed how bad it was. Even running extra buses won’t deter car users, as most GNE or ANE services go around too many houses.

If they don't go around houses, then people won't catch them, either.

(10 Sep 2021, 8:15 am)BusLoverMum wrote If they don't go around houses, then people won't catch them, either.

It’s a fine line though, I’ve got a friend who lives in Ludworth the only bus route is the Arriva 24 Durham-Hartlepool. She doesn’t drive, but actively refuses to go anywhere but Durham by bus, the journey to Durham is a pretty direct route. But the one towards Hartlepool goes round practically every estate to get to Peterlee Town Centre, Pennine Drive/Oakerside - I’m sure the whole route around Peterlee takes about 15 minutes. Too much around the houses, puts people off. One thing I will say I, I think it’s a decent decision to have the 62 avoid the estates in Easington Colliery, whilst those areas are losing one of their buses per hour, sending the service round there would just add too much time to an already long timetable.