The whole subject needs serious attention, the fact is there will be no reopening of railway lines bar the Ashington line. There will be no Metro expansion, and there will be no new money for trunk road improvements - that was clearly stamped the day after the lying clown Johnson harped on about the region and his connectivity pledge.

So, where do you start. Tax cars off the road, I'm all for that, but it's not going to happen. Promise more buses? You can't as the driver shortage isn't going away, and won't. Put more Metros on? You can't because of the signalling used, and worse to come when new trains arrive you'll have to stand on almost every journey, won't catch me or many others settling for that.

And hard as it is to muddle all this together, and wham - along comes net zero.. 

And despite what is said here, a cold reality is, nobody is listening, nobody wants to take the bull by the horns..

(03 Dec 2021, 8:23 am)Rob44 wrote You've changed your tune. You got most of your work for the day done at one of the x21 tables?!

No, I haven't. I just choose to only travel off-peak so that I can have a table to myself. 
But if given the choice of getting on a crowded bus or taking the car, I'm taking the car!

A few things from me on it.

• Covid has eroded confidence in public transport and let's be frank, it had image issues before the pandemic.
  

• Short Notice Cancellations - unavoidable but still erodes that level of confidence and requires more planning than a taxi or a car does.
  

• Hygiene and comfort - as others have eluded. I used the bus to the match on Tuesday. Journey there was on an Angel Streetdeck and it was utterly filthy on the top deck. Sandwich fillings, spilt drinks and with Covid having all the windows open an utterly miserable experience. The journey home was on an Omnidekka and that was worse, cramped, cold and it stunk. 
  

• Vast numbers of people are now home working in a hybrid model or permanently and perhaps the car becomes more affordable run if you're only in the office 2 days a week.
  

• Staying with afforfability, ticketing still hasn't caught up with the Hybrid working ethos. Network One just don't offer anything and the current options on offer from the big 3 aren't really suitable so again, use the car.
  

• I'm not entirely sure the network has adapted to new demands and the change in commuter behaviour
  

• Traffic management in Gateshead is poor in general but both Gateshead and NCC persist with this stick before carrot approach and its clearly not working.
  

(03 Dec 2021, 10:39 am)Ambassador wrote A few things from me on it.

• Covid has eroded confidence in public transport and let's be frank, it had image issues before the pandemic.
  

• Short Notice Cancellations - unavoidable but still erodes that level of confidence and requires more planning than a taxi or a car does.
  

• Hygiene and comfort - as others have eluded. I used the bus to the match on Tuesday. Journey there was on an Angel Streetdeck and it was utterly filthy on the top deck. Sandwich fillings, spilt drinks and with Covid having all the windows open an utterly miserable experience. The journey home was on an Omnidekka and that was worse, cramped, cold and it stunk. 
  

• Vast numbers of people are now home working in a hybrid model or permanently and perhaps the car becomes more affordable run if you're only in the office 2 days a week.
  

• Staying with afforfability, ticketing still hasn't caught up with the Hybrid working ethos. Network One just don't offer anything and the current options on offer from the big 3 aren't really suitable so again, use the car.
  

• I'm not entirely sure the network has adapted to new demands and the change in commuter behaviour
  

• Traffic management in Gateshead is poor in general but both Gateshead and NCC persist with this stick before carrot approach and its clearly not working.
  

Now you see i agreed with everything you said except the last bit. I think traffic management in Gateshead and Newcastle has actually improved. Its certainly quicker from my experience  to get to town from Gateshead with that new bus lane. I've literally sat for 30 minutes plus before it was changed as the bus couldn't turn right due to the cars blocking his/her turning circle.  And it should only be applauded that " cleaner" bus are required for city centre running. i rember some of the black smoke that used to be emitted from buses along northumberland street and when i was a young un!

(03 Dec 2021, 10:39 am)Ambassador wrote A few things from me on it.

• Covid has eroded confidence in public transport and let's be frank, it had image issues before the pandemic.
  

• Short Notice Cancellations - unavoidable but still erodes that level of confidence and requires more planning than a taxi or a car does.
  

• Hygiene and comfort - as others have eluded. I used the bus to the match on Tuesday. Journey there was on an Angel Streetdeck and it was utterly filthy on the top deck. Sandwich fillings, spilt drinks and with Covid having all the windows open an utterly miserable experience. The journey home was on an Omnidekka and that was worse, cramped, cold and it stunk. 
  

• Vast numbers of people are now home working in a hybrid model or permanently and perhaps the car becomes more affordable run if you're only in the office 2 days a week.
  

• Staying with afforfability, ticketing still hasn't caught up with the Hybrid working ethos. Network One just don't offer anything and the current options on offer from the big 3 aren't really suitable so again, use the car.
  

• I'm not entirely sure the network has adapted to new demands and the change in commuter behaviour
  

• Traffic management in Gateshead is poor in general but both Gateshead and NCC persist with this stick before carrot approach and its clearly not working.
  

Some really good points, but just on two of them in particular - 

Hygiene and comfort: This is a major issue in my opinion. Having been impressed with the cleaning standards throughout the lockdown periods, mainly with less people using buses, I'm finding this is starting to slip again. It's rare I get on a bus (of any operator) and don't spot multiple things. I have noticed that GNE still have hot touch point cleaning taking place at Eldon Square bus station, as I've noticed this a couple of times recently, but not anywhere else for a while now. Still, its almost a token gesture, when you have no one doing the same at Washington, Jarrow or Chester-le-Street, for example.

Staying with affordability: I like Flexi 5 and I use it, but that is because I'm popping into work less than a handful of times a month, but beyond that I don't think the current offering is compatible with the types of hybrid working that businesses are looking at. Most workplaces that I work with, they are looking at patterns of either 2 in 3 at home, or 3 in 2 at home. Given the time constraints of Flexi 5, you'd either need to buy the ticket twice at the cost of £50 for 2 days a week, or three times at the cost of £75 for 3 days a week, leaving you a couple of 'leisure' day tickets that you may not use. A weekly ticket is clearly not appropriate for either of those patterns, and at £7 a day, a day ticket isn't cost effective either. 

For me, there's two easy solutions here. The first one would be to remove the 30 day time limit to use all tickets in a Flexi 5 ticket, and this would be at notional cost (if anything) to the operator. We know its possible as other Ticketer users offer this. The second, and in addition to the first, would be to offer larger bundles at a reduced cost, e.g. 10 or 20 bundles. This would need to bridge that gap between the daily average of a monthly ticket and the daily average of one of your Flexi tickets.

(03 Dec 2021, 8:33 am)54APhotography wrote The whole subject needs serious attention, the fact is there will be no reopening of railway lines bar the Ashington line. There will be no Metro expansion, and there will be no new money for trunk road improvements - that was clearly stamped the day after the lying clown Johnson harped on about the region and his connectivity pledge.

So, where do you start. Tax cars off the road, I'm all for that, but it's not going to happen. Promise more buses? You can't as the driver shortage isn't going away, and won't. Put more Metros on? You can't because of the signalling used, and worse to come when new trains arrive you'll have to stand on almost every journey, won't catch me or many others settling for that.

And hard as it is to muddle all this together, and wham - along comes net zero.. 

And despite what is said here, a cold reality is, nobody is listening, nobody wants to take the bull by the horns..

I know this isn't really the right forum but there's a few schemes in the pipeline up here namely or in build:

• RIS2 (2020 - 2025)
  • A1 - Scotswood Widening
    
  • A1 - Angel Widening
    
  • A1 - Alnwick to Morpeth Dualling
    
• RIS3 (2026 - 2030) - Announced Wednesday
  • A19 - Seaton Burn
    
  • A19 - Moor Farm
    
  • A1 - Darrington to Doncaster (not directly up here but it helps us to travel South massively)
    
  • M1/M62 Junction - Rebuild (also not up here but it helps us to travel to Manchester / Liverpool easier so benefits the N. East)
    

Outside trunk roads I believe the Durham Northern Bypass and Blyth Relief Road are still in planning aswell, not to mention the new Sunderland bridge and road into the centre and relief road to from Ryhope to Doxford Park. There's also the new Tees bridge aswell.

Admit none of them do nothing for buses mind if anything are a hindrance bar it might take traffic rat running around local areas to help the buses travel quicker - especially the A1/A19 improvements.

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A...e-22363419&h=AT2Iq7sbk9fnbgzDvnkn7UTNN-9Zkon_Y_wbPKU1sW0UDCuwhOTzaWCIBbtu066Or7AomwsMhs3NXCPrGG-8_qD3rewkV4WciHH7o7-JJunKp_UHRrwc4TTz5hKYLDXb

Pressure grows to get buses serving major sources of employment, at times to suit employees shift patterns. 
JCP say they have potential candidates to get to Teesport. However potential candidates can't actually get to/from Teesport due to poor public transport.

(06 Dec 2021, 9:28 am)Andreos1 wrote https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A...e-22363419&h=AT2Iq7sbk9fnbgzDvnkn7UTNN-9Zkon_Y_wbPKU1sW0UDCuwhOTzaWCIBbtu066Or7AomwsMhs3NXCPrGG-8_qD3rewkV4WciHH7o7-JJunKp_UHRrwc4TTz5hKYLDXb

Pressure grows to get buses serving major sources of employment, at times to suit employees shift patterns. 
JCP say they have potential candidates to get to Teesport. However potential candidates can't actually get to/from Teesport due to poor public transport.

There are no bus services on Tees Dock Road, has there ever been?

(06 Dec 2021, 9:31 am)54APhotography wrote There are no bus services on Tees Dock Road, has there ever been?

According to the comments there was in the past.

(06 Dec 2021, 9:35 am)Andreos1 wrote According to the comments there was in the past.

Must have been a very long time ago, perhaps shift related from Grangetown. the closest you can get would be Asda, and walk along the footpath to Tees Dock !

(06 Dec 2021, 9:28 am)Andreos1 wrote https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A...e-22363419&h=AT2Iq7sbk9fnbgzDvnkn7UTNN-9Zkon_Y_wbPKU1sW0UDCuwhOTzaWCIBbtu066Or7AomwsMhs3NXCPrGG-8_qD3rewkV4WciHH7o7-JJunKp_UHRrwc4TTz5hKYLDXb

Pressure grows to get buses serving major sources of employment, at times to suit employees shift patterns. 
JCP say they have potential candidates to get to Teesport. However potential candidates can't actually get to/from Teesport due to poor public transport.

Wasn't the port supposed to create 18,000 jobs over the next five years as a freeport? Bizarre that an employment site like that cannot work in partnership to secure a bus service around shift times.

Perhaps they'll wait for people to get cars instead, then complain about extra cars on the road causing congestion.

(06 Dec 2021, 11:46 am)Adrian wrote Wasn't the port supposed to create 18,000 jobs over the next five years as a freeport? Bizarre that an employment site like that cannot work in partnership to secure a bus service around shift times.

Perhaps they'll wait for people to get cars instead, then complain about extra cars on the road causing congestion.

History tells us Freeports have a negative effect. I don't see 5-10% of their estimation.. If the demand for the Tesco distribution centre wasn't enough for a bus, I can't see what would be..

(06 Dec 2021, 11:46 am)Adrian wrote Wasn't the port supposed to create 18,000 jobs over the next five years as a freeport? Bizarre that an employment site like that cannot work in partnership to secure a bus service around shift times.

Perhaps they'll wait for people to get cars instead, then complain about extra cars on the road causing congestion.

Someone needs to get the ball rolling and quickly. Particularly with this whole freeport thing and the supposed boost to the already high levels of employment there. 

It seems crazy we have operators saying theyre struggling and passenger numbers aren't reaching pre-pandemic levels and on the other hand, huge employers like Teesport don't have any public transport provision, never mind provision at times to suit shift-patterns. 
Kudos to GNE and Amazon in this case. I just hope it was the start of a total change in thinking by operators and not an exception to the rules.

(06 Dec 2021, 11:51 am)54APhotography wrote History tells us Freeports have a negative effect. I don't see 5-10% of their estimation.. If the demand for the Tesco distribution centre wasn't enough for a bus, I can't see what would be..

Freeports aside, I wonder if its lack of demand or lack of initiative from councils and transport operators?

Amazon at Follingsby has a bus every 7-8 minutes at shift times to Heworth, yet Amazon at Bowburn (which was quoted as also having 1,000 permanent jobs in the press release) has nothing but fresh air serving it. I don't believe the make up of employees will be much different between the two sites, so it seems to be that one operator has had the initiative, but the operator serving the other hasn't. 

Darlington have a bus, but I understand that is funded by time-limited section 106 money from planning. In Bowburn's case, the s106 money went towards education provision iirc. I think the Follingsby operation is fully commercial too.

(06 Dec 2021, 11:55 am)Andreos1 wrote Someone needs to get the ball rolling and quickly. Particularly with this whole freeport thing and the supposed boost to the already high levels of employment there. 

It seems crazy we have operators saying theyre struggling and passenger numbers aren't reaching pre-pandemic levels and on the other hand, huge employers like Teesport don't have any public transport provision, never mind provision at times to suit shift-patterns. 
Kudos to GNE and Amazon in this case. I just hope it was the start of a total change in thinking by operators and not an exception to the rules.

Yep, GNE and Amazon Follingsby is a superb example of how partnership should work in my opinion, but like you say, hopefully this becomes the norm and not the exception.

(06 Dec 2021, 12:22 pm)Adrian wrote Freeports aside, I wonder if its lack of demand or lack of initiative from councils and transport operators?

Amazon at Follingsby has a bus every 7-8 minutes at shift times to Heworth, yet Amazon at Bowburn (which was quoted as also having 1,000 permanent jobs in the press release) has nothing but fresh air serving it. I don't believe the make up of employees will be much different between the two sites, so it seems to be that one operator has had the initiative, but the operator serving the other hasn't. 

Darlington have a bus, but I understand that is funded by time-limited section 106 money from planning. In Bowburn's case, the s106 money went towards education provision iirc. I think the Follingsby operation is fully commercial too.


Yep, GNE and Amazon Follingsby is a superb example of how partnership should work in my opinion, but like you say, hopefully this becomes the norm and not the exception.

Absolutely, I think the lack of services to Bowburn are a direct result of Durham Council bias and blunder. Services 56-59 and X12 pass nearby and a diversion would not be a problem at all. It's not as if the jobs are high paying, so public transport would be a massive bonus and be gratefully patronised.

(06 Dec 2021, 12:31 pm)54APhotography wrote Absolutely, I think the lack of services to Bowburn are a direct result of Durham Council bias and blunder. Services 56-59 and X12 pass nearby and a diversion would not be a problem at all. It's not as if the jobs are high paying, so public transport would be a massive bonus and be gratefully patronised.

A lot of the Integra 61 development and planning pre-dates when I moved to and started to get involved in the area, but I know that there were active conversations between the County Councillors (at the time) and an operator, but that the operator preferred to stick with a 'watching brief' rather than commit to serving the site. 

There have been a number of actions taken on the A688 and the Jn 61 roundabout above the A1 to benefit such a move, but sadly a lack of commercial initiative to take it that one step further.

(06 Dec 2021, 12:22 pm)Adrian wrote Freeports aside, I wonder if its lack of demand or lack of initiative from councils and transport operators?

Amazon at Follingsby has a bus every 7-8 minutes at shift times to Heworth, yet Amazon at Bowburn (which was quoted as also having 1,000 permanent jobs in the press release) has nothing but fresh air serving it. I don't believe the make up of employees will be much different between the two sites, so it seems to be that one operator has had the initiative, but the operator serving the other hasn't. 

Darlington have a bus, but I understand that is funded by time-limited section 106 money from planning. In Bowburn's case, the s106 money went towards education provision iirc. I think the Follingsby operation is fully commercial too.


Yep, GNE and Amazon Follingsby is a superb example of how partnership should work in my opinion, but like you say, hopefully this becomes the norm and not the exception.

The pick/up drop off point at Bowburn is absolutely packed at shift change, to the point where it can take a good 15-20 minutes to actually get to it. I wonder how many of those people would use the bus if they could?

They've also just extended the car park, presumably because people have no choice but to drive!

When my brother started there last year, there was a bus service provided by Amazon. It was tight, but he could make it there on time. Now it's impossible for him.
My mother actually bought a second, smaller car just to take him to work because the other car is a big heavy 4x4 and it was costing a fortune.

Didn't GNE have a meeting at BowBurn?

Would opening up a exit to allow Bensham traffic onto pipewellgate be logistically feasable? Would changing the Junction on the Quayside onto the Swing Bridge to make it accessable from both sides also help? 

I was thinking about diverting some Newcastle bound services away from Gateshead Metro and advertising Metrocentre Connections at Eldon Square or Central Station but I'm not sure this would fully work.

(06 Dec 2021, 4:09 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The pick/up drop off point at Bowburn is absolutely packed at shift change, to the point where it can take a good 15-20 minutes to actually get to it. I wonder how many of those people would use the bus if they could?

They've also just extended the car park, presumably because people have no choice but to drive!

When my brother started there last year, there was a bus service provided by Amazon. It was tight, but he could make it there on time. Now it's impossible for him.
My mother actually bought a second, smaller car just to take him to work because the other car is a big heavy 4x4 and it was costing a fortune.

The other week I was searching for some info about a bus to Amazon's Darlington site from Middlesbrough after seeing a pic on Facebook and whilst searching I stumbled upon a Facebook group dedicated to car sharing to reach some of the sites in the North East, various people asking if anyone else would be able to pick them up who are also working at Amazon sites like Bowburn who don't have alternative travel options, many offering money towards fuel for the lift some offering as much as £20 which is more than some of the local weekly ticket options avaliable on buses in the areas of the sites. Most of the shift times were pretty similar too so could even just divert a few trips a day and extra journeys for the night shifts.

It would require extra resources for Arriva to divert the 56/57/57A and X12 although the latter wouldn't need extra buses due to long layover in Middlesbrough Bus Station following the diversion of the route into Teesside Park a while back.

Other Amazon sites have special buses like the one that ran from Durham by Weardale last year which can be booked on the Zeelo app

(07 Dec 2021, 3:54 pm)Jimmi wrote The other week I was searching for some info about a bus to Amazon's Darlington site from Middlesbrough after seeing a pic on Facebook and whilst searching I stumbled upon a Facebook group dedicated to car sharing to reach some of the sites in the North East, various people asking if anyone else would be able to pick them up who are also working at Amazon sites like Bowburn who don't have alternative travel options, many offering money towards fuel for the lift some offering as much as £20 which is more than some of the local weekly ticket options avaliable on buses in the areas of the sites. Most of the shift times were pretty similar too so could even just divert a few trips a day and extra journeys for the night shifts.

It would require extra resources for Arriva to divert the 56/57/57A and X12 although the latter wouldn't need extra buses due to long layover in Middlesbrough Bus Station following the diversion of the route into Teesside Park a while back.

Other Amazon sites have special buses like the one that ran from Durham by Weardale last year which can be booked on the Zeelo app

I wonder if there would be enough money in it for one of the independents to commercially run a route to Bowburn

I thought this was the best place to put these links as they tie in with multiple other hot topics.

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A...%2F3fWXUhO&h=AT3i6mkoQOdOy30vSOZ_MZShJKOrNqp6Oyex4z-ZhkF1lsHODp5jXif53TfOP9YzAGnRQe6b6K6c2qqkNCU0aDWqt3JsA3ZotWAXMbrHpztRQ_pq3vr6dtKbGMz1OSymWZnyBeefId4xNXKa

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60140862

On one hand, you have private bus operators saying there needs to be more funding and the metro is vital to their success.
And on the other, you have private tocs being proactive and using unique initiatives to get passengers back on board.

(07 Dec 2021, 4:26 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I wonder if there would be enough money in it for one of the independents to commercially run a route to Bowburn

If there is enough "money in it" I would expect one of them to be doing it already!

(27 Jan 2022, 9:50 am)busmanT wrote If there is enough "money in it" I would expect one of them to be doing it already!

Gerraway man.

Starting to wonder if some of these operators can see beyond the end of their nose. 

Unless it fits in with an existing route and doesn't add a major cost to existing budgets/expenditure, that money bag stays well out of reach.

They all love the free money, but don't seem keen on coming up with many creative ideas to earn that money.

https://www.cpt-uk.org/news/new-research...-services/

That's right. Operators who want to remain independent and don't want local authority control, have passengers who want councils to spend money and improve bus services. They've got the research to prove it!

I think higher frequency services need to return, 

4, 20, 60, 56. I think the services which have been reduced need to come back up. I have heard people when I have been on the 4 & 20 & 60 why can't it be every 10 & 12 mins the buses get busy. 

56, seen numerous complaints of it being rammed. Especially with the amount of single deckers on it

There isn’t the demand, they can’t run the services they run now without adding further demand to the network, the current frequency probably breaks even at best

(26 Mar 2022, 6:15 pm)Ambassador wrote There isn’t the demand, they can’t run the services they run now without adding further demand to the network, the current frequency probably breaks even at best

Tbh I wouldn't say that for the 4/20, the 60 & 56 maybe only in peak time. But the 4 & 20 are rammed constantly

(26 Mar 2022, 6:49 pm)Unber43 wrote Tbh I wouldn't say that for the 4/20, the 60 & 56 maybe only in peak time. But the 4 & 20 are rammed constantly

Always see X46/X46 rammed. X1, X21, 21, 97's are quite busy as well. The 10s are busy. This past week or two the amount of people I've seen on buses is high. I even see the 55 busy.

(26 Mar 2022, 7:21 pm)nova347 wrote Always see X46/X46 rammed. X1, X21, 21, 97's are quite busy as well. The 10s are busy. This past week or two the amount of people I've seen on buses is high. I even see the 55 busy.

X45/X46 went to every 20 mins wrong move imo. 

X21 fine, 21 should go to Durham every 20 mins, X1 are being taken to every 12ms, the 55 contraire to many peoples belief the 55 and 35 do get quite buses, quite a lot of the day. 

The 55 is sometimes busier than the X20.(leaving sunderland)