(21 May 2022, 1:27 pm)Unber43 wrote The only worthy route I can think of the Tyne Valley Ten there just wouldn't be enough.

I would say the 65 numbers are much higher than the old 265. 65 is always busy when i see it. 

I mean cancelling 28/25/62/62A/28A/X70/1 X31/4 going to every 15. Strangly enough GNE might have a few drivers free.

Well the 58 Follingsby extension might do it some good. 

Yes, but it still wasn't a brand new route plucked out of thin air. 

That was my point...you said GNE would need work for their drivers, well they don't have enough drivers for their work so I can't see why they'd introduce new routes for drivers to work on like you suggested.

And the mention of the 24 for 5x of the 6x StreetDecks? Wouldn't the split of the 20 be to allow service 50 to run standalone using 6301-07 rather than a mix of singles & doubles? And then services 24/26 interworking?

(21 May 2022, 1:34 pm)L469 YVK wrote And the mention of the 24 for 5x of the 6x StreetDecks? Wouldn't the split of the 20 be to allow service 50 to run standalone using 6301-07 rather than a mix of singles & doubles? And then services 24/26 interworking?

Maybe, but also maybe not, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

(21 May 2022, 1:24 pm)peter wrote How much more high spec are 20 plate Streetdecks compared to 17 plate B5's? Not sure it's worth the repainting of all those buses. And in any case you're still left with the same issue of not enough for the PVR. The 47/47A previously used those same Streetdecks and if they're covering part of the X46 route I'd hardly say they're that much less deserving. 

It was by coincidence and the interworking patterns that the 47 became the X47. Ironically, it was mostly ran using E400MMCs interworking with the X70/X71 until September 2021.

Yes, having 2x older StreetDecks (as long as 6377 was thrown in) would be a bit meehh but they're brand new and far too high spec for the 47.

In fact, the older 'oddball' on the X21 could be reduced to only 1x with the following:

X1
- 6363-76
- 6332-33 as Euro 6 decker spares for Washington (note that some 50 boards could be allocated Euro 5 single deckers instead if needed I think ??)

X21
- 6331, 6356-62, 6377
- 6314, 6334, 6335 as Euro 6 decker spares for CLS

Then for the 47, 6308-13.

(21 May 2022, 7:47 am)DeltaMan wrote I think if people knew how few people most bigger operators employ for back office functions they'd be surprised to be honest.

Yeah agreed, I think some seem to think there's a team of 30 people just sitting around (in terms of passengers on buses) doing pretty much nothing.

(21 May 2022, 1:43 pm)L469 YVK wrote It was by coincidence and the interworking patterns that the 47 became the X47. Ironically, it was mostly ran using E400MMCs interworking with the X70/X71 until September 2021.

Yes, having 2x older StreetDecks (as long as 6377 was thrown in) would be a bit meehh but they're brand new and far too high spec for the 47.

In fact, the older 'oddball' on the X21 could be reduced to only 1x with the following:

X1
- 6363-76
- 6332-33 as Euro 6 decker spares for Washington (note that some 50 boards could be allocated Euro 5 single deckers instead if needed I think ??)

X21
- 6331, 6356-62, 6377
- 6314, 6334, 6335 as Euro 6 decker spares for CLS

Then for the 47, 6308-13.

Why is the suggestion to allocate StreetDeck's to the X21?! They've already allocated some to the service and they were removed because they were supposedly deemed unsuitable to the route. B5's are probs best left on the X21 certainly for now at least. Also what would be the sense be in allocating the non standard B5s at two different depots?!

I don't think X21/47/X5/X15 will be touched after these changes with new buses or full PVR replacements

(21 May 2022, 3:05 pm)Jimmi wrote Why is the suggestion to allocate StreetDeck's to the X21?! They've already allocated some to the service and they were removed because they were supposedly deemed unsuitable to the route. B5's are probs best left on the X21 certainly for now at least. Also what would be the sense be in allocating the non standard B5s at two different depots?!

They were G1's (6301-07). The G2's (6315-33) and G3's (6356-76) have been fairly reliable.

(21 May 2022, 3:05 pm)Jimmi wrote Why is the suggestion to allocate StreetDeck's to the X21?! They've already allocated some to the service and they were removed because they were supposedly deemed unsuitable to the route. B5's are probs best left on the X21 certainly for now at least. Also what would be the sense be in allocating the non standard B5s at two different depots?!

Depends who you ask though.
MG said during one of the Facebook lives that the StreetDecks were fine on the X21 and they were only removed due to 'operational reasons', presumably needing somewhere to dump the B5s.
However, Dan has said they were removed due to their unreliability, although I'm pretty sure he doesn't comment on here in an 'official' capacity.

I do think, having used them extensively, the B5s are a better fit to the X21 than the StreetDecks were, although I don't think any of the new 4 cylinders have ventured down these parts, only the 6 cylinder, which seemed to cope pretty well.

(21 May 2022, 3:10 pm)Unber43 wrote I don't think X21/47/X5/X15 will be touched after these changes with new buses or full PVR replacements

But what are they going to do with 7+ StreetDecks? The 47 isn't a strong enough route for these and they exactly match the 'X-Lines' spec.

You wouldn't think GNE would withdraw 10 year old B5LH's but they are a very difficult and complicated vehicle type to support. Obviously it would only be 6x getting withdrawn leaving 9x, but would still go some way.

Lets not forget that Riverside are going to need an extra B9TL for the 58 extension as well as an extra spare. These can only come from 6043-48. Riverside's (incl Hexham's) total Euro 6 decker PVR is 44. With 1x spare needing to be allocated to the 10/10A/10B, this would leave 3x B9TL and 2x E400MMC meaning a spare ratio of 8.8:1 .

(21 May 2022, 3:23 pm)L469 YVK wrote But what are they going to do with 7+ StreetDecks? The 47 isn't a strong enough route for these and they exactly match the 'X-Lines' spec.

You wouldn't think GNE would withdraw 10 year old B5LH's but they are a very difficult and complicated vehicle type to support. Obviously it would only be 6x getting withdrawn leaving 9x, but would still go some way.

Lets not forget that Riverside are going to need an extra B9TL for the 58 extension as well as an extra spare. These can only come from 6043-48. Riverside's (incl Hexham's) total Euro 6 decker PVR is 44. With 1x spare needing to be allocated to the 10/10A/10B, this would leave 3x B9TL and 2x E400MMC meaning a spare ratio of 8.8:1 .

X5/X15 aren't either. 

X21 from what I have seen don't get that busy (It would be nice to hear StreetDeck Fan on how busy the X21 gets)

(21 May 2022, 3:14 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Depends who you ask though.
MG said during one of the Facebook lives that the StreetDecks were fine on the X21 and they were only removed due to 'operational reasons', presumably needing somewhere to dump the B5s.
However, Dan has said they were removed due to their unreliability, although I'm pretty sure he doesn't comment on here in an 'official' capacity.

I do think, having used them extensively, the B5s are a better fit to the X21 than the StreetDecks were, although I don't think any of the new 4 cylinders have ventured down these parts, only the 6 cylinder, which seemed to cope pretty well.

They were removed to the following:
- 6301-03 - Various
- 6304-07 - X5/X15
- 6331-33 - X45/X46

Also bearing in mind some of the original batch of 30x (OM934) were going to be for the X21 too with the 15 minute frequency increase pre-covid. But 9x got diverted to Oxford. In return, coaches were available for the X9/X10 so in turn, the B5TL's got allocated on to the X21.

(21 May 2022, 3:27 pm)L469 YVK wrote They were removed to the following:
- 6301-03 - Various
- 6304-07 - X5/X15
- 6331-33 - X45/X46

Also bearing in mind some of the original batch of 30x (OM934) were going to be for the X21 too with the 15 minute frequency increase pre-covid. But 9x got diverted to Oxford. In return, coaches were available for the X9/X10 so in turn, the B5TL's got allocated on to the X21.

GNE should demand those 9x Back for the 10/10A/10B.

58 doesn't need deckers really, they only have them cos they don't have enough Euro 6 Single Deckers and they needed the single deckers for the QuayCity and 6/57 etc.

(21 May 2022, 3:29 pm)Unber43 wrote GNE should demand those 9x Back for the 10/10A/10B.

58 doesn't need deckers really, they only have them cos they don't have enough Euro 6 Single Deckers and they needed the single deckers for the QuayCity and 6/57 etc.

Why would GAG give them back to GNE?

(21 May 2022, 3:34 pm)L469 YVK wrote Why would GAG give them back to GNE?

Because they gave GNE dodgey coaches

(21 May 2022, 3:27 pm)Unber43 wrote X21 from what I have seen don't get that busy (It would be nice to hear StreetDeck Fan on how busy the X21 gets)

It really depends on the time, during the day it seems to get a fair load, but it seems to be more local journeys than people like me that use the full route (ie. West Auckland to Bishop/Spennymoor, Bishop/Spennymoor to Durham etc. It seems to be reasonably on par with the Arriva 6 these days in terms of passenger numbers, at least in my experience. The northern section is usually the busiest, with it filling up at Newcastle and emptying at Durham, and vice versa.

(21 May 2022, 3:35 pm)Unber43 wrote Because they gave GNE dodgey coaches

Realistically, it was probably a good trade in the end given how things have turned out.
Since the coaches were only leased, they were able to just give them back at the end of the lease with no penalty. If they kept the StreetDecks, they would have been stuck with another 9 buses worth £2.5 million, and no passengers to pay for them

(21 May 2022, 3:50 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It really depends on the time, during the day it seems to get a fair load, but it seems to be more local journeys than people like me that use the full route (ie. West Auckland to Bishop/Spennymoor, Bishop/Spennymoor to Durham etc. It seems to be reasonably on par with the Arriva 6 these days in terms of passenger numbers, at least in my experience. The northern section is usually the busiest, with it filling up at Newcastle and emptying at Durham, and vice versa.


Realistically, it was probably a good trade in the end given how things have turned out.
Since the coaches were only leased, they were able to just give them back at the end of the lease with no penalty. If they kept the StreetDecks, they would have been stuck with another 9 buses worth £2.5 million, and no passengers to pay for them

tbh they could have went on the 10/A/B. Probs would have gotton passenger numbers on them. And the other ones just as Spare.

(21 May 2022, 3:58 pm)Unber43 wrote tbh they could have went on the 10/A/B. Probs would have gotton passenger numbers on them. And the other ones just as Spare.

Not at the time. The original 48x decker order was

2018/19 (IIRC?):
- 3x ADL E400MMC - X30
- 13x OM934 StreetDeck - X31/X45/X46
- 9x OM934 StreetDeck - X47/X70/X71
- 4x OM934 StreetDeck - X5/X15
- 4x OM934 StreetDeck - X21

2019/20:
- 14x ADL E400MMC - X1
- 1x ADL E400MMC - X30

(21 May 2022, 4:47 pm)L469 YVK wrote Not at the time. The original 48x decker order was

2018/19 (IIRC?):
- 3x ADL E400MMC - X30
- 13x OM934 StreetDeck - X31/X45/X46
- 9x OM934 StreetDeck - X47/X70/X71
- 4x OM934 StreetDeck - X5/X15
- 4x OM934 StreetDeck - X21

2019/20:
- 14x ADL E400MMC - X1
- 1x ADL E400MMC - X30

That 14 PVR for the X1 wouldn't be enough now. 

What else would have complimented the X21, seems as though the current X9/10's at the time wouldn't have got new buses.

(21 May 2022, 5:19 pm)Unber43 wrote That 14 PVR for the X1 wouldn't be enough now. 

What else would have complimented the X21, seems as though the current X9/10's at the time wouldn't have got new buses.

That was the correct PVR at the time with the 921 thrown in too.

Initial future thoughts at the time for the X9/X10 was either OM936 StreetDecks or Scania N250UD E400MMCs, with the B5TLs then ending up on the X84/X85. Volvo B8TL E400XLBs were categorically ruled out for the X9/X10 due to their size and limited use after life on the X9/X10

(21 May 2022, 5:50 pm)L469 YVK wrote That was the correct PVR at the time with the 921 thrown in too.

Initial future thoughts at the time for the X9/X10 was either OM936 StreetDecks or Scania N250UD E400MMCs, with the B5TLs then ending up on the X84/X85. Volvo B8TL E400XLBs were categorically ruled out for the X9/X10 due to their size and limited use after life on the X9/X10

B5TL, hopefully they would have had 5 to provide a proper service. They should have done that originally with 6337 to give it a chance. 

Wonder where those two spares would have went. 

I forgot about 921 and 923.

(21 May 2022, 3:27 pm)Unber43 wrote X5/X15 aren't either. 

X21 from what I have seen don't get that busy (It would be nice to hear StreetDeck Fan on how busy the X21 gets)

There seems to be reliability issues with the B5's on the X21 so I thought with the changes Consett  will be left with the E400's only and the Streetdecks go onto the X21 plus the extra bus for the X1. The B5's could end up replacing the mercs on X20 PVR 6 plus 1 spare something a little less demanding for them.

(22 May 2022, 3:28 pm)ian foster wrote There seems to be reliability issues with the B5's on the X21 so I thought with the changes Consett  will be left with the E400's only and the Streetdecks go onto the X21 plus the extra bus for the X1. The B5's could end up replacing the mercs on X20 PVR 6 plus 1 spare something a little less demanding for them.

I doubt the X20 needs deckers considering they only recently made the switch to full size single decks.

It looks like the Consett 'XLines' network will all be E400MMC operated. If 6332/33 could fill the spares at Washington with 6363 going across as intended from January's changes, 6356-62 with 6377 and 6333 would form the PVR of the X21. 6314, 6334 and 6335 could remain at CLS as spares.

Volvo B5TLs 6308-13 however could make a decent upgrade for the 47 and allow B9TLs to go on to the X5/X15, withdrawing 6x of the 15x B5LH's (or moving them to non Euro 6 backseat roles) as well as providing 2x extra B9TLs for Riverside.

(22 May 2022, 7:42 pm)L469 YVK wrote I doubt the X20 needs deckers considering they only recently made the switch to full size single decks.

It looks like the Consett 'XLines' network will all be E400MMC operated. If 6332/33 could fill the spares at Washington with 6363 going across as intended from January's changes, 6356-62 with 6377 and 6333 would form the PVR of the X21. 6314, 6334 and 6335 could remain at CLS as spares.

Volvo B5TLs 6308-13 however could make a decent upgrade for the 47 and allow B9TLs to go on to the X5/X15, withdrawing 6x of the 15x B5LH's (or moving them to non Euro 6 backseat roles) as well as providing 2x extra B9TLs for Riverside.

I doubt you will see any B5LHs withdrawn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(21 May 2022, 1:07 pm)peter wrote There's no chance any of those B5's are gonna get withdrawn at 10 years old, they're nowhere near the age of being 'uneconomical to repair.' 

Hasn't it already been established that the reliability of the B5's on the X21 isn't as bad as has been made out...6332/33 being allocated to Chester-le-Street so there are decent spares would be sufficient I'm sure. 

I think it could go either way at Consett. I think 6362/3 will go to Washington for the X1 like you say. As for 6356-6361, the paint is still fresh on those 47/47A B9's, doesn't mean it won't happen tho. Part of me does wonder if the new 24 could be a contender with a PVR of 5. Alternatively if 6356-61 stay for the X45, some of the MMC's could be released to Riverside for something like the 58.


I can't see GNE taking the commercial risk of a new route when they can hardly run the routes they do have! 

I often wonder if that's led to the situation we see now.
It's easy to blame covid, changing travel patterns, drivers being enticed elsewhere (whether that be new jobs or football matches) and whatever else - but the lockdowns were the ideal opportunity to revise and revisit everything.

There's been many opportunities in the past and they've seemingly been ignored in favour of doing what they do best.

Not sure what this really has to do with downgrading a route mind but surely

08:00 - X71
09:15 - X72
10:30 - X72
11:45 - X71
PVR 5

08:00 - X30
08:45 - X30
09:30 - X31
10:15 - X31
...
PVR 3

X45 Standalone
08:00 CON
09:15 NEW
10:30 CON
11:45 NEW
13:00 CON
PVR 5

Would be the better allocations...

6356 - 6360 - X45
6362 - 6375 - X1
6301 - 6307, 6361, 6376, 6377 - 50 / X1 Spares
6331 - 6333 - 21 / X21 Spares
6344 - 6352 - X30/X31/X70/X71
6338 - 6343, 6065 - 6068 - X5/X15/Spares

It makes much sense than moving B9's and B5's around for absolutely no reason painting everything again.

(23 May 2022, 12:58 pm)Storx wrote Not sure what this really has to do with downgrading a route mind but surely

08:00 - X71
09:15 - X72
10:30 - X72
11:45 - X71
PVR 5

08:00 - X30
08:45 - X30
09:30 - X31
10:15 - X31
...
PVR 3

X45 Standalone
08:00 CON
09:15 NEW
10:30 CON
11:45 NEW
13:00 CON
PVR 5

Would be the better allocations...

6356 - 6360 - X45
6362 - 6375 - X1
6301 - 6307, 6361, 6376, 6377 - 50 / X1 Spares
6331 - 6333 - 21 / X21 Spares
6344 - 6352 - X30/X31/X70/X71
6338 - 6343, 6065 - 6068 - X5/X15/Spares

It makes much sense than moving B9's and B5's around for absolutely no reason painting everything again.

Yeah I think it could go either way tbh, either they'll free up all the Streetdecks to be used somewhere else or they'll free up some of the MMC's. But I do think 6 MMC's designated as spare is too many. If fleet standardisation is still something GNE are bothered about it'll be the Streetdecks leaving Consett but I can't see the obsessive X21 swap happening.

Speaking of the X21, a quick check of BusTimes shows that over the past week, on a daily basis there has only been 1 Omnidekka or B7 a day covering (except last Tuesday there were 2 but there were none on Wednesday). I definitely think the only change we'll be seeing there is 6332/33 moving to Chester as spares.

(23 May 2022, 1:52 pm)peter wrote Yeah I think it could go either way tbh, either they'll free up all the Streetdecks to be used somewhere else or they'll free up some of the MMC's. But I do think 6 MMC's designated as spare is too many. If fleet standardisation is still something GNE are bothered about it'll be the Streetdecks leaving Consett but I can't see the obsessive X21 swap happening.

Speaking of the X21, a quick check of BusTimes shows that over the past week, on a daily basis there has only been 1 Omnidekka or B7 a day covering (except last Tuesday there were 2 but there were none on Wednesday). I definitely think the only change we'll be seeing there is 6332/33 moving to Chester as spares.

See I was thinking that but realistically nowhere really needs any Streetdecks either tbh without creating a micro fleet at Riverside, Deptford or Percy Main but they don't really need them either unless it's pointless upgrades like the 24.

The Enviro's to Riverside could be an option but I'm not sure what routes really need them there either.

It depends where the new electrics are going though as it's arguably now going to be either the 58 or Q3. Can't see them going on the 57 anymore when it doesn't run on an evening, that seems a waste which will free up even more Deckers or Versa's.

There's going to be a lot of buses swapping around whatever happens.

(23 May 2022, 1:52 pm)peter wrote Yeah I think it could go either way tbh, either they'll free up all the Streetdecks to be used somewhere else or they'll free up some of the MMC's. But I do think 6 MMC's designated as spare is too many. If fleet standardisation is still something GNE are bothered about it'll be the Streetdecks leaving Consett but I can't see the obsessive X21 swap happening.

Speaking of the X21, a quick check of BusTimes shows that over the past week, on a daily basis there has only been 1 Omnidekka or B7 a day covering (except last Tuesday there were 2 but there were none on Wednesday). I definitely think the only change we'll be seeing there is 6332/33 moving to Chester as spares.

That's unpossible, the B5s are horrendously unreliable and must be removed from the X21 immediately! /s

(23 May 2022, 12:58 pm)Storx wrote Not sure what this really has to do with downgrading a route mind but surely

08:00 - X71
09:15 - X72
10:30 - X72
11:45 - X71
PVR 5

08:00 - X30
08:45 - X30
09:30 - X31
10:15 - X31
...
PVR 3

X45 Standalone
08:00 CON
09:15 NEW
10:30 CON
11:45 NEW
13:00 CON
PVR 5

Would be the better allocations...

6356 - 6360 - X45
6362 - 6375 - X1
6301 - 6307, 6361, 6376, 6377 - 50 / X1 Spares
6331 - 6333 - 21 / X21 Spares
6344 - 6352 - X30/X31/X70/X71
6338 - 6343, 6065 - 6068 - X5/X15/Spares

It makes much sense than moving B9's and B5's around for absolutely no reason painting everything again.

Only issue with the X45 going standalone is that you'd be stretching the driving & duty hours. It's okayish an Arriva Blyth depot driver doing a 5 hour stint on the 308 as they effectively walk out and are back at base or a short walk to the depot.

Plus, would it not be simpler keeping all the Consett 'XLines' routes the same type? If the E400MMCs do all of them and StreetDecks end up on the 21, it would simplify the decker manufacturers across both Consett & CLS too.

Consett - ADL & Volvo
CLS - WrightBus (Integral) & Volvo (x3 B5TLs spare)

So you'd have something like this

E400MMC
- 6338-40 - X31
- 6341-49 - X45/X71/X72 (All bike friendly)
- 6350-51 - Spare

StreetDeck
- 6331 - X21
- 6332-33 - Washington Spares
- 6356-62 - X21
- 6363-76 - X1
- 6377 - X21

B5TL
- 6308-13 - 47
- 6314 - CLS Spare
- 6334-35 - CLS Spare

B5LH
- 6056-63 - 16/16A
- 6064 - Consett Spare
- 6065-70 - Re-deployed to backseat role

B9TL
- 6043-44 - Riverside (1x spare and 1x extra for 58)
- 6045-48 - X5/X15