Would buses become more attractive to passengers, particularly car drivers, if the infrastructure was more tram-like? 

I'm thinking of a situation where the bus follows a main A-road directly into a town or city centre. 

Would it be better if existing stops were removed and new 'enhanced' stops were installed but at longer distances apart?

To my mind better, more substantial bus infrastructure and a quicker journey would certainly help make the bus a more attractive option. Although I can see that people with mobility issues may be disadvantaged as they would need to walk a bit further to get to the 'enhanced' stop. 

I'm wondering if the buses and fares along the route were kept exactly the same, if this infrastructure enhancement alone could encourage people to use the bus who would normally just drive both initially due to the investment and over the long term?

(22 May 2022, 5:04 pm)balise33 wrote Would buses become more attractive to passengers, particularly car drivers, if the infrastructure was more tram-like? 

I'm thinking of a situation where the bus follows a main A-road directly into a town or city centre. 

Would it be better if existing stops were removed and new 'enhanced' stops were installed but at longer distances apart?

To my mind better, more substantial bus infrastructure and a quicker journey would certainly help make the bus a more attractive option. Although I can see that people with mobility issues may be disadvantaged as they would need to walk a bit further to get to the 'enhanced' stop. 

I'm wondering if the buses and fares along the route were kept exactly the same, if this infrastructure enhancement alone could encourage people to use the bus who would normally just drive both initially due to the investment and over the long term?

They need to do much more than maintain the status quo.
* Relying on branding and titivations isn't enough to attract passengers. I think that's clear now.
* Pricing can have a positive effect as long as buses take people where they need and want to be.
* Making the difference bigger between stops may make some difference. But again, if the buses aren't going to the places people need and want to be...

Prior to de-reg and for a few years following, a big chunk of the longer distance type of services (although not express), were limited stop and it undoubtedly had a positive impact on journey times.
As an example, the 723 from Darlington to Newcastle may have stopped twice in Birtley and again twice in Low Fell (I can't remember the actual number) before arriving at Gateshead. 
The local services (such as the 26), were all stops between the same points.

If the enhanced stops had enhanced services calling, local routes were all stops AND buses went where people wanted and needed to be, branding and titivations weren't the be all and end, all along with attractive pricing, then it may work.

There was a thread elsewhere about creating Moto hubs (essentially giant P&R sites alongside motorways) and although some mocked the idea, I did think there is some merit in doing something different.
It may work when various other factors are taken in to account.

(22 May 2022, 5:04 pm)balise33 wrote Would buses become more attractive to passengers, particularly car drivers, if the infrastructure was more tram-like? 

I'm thinking of a situation where the bus follows a main A-road directly into a town or city centre. 

Would it be better if existing stops were removed and new 'enhanced' stops were installed but at longer distances apart?

To my mind better, more substantial bus infrastructure and a quicker journey would certainly help make the bus a more attractive option. Although I can see that people with mobility issues may be disadvantaged as they would need to walk a bit further to get to the 'enhanced' stop. 

I'm wondering if the buses and fares along the route were kept exactly the same, if this infrastructure enhancement alone could encourage people to use the bus who would normally just drive both initially due to the investment and over the long term?

I may be missing something here, but isn't this just the world's most expensive limited stop/express service?

Buses are buses
Trams are trams

Mixing them together doesn't work hence all Guided Busways have failed pretty much.

Just build the tram line and stop fannying around avoiding building the tramline imo. The amount of money they blow on bus lanes, bus stops, more bus lanes, more bus stops you'd be on the way to the tram anyway.

(22 May 2022, 6:46 pm)Storx wrote Buses are buses
Trams are trams

Mixing them together doesn't work hence all Guided Busways have failed pretty much.

Just build the tram line and stop fannying around avoiding building the tramline imo. The amount of money they blow on bus lanes, bus stops, more bus lanes, more bus stops you'd be on the way to the tram anyway.

Where on earth would they put a tram line

(22 May 2022, 8:23 pm)Unber43 wrote Where on earth would they put a tram line

Underground. Then connect it to the Metro (which could be seen as an overgrown tram system - I believe street running was one of the possibilities explored when they started building it).

Probably.

(22 May 2022, 8:23 pm)Unber43 wrote Where on earth would they put a tram line

Street running, it's only 2 mile from the end of the dual carriageway near the Angel to High Street West.

Not really suggesting it but when you fanny around with Guided Busways and fancy bus stops etc might aswell go all the way.

The two guided busways up here failed miserably (Silverlink and Centrelink) and both are give or take abandoned now.

The whole Northern section of the Sheffield Supertram is on street, see https://goo.gl/maps/2MBuBPDfUPQANhgg7 for example of it in Hillsborough which is similar to Low Fell.

Human psychology is the problem

I'll use Battlehill as an example

GNE 41 and 41A

Since the last changes it has added 2 extra minutes to drive around Wiltshire Drive however physiological passengers think its longer and will opt against it if they can

Same as 309 is quicker vs 310 and 311 as they add an extra 3-4 minutes around Mullen Road and Station Road

Express numbers should be made more effective

Eg X39 is the 309 but as an Express to Cobalt

Same as X21 is an Express to the 21 service to an extent

I would say increasing stops would be beneficial

I can't think of anything more offputting than having to walk even further to catch your bus or from your bus to home with heavy bags of shopping.

This is another batshit idea that only considers the start and end of the route. If the people in between are served even less well than they are already, then the rot will spread.

(22 May 2022, 6:46 pm)Storx wrote Buses are buses
Trams are trams

Mixing them together doesn't work hence all Guided Busways have failed pretty much.

Just build the tram line and stop fannying around avoiding building the tramline imo. The amount of money they blow on bus lanes, bus stops, more bus lanes, more bus stops you'd be on the way to the tram anyway.

Thing with trams, is that you can't really change the route. You're restricted as to which way they go and where they go to and from. They can't go in to estates, may miss out places of employment or retail etc.

Any big changes or extensions have huge capital investment whilst roads are ripped up and tracks laid.

With buses, you have a big advantage in being able to make a change, create a new route or have a variation at essentially a moments notice to suit changing demands or flows.

Bearing all that in mind, I wonder if the powers that be within certain operators actually realise they are playing with buses and not trams?

(23 May 2022, 8:19 am)Andreos1 wrote Thing with trams, is that you can't really change the route. You're restricted as to which way they go and where they go to and from. They can't go in to estates, may miss out places of employment or retail etc.

Any big changes or extensions have huge capital investment whilst roads are ripped up and tracks laid.

With buses, you have a big advantage in being able to make a change, create a new route or have a variation at essentially a moments notice to suit changing demands or flows.

Bearing all that in mind, I wonder if the powers that be within certain operators actually realise they are playing with buses and not trams?

I get what your saying about routing but generally the idea would be to not having the buses all running through in tandem towards Newcastle and the local hump services (let's call them that) connecting to a frequent tram instead so effectively half the route is removed.

https://i.ibb.co/QYwn2Hb/trams.png - If you had a network like that, as that's arguably the corridors which would be best served by trams, then you could make small connecting networks in Birtley (28/82), Wrekenton (23/24/25/51/52), Low Fell (28A/29/93/94), Chester Le Street (25/34/71), Blaydon (R1, R3, R4) to connect local communities further out to Newcastle / Gateshead with routes like the 10, 21 (reduced frequency) etc still running through.

Plus you get desirable P&T sites which are situated at the 3 corners where they really should be covering the A69, A1(M) and Derwentside / Tyne Valley

(The light pink isn't at the bottom left is also the Consett Line if they ever opened that, could be an option for it to be Tram / Train connecting at Birtley)

This would be a terrible idea. If anything, reducing the amount of bus stops would attract less passengers, not more.

Similar thing but not similar as I sat on a 21 yesterday....bus stops in awkward places that cause delays .

2 examples - both in Gateshead.

The stop at Civic Centre - if a passenger gets off there it inevitably causes the bus to miss the lights and end up waiting another 3-5 minutes before they change again plus holding up whatever bus is behind it.

Similarly to Askew Road and the infamous bus lane - if the bus stops there and misses that green light, its a hell of a wait for the signal change

(23 May 2022, 9:19 am)Storx wrote I get what your saying about routing but generally the idea would be to not having the buses all running through in tandem towards Newcastle and the local hump services (let's call them that) connecting to a frequent tram instead so effectively half the route is removed.

https://i.ibb.co/QYwn2Hb/trams.png - If you had a network like that, as that's arguably the corridors which would be best served by trams, then you could make small connecting networks in Birtley (28/82), Wrekenton (23/24/25/51/52), Low Fell (28A/29/93/94), Chester Le Street (25/34/71), Blaydon (R1, R3, R4) to connect local communities further out to Newcastle / Gateshead with routes like the 10, 21 (reduced frequency) etc still running through.

Plus you get desirable P&T sites which are situated at the 3 corners where they really should be covering the A69, A1(M) and Derwentside / Tyne Valley

(The light pink isn't at the bottom left is also the Consett Line if they ever opened that, could be an option for it to be Tram / Train connecting at Birtley)

It was all a build up to the punchline at the end. Thought it was quite clever to be honest.

But aye, something needs doing that gets punters back on buses.

Someone need to invent something that talks to traffic signals and when a bus approaches it turns from red to green giving buses priority

(23 May 2022, 10:24 am)Ambassador wrote Similar thing but not similar as I sat on a 21 yesterday....bus stops in awkward places that cause delays .

2 examples - both in Gateshead.

The stop at Civic Centre - if a passenger gets off there it inevitably causes the bus to miss the lights and end up waiting another 3-5 minutes before they change again plus holding up whatever bus is behind it.

Similarly to Askew Road and the infamous bus lane - if the bus stops there and misses that green light, its a hell of a wait for the signal change

I don't think I've ever been on a bus that's got through those lights anyway. I, and pretty much everybody else on the bus, uses those lights to go downstairs ready to get off at Gateshead

I get the impression that there's a sensor that changes it to red when it detects a bus rather than the other way round!

(23 May 2022, 10:41 am)Rob44 wrote Someone need to invent something that talks to traffic signals and when a bus approaches it turns from red to green giving buses priority

Sensors fitted into the road on the Killingworth Road bus lane in Newcastle do this.

(23 May 2022, 10:41 am)Rob44 wrote Someone need to invent something that talks to traffic signals and when a bus approaches it turns from red to green giving buses priority

All modern ticket machine equipment is fitted with that functionality as its essentially the same data that powers real time systems. However, local authorities need to make it happen at thier end.

(23 May 2022, 10:41 am)Rob44 wrote Someone need to invent something that talks to traffic signals and when a bus approaches it turns from red to green giving buses priority

Although there was some places that are over-served with bus stops seemingly every few metres, and I'd get rid of some of those, a better idea would be to go back to having some genuine express services.

I remember when the 'X' prefix actually meant that a stop was express, and served limited stops.

im sure arrive came up with making the 44 to Newcastle the x44 at one point. meaning the first stop after Gosforth park ( i think) was regent centre. The obviously didn't last long!

(28 May 2022, 10:20 am)Rob44 wrote im sure arrive came up with making the 44 to Newcastle the x44 at one point. meaning the first  stop after Gosforth park ( i think) was regent centre. The obviously didn't last long!

From memory, the X44 was a Friday/Saturday shopper service between Newbiggen and Blyth via the Spine Road in the early days of Arriva ownership.

The 44 did used to run limited stop down the Coast Road. 

Although I also recall a lot of tinkering being made to the 44/45 services almost every 6 months in the 2000s, so you maybe right!

(28 May 2022, 12:42 pm)DeltaMan wrote From memory, the X44 was a Friday/Saturday shopper service between Newbiggen and Blyth via the Spine Road in the early days of Arriva ownership.

The 44 did used to run limited stop down the Coast Road. 

Although I also recall a lot of tinkering being made to the 44/45 services almost every 6 months in the 2000s, so you maybe right!

http://www.travelnortheast.co.uk/downloa...l-dinn.pdf

Heres the timetable.  Like i say didn't last very long

(22 May 2022, 10:33 pm)BusLoverMum wrote I can't think of anything more offputting than having to walk even further to catch your bus or from your bus to home with heavy bags of shopping.

This is another batshit idea that only considers the start and end of the route. If the people in between are served even less well than they are already, then the rot will spread.

I totally agree with this. When we're supposedly trying to encourage modal shift towards buses, making it even less convenient to use them is not going to go in your favour at all. You generally don't have a 10-15 minute walk either side of parking your car, so why should you for a bus.

The problem imo is that too many routes try and do too much. We don't really have an express network outside of the Tyne/Tees X10, and even that now is becoming more and more a local bus service. Whereas ideally you'd have local services feeding into interurban express links.

If there's a genuine end-to-end travel pattern from say Newcastle to Sunderland for example, then a limited stop express service should be provided. If it's more a case of travel patterns looking like Newcastle to Washington, Gateshead to Wrekenton, Washington to Houghton, for example, then you end up with a pretend express service like the X1.

As part of improving the bus network in the Bronx, NY, they’ve been reducing the number of stops/increasing the space between them to speed up journey times:


The Teams St/Askew Road West corridor springs to mind.

(24 Jun 2022, 2:01 pm)ne14ne1 wrote As part of improving the bus network in the Bronx, NY, they’re been reducing the number of stops/increasing the space between them to speed up journey times:


The Teams St/Askew Road West corridor springs to mind.

Tbh one corridor I think that would work well would be along Durham Road have a slow service say the 21 stopping everywhere but create a limited stop service on top of it say until the Angel so people from Birtley and CLS (where the X21 doesn't stop) don't have to stop at every bus stop and it feels an absolute age. 

The 43/44/45/X10/X11 work well along Great North Road imo for Cramlington and beyond passengers which is pretty much that.

(24 Jun 2022, 5:23 pm)Storx wrote Tbh one corridor I think that would work well would be along Durham Road have a slow service say the 21 stopping everywhere but create a limited stop service on top of it say until the Angel so people from Birtley and CLS (where the X21 doesn't stop) don't have to stop at every bus stop and it feels an absolute age.  

The 43/44/45/X10/X11 work well along Great North Road imo for Cramlington and beyond passengers which is pretty much that.

Ironically, that's exactly what Durham Road had in the past.

(24 Jun 2022, 5:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote Ironically, that's exactly what Durham Road had in the past.

Wasn't Xlines mean to be just that - faster interurban links with fewer stops?

(26 Jun 2022, 6:10 pm)busmanT wrote Wasn't Xlines mean to be just that - faster interurban links with fewer stops?

If so, given the X21 is all stops south of Chester, the X1 is all stops south of Shiney Row, the X20 is only limited stop between Rainton and Belmont, and the X15, X15, X30, X31, X45, X46 X70, X71 and X72 are all stops for almost the entire journey (weren't the X5, X15, X45 and X46 just existing normal services renumbered to put an X in front?), then it's doing a TERRIBLE job of it.

I thought it was simply to bring all the express ("express") routes under a single, unified brand.

(26 Jun 2022, 9:53 pm)F114TML wrote If so, given the X21 is all stops south of Chester, the X1 is all stops south of Shiney Row, the X20 is only limited stop between Rainton and Belmont, and the X15, X15, X30, X31, X45, X46 X70, X71 and X72 are all stops for almost the entire journey (weren't the X5, X15, X45 and X46 just existing normal services renumbered to put an X in front?), then it's doing a TERRIBLE job of it.

I thought it was simply to bring all the express ("express") routes under a single, unified brand.

Yeah I think they were. 

X30/X31 are only it cos it faster than the 6. 

I don't know why X70/X71 especially the X72, which takes an extra 20 mins than X30/31