So when the cancellations is over I got this idea from what Martjin posted about hopefully turn the network profitable hopefully these changes make it happen. 

Could each depot, (Consett/Deptford/Riverside/Washington) have new routes which try for 1 year trial, for possible comerical ideas each new idea starts every 6 months or so, January/July/September changes is where it would take place to try and make a profitable new service.

And if they are losing a ridiculous amount of money they just get withdrawn after a couple of months, but for these to work, GNE need to drop leaflets around where they are thinking of a new route to see who would you it etc.

All boils down to what travel patterns & data shows up.

For example, if a load of people between Lanchester and Stanley were getting off the 6 and jumping on to the X30/X31 to Newcastle, it would show clearly there's demand for a quicker service that way.

Likewise, if passengers are getting off the 58 and connecting onto the 4 to Amazon, it shows demand there too for an extension of the 58.

(24 Jul 2022, 9:29 pm)L469 YVK wrote All boils down to what travel patterns & data shows up.

For example, if a load of people between Lanchester and Stanley were getting off the 6 and jumping on to the X30/X31 to Newcastle, it would show clearly there's demand for a quicker service that way.

Likewise, if passengers are getting off the 58 and connecting onto the 4 to Amazon, it shows demand there too for an extension of the 58.

GNE can hand out leaflets in areas they are thinking of adding services, and ask them

Where would you like to go

frequency etc

Unless they have their daily dose of inspiration and creativity, nothing is going to change in the way of new routes. 
It just isn't something they tend to do.

There's so much they can do (whether it be using the data the machines generate) or actually getting on the ground and talking to people (starting with car drivers) to find out.

I'm sure there was a NEbus survey at some point fairly recently.
No idea what was done with the data though.

(24 Jul 2022, 9:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote Unless they have their daily dose of inspiration and creativity, nothing is going to change in the way of new routes. 
It just isn't something they tend to do.

There's so much they can do (whether it be using the data the machines generate) or actually getting on the ground and talking to people (starting with car drivers) to find out.

I'm sure there was a NEbus survey at some point fairly recently.
No idea what was done with the data though.

Was the NEbus survey just online, who is actually looking at that, it is more like drop leaflets into doors.

(24 Jul 2022, 9:54 pm)Unber43 wrote Was the NEbus survey just online, who is actually looking at that, it is more like drop leaflets into doors.

An online survey has its obvious limitations, but can be cheaper than a physical leaflet drop.
I can't remember if there was a paper version of the NEbus survey unfortunately.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:00 pm)Andreos1 wrote An online survey has its obvious limitations, but can be cheaper than a physical leaflet drop.
I can't remember if there was a paper version of the NEbus survey unfortunately.

Maybe, if my idea were to work GNE would target an area e.g Doxford Park or Durham as a whole or Seaham or Boldon or Houghton

And do a leaflet drop, there are areas which would become successful with a bus service, GNE just need to know what they want, and I think GNE have to turn a profit before they start any new routes from different depots

(24 Jul 2022, 9:54 pm)Unber43 wrote Was the NEbus survey just online, who is actually looking at that, it is more like drop leaflets into doors.

I believe the NEBus survey was around barriers and wants in terms of cheaper fares, bus lanes etc...nothing about where services actually go.  I spotted this on Martijn's twitter a couple of weeks ago and it's stuck in my head.  Look at the most prominent words on the word cloud...convenience, cost, flexibility, time, access - all of which are adversely affected by the latest changes and fare hikes from GNE.  Looks like this was just at some conference type session, but suspect it is probably fairly representative ofpublic opinion more widely.  I don't see the point in asking about barriers - which are entirely predictable - then making them all worse...

https://twitter.com/MartijnGNE/status/15...49/photo/4

(24 Jul 2022, 10:08 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I believe the NEBus survey was around barriers and wants in terms of cheaper fares, bus lanes etc...nothing about where services actually go.  I spotted this on Martijn's twitter a couple of weeks ago and it's stuck in my head.  Look at the most prominent words on the word cloud...convenience, cost, flexibility, time, access - all of which are adversely affected by the latest changes and fare hikes from GNE.  Looks like this was just at some conference type session, but suspect it is probably fairly representative ofpublic opinion more widely.  I don't see the point in asking about barriers - which are entirely predictable - then making them all worse...

https://twitter.com/MartijnGNE/status/15...49/photo/4

i feel like antisocial behaviour, frequency throughout quite times are massive issues.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:08 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I believe the NEBus survey was around barriers and wants in terms of cheaper fares, bus lanes etc...nothing about where services actually go.  I spotted this on Martijn's twitter a couple of weeks ago and it's stuck in my head.  Look at the most prominent words on the word cloud...convenience, cost, flexibility, time, access - all of which are adversely affected by the latest changes and fare hikes from GNE.  Looks like this was just at some conference type session, but suspect it is probably fairly representative ofpublic opinion more widely.  I don't see the point in asking about barriers - which are entirely predictable - then making them all worse...

https://twitter.com/MartijnGNE/status/15...49/photo/4

There was definitely one recently which asked about commuting and where you travelled to and from.
I say recently - within the last 18 months.

---

(24 Jul 2022, 10:04 pm)Unber43 wrote Maybe, if my idea were to work GNE would target an area e.g Doxford Park or Durham as a whole or Seaham or Boldon or Houghton

And do a leaflet drop, there are areas which would become successful with a bus service, GNE just need to know what they want, and I think GNE have to turn a profit before they start any new routes from different depots

Or, go for it with a range of employers and carry out a similar sort of activity to the one at Amazon.
Cheaper and probably more reliable than a leaflet drop.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:15 pm)Andreos1 wrote There was definitely one recently which asked about commuting and where you travelled to and from.
I say recently - within the last 18 months.

---

Or, go for it with a range of employers and carry out a similar sort of activity to the one at Amazon.
Cheaper and probably more reliable than a leaflet drop.

YOu could also but signs up at Supermarkets. 

There are so many industrial parks which don't have good bus services. Doxford Park has awful connections.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:08 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote I believe the NEBus survey was around barriers and wants in terms of cheaper fares, bus lanes etc...nothing about where services actually go.  I spotted this on Martijn's twitter a couple of weeks ago and it's stuck in my head.  Look at the most prominent words on the word cloud...convenience, cost, flexibility, time, access - all of which are adversely affected by the latest changes and fare hikes from GNE.  Looks like this was just at some conference type session, but suspect it is probably fairly representative ofpublic opinion more widely.  I don't see the point in asking about barriers - which are entirely predictable - then making them all worse...

https://twitter.com/MartijnGNE/status/15...49/photo/4

Must admit I'm surprised at how high the train number is on there considering how crap the service is up here. Not sure whether that's saying there's a lot of people using the train or no-one using buses.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:22 pm)Unber43 wrote YOu could also but signs up at Supermarkets. 

There are so many industrial parks which don't have good bus services. Doxford Park has awful connections.

This is true. It's out of area but Belasis Park in Billingham has nothing within a 15 minute walk. The closest is the Stagecoach 36.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:26 pm)Storx wrote Must admit I'm surprised at how high the train number is on there considering how crap the service is up here. Not sure whether that's saying there's a lot of people using the train or no-one using buses.

Tbh, recently I (or rather my grandparents who live next to the line) have noticed Durham Coast services being a lot busier than previously, so it's probably the former.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:29 pm)F114TML wrote Tbh, recently I (or rather my grandparents who live next to the line) have noticed Durham Coast services being a lot busier than previously, so it's probably the former.

Wasn't it meant to go to every 30 mins. 

Why are people chosing the train over the bus? The train is like 2/3/4x more expensive? Is it the quickness? How many passengers are getting on from where?

(24 Jul 2022, 10:31 pm)Unber43 wrote Wasn't it meant to go to every 30 mins. 

Why are people chosing the train over the bus? The train is like 2/3/4x more expensive? Is it the quickness? How many passengers are getting on from where?

It depends. Throw a railcard in to the mix and it can save an absolute fortune.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:33 pm)Andreos1 wrote It depends. Throw a railcard in to the mix and it can save an absolute fortune.

Quick check for tomorrow with a 26-30 railcard Middlesbrough to newcatle £9.20, Bus £8.80, so I do withdrawn my original statement. Althought i did get the train from middlesbrough to newcastle it cost me £15. 

Although this does make me think could the X10 be extended to Hexham via Metrocentre to follow the train.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:31 pm)Unber43 wrote Wasn't it meant to go to every 30 mins. 

Why are people chosing the train over the bus? The train is like 2/3/4x more expensive? Is it the quickness? How many passengers are getting on from where?

It was, but they kept putting it off, then they lost the franchise.

To answer your questions - dunno - but if it helps:
- My grandparents live in Seaham
- Northbound is generally busier than southbound from what I've seen
- A single from Newcastle - Middlesbrough leaving tomorrow, with no railcard, is £7, or £12.40 return.
https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/t...w/1445/dep

(24 Jul 2022, 10:29 pm)F114TML wrote Tbh, recently I (or rather my grandparents who live next to the line) have noticed Durham Coast services being a lot busier than previously, so it's probably the former.

Aye I heard it's picked up along there, wonder if Horden might have helped it out and people have moved across. Then again the loss of the X84/X85 pretty much sums up where from the West have come from and the frequency reductions on the 25 (Waldridge), X21 and 21 have probably said where people from the South have gone.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:31 pm)Unber43 wrote Wasn't it meant to go to every 30 mins. 

Why are people chosing the train over the bus? The train is like 2/3/4x more expensive? Is it the quickness? How many passengers are getting on from where?

As far as I'm aware no, the other service was going to be Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Stockton - Thornaby - Middlesbrough via the Stillington Line and offer a much quicker service.

Reliability though if a train says it'll take 30 minutes, it'll take 30 minutes. A bus might say it takes 40 minutes but that depends on traffic, people running to the bus, buses stacking and so on and it might take 60 minutes and that's no use if your 5 minutes late for work and if a train happens to be late it's much easier to prove whereas using the bus was late is a dog ate my homework excuse.

(24 Jul 2022, 10:43 pm)F114TML wrote It was, but they kept putting it off, then they lost the franchise.

To answer your questions - dunno - but if it helps:
- My grandparents live in Seaham
- Northbound is generally busier than southbound from what I've seen
- A single from Newcastle - Middlesbrough leaving tomorrow, with no railcard, is £7, or £12.40 return.
https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/t...w/1445/dep

Quick loop Seaham to Newcastle is around 35 mins, the X10 is around 40, however thats in Dalton Park, it doesn't go through Seaham, a lot of people probably walk to the trains station, however unless you live in Murton walking to Dalton park can be busy, when i was waiting for the X1 from Dalton Park (which I did just for the sake of it) not that many young people got the X10, it was mainly middle aged people/older people getting the X10, but I got the train and it was full off middleaged/younger people

(24 Jul 2022, 9:22 pm)Unber43 wrote So when the cancellations is over I got this idea from what Martjin posted about hopefully turn the network profitable hopefully these changes make it happen. 

Could each depot, (Consett/Deptford/Riverside/Washington) have new routes which try for 1 year trial, for possible comerical ideas each new idea starts every 6 months or so, January/July/September changes is where it would take place to try and make a profitable new service.

And if they are losing a ridiculous amount of money they just get withdrawn after a couple of months, but for these to work, GNE need to drop leaflets around where they are thinking of a new route to see who would you it etc.

At one point in time GNE were quite prolific in trialing new routes, the X7, OK1 and X84/85.

In the wake of COVID, I can't see it...can't remember if the local authority got money to invest in new routes, that's the only way I can see it tbh

GNE, and indeed all operators, need to concentrate on consistently run the routes they’ve got now before thinking about anything new. In GNEs case, I certainly don’t see the the 24th July as being the silver bullet.

(25 Jul 2022, 12:23 am)Chris 1 wrote GNE, and indeed all operators, need to concentrate on consistently run the routes they’ve got now before thinking about anything new. In GNEs case, I certainly don’t see the the 24th July as being the silver bullet.

Correct answer I think. 

There is little to no hope of anything drastically new happening in the current climate. The best we can hope for is things like the 58 extension.

So, people can talk about "inspiration" and "creativity" until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it comes down to resource.

Real life isn't a game of Transport Tycoon,

Creating new routes for trial or testing purposes is not the answer. Bad booking decisions have played a part in where we are now, and has led to massive instability in parts of the network. That is never going to attract passenger growth - you just end up moving the same ones about.

There needs to be a mid to long term plan behind any changes to the network, in my opinion, and it should be based on proper research of what user needs are, not what is most convenient to schedule driving shifts around.

Research is what we seem to be missing most. A couple of surveys here and there isn't research and nor will it ever help you to understand the needs of customers. A coordinated effort would be a good start, but as we saw with the Big Bus Survey for the BSIP, there was only one operator bothering to push it.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

(25 Jul 2022, 10:21 am)Adrian wrote Creating new routes for trial or testing purposes is not the answer. Bad booking decisions have played a part in where we are now, and has led to massive instability in parts of the network. That is never going to attract passenger growth - you just end up moving the same ones about.

There needs to be a mid to long term plan behind any changes to the network, in my opinion, and it should be based on proper research of what user needs are, not what is most convenient to schedule driving shifts around.

Research is what we seem to be missing most. A couple of surveys here and there isn't research and nor will it ever help you to understand the needs of customers. A coordinated effort would be a good start, but as we saw with the Big Bus Survey for the BSIP, there was only one operator bothering to push it.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

And as we all know, sample size is so important and the missing elements (such as car drivers) are key to any research/survey being a success.

(I still chuckle at that discussion).

Why isn't there a third-party route analysis company, you could use this to identify existing passenger data and journeys. If for example there were enough people changing at CLS off the 703 to get to Newcastle, they could use their findings to justify a direct service.

(25 Jul 2022, 11:26 am)ASX_Terranova wrote Why isn't there a third-party route analysis company, you could use this to identify existing passenger data and journeys. If for example there were enough people changing at CLS off the 703 to get to Newcastle, they could use their findings to justify a direct service.

I believe Omnibus provide such a service as do other specific scheduling organisations.

However, they would literally just look at data and could end up with some p-hacking without local knowledge

(25 Jul 2022, 10:26 am)Andreos1 wrote And as we all know, sample size is so important and the missing elements (such as car drivers) are key to any research/survey being a success.

(I still chuckle at that discussion).

I wonder what the twins, Tim and Tom Dodds, would make of an argument which leans towards a model of franchising within the bus industry today?

Would they still be sat in the front row of a consultation meeting, gesticulating wildly to their peers whilst holding a look of incredulity on their faces at what was being proposed?

(25 Jul 2022, 12:56 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I wonder what the twins, Tim and Tom Dodds, would make of an argument which leans towards a model of franchising within the bus industry today?

Would they still be sat in the front row of a consultation meeting, gesticulating wildly to their peers whilst holding a look of incredulity on their faces at what was being proposed?

I'd hazard a guess the twins Tim and Tom Dodds would share responsibilites between them.

One would create online profiles in a vain, selfless but ultimately futile attempt to change the public perception of the franchising model.

Whilst the other split himself in to numerous other roles, including PR mouthpiece, council candidate and bus spokesman, whilst waving his arms wildly and demonstrating incredulity.
All at the same time.

(25 Jul 2022, 1:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'd hazard a guess the twins Tim and Tom Dodds would share responsibilites between them.

One would create online profiles in a vain, selfless but ultimately futile attempt to change the public perception of the franchising model.

Whilst the other split himself in to numerous other roles, including PR mouthpiece, council candidate and bus spokesman, whilst waving his arms wildly and demonstrating incredulity.
All at the same time.

Are you suggesting that he can dupe himself?

If so, reaching the required sample sizes for surveys may no longer pose a problem if you can copy yourself 20,000 times and submit as many responses. Its easy peasy actually.