(19 Jun 2021, 3:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote But what about those who don't already have a car, like myself?

If you're anything like eldest Constantopolous or his mates, then you get a car.
Like most, they fall in to the categories mentioned previously (journey times, flexibility, comfort etc).

(19 Jun 2021, 6:03 pm)Andreos1 wrote If you're anything like eldest Constantopolous or his mates, then you get a car.
Like most, they fall in to the categories mentioned previously (journey times, flexibility, comfort etc).

The only time I really feel like I need a car is if I need to get somewhere on a Sunday (but due to the archaic Sunday trading laws, that's rarely the case!)

For me, journey times aren't an issue, I'm lucky in that I can do my work from anywhere, so if I have a 2 hour bus journey I'm working for those two hours. The same journey may only take 40 minutes in the car, but those 40 minutes are 'wasted'. But I suppose if you work a 'normal' job, then that won't be the case.

As for the convenience, I suppose I'm also lucky in that I can literally see the bus stop from my window (I bought this house specifically based on public transport availability), and basically all of my family and friends live within a 2 minute walk of a bus stop.


That's not to say I won't get a car, I probably will (and it'll most certainly be electric because they're cheap to run), but I haven't reached the point yet where the inconvenience of a bus outweighs the increased cost of running a car.

(19 Jun 2021, 3:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote But what about those who don't already have a car, like myself?

I feel like that's already a losing battle to be honest. There are very few young people these days who don't have a car, don't want a car, or aren't in the process of getting a car (or don't have access to a car through other means, i.e parents, partners, friends, work colleagues). 

Just in general, I think this is an interesting point. If the services operated by these companies are so good, then why are car parks at virtually every bus depot you ever go past jam packed with cars? Drivers, to a point, have no excuse as I'd imagine there are staff cars. Management/admin likely need to be in by 8/9am, by which time the network is up and running. I don't see how you can realistically convince Joe Public to drop their car for the bus if you can't even convince your staff.

(20 Jun 2021, 11:45 am)mb134 wrote I feel like that's already a losing battle to be honest. There are very few young people these days who don't have a car, don't want a car, or aren't in the process of getting a car (or don't have access to a car through other means, i.e parents, partners, friends, work colleagues). 

Just in general, I think this is an interesting point. If the services operated by these companies are so good, then why are car parks at virtually every bus depot you ever go past jam packed with cars? Drivers, to a point, have no excuse as I'd imagine there are staff cars. Management/admin likely need to be in by 8/9am, by which time the network is up and running. I don't see how you can realistically convince Joe Public to drop their car for the bus if you can't even convince your staff.

your assuming that the cars in the car park are admin. surely most will be drivers on early shift before buses start running.  Bit like how does the snow plough driver get to work if the road are impassable due to snow?

(20 Jun 2021, 12:08 pm)Rob44 wrote your assuming that the cars in the car park are admin. surely most will be drivers on early shift before buses start running.  Bit like how does the snow plough driver get to work if the road are impassable due to snow?

I've already answered that in the post you quoted - staff cars. You'd expect a few to come in driving who might be starting the same time the staff car goes out, but a full car park? Very unlikely.

(20 Jun 2021, 12:08 pm)Rob44 wrote your assuming that the cars in the car park are admin. surely most will be drivers on early shift before buses start running.  Bit like how does the snow plough driver get to work if the road are impassable due to snow?

I don't think you can compare the two, and our economy is moving away from being a 9am-5pm Mon-Fri job. Public transport networks are still largely behind with this, although I recognise that GNE have moved some services to 24/7 and provide later runs, specifically for shift workers.

I passed the First Group HQ in Aberdeen earlier in the week, and I was surprised just how big the car park was. Having since looked at it on Google Maps, its bigger than I thought. 

Another example is Stagecoach, who still issue company cars to senior managers.

You'll never convince the public to switch away from a private car, if you cannot convince your own staff.

(20 Jun 2021, 11:12 am)streetdeckfan wrote The only time I really feel like I need a car is if I need to get somewhere on a Sunday (but due to the archaic Sunday trading laws, that's rarely the case!)

For me, journey times aren't an issue, I'm lucky in that I can do my work from anywhere, so if I have a 2 hour bus journey I'm working for those two hours. The same journey may only take 40 minutes in the car, but those 40 minutes are 'wasted'. But I suppose if you work a 'normal' job, then that won't be the case.

As for the convenience, I suppose I'm also lucky in that I can literally see the bus stop from my window (I bought this house specifically based on public transport availability), and basically all of my family and friends live within a 2 minute walk of a bus stop.


That's not to say I won't get a car, I probably will (and it'll most certainly be electric because they're cheap to run), but I haven't reached the point yet where the inconvenience of a bus outweighs the increased cost of running a car.

So it suits your needs, wants and expectations. 
Not everyone is in the same position, not everyone lives outside a bus stop, not everyone has one bus taking them the majority of their journey and not everyone can 'work' on a bus.

Eldest C has a personal life and 3 buses just to see his girlfriend (who lives 10/15 mins away in the car) was just one of the reasons he learned to drive.
Price, practicality and his job role were other factors.

I've mentioned previously that I bought a house in the past and part of the decision to buy that house was based on its public transport links.
Those links have gone unfortunately.
Fortunately, the road network allows me to get to most places quicker, easier and cheaper than the bus ever did when it operated directly or since it became a military operation to ensure connections.

The soft improvements to the on-board experience doesn't make much difference and neither do the bus lanes which appear at some point en-route to either of the 3 City Centres or at various points at other stages of my drive in.
Pricing does (been chatting about the £1 fare this morning to some mates) as do the practicalities in getting a bus home at the end of the evening. 
As attractive as that £1 fare is, it's looking like a taxi home that particular night as there isn't a bus which works for us.

(20 Jun 2021, 12:19 pm)Adrian wrote I don't think you can compare the two, and our economy is moving away from being a 9am-5pm Mon-Fri job. Public transport networks are still largely behind with this, although I recognise that GNE have moved some services to 24/7 and provide later runs, specifically for shift workers.

Also the lack of services on a Sunday. As I've said before for most people Sunday is just another day, it's nowt special, and they need to stop treating as such. Obviously they're limited by the lack of shops on a Sunday, but that's another discussion!

(20 Jun 2021, 12:20 pm)Andreos1 wrote So it suits your needs, wants and expectations. 
Not everyone is in the same position, not everyone lives outside a bus stop, not everyone has one bus taking them the majority of their journey and not everyone can 'work' on a bus.

Eldest C has a personal life and 3 buses just to see his girlfriend (who lives 10/15 mins away in the car) was just one of the reasons he learned to drive.
Price, practicality and his job role were other factors.

I've mentioned previously that I bought a house in the past and part of the decision to buy that house was based on its public transport links.
Those links have gone unfortunately.
Fortunately, the road network allows me to get to most places quicker, easier and cheaper than the bus ever did when it operated directly or since it became a military operation to ensure connections.

The soft improvements to the on-board experience doesn't make much difference and neither do the bus lanes which appear at some point en-route to either of the 3 City Centres or at various points at other stages of my drive in.
Pricing does (been chatting about the £1 fare this morning to some mates) as do the practicalities in getting a bus home at the end of the evening. 
As attractive as that £1 fare is, it's looking like a taxi home that particular night as there isn't a bus which works for us.

It does, yes. But also a lot of my friends who live up in Gateshead/Newcastle also have no intention of getting a car anytime soon. But then again, they also live and work on a single route.

One of the biggest annoyances for me using public transport is definitely the connections. It's not so bad when I'm connecting to a frequent service like the 49, but when I'm on my way back down home on an evening and I have to change from the X21 to the Arriva 6 (because the latest GNE bus to West Auckland leaves Newcastle at 4pm!), I have a 40-50 minute wait.

I think for me the thing that will tip me over edge to getting a car won't be the cost, time, or even the 'freedom' of being able to go out whenever I want, but things like being able to go to B&Q and buy bags of sand or some wood without having to pay for delivery or get the mother to pick it up, and that's something that public transport will never be able to overcome.

Go North East not running services on a Sunday is ridiculous. It's not fair leaving customers without a bus service (even an infrequent one) especially when it wastes days on a weekly or 28 day ticket. Flexi 5 is a massive improvement, but a lack of services on a Sunday is still not good customer service.

Hopefully GNE will improve this in the future. The X84/X85 should run later in the day and on Sundays.

im sure a network 1 ticket used to advertise itself as you paying for the Monday - Friday then get the Saturday and Sunday free!

(20 Jun 2021, 12:19 pm)Adrian wrote You'll never convince the public to switch away from a private car, if you cannot convince your own staff.

Staff who will have free bus travel, at that. 

Making people pay to leave behind their warm car at home, to stand in the freezing cold to wait for a bus isn't an attractive proposition regardless of how much the bus might be tarted up.

(20 Jun 2021, 1:11 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Go North East not running services on a Sunday is ridiculous. It's not fair leaving customers without a bus service (even an infrequent one) especially when it wastes days on a weekly or 28 day ticket. Flexi 5 is a massive improvement, but a lack of services on a Sunday is still not good customer service.

Hopefully GNE will improve this in the future. The X84/X85 should run later in the day and on Sundays.

If anything, it's more likely to make me buy an Arriva ticket over the GNE ticket since I live on a shared route. 

In fact, if it hadn't been for me regularly travelling up to Newcastle I think I probably would have already ditched my GNE ticket and switched mostly to Arriva since the services are more frequent (although with much worse buses), instead of mostly using GNE like I currently do.

---

(20 Jun 2021, 1:40 pm)mb134 wrote Staff who will have free bus travel, at that. 

Making people pay to leave behind their warm car at home, to stand in the freezing cold to wait for a bus isn't an attractive proposition regardless of how much the bus might be tarted up.

You only have to stand and wait in the freezing cold if you aren't prepared enough!

With the wonders of live tracking, I can get to the stop 30 seconds before the bus arrives with basically no risk

(20 Jun 2021, 1:43 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If anything, it's more likely to make me buy an Arriva ticket over the GNE ticket since I live on a shared route. 

In fact, if it hadn't been for me regularly travelling up to Newcastle I think I probably would have already ditched my GNE ticket and switched mostly to Arriva since the services are more frequent (although with much worse buses), instead of mostly using GNE like I currently do.

---

 
You only have to stand and wait in the freezing cold if you aren't prepared enough!

With the wonders of live tracking, I can get to the stop 30 seconds before the bus arrives with basically no risk 

One of the biggest annoyances for me using public transport is definitely the connections. It's not so bad when I'm connecting to a frequent service like the 49, but when I'm on my way back down home on an evening and I have to change from the X21 to the Arriva 6 (because the latest GNE bus to West Auckland leaves Newcastle at 4pm!), I have a 40-50 minute wait.

Which one is it?

Not preparing enough or because connections are poor?

(20 Jun 2021, 2:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote Which one is it?

Not preparing enough or because connections are poor?

A bit of both really.

Should I not want to wait in the cold, I could just change at Durham instead of Bishop, although that would A: assume Durham Bus Station was open, and B: assume I was willing to pay more for a ticket.

Granted I don't really have a lot of knowledge about the bus network in the North East, just the journeys I make, but most of the time my connections are made at an indoor bus station or interchange. The only time I'm really exposed to the elements is when I'm starting or ending a journey.

(20 Jun 2021, 1:43 pm)streetdeckfan wrote You only have to stand and wait in the freezing cold if you aren't prepared enough!

With the wonders of live tracking, I can get to the stop 30 seconds before the bus arrives with basically no risk

That's not always the case though. It just takes a breakdown, the bus running a couple of minutes early between timing points, an accident down the road etc. to make you have to stand there until the next bus arrives. Equally, not everyone lives next to a bus stop. My closest stop when I'm down here is a 15 minute walk away, so that's 30 minutes of walking in both directions.

I was looking back at Network One prices, in relation to the 'saving' that is being mooted under the BSIP plans. 

Back in 1984, the All Zones ticket was £186 a year:


Two years later, in 1986, prices appear to have frozen at £186:


A year later than that, in 1987, there's quite a considerable rise applied:


According to the Bank of England, inflation was at 4.2% then - but the All Zones ticket rose by 24.2% 

Present day, that same ticket is now £1150, yet if ticket prices rose with inflation, it would only be £580.
- £186 in 1986 to £580 in 2021 would have been a 212% price rise.
- Instead, it has risen by 518% - more than double the rate of inflation.

I found it quite interesting to look back at the comparison, and when we talk about declining passenger numbers and blaming private car ownership, I think we should keep a focus on how people were priced out of public transport.

has the cost of owning and running a standerd car gone up/ down in the same amount of time?

(23 Apr 2022, 7:05 pm)Rob44 wrote has the cost of owning and running a standerd car gone up/ down in the same amount of time?

Bit of an old article, but I did find this: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars...years.html

so the actual purchase of a the vehicle hasn't risen by as much as inflation but insurance and fuel have risen more.... which a bus needs on both counts. I wonder if you just looked fuel and insurance whether or not fares ( especially day, weekly month and yearly tickets) are that bad value?

(23 Apr 2022, 8:13 pm)Adrian wrote Bit of an old article, but I did find this: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars...years.html

Interesting article.


On a personal level, I've been driving since 1999. Part of the decision to drive was long term employment prospects. The other was down to the price and reliability of public transport.

Granted I had my lessons to pay for alongside any bus fares, but once passed, finances changed slightly. 
Bus fares had recently increased and the teen travel ticket wasn't an option. 

My first car was 12 years old and cost approx £750 quid.
Unleaded petrol was 69.9p litre.
Road tax was £82.50 or £155 depending whether I bought it for 6 months or a year.
Insurance was £900 a year.
MPG was quite poor. But it cost me £20 to fill the tank and I got about 200miles for my £20.
I was on minimum wage (it was introduced in April 99 just after I passed my test).

Fast forward to 2022.
I was savvy enough to take advantage of the glut of cars registered before the April 2017 car tax hike.
Paid £11k for the nearly new car (saved almost £10k on new), pay £20 road tax for the year and my insurance is about £280.
Diesel at Costco was 165.9 last time I filled up. Costs around £75 to fill and I get well over 500 miles.
MPG is approx 65mpg.
I'm not on minimum wage.

I've not done the maths or inflation calculation, but I reckon it was more expensive for me to drive 23 years ago, than it is now.
It goes without saying, public transport was a lot cheaper 23 years ago.

On a practical level, I'm travelling 50miles in the car later on today and it's taking me under an hour. To do the same journey by bus, it would be 2 operators, 3 buses and the best part of 4 hours. There's 4 of us making that journey.
2 of us will make the return trip. So another 50 miles etc etc.
Cost or time. There's only one winner. However much I want to use public transport or however much I want it to work.

Obviously that is just me and there are many others out there in different situations and circumstances.

Someone I know has just returned to work after some time away.
Travels between Concord and The Galleries. There and back x5 a week.
She's just posted on fb that it's £2 single fare. 
It goes without saying, that she's not really in a high paying role and along with the other increases in costs - some of which there are no ways around - the bus will be one of the things that will have to give.

(09 Aug 2022, 12:05 pm)Andreos1 wrote Someone I know has just returned to work after some time away.
Travels between Concord and The Galleries. There and back x5 a week.
She's just posted on fb that it's £2 single fare. 
It goes without saying, that she's not really in a high paying role and along with the other increases in costs - some of which there are no ways around - the bus will be one of the things that will have to give.

£2 single, £3.40 return, £18 week paper ticket on the bus, or £16 week ticket on the app. There are ways to save some money on that.

(09 Aug 2022, 1:08 pm)deanmachine wrote £2 single, £3.40 return, £18 week paper ticket on the bus, or £16 week ticket on the app. There are ways to save some money on that.

See, I had a look online and none of those offers were easily found.

There was a time when Washington drivers in particular would suggest returns. Guessing it wasn't done in this particular case.

(09 Aug 2022, 1:37 pm)Andreos1 wrote See, I had a look online and none of those offers were easily found.

There was a time when Washington drivers in particular would suggest returns. Guessing it wasn't done in this particular case.

Yes, helps I have such knowledge, and I know not all drivers are welcoming to give advice when asked unlike myself unfortunately. The week ticket after all is a City of Sunderland ticket rather than one specific to Washington these days, which might not be immediately obvious, especially with another Sunderland Central ticket.

Im sure i saw on the side of the bus i got to town on Monday that for a weekly on the appt was £6 quid cheaper than a paper ticket. ...... oh if only i had a reliable smart phone, or a phone at all for that matter

(09 Aug 2022, 1:58 pm)deanmachine wrote Yes, helps I have such knowledge, and I know not all drivers are welcoming to give advice when asked unlike myself unfortunately. The week ticket after all is a City of Sunderland ticket rather than one specific to Washington these days, which might not be immediately obvious, especially with another Sunderland Central ticket.

And there's the thing. Drivers haven't shared it. Information isn't easily found on the website and she's likely made her mind up about how to get home and to work for the rest of the week. Possibly beyond that too.
If she doesn't find that info and nobody shares it with her, it's another customer lost. When that's the last thing GNE are wanting.

How much would she be paying in fuel to drive in?

(09 Aug 2022, 6:23 pm)F114TML wrote How much would she be paying in fuel to drive in?

2 miles (so anywhere in Concord to The Galleries), based on driving at 40 miles per gallon at £1.86 per litre would work out as 42p. 40mpg of course being poor for a car, but shows how much it'll cost in fuel at most.

(09 Aug 2022, 6:23 pm)F114TML wrote How much would she be paying in fuel to drive in?

Pennies. Free parking at The Galleries too.
Just google mapped it and it's 1.6miles there and 1.6miles back.

Right, for some reason i thought she was driving from Consett and uses the X5 - clearly I have spectacularly misread that. As you were.