(25 Feb 2023, 12:05 am)logidoodah wrote is bustimes reliable though....in many cases I think not.

I did post the same thing in the March 2023 contracts thread and preface it by saying 'according to bustimes'

But as has been said already, although bustimes isn't perfect, it takes timetable data from traveline. For example Arriva's timetables for the P1/P2 and X94 in Whitby are also showing in the same fashion.

The thing about Percy Main depot is that it's location is handy for throwing out extra buses for the Ferry Terminal work whether it's the 327 or cruise liners. It would probably only take around 15 minutes to prep a bus and send it down the International Ferry Terminal. Also the fact that a lot of the North Tyneside School Runs use vehicles that don't meet the Newcastle emission zone at the moment, so if it was ran from Riverside, then the buses would have to go a roundabout route to avoid the zone or pay the charge.

Was looking at the map last night, and an ideal place would be next door to the Howdon Metro depot. No houses to cause any issues with regarding vehicle movements and noise, easy access from the main roads.

(25 Feb 2023, 9:39 pm)Rapidsnap wrote The thing about Percy Main depot is that it's location is handy for throwing out extra buses for the Ferry Terminal work whether it's the 327 or cruise liners. It would probably only take around 15 minutes to prep a bus and send it down the International Ferry Terminal. Also the fact that a lot of the North Tyneside School Runs use vehicles that don't meet the Newcastle emission zone at the moment, so if it was ran from Riverside, then the buses would have to go a roundabout route to avoid the zone or pay the charge.

Was looking at the map last night, and an ideal place would be next door to the Howdon Metro depot. No houses to cause any issues with regarding vehicle movements and noise, easy access from the main roads.

If Percy Main was to be the next depot to close then I sincerely hope they do have a replacement site lined up first rather than bunching all the vehicles up into other depots. Some of the depots are already massively overcrowded, such as Washington. There must be less space for vehicles even at the likes of Riverside too after the closure of the Chester depot. I don't think the drivers at Percy Main will be too chuffed either having to travel further to get to work and either having to pay tyne tunnel fees or getting stuck in traffic. Yes they could use their free travel ticket unless they are operating the first buses of the day but it would take a lot longer for them getting to work. We all know that was a big issue when Chester closed! It's often been highlighted that GNE have struggled with driver numbers and recruiting in recent times, so surely the last thing they should be doing right now is unsettling and upsetting the drivers they have now. If Percy Main is to lose the scholars contracts etc then how about they operate some of the services that currenty operate from Riverside instead? Or they could operate South Tyneside based services instead. That way buses are spread out, allowing more space at depots and drivers would be uneffected.

(25 Feb 2023, 10:30 pm)Washingtonian wrote If Percy Main was to be the next depot to close then I sincerely hope they do have a replacement site lined up first rather than bunching all the vehicles up into other depots. Some of the depots are already massively overcrowded, such as Washington. There must be less space for vehicles even at the likes of Riverside too after the closure of the Chester depot. I don't think the drivers at Percy Main will be too chuffed either having to travel further to get to work and either having to pay tyne tunnel fees or getting stuck in traffic. Yes they could use their free travel ticket unless they are operating the first buses of the day but it would take a lot longer for them getting to work. We all know that was a big issue when Chester closed! It's often been highlighted that GNE have struggled with driver numbers and recruiting in recent times, so surely the last thing they should be doing right now is unsettling and upsetting the drivers they have now. If Percy Main is to lose the scholars contracts etc then how about they operate some of the services that currenty operate from Riverside instead? Or they could operate South Tyneside based services instead. That way buses are spread out, allowing more space at depots and drivers would be uneffected.

At this stage there's no indication Percy Main is to close - it's merely rumour due to contract losses. 

It's an awkward one really - who's to say this time next year GNE might be in a position to put in lower bids and win a few of the contracted services back. Equally, if GNE were to lose the contracts for the scholar services then you really would be having to look at the feasibility of running a depot for essentially just the 1, 41/41A and 309/10/11. Of course the 309/10/11 will become the 307/9 with the Coast Road Agreement and a PVR reduction of 2 while the 41/41A extension to Howdon is going so will be reduced to a PVR of 3. Tbh if the Hospital Shuttle ever goes back to using the Sprinters, you could probably stick 5499 an 5500 on the Q3 and extend it from Wallsend to Hadrian Park and do away with the 41/41A.

(25 Feb 2023, 10:49 pm)peter wrote At this stage there's no indication Percy Main is to close - it's merely rumour due to contract losses. 

It's an awkward one really - who's to say this time next year GNE might be in a position to put in lower bids and win a few of the contracted services back. Equally, if GNE were to lose the contracts for the scholar services then you really would be having to look at the feasibility of running a depot for essentially just the 1, 41/41A and 309/10/11. Of course the 309/10/11 will become the 307/9 with the Coast Road Agreement and a PVR reduction of 2 while the 41/41A extension to Howdon is going so will be reduced to a PVR of 3. Tbh if the Hospital Shuttle ever goes back to using the Sprinters, you could probably stick 5499 an 5500 on the Q3 and extend it from Wallsend to Hadrian Park and do away with the 41/41A.

Yes I understand where you are coming from. I understand that it is just a rumour but if Percy Main was to close and some drivers decide to leave and find alternative employment, services may have to be cancelled or reduced again resulting in less passenger confidence and ultimately lower passenger numbers. Plus, if it was to close, there is more strain on the other depots in terms of space and also maintenence. That would mean more buses at other depots with less pits/hydraulic lifts to carry out the maintenance work and potentially leave more buses off the road as there would be a backlog. While I understand GNE like any other business understandably have to cut costs these days, I am concerned that potentially closing another depot could result in further and further decline in bus use in the area. When does cost cutting end and where does looking for areas to grow the business start? It really is an awkward one.

(25 Feb 2023, 9:39 pm)Rapidsnap wrote The thing about Percy Main depot is that it's location is handy for throwing out extra buses for the Ferry Terminal work whether it's the 327 or cruise liners. It would probably only take around 15 minutes to prep a bus and send it down the International Ferry Terminal. Also the fact that a lot of the North Tyneside School Runs use vehicles that don't meet the Newcastle emission zone at the moment, so if it was ran from Riverside, then the buses would have to go a roundabout route to avoid the zone or pay the charge.

Was looking at the map last night, and an ideal place would be next door to the Howdon Metro depot. No houses to cause any issues with regarding vehicle movements and noise, easy access from the main roads.

Believe the ex London B9's are heading to Riverside so they will be all Euro 6 soon. Depending on whether it costs for buses to use the tunnel, I know there's an exemption for buses in local service but not sure if it includes buses not in service wonder if there could be a case for opening one at the other side of the tunnel instead.

Could easily move the likes of the 5, 9, 24, 26, 27, 41/41A and 50 into it and give a massive relief to both Washington and Deptford and in turn move the 1 to Riverside and the 307/309 to either - whatever is easier.

Distance wise is negligible for most routes really.

Heck you could even make a super depot and shut Washington in the process; with the 34/34A to Consett, 8/X1 to Deptford, 4/Washington Locals to the new depot and 25/28/29 to Riverside and even possibly the 57/58 there aswell and have a hub based at Heworth with the 4/57/58 similar to Arriva at Morpeth (remember it was Featham who set that up).

It's removing the old depots and replacing them with one modern depot.

Well the 25/29/28 are planned to move out of Washington which imo makes no sense as surely they're better at washington as not one journey starts at Gateshead/Newcastle

I'd assume the timetable for them would have slight changes to accommodate them moving to riverside.

(26 Feb 2023, 9:27 am)Jack Gill wrote I'd assume the timetable for them would have slight changes to accommodate them moving to riverside.

They're tendered services so the timetable won't be changing mind but assuming they put a bid in with Riverside in mind.

(26 Feb 2023, 9:22 am)Unber43 wrote Well the 25/29/28 are planned to move out of Washington which imo makes no sense as surely they're better at washington as not one journey starts at Gateshead/Newcastle

The dead mileage at the start/end of the day isn’t really where the biggest cost is, it is in the reliefs.

For the 25 and 28/29 to be based at Washington, driver reliefs are all remote (mainly at Chester-le-Street). This means for every relief, you add c.30 mins of paid time (assuming 15 mins there and 15 mins back) to duties. This also results in extra drivers being required to operate the service. There is also the fuel, maintenance and lease costs associated with vans.

At Riverside, buses pass through Gateshead Interchange, where Go North East has a canteen. This means no vans are required (saving all that cost) and no extra paid time for travelling to a remote relief point.

The 58 for example probably required an extra 5-6 drivers just to run it from Washington (due to remote reliefs at Follingsby) compared to when it operates from Riverside. Assuming each of those drivers are paid £30k a year (plus, for ease, let’s say £10k extra in on-costs for tax/pension contributions etc), that’s a cost of around £200-240k a year, just to run the service from the depot which it doesn’t naturally belong.

The Peterlee local services were recently questioned too, and the same applies by interworking with the X6. Far more efficient which helps keep costs down and, in that instance, keeps cost down to the local authority who fund those services.

Hopefully you can now understand it makes complete sense…


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(26 Feb 2023, 10:41 am)Dan wrote The dead mileage at the start/end of the day isn’t really where the biggest cost is, it is in the reliefs.

For the 25 and 28/29 to be based at Washington, driver reliefs are all remote (mainly at Chester-le-Street). This means for every relief, you add c.30 mins of paid time (assuming 15 mins there and 15 mins back) to duties. This also results in extra drivers being required to operate the service. There is also the fuel, maintenance and lease costs associated with vans.

At Riverside, buses pass through Gateshead Interchange, where Go North East has a canteen. This means no vans are required (saving all that cost) and no extra paid time for travelling to a remote relief point.

The 58 for example probably required an extra 5-6 drivers just to run it from Washington (due to remote reliefs at Follingsby) compared to when it operates from Riverside. Assuming each of those drivers are paid £30k a year (plus, for ease, let’s say £10k extra in on-costs for tax/pension contributions etc), that’s a cost of around £200-240k a year, just to run the service from the depot which it doesn’t naturally belong.

The Peterlee local services were recently questioned too, and the same applies by interworking with the X6. Far more efficient which helps keep costs down and, in that instance, keeps cost down to the local authority who fund those services.

Hopefully you can now understand it makes complete sense…


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Yeah it does. Thanks. Also I suppose its straight down the A1, which can't be much further than what it is from Washington, according to Google Maps it says it takes 12-16 mins from Concord to CLS, and it takes 16-20 from Metrocentre so I suppose that it just minor. Hopefully they'll not be moved till Riverside have enough drivers pretty sure they'll need around 18-21 to run 28/29/25 (Monday - Saturday)

Peterlee still has some remote reliefs doesn't it Im pretty sure it's 206/208, if the X6 were to go to every 30 mins that would stop reliefs for 208/206 presumably if it could all time right

(26 Feb 2023, 10:58 am)Unber43 wrote Yeah it does. Thanks. Also I suppose its straight down the A1, which can't be much further than what it is from Washington, according to Google Maps it says it takes 12-16 mins from Concord to CLS, and it takes 16-20 from Metrocentre so I suppose that it just minor. Hopefully they'll not be moved till Riverside have enough drivers pretty sure they'll need around 18-21 to run 28/29/25 (Monday - Saturday)

Peterlee still has some remote reliefs doesn't it Im pretty sure it's 206/208, if the X6 were to go to every 30 mins that would stop reliefs for 208/206 presumably if it could all time right

There will be no reliefs on the 25 and 28/29 at Chester-le-Street when they transfer to Riverside. They will be at Gateshead Interchange.

As I said before, this is why they naturally belong at Riverside (only transferring to Washington temporarily as GNE guaranteed drivers their first choice of depot, as part of the agreement when closing Chester-le-Street) - far more efficient as there aren’t any remote reliefs.


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(26 Feb 2023, 11:40 am)Dan wrote There will be no reliefs on the 25 and 28/29 at Chester-le-Street when they transfer to Riverside. They will be at Gateshead Interchange.

As I said before, this is why they naturally belong at Riverside (only transferring to Washington temporarily as GNE guaranteed drivers their first choice of depot, as part of the agreement when closing Chester-le-Street) - far more efficient as there aren’t any remote reliefs.


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Sorry for the Concord/Metrocentre Journey Time to CLS that was for running dead on a morning/ evening

Overheard a driver on the 1 saying that it's getting extended back to Metrocentre (again) - I suppose this would make sense to replace the 96 (or something similar) if Riverside are struggling for drivers.

Also heard that GNE have won the contract for the 51 on evenings/Sundays.

(26 Feb 2023, 2:39 pm)Thomas12 wrote Overheard a driver on the 1 saying that it's getting extended back to Metrocentre (again) - I suppose this would make sense to replace the 96 (or something similar) if Riverside are struggling for drivers.

Also heard that GNE have won the contract for the 51 on evenings/Sundays.

I wonder where they're getting the vehicles from for the 1

(26 Feb 2023, 3:08 pm)Unber43 wrote I wonder where they're getting the vehicles from for the 1

Probably just going to use the deckers from the Reduced 307/309 routes.

Errrm what was their reason for withdrawing it from the Metrocentre again?

(26 Feb 2023, 5:06 pm)V514DFT wrote Errrm what was their reason for withdrawing it from the Metrocentre again?

No passengers probably or they knew the StreetLite couldn't handle it

Wasn't it cos of the 11.

(26 Feb 2023, 5:41 pm)Unber43 wrote Wasn't it cos of the 11.

Not sure. It was the 1A/1B were cut from Metrocentre. Sure the 11 was withdrawn before that

(26 Feb 2023, 5:06 pm)V514DFT wrote Errrm what was their reason for withdrawing it from the Metrocentre again?

Unless they're planning to cut the 96 down to hourly or upto every 20 minutes or 1 down to every 30 minutes then it won't work.

That's why btw, the 1 was reduced from every 15 minutes to every 20 minutes.

(26 Feb 2023, 5:56 pm)Storx wrote Unless they're planning to cut the 96 down to hourly or upto every 20 minutes or 1 down to every 30 minutes then it won't work.

That's why btw, the 1 was reduced from every 15 minutes to every 20 minutes.

Thought it was something like that

The 1 might go down to every 30 mins tbh. Which is just going to destroy the service further

(26 Feb 2023, 10:11 pm)Unber43 wrote The 1 might go down to every 30 mins tbh. Which is just going to destroy the service further

Who knows, the 1 might go up to every 10 minutes with drivers spare

An interesting but potentially controversial suggestion here, but extend the 58 from Follingsby Park to Washington Galleries (thus allowing Washington Depot to run the service reducing the distance for driver changeovers with them being done at Concord). Curtail the 4 to terminate at either Galleries or Concord with odd journies at certain times going to Follingsby Park Amazon to coincide with shift changeover times.

(26 Feb 2023, 11:06 pm)Rapidsnap wrote An interesting but potentially controversial suggestion here, but extend the 58 from Follingsby Park to Washington Galleries (thus allowing Washington Depot to run the service reducing the distance for driver changeovers with them being done at Concord). Curtail the 4 to terminate at either Galleries or Concord with odd journies at certain times going to Follingsby Park Amazon to coincide with shift changeover times.

Honestly I think it depends on how many people go from Houghton through Washington and go onto Heworth/Concord.

Perhaps combined the 4/58?

If the 1 did go to Metrocentre again. Would it warrant a 30 minute service reduction and allocated decekrs instead

96 can get pretty busy, tho on a night it is dead

---

Tbf it could just be on a night/evening

(26 Feb 2023, 5:56 pm)Storx wrote Unless they're planning to cut the 96 down to hourly or upto every 20 minutes or 1 down to every 30 minutes then it won't work.

That's why btw, the 1 was reduced from every 15 minutes to every 20 minutes.

Was the 1 not split into the 1A/1B running up to every 20 minutes or 20/40 / hourly until the extension was withdrawn?

In theory, if Riverside needs resource and Percy Main has the available drivers, it would make sense to re-instate the 1A/1B.

And it would allow the X72 to be quickened up.

(27 Feb 2023, 5:51 am)L469 YVK wrote Was the 1 not split into the 1A/1B running up to every 20 minutes or 20/40 / hourly until the extension was withdrawn?

In theory, if Riverside needs resource and Percy Main has the available drivers, it would make sense to re-instate the 1A/1B.

And it would allow the X72 to be quickened up.

Yeah think so but that would mean effectively upping the 96 upto 20 minutes again and not sure it's needed tbh unless they do that instead of the 97 and run the 1/97 every 10 minutes but that's confusing numbers wise vs 96 every 30 minutes and 97 every 15 minutes. It's technically the same number of buses on the core bit down Bensham Bank.