(21 Mar 2023, 11:02 pm)Jimmi wrote By 'guaranteed connections' we're referring to advertised connections in a timetable where require a change of bus (or method of transport), the vast majority of Stagecoach 685's are actually 'through connections' but are often referred to as 'guaranteed connection' whereby it's the same bus continuing through to reach a terminus (the 685 is split reg with splits at Hexham Bus Station and Brampton but its the same bus all the way through from Newcastle to Carlisle). *this practice is to get round having to abide to EU driving regulations which is required on routes which exceed 50km.

Only time you are required to change buses on the 685 is on Sundays when the NE run the Newcastle to Hexham portion whilst Cumbria does Hexham to Carlisle (also applies to the first departure from Carlisle on Mon-Sat mornings)

Regarding the first paragraph - thanks for the explanation. 

And that exactly what I meant for the 685

when it was Stagecoach and Arriva running it, I definitely remember there being a decent gap before/after connecting arrivals/depatures to allow for connections between the two.

(19 Mar 2023, 11:05 pm)Storx wrote Believe they're both technically right.

As far as I'm aware the 57 Durham to Kelloe and 57A throughout was commercial (it's all it was until a few year ago) until they won the 58 and extended the 57 through to Hartlepool.

Seems Arriva registered to cancel the 57 outright and 57A from Trimdon to Hartlepool but appears Durham pulled the plug for the 57 extension at the same time (now the 59).

(20 Mar 2023, 6:18 pm)RobinHood wrote I think Arriva were commercial between Durham and Kelloe originally on 57 and Durham to Trimdon on 57A.

Kelloe to Hartlepool and Trimdon to Hartlepool (formally a 33!) are the contacted elements.

I think you are right though, Arriva originally registered a Durham to Trimdon, but looks like DCC have asked them to do something different whilst they procure the connection. All very last minute!

I'm wondering if the 57 Kelloe to Hartlepool and 57A Trimdon to Hartlepool were deminimis extensions? Hence why described as financially supported to a considerable extent but essentially operated commercially. With the contracts for these extensions being up for renewal it seems like Arriva had essentially decided they were quite happy not running either of the supported extensions or the commercial stretch between Durham and Kelloe on the 57 anymore, keeping just the 57A hourly between Durham and Trimdon (re-numbered 57). The original 57 timetable between Durham and Trimdon only is on Arriva's website atm, I've attached it to this post.

DCC have obviously had to step in with replacements. It's interesting because prior to Arriva taking over the 58, DCC funded for the 58 in full (operated by Scarlet Band) from Durham to Hartlepool and the 57A extension from Trimdon to Hartlepool. In this instance they've seemingly negotiated with Arriva to ditch Trimdon in favour of continuing to fund the Kelloe to Hartlepool section of the 58 tacked on to Arriva's commercial service. But of course in the process, the Trimdon to Hartlepool stretch not only gets reduced to every 2 hours but also loses the direct link to Durham. With this being an emergency contract, hopefully they'll be able to do something with it, either an hourly Kelloe to Hartlepool service or a 2 hourly Durham to Hartlepool service would be better than the current 59.

57 was a terrible route. I got in it last year to go to durham took 2 and a half hours and no one got on round all the collories it would make moeny if it stoped at Durham Kelloe and then Hartlepool could be called X57

(25 Mar 2023, 2:53 pm)Lollist wrote 57 was a terrible route. I got in it last year to go to durham took 2 and a half hours and no one got on round all the collories it would make moeny if it stoped at Durham Kelloe and then Hartlepool could be called X57

Regarding your X57, direct services don’t work anymore especially for private bus companies which only interested in profits first to make there shareholders smile, passengers from Hartlepool could get the 24 to Durham from Hartlepool on the times that suit the bus company, the route for the 57/57a saga is more for the communities and villages to be connected which are not profitable so there have to be tendered out by the local authority. It’s not just for passengers who want to go from Hartlepool to Durham quick as possible.


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(25 Mar 2023, 2:53 pm)Lollist wrote 57 was a terrible route. I got in it last year to go to durham took 2 and a half hours and no one got on round all the collories it would make moeny if it stoped at Durham Kelloe and then Hartlepool could be called X57

It doesn't take that long, it just feels slow if you do the full thing which I can't imagine many people would want to do.

Your suggestion is essentially the 57A except for seemingly not serving Trimdon Village.

I still doubt the demand for a fast Durham to Hartlepool run is there.

The routes are the way they are to serve all the villages so they can go to Durham, Hartlepool or between the villages along the route and these stretches are supported by the council so Arriva have little choice in routes.

(25 Mar 2023, 11:30 am)peter wrote I'm wondering if the 57 Kelloe to Hartlepool and 57A Trimdon to Hartlepool were deminimis extensions? Hence why described as financially supported to a considerable extent but essentially operated commercially. With the contracts for these extensions being up for renewal it seems like Arriva had essentially decided they were quite happy not running either of the supported extensions or the commercial stretch between Durham and Kelloe on the 57 anymore, keeping just the 57A hourly between Durham and Trimdon (re-numbered 57). The original 57 timetable between Durham and Trimdon only is on Arriva's website atm, I've attached it to this post.

DCC have obviously had to step in with replacements. It's interesting because prior to Arriva taking over the 58, DCC funded for the 58 in full (operated by Scarlet Band) from Durham to Hartlepool and the 57A extension from Trimdon to Hartlepool. In this instance they've seemingly negotiated with Arriva to ditch Trimdon in favour of continuing to fund the Kelloe to Hartlepool section of the 58 tacked on to Arriva's commercial service. But of course in the process, the Trimdon to Hartlepool stretch not only gets reduced to every 2 hours but also loses the direct link to Durham. With this being an emergency contract, hopefully they'll be able to do something with it, either an hourly Kelloe to Hartlepool service or a 2 hourly Durham to Hartlepool service would be better than the current 59.

It's certainly a baffling one to be fair. Personally they should move the routes around imo. I don't really see the point in the middle section of the 58 it just duplicates the 22.

Personally something like:

New 205 - Every Hour, https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.77801...4e!1m0!3e0

206 - Every Hour, Extended to Hartlepool from Wingate

Thornley and Wheatley Hill to Hartlepool customers change at Peterlee. It's much better than the mess right now imo.

Have this from the mouth of the Commercial Manager who arranged the changes

That 57 isn’t meant to be on the website.
It was dropped in favour of a revised 58 - which I believe will not serve Thornley and run direct from Wheatley Hill to Wingate.

(25 Mar 2023, 4:02 pm)Kuyoyo wrote Have this from the mouth of the Commercial Manager who arranged the changes

That 57 isn’t meant to be on the website.
It was dropped in favour of a revised 58 - which I believe will not serve Thornley and run direct from Wheatley Hill to Wingate.

The timetables on Arriva's website are always a mess, some of the new ones have Saturday and Sunday but no Monday-Friday times for example. Someone's obviously uploaded the original new 57 timetable - still no sign of the 58 timetable. 

Doesn't surprise me that it's skipping Thornley. Operationally Arriva seem determined to reduce the PVR by a specific amount. Currently the PVR for the 49/49A/57/57A is 9, the original 57 was a PVR of 2, and a 15-minute frequency on the 49/49A a PVR of 3, so a reduction of 4. The new 58 seems to be a PVR of 3 - going off the arrival and departure times shown on the 59 timetable - and it seems like they've cut out bits including Thornley, parts of Kelloe and Bowburn to make sure it can be done standalone.

The change to the 49/49A was only registered at the same time as the 58 on the 9th of March, not when they originally registered these changes back in February. So I reckon they've reduced the frequency on the 49/49A to provide the extra bus needed for the 58 and have made sure the 58 can fit in a round 3 hour circuit - arriving at Durham and departing 5 minutes later.

(25 Mar 2023, 4:18 pm)peter wrote The timetables on Arriva's website are always a mess, some of the new ones have Saturday and Sunday but no Monday-Friday times for example. Someone's obviously uploaded the original new 57 timetable - still no sign of the 58 timetable. 

Doesn't surprise me that it's skipping Thornley. Operationally Arriva seem determined to reduce the PVR by a specific amount. Currently the PVR for the 49/49A/57/57A is 9, the original 57 was a PVR of 2, and a 15-minute frequency on the 49/49A a PVR of 3, so a reduction of 4. The new 58 seems to be a PVR of 3 - going off the arrival and departure times shown on the 59 timetable - and it seems like they've cut out bits including Thornley, parts of Kelloe and Bowburn to make sure it can be done standalone.

The change to the 49/49A was only registered at the same time as the 58 on the 9th of March, not when they originally registered these changes back in February. So I reckon they've reduced the frequency on the 49/49A to provide the extra bus needed for the 58 and have made sure the 58 can fit in a round 3 hour circuit - arriving at Durham and departing 5 minutes later.

I suspect also linked strongly to the current driver shortfall at Durham.

I expect decisions have been made by Arriva to not operate the 57/57A in its current form due to this, but Durham have suggested an alternative and supported a reduction on Service 49/49A to ensure the same end result in PVR overall as the initial 2 bus plan of Durham to Trimdon and back.

(25 Mar 2023, 3:45 pm)Jimmi wrote It doesn't take that long, it just feels slow if you do the full thing which I can't imagine many people would want to do.

Your suggestion is essentially the 57A except for seemingly not serving Trimdon Village.

I still doubt the demand for a fast Durham to Hartlepool run is there.

The routes are the way they are to serve all the villages so they can go to Durham, Hartlepool or between the villages along the route and these stretches are supported by the council so Arriva have little choice in routes.

Why wouldn’t there be a demand for a fast route to Durham
City from Hartlepool.? I did the 1h30 min journey recently as a day out drinking in Durham City is good. More people would go to DC if the journey was faster . Considering Hartlepool is within ceremonial boundaries of Co Durham , a good connection could be grown. There isn’t a direct rail link either.

(26 Mar 2023, 9:30 pm)Economic505 wrote Why wouldn’t there be a demand for a fast route to Durham
City from Hartlepool.? I did the 1h30 min journey recently as a day out drinking in Durham City is good. More people would go to DC if the journey was faster . Considering Hartlepool is within ceremonial boundaries of Co Durham , a good connection could be grown. There isn’t a direct rail link either.

A few people going for a drink isn't going to make a successful bus route. There's no commuter links between the two places and there's nothing in between to serve either.

No-one and I mean no-one will want to go from Durham to Hartlepool.

I'd highly doubt there'd be a Durham to Stockton express either if Coxhoe and Sedgefield - two sizeable towns / villages weren't in the middle to prop it up.

(26 Mar 2023, 9:50 pm)Storx wrote A few people going for a drink isn't going to make a successful bus route. There's no commuter links between the two places and there's nothing in between to serve either.

No-one and I mean no-one will want to go from Durham to Hartlepool.

I'd highly doubt there'd be a Durham to Stockton express either if Coxhoe and Sedgefield - two sizeable towns / villages weren't in the middle to prop it up.

Uber it is then.

(25 Mar 2023, 4:02 pm)Kuyoyo wrote Have this from the mouth of the Commercial Manager who arranged the changes

That 57 isn’t meant to be on the website.
It was dropped in favour of a revised 58 - which I believe will not serve Thornley and run direct from Wheatley Hill to Wingate.

Has anyone seen the timetable for the new 58, I can’t see to find it and there’s nothing showing on bustimes, Arriva or Google for me. Google is suggesting a three hour one way trip from Cassop, which includes a walk to Kelloe, the 59 and two trains via Middlesbrough and Darlington to get to Durham City Centre! 

As for the new 58, I’m thinking it’ll serve Thornley still it’s actually stops in Wheatley Hill that’ll be missed (such as those on Front Street, Quilstyle Road & Quetlaw Road) as it I think it won’t do the loop like the 22/57 does now and it’ll rejoin the A181 to go past the Jet Garage.

Local councillors in Trimdon aren’t happy about the two-hourly 59 bus, there’s a meeting on Friday - which apparently has representatives from Arriva and Durham County Council.

(29 Mar 2023, 9:48 am)Drifter60 wrote Has anyone seen the timetable for the new 58, I can’t see to find it and there’s nothing showing on bustimes, Arriva or Google for me. Google is suggesting a three hour one way trip from Cassop, which includes a walk to Kelloe, the 59 and two trains via Middlesbrough and Darlington to get to Durham City Centre! 

As for the new 58, I’m thinking it’ll serve Thornley still it’s actually stops in Wheatley Hill that’ll be missed (such as those on Front Street, Quilstyle Road & Quetlaw Road) as it I think it won’t do the loop like the 22/57 does now and it’ll rejoin the A181 to go past the Jet Garage.

Local councillors in Trimdon aren’t happy about the two-hourly 59 bus, there’s a meeting on Friday - which apparently has representatives from Arriva and Durham County Council.

Timetable is on the website DCC use for their bus timetables: https://durhamcc-lts.trapezegroupazure.co.uk/departures

For the correct timetable, select 58 Interchange - Millburngate Stand K (or reverse).

Image of the new 58 & 59 routes (blue is current route, red is their new routes). [Excuse the crap quality, damn Facebook compression]

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Article on Arriva's cuts to service this weekend: https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2...velihoods/

(29 Mar 2023, 9:48 am)Drifter60 wrote Has anyone seen the timetable for the new 58, I can’t see to find it and there’s nothing showing on bustimes, Arriva or Google for me. Google is suggesting a three hour one way trip from Cassop, which includes a walk to Kelloe, the 59 and two trains via Middlesbrough and Darlington to get to Durham City Centre! 

As for the new 58, I’m thinking it’ll serve Thornley still it’s actually stops in Wheatley Hill that’ll be missed (such as those on Front Street, Quilstyle Road & Quetlaw Road) as it I think it won’t do the loop like the 22/57 does now and it’ll rejoin the A181 to go past the Jet Garage.

Local councillors in Trimdon aren’t happy about the two-hourly 59 bus, there’s a meeting on Friday - which apparently has representatives from Arriva and Durham County Council.

Think your right with the route, here's the timetables though from Traveline. Ones the condensed version, the other is the full version.

(29 Mar 2023, 11:11 am)Storx wrote Think you’re right with the route, here's the timetables though from Traveline. Ones the condensed version, the other is the full version.

I was just thinking that the Wheatley Hill diversion couldn’t say that much time, but then I looking at that new timetable it seems the 58 will have 5 minutes layover at each end, for a route taking best part of 90 minutes, you’d want more than that in an ideal world like. So with the few minutes shaved from Wheatley Hill and the straight road through Kelloe I guess they’ve managed to avoid adding another bus into the PVR.

(23 Mar 2023, 11:36 am)F114TML wrote You're certainly correct. This one's from May 2009
Am I correct in thinking this effectively replaced the X11 which was direct?

The X11 was a one-per-week direct journey for Saturday shoppers, didn't last too long. I was a user of the X35/X9 combo service and found it great at the time. 

(29 Mar 2023, 11:04 am)Jimmi wrote Timetable is on the website DCC use for their bus timetables: https://durhamcc-lts.trapezegroupazure.co.uk/departures

For the correct timetable, select 58 Interchange - Millburngate Stand K (or reverse).

Image of the new 58 & 59 routes (blue is current route, red is their new routes). [Excuse the crap quality, damn Facebook compression]

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Article on Arriva's cuts to service this weekend: https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2...velihoods/

Looking at maps & timetables of the 58/59 they highlight the wastefulness of the new situation...

It'll be possible to board a 58 in Hartlepool Town Centre [x0:29], alight at the hospital [0x:41]; board the 59 from there [x0:45], ride to Kelloe [x1:19]; then re-board [x:1:23] the same vehicle you left in Hartlepool on the same 58 journey to Durham [x1:55]. All of which would be quicker than the 'direct' 24!

Are all 306 / 308 boards now operated fully out of Blyth?

Noticed that the X10/X11 also now interwork with the 306 during the evening too

(03 Apr 2023, 9:37 pm)L469 YVK wrote Are all 306 / 308 boards now operated fully out of Blyth?

No

Rumours are abound that the withdrawal of services 51-55 have been announced to Arriva staff today.

(09 May 2023, 4:14 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Rumours are abound that the withdrawal of services 51-55 have been announced to Arriva staff today.

As in 51 & 55, or 51 through 55?

(09 May 2023, 5:02 pm)Unber43 wrote As in 51 & 55, or 51 through 55?

51, 52, 53, 54 and 55.

Hmm strange. If it is true its a strange one considering the 51 was only just saved during march & Arriva reput the 52/53 back to every 30 minutes

If the 54 goes I wonder if Stagecoach would take it full time since they already run the evening & Sundays timetable now. 55 could go to GNE working out of Percy Main. But the 51/52/53 be strange. Hopefully this isn't true as they are quite a core asset to North Shields/Cobalt/Killingworth & Cramlington

(09 May 2023, 5:22 pm)Busu284 wrote Hmm strange. If it is true its a strange one considering the 51 was only just saved during march & Arriva reput the 52/53 back to every 30 minutes

If the 54 goes I wonder if Stagecoach would take it full time since they already run the evening & Sundays timetable now. 55 could go to GNE working out of Percy Main. But the 51/52/53 be strange. Hopefully this isn't true as they are quite a core asset to North Shields/Cobalt/Killingworth & Cramlington

It is true.

Newcastle (Walkergate) will close in September. Trade Union were told last week.

Arriva have apparently already told Nexus and they are working on tendering the 51-55. Arriva are focusing on their interurban services instead from Blyth.

They are literally cutting themselves out existence. Incredible.

(09 May 2023, 5:28 pm)RobinHood wrote It is true.

Newcastle (Walkergate) will close in September. Trade Union were told last week.

Arriva have apparently already told Nexus and they are working on tendering the 51-55. Arriva are focusing on their interurban services instead from Blyth.

Nowt like growing a network and finding out what the punters want is there?

Mind, I cant see this being the only example. 
If the cash isn't there, they aren't forecasting growth - then they're not going to afford vehicles

Wonder if there might be some changes to some existing services to cover these routes.

X8 serving Killingworth
X7/X8 serving Matthew Bank
57A rerouted via Fern Drive

To pick three which would least cover some of it with little change.

(09 May 2023, 5:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote Nowt like growing a network and finding out what the punters want is there?

Mind, I cant see this being the only example. 
If the cash isn't there, they aren't forecasting growth - then they're not going to afford vehicles

Still, it will give L469 LVK a chance to redesign the network for the umpteenth time with all services going through Hadrian Park and Billy Mill. 

Oh, and a super-depot at Percy Main.

Oh, oh, oh. And the 22 to be split into two separate services at Willington Square roundabout.

(09 May 2023, 5:28 pm)RobinHood wrote It is true.

Newcastle (Walkergate) will close in September. Trade Union were told last week.

Arriva have apparently already told Nexus and they are working on tendering the 51-55. Arriva are focusing on their interurban services instead from Blyth.

At this rate, North Tynside will be effectively franchised through the back door.