(11 Nov 2023, 11:47 pm)mb134 wrote Stagecoach up there now are poor as well. Maintenance is shockingly bad, they've had 2 E400s (19215 and 19378 I believe) up in flames this year alone, and members of the same batch up in flames in recent years too (19212 and 19373, which has had multiple).  https://www.aberdeenlive.news/news/aberd...re-8867759. 

You'd think investment in replacing the remaining B7TLs would be priority, then the Temsas? Sort those out and you're making decent inroads. Some new deckers for Blyth and the DB300s can retire onto the likes of the 43 and X46 at Durham.

Shame to see up there, to be honest. Used always to be quite ahead especially for the size of the city.

---

Yeah totally agreed, investing in some singles for the X4/5/5A at Stockton and Redcar would go a long way in getting arid of most of the Temsa's as they're desperate for something better, then a batch of deckers and/or singles - probably a mix for Darlington to replace their Streetlites on the 1/5 and 6 at Durham and move the Streetlite's to Ashington to replace the Pulsars then upgrade other routes such as the 2 at Darlington, 63 at Redcar, 8/9 at Stockton, 15 at Stockton to pick a few that could be done. They all definitely deserve an upgrade with the Pulsars going onto the X2/X3/64 at Redcar.

Would make a good innings at getting arid of everything for a few year and give a few flagship routes some much needed investment which they desperately need. Could start making inroads on the 09 Pulsars which some are looking extremely tired aswell and would give everyone a share for some investment.

(12 Nov 2023, 12:07 am)Storx wrote Shame to see up there, to be honest. Used always to be quite ahead especially for the size of the city.

---

Yeah totally agreed, investing in some singles for the X4/5/5A at Stockton and Redcar would go a long way in getting arid of most of the Temsa's as they're desperate for something better, then a batch of deckers and/or singles - probably a mix for Darlington to replace their Streetlites on the 1/5 and 6 at Durham and move the Streetlite's to Ashington to replace the Pulsars then upgrade other routes such as the 2 at Darlington, 63 at Redcar, 8/9 at Stockton, 15 at Stockton to pick a few that could be done. They all definitely deserve an upgrade with the Pulsars going onto the X2/X3/64 at Redcar.

Would make a good innings at getting arid of everything for a few year and give a few flagship routes some much needed investment which they desperately need. Could start making inroads on the 09 Pulsars which some are looking extremely tired aswell and would give everyone a share for some investment.

At risk of getting massively off topic and somehow getting onto a Coast Road suggestion, and I'm aware it's fantasy land, but just to show what you could do with an order of bang on 100 vehicles over the next couple of years and spreading the investment over (nearly) all the depots:

Redcar/Whitby: 
21x B8RLE Evora:

• 21 for the 18 X3/X4 boards. 
  
• The 14 Streetlites at Redcar currently would be moved to the 63 for the 13 boards on there. 
  
• 1584-1589 from Darlington, for the 62 and 81. 
  
• This would allow for the withdrawal of all Temsas and Pulsars currently at Redcar, and give an allocation of 41 single decks for a PVR of 37. 
  
• The 5x Redcar Pulsars would move to Durham, replacing the remaining E200s there. 
  

3x 8.9m E200 MMC: 

• To replace the remaining Solo's at Whitby.  
  

7x E400 MMC:

• To replace 7401-6 on the X93. 
  
• The 2 spares over the winter would allow for greater rotation, but also would mean that there is still 1 spare MMC in the summer vs the PVR. 
  
• 7401-6 would be retained for the X94 and P1/2, as 7424-6 and 7609/10 are now, and spread across Redcar/Darlington/Durham over the winter as required to cover for repaints/refurbishments/long term VORs. 
  
• 7424-6 withdrawn, 7609/10 sent to Durham. 
  

Stockton: 
20x B8RLE Evora: 

• For the 5, and their X12/X22/X66 boards (total PVR of 18)
  
• Allows for withdrawal of all of their 09 plate Pulsars, and 1441-3 into reserve. 
  

Darlington:
12x B8RLE Evora:

• To replace their remaining 6x 09 plate Pulsars, and allow 1584-9 to transfer to Redcar. 
  
• This would fully cover their 11x single decker X26/66/75 boards (believe they currently have one X26 decker board).
  

Durham:
16x E400MMC:

• Withdrawal of remaining 6 B7TLs, 7510/11/12/4-7/21. 
  
• Allows 7523/39 to go to Darlington to replace 7518/9.
  

7609/10 coming in allows for the withdrawal of 1412/3 as the last two 09 plate Pulsars at Durham, and increasing the amount of deckers.

Blyth: 
21x E400MMC:

• Withdrawal of 7501-7/9.
  
• Transfer of 7556 to Darlington to replace 7520.
  
• Transfer of 1500-1505 to Ashington for the 57/57A.
  
• Transfer of 7522/4-6 to Ashington to replace 7557/8/60/62, for withdrawal. 
  
• 1463/1543 into reserve. 
  

In summary:

• All 09 plate Pulsars gone. 
  
• All 57/58/09 plate E400s gone (+7510).
  
• All B7TLs gone. 
  
• All Solos gone. 
  
• All non-MMC E200s gone. 
  
• Heavy duty single deckers onto the demanding routes at Redcar, and the 'X' routes at Stockton (plus the 5) and Darlington. 
  
• Increase in decker capacity at Durham. 
  
• Better X93/4 and P1/2 allocation. 
  

I think that shows the scale of investment needed to get the fleet into a decent condition, but also how it's absolutely going to need to be spread out rather than focusing just on one depot.

(12 Nov 2023, 1:57 am)mb134 wrote At risk of getting massively off topic and somehow getting onto a Coast Road suggestion, and I'm aware it's fantasy land, but just to show what you could do with an order of bang on 100 vehicles over the next couple of years and spreading the investment over (nearly) all the depots:

Redcar/Whitby: 
21x B8RLE Evora:

• 21 for the 18 X3/X4 boards. 
  
• The 14 Streetlites at Redcar currently would be moved to the 63 for the 13 boards on there. 
  
• 1584-1589 from Darlington, for the 62 and 81. 
  
• This would allow for the withdrawal of all Temsas and Pulsars currently at Redcar, and give an allocation of 41 single decks for a PVR of 37. 
  
• The 5x Redcar Pulsars would move to Durham, replacing the remaining E200s there. 
  

3x 8.9m E200 MMC: 

• To replace the remaining Solo's at Whitby.  
  

7x E400 MMC:

• To replace 7401-6 on the X93. 
  
• The 2 spares over the winter would allow for greater rotation, but also would mean that there is still 1 spare MMC in the summer vs the PVR. 
  
• 7401-6 would be retained for the X94 and P1/2, as 7424-6 and 7609/10 are now, and spread across Redcar/Darlington/Durham over the winter as required to cover for repaints/refurbishments/long term VORs. 
  
• 7424-6 withdrawn, 7609/10 sent to Durham. 
  

Stockton: 
20x B8RLE Evora: 

• For the 5, and their X12/X22/X66 boards (total PVR of 18)
  
• Allows for withdrawal of all of their 09 plate Pulsars, and 1441-3 into reserve. 
  

Darlington:
12x B8RLE Evora:

• To replace their remaining 6x 09 plate Pulsars, and allow 1584-9 to transfer to Redcar. 
  
• This would fully cover their 11x single decker X26/66/75 boards (believe they currently have one X26 decker board).
  

Durham:
16x E400MMC:

• Withdrawal of remaining 6 B7TLs, 7510/11/12/4-7/21. 
  
• Allows 7523/39 to go to Darlington to replace 7518/9.
  

7609/10 coming in allows for the withdrawal of 1412/3 as the last two 09 plate Pulsars at Durham, and increasing the amount of deckers.

Blyth: 
21x E400MMC:

• Withdrawal of 7501-7/9.
  
• Transfer of 7556 to Darlington to replace 7520.
  
• Transfer of 1500-1505 to Ashington for the 57/57A.
  
• Transfer of 7522/4-6 to Ashington to replace 7557/8/60/62, for withdrawal. 
  
• 1463/1543 into reserve. 
  

In summary:

• All 09 plate Pulsars gone. 
  
• All 57/58/09 plate E400s gone (+7510).
  
• All B7TLs gone. 
  
• All Solos gone. 
  
• All non-MMC E200s gone. 
  
• Heavy duty single deckers onto the demanding routes at Redcar, and the 'X' routes at Stockton (plus the 5) and Darlington. 
  
• Increase in decker capacity at Durham. 
  
• Better X93/4 and P1/2 allocation. 
  

I think that shows the scale of investment needed to get the fleet into a decent condition, but also how it's absolutely going to need to be spread out rather than focusing just on one depot.

Aye can't disagree with that too much, mind you've forgot the electrics at Blyth which I assume will see off some of that already though. Assuming it's going to display the 57/58 plates out of Northumbria and no doubt Pulsars beyond but that's a bit more unknown. 

Guess it'll depend whether they want to keep the newer Enviros at Blyth and use them on the X7/X8/X9 and displace the Pulsars instead of send them to Durham or wherever. 

Mind I don't really expect it tbh. Mind I'd be looking at displacing the 67 plate Streetlites out of Darlington. They're too short for the 1/5/7 so are a bit of a problem bus there currently.

(11 Nov 2023, 9:30 pm)Storx wrote Aye possible, does anyone actually know if there's anyone senior actually based there as usually the HQ rather than the registered address is their base which is the London office.

I think Barbour and Fishermen's Friends still have their HQ at both don't they? 

Yeah, well and it's always been there to be fair. Why move you're whole team for the sake of it - plus the rent is cheap aswell. I always find it odd that the First HQ is basically still just an office slammed on the side of their main depot in Aberdeen. Not even a nice shiny building in a business park or in the city centre. Suppose could pay for your staff not wasting money on offices in central London or Grey Street.

Yeah, that was my point. 
The historical and political locations are often used for PR, Marketing and other reasons.

To move may not mean much on paper, but has the potential to cause issues from other perspectives.

There's probably many others locally, such as Greggs who could quite easily move away from their traditional heartlands.
Then you've got S&N following the purchase by Heineken and the reputational damage caused to Newcastle Brown Ale by moving production elsewhere

(12 Nov 2023, 10:14 am)Andreos1 wrote Yeah, that was my point. 
The historical and political locations are often used for PR, Marketing and other reasons.

To move may not mean much on paper, but has the potential to cause issues from other perspectives.

There's probably many others locally, such as Greggs who could quite easily move away from their traditional heartlands.
Then you've got S&N following the purchase by Heineken and the reputational damage caused to Newcastle Brown Ale by moving production elsewhere

Yeah get you now, mind if GNE pull out. I'm sure moving the address away would be the least of their problems

Arguably ideal time to do it, double blow at the same time. I'm sure some people would be pleased to see them piss off atm, especially if you're one of those currently stranded in Houghton or wherever.

(11 Nov 2023, 11:08 pm)mb134 wrote Outside of those, you look at the 7 at Durham/Darlington, same with the 1 now the X1 has been cut. Wasn't the 6 also a route which needed deckers when converted to Sapphire? In terms of growth, you'd say even the X66/67 would be a logical route to put deckers onto if the growth on there continues - it's certainly more cost effective than increasing the frequency again. 

The amount of times the X93/4 were single deckers this year is laughable and given 7424-6 are still going you'd think there is no plan in place to replace them for next summer yet, where they'll likely make 1 attempt at an X94, die on a hill, spend 2 months VOR, then plod around on the 62 again.

(11 Nov 2023, 11:29 pm)Storx wrote Probably a bit of a debate about most routes at Durham, Ashington, Darlington and Blyth whether they should have full length single deckers. Most routes at Durham it's either too little capacity, or complete overkill.

As far as I'm aware pretty much everything is having problems. I know there's some very comfortable looking buses on the 5/X26/X27 in Darlington aswell when I've been down there and stuff like the 49, 56, 58 etc they're complete overkill.

(12 Nov 2023, 8:06 am)Storx wrote  
Mind I don't really expect it tbh. Mind I'd be looking at displacing the 67 plate Streetlites out of Darlington. They're too short for the 1/5/7 so are a bit of a problem bus there currently.

6 only really required double deckers because of interworking patterns with scholars, which is no longer required, 865 is now tagged onto the 8/8A at Darlington depot which requires a double decker to be allocated to one board.

I would like to see some investment into the the 1/5 & 7 at Darlington, those short Lites and Pulsars 1514-16 having 4 seats less than their counterparts can show at times, can't say I was thrilled at having to sit in the buggy bay of 1603 for 40 minutes on the 5 home the other evening. Could do with some more deckers at Darlington to cover the required decker boards and also allow more to be allocated to the 7 again as some runs at peak times really do struggle, not unheard of nowadays for people to be left behind in Durham around 16:00 as single deckers can't take the loads.

Think the only run at Durham that requires double deckers (minus the 7) is the X46 and even this is mainly at peak times, naturally to ensure this is met, there needs to be some spares which end up on all sorts of other routes, sometimes dependent on delays or just whatever's avaliable.

X93/X94 really needs something doing with it, the amount of single deckers on it this year was an embarrassment and makes the idea of using it again off putting. The changes of routes at Redcar recently does allow more flexibility into the allocation of double deckers between Redcar/Whitby, so would be nice if more could be left to linger around on the 62 when not required on the X93/X94. Have heard rumours that 7609/10 may not be going on the Whitby Park & Ride next year but unsure how true that is, if at all.

(12 Nov 2023, 1:04 pm)Jimmi wrote 6 only really required double deckers because of interworking patterns with scholars, which is no longer required, 865 is now tagged onto the 8/8A at Darlington depot which requires a double decker to be allocated to one board.

I would like to see some investment into the the 1/5 & 7 at Darlington, those short Lites and Pulsars 1514-16 having 4 seats less than their counterparts can show at times, can't say I was thrilled at having to sit in the buggy bay of 1603 for 40 minutes on the 5 home the other evening. Could do with some more deckers at Darlington to cover the required decker boards and also allow more to be allocated to the 7 again as some runs at peak times really do struggle, not unheard of nowadays for people to be left behind in Durham around 16:00 as single deckers can't take the loads.

Think the only run at Durham that requires double deckers (minus the 7) is the X46 and even this is mainly at peak times, naturally to ensure this is met, there needs to be some spares which end up on all sorts of other routes, sometimes dependent on delays or just whatever's avaliable.

X93/X94 really needs something doing with it, the amount of single deckers on it this year was an embarrassment and makes the idea of using it again off putting. The changes of routes at Redcar recently does allow more flexibility into the allocation of double deckers between Redcar/Whitby, so would be nice if more could be left to linger around on the 62 when not required on the X93/X94. Have heard rumours that 7609/10 may not be going on the Whitby Park & Ride next year but unsure how true that is, if at all.

Honestly agree with all that.

For the X93/X94, I think it's a route they need to be more creative with. Personally, I'd be looking at routes that have a christmas rush and see if they work them with that, the 64 at Durham is the route I'm going to pick here.

So you'd do something like 12 DD's and 5 SD's and the Summer months you have all the deckers allocated at Whitby doing the P&R, X93/X94, and the SD's at Durham when it's less quite due to the college being shut etc but then in the winter month flip the allocation. So most the deckers are at Durham and a mixed allocation of SD's and DD's are at Whitby. There's no need for a full allocation of Decker's in the winter and it would give them a chance for some recovery rather than being rat arsed on the X93 for 12 months of the year.

There might be other routes, you could look at other than the 64 which are similar. So you'd end up with something like

Summer:

Whitby: 10 DD + 0 SD
Durham: 2 DD + 5 SD

Winter:

Whitby: 4 DD + 5 SD
Durham: 8 DD + 0 SD

DD's and X4 SD's out over the season for heavy maintenance to get them up to spec for the next summer so we don't have a repeat of this time round. If there's further issues at Whitby then you take the 2 DD's from Durham and there's no repeat of the farce this year. Any spare deckers at Redcar are on the 62.

(12 Nov 2023, 8:06 am)Storx wrote Aye can't disagree with that too much, mind you've forgot the electrics at Blyth which I assume will see off some of that already though. Assuming it's going to display the 57/58 plates out of Northumbria and no doubt Pulsars beyond but that's a bit more unknown. 

Guess it'll depend whether they want to keep the newer Enviros at Blyth and use them on the X7/X8/X9 and displace the Pulsars instead of send them to Durham or wherever. 

Honestly I'm not expecting those electrics to arrive at any point soon, it seems like since the announcement in January there's been nothing else on them bar the charging points being installed at Blyth - but logically if they're redoing the depot anyway, it would make sense to install those? 

Thinking behind the newer E400s leaving Blyth was purely to displace the 58 plates at Ashington, it doesn't make sense to send them DB300s which would be oddballs and also needing replacing soon-ish. 

(12 Nov 2023, 8:06 am)Storx wrote Mind I don't really expect it tbh. Mind I'd be looking at displacing the 67 plate Streetlites out of Darlington. They're too short for the 1/5/7 so are a bit of a problem bus there currently.

(12 Nov 2023, 1:04 pm)Jimmi wrote I would like to see some investment into the the 1/5 & 7 at Darlington, those short Lites and Pulsars 1514-16 having 4 seats less than their counterparts can show at times, can't say I was thrilled at having to sit in the buggy bay of 1603 for 40 minutes on the 5 home the other evening. Could do with some more deckers at Darlington to cover the required decker boards and also allow more to be allocated to the 7 again as some runs at peak times really do struggle, not unheard of nowadays for people to be left behind in Durham around 16:00 as single deckers can't take the loads.

With the idea I'd posted, I think I'd intended the 67 plate Streetlites to end up on the 2 & 8 at Darlington. It would leave 5 spare, which would pretty much be the single deck/minibus spare allocation at the depot. I don't really know where else you send them, they're a pretty bad batch of buses reliability wise too, and so keeping them where they have always been might be the best solution?

You'd then have 1473/4/6/7/8 and 1507/8/9/11 to use on the 1, and then 1590-4 and 1514-6 and 1522 for the 7. Thinking was that the movement down of 7523/39/56 would be an improvement on reliability compared to 7518-20 so they'd actually be available. 

I suppose you could do a batch of E400 MMCs (say the 16x I'd put down for Durham) for Darlington to fully cover the 7, and the other boards which need deckers, then send 7534-8/40 to Durham (plus 7556) which would allow the B7TLs and 7510 to be withdrawn. 7609/10 would replace 7511/2. 

(12 Nov 2023, 1:04 pm)Jimmi wrote 6 only really required double deckers because of interworking patterns with scholars, which is no longer required, 865 is now tagged onto the 8/8A at Darlington depot which requires a double decker to be allocated to one board.

Think the only run at Durham that requires double deckers (minus the 7) is the X46 and even this is mainly at peak times, naturally to ensure this is met, there needs to be some spares which end up on all sorts of other routes, sometimes dependent on delays or just whatever's avaliable.

I think there's the X46, then also a few boards on the 6 & 22, and the ED2? Obviously at the moment the deckers there are very much end of life so I'd hazard a guess at them being allocated to the likes of the 43/64 is more a reflection of their inability to do a 6/22 rather than the need of them on the 43/64.

(12 Nov 2023, 1:27 pm)Storx wrote Honestly agree with all that.

For the X93/X94, I think it's a route they need to be more creative with. Personally, I'd be looking at routes that have a christmas rush and see if they work them with that, the 64 at Durham is the route I'm going to pick here.

So you'd do something like 12 DD's and 5 SD's and the Summer months you have all the deckers allocated at Whitby doing the P&R, X93/X94, and the SD's at Durham when it's less quite due to the college being shut etc but then in the winter month flip the allocation. So most the deckers are at Durham and a mixed allocation of SD's and DD's are at Whitby. There's no need for a full allocation of Decker's in the winter and it would give them a chance for some recovery rather than being rat arsed on the X93 for 12 months of the year.


DD's and X4 SD's out over the season for heavy maintenance to get them up to spec for the next summer so we don't have a repeat of this time round. If there's further issues at Whitby then you take the 2 DD's from Durham and there's no repeat of the farce this year. Any spare deckers at Redcar are on the 62.

I think it possibly makes more sense to keep them all at Redcar than doing constant swaps with Durham, who realistically aren't the right depot to be sending buses to which might need engineering attention. As well, the "summer season" now seems to stretch to the start of November, so you'd not be sending the deckers back to Durham until well after college has started back up again. 

Retaining 7401-6 would allow you to take some of the MMCs off the X93 over the winter for maintenance as required, and as Jimmi pointed out they can be used on the 62 now. It would give Redcar 13 deckers over the summer to play with, which is an additional 2 compared to this year, and the added bonus of 3 of them not being 7424-6. 

If you were to swap them, I'd say Darlington might be more realistic? Once the summer season is over, you could send some there (including 7401-6) for use on the X66/7 in the run up to Christmas, with the added bonus of being able to plan easy swaps between depots if needed.

(12 Nov 2023, 2:18 pm)mb134 wrote Honestly I'm not expecting those electrics to arrive at any point soon, it seems like since the announcement in January there's been nothing else on them bar the charging points being installed at Blyth - but logically if they're redoing the depot anyway, it would make sense to install those? 

I think they were talking about late 2024 or early 2025 for the arrival of the new electrics for the 43/44/45/47. Government funding never arrives quickly, but it is all confirmed and is happening.

(12 Nov 2023, 2:34 pm)mb134 wrote I think it possibly makes more sense to keep them all at Redcar than doing constant swaps with Durham, who realistically aren't the right depot to be sending buses to which might need engineering attention. As well, the "summer season" now seems to stretch to the start of November, so you'd not be sending the deckers back to Durham until well after college has started back up again. 

Retaining 7401-6 would allow you to take some of the MMCs off the X93 over the winter for maintenance as required, and as Jimmi pointed out they can be used on the 62 now. It would give Redcar 13 deckers over the summer to play with, which is an additional 2 compared to this year, and the added bonus of 3 of them not being 7424-6. 

If you were to swap them, I'd say Darlington might be more realistic? Once the summer season is over, you could send some there (including 7401-6) for use on the X66/7 in the run up to Christmas, with the added bonus of being able to plan easy swaps between depots if needed.

Aye see my thinking was more about actually getting them. I'm not sure the X93/X94 alone would have the power to get new buses. They basically had to beg to get the B9's for it and that was during a time we were seeing massive investment for the area.

If you bolted it to another route then it might stack up a bit more. The X66/X67 is a good shout mind to be fair, can't disagree with that. Having brand new buses on the 62 is a complete waste and would never stack up imo. I wouldn't be surprised if the X93 absolutely tanks money in the winter tbh.

Wonder if there ever might be scope to up the frequency but drop it down to singles instead, if you're trying to grow the route, there's clearly demand there if it's filling double deckers on an hourly freqency - how much better could it do at a 30 minute frequency. Might be able to attract more people to the area, even if it does come to a cost of scrapping the 5A and extending the 28 back to Lingdale which would mean Guisborough has 2 express services to Middlesbrough going again the flow at peak times to help it in the opposite direction.

Btw for the electrics, it seems most the similar bids on the ZEBRA that was announced at the same time, are turning up in Spring / Summer' 24 so I just assumed it would be roughly around then aswell. I know First and Transdev both in Leeds are getting there's at the time and Arriva Yorkshire have a bid under the same fund so I'd assume ours would come at the same time - save money ordering 60+ buses together rather than 2 smaller batches.

(12 Nov 2023, 2:47 pm)Shrek wrote I think they were talking about late 2024 or early 2025 for the arrival of the new electrics for the 43/44/45/47. Government funding never arrives quickly, but it is all confirmed and is happening.

Would 13x deckers be enough for the 43/44/45 given the half hourly Morpeth extension and increased layover?

Could be a case for Arriva to regain the 53/353 (if GNE bail out) and extend to Morpeth as no doubt they'll have room to come 2025.

(12 Nov 2023, 3:02 pm)L469 YVK wrote Would 13x deckers be enough for the 43/44/45 given the half hourly Morpeth extension and increased layover?

Could be a case for Arriva to regain the 53/353 (if GNE bail out) and extend to Morpeth as no doubt they'll have room to come 2025.

I don't think it would be anymore, sure the PVR for that group of services is 15 now (including the 47). 

Obviously funding was confirmed well before NCC decided to use BSIP money to improve the 43 to Morpeth.

(12 Nov 2023, 2:18 pm)mb134 wrote Honestly I'm not expecting those electrics to arrive at any point soon, it seems like since the announcement in January there's been nothing else on them bar the charging points being installed at Blyth - but logically if they're redoing the depot anyway, it would make sense to install those? 

Thinking behind the newer E400s leaving Blyth was purely to displace the 58 plates at Ashington, it doesn't make sense to send them DB300s which would be oddballs and also needing replacing soon-ish. 



With the idea I'd posted, I think I'd intended the 67 plate Streetlites to end up on the 2 & 8 at Darlington. It would leave 5 spare, which would pretty much be the single deck/minibus spare allocation at the depot. I don't really know where else you send them, they're a pretty bad batch of buses reliability wise too, and so keeping them where they have always been might be the best solution?

You'd then have 1473/4/6/7/8 and 1507/8/9/11 to use on the 1, and then 1590-4 and 1514-6 and 1522 for the 7. Thinking was that the movement down of 7523/39/56 would be an improvement on reliability compared to 7518-20 so they'd actually be available. 

I suppose you could do a batch of E400 MMCs (say the 16x I'd put down for Durham) for Darlington to fully cover the 7, and the other boards which need deckers, then send 7534-8/40 to Durham (plus 7556) which would allow the B7TLs and 7510 to be withdrawn. 7609/10 would replace 7511/2. 


I think there's the X46, then also a few boards on the 6 & 22, and the ED2? Obviously at the moment the deckers there are very much end of life so I'd hazard a guess at them being allocated to the likes of the 43/64 is more a reflection of their inability to do a 6/22 rather than the need of them on the 43/64.

Some runs on the 64 very much need double deck capacity but for most of the day,even when busy, the nature of the typical passenger and their journey (mainly older people and young families mostly lugging bags of shopping in one direction of their short hop journey) a full length single decker seems to be optimal.

I’m just glad the E200s are mostly off it because the aisle was often full of trolleys and bags due to lack of legroom

(12 Nov 2023, 2:51 pm)Storx wrote Aye see my thinking was more about actually getting them. I'm not sure the X93/X94 alone would have the power to get new buses. They basically had to beg to get the B9's for it and that was during a time we were seeing massive investment for the area.

Think it was more with them being 'dealer stock' plus getting good discounts and being known vehicles at the time to handle such route.

Shame they weren't replaced back when 5 year old as they would've done for the X14/X20 with Euro 6 mods....but they're a bit long in the tooth now for that sort of work! Probably had the hardest lives out of all the B9TLs in the North East closely followed by 6043-48.

(12 Nov 2023, 4:21 pm)L469 YVK wrote Think it was more with them being 'dealer stock' plus getting good discounts and being known vehicles at the time to handle such route.

Shame they weren't replaced back when 5 year old as they would've done for the X14/X20 with Euro 6 mods....but they're a bit long in the tooth now for that sort of work! Probably had the hardest lives out of all the B9TLs in the North East closely followed by 6043-48.

Aye it was, I believe. It always seems a hard bus to get investment and always seems to get hand me downs. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they end up gaining some Enviro 400 (MMC's) from Yorkshire when their 47 electrics turn up. Quite a few buses will be moving out from there. It's all one area now, prettty much.

Wouldn't be too surprised to see 7609/7610/7618/7619/7626/7627 all return to Blyth either and get the Pulsar's off the express work with E6 mods.

(12 Nov 2023, 5:05 pm)Storx wrote Aye it was, I believe. It always seems a hard bus to get investment and always seems to get hand me downs. Wouldn't be surprised at all if they end up gaining some Enviro 400 (MMC's) from Yorkshire when their 47 electrics turn up. Quite a few buses will be moving out from there. It's all one area now, prettty much.

Wouldn't be too surprised to see 7609/7610/7618/7619/7626/7627 all return to Blyth either and get the Pulsar's off the express work with E6 mods.

 sorry to say but 7609 10 won't be retune to Blyth

(13 Nov 2023, 5:25 pm)megansmith wrote  sorry to say but 7609 10 won't be retune to Blyth

Do you have a crystal ball? Nothing to say they won't return to Blyth if ever released off the P1/P2

(13 Nov 2023, 5:25 pm)megansmith wrote  sorry to say but 7609 10 won't be retune to Blyth

Can't see them staying at Redcar personally, I have a feeling with the new buses in Yorkshire, they'll send something newer to sort the mess out at Whitby and the B9's will take over their role and to get arid of the remaining B7's unless something comes first.

Yorkshire are also desperate for single deckers and we're desperate for deckers.

When they gain their 47 Deckers, after they've withdrawn their 25 older deckers, it would make logical sense to send some of the 22 newer deckers they've got up here in return for Pulsars or to withdraw the oldest deckers here. I highly doubt they'll be withdrawing DB300's in Yorkshire (the next oldest bus).

One logical move would be

Wakefield 11x B5LH -> Heckmondwick
Heckmondwick 11x DB300 -> Blyth
Blyth 11x Pulsar -> Wakefield
Wakefield 11x B7BLE -> Withdrawn

Simarly you could do the same with the 15 Plate Enviro 400's to Darlington either in return for their Pulsars to get arid of their Commanders down there.

(13 Nov 2023, 7:27 pm)Storx wrote Can't see them staying at Redcar personally, I have a feeling with the new buses in Yorkshire, they'll send something newer to sort the mess out at Whitby and the B9's will take over their role and to get arid of the remaining B7's unless something comes first.

Yorkshire are also desperate for single deckers and we're desperate for deckers.

When they gain their 47 Deckers, after they've withdrawn their 25 older deckers, it would make logical sense to send some of the 22 newer deckers they've got up here in return for Pulsars or to withdraw the oldest deckers here. I highly doubt they'll be withdrawing DB300's in Yorkshire (the next oldest bus).

One logical move would be

Wakefield 11x B5LH -> Heckmondwick
Heckmondwick 11x DB300 -> Blyth
Blyth 11x Pulsar -> Wakefield
Wakefield 11x B7BLE -> Withdrawn

Redcar are still having decker issues now 

Simarly you could do the same with the 15 Plate Enviro 400's to Darlington either in return for their Pulsars to get arid of their Commanders down there.

Arriva finance policy now dictates 18 years of life for any vehicles (depreciated over 15 years), so only buses that have hit that 18 years of age will be potentially replaced.

Not a popular decision internally to be honest! This may change now that iSquared will be calling the shots.

From what I've been told though, subject to major short term plan changes, the commercial and engineering team have been tasked with reviewing current DD allocations Vs where there are actually needed, which may see some permanent DD movements to places like Redcar or Darlington for example.

However, I am reliably informed that 7609/7610 will be running on Whitby P&R next year to put that rumour to bed. Also, a belief that all of the B7s currently in service in ANE are already planned to be replaced with new at some point in 2024 (subject to manufacturing lead in times).

(14 Nov 2023, 8:30 pm)RobinHood wrote Arriva finance policy now dictates 18 years of life for any vehicles (depreciated over 15 years), so only buses that have hit that 18 years of age will be potentially replaced.

Not a popular decision internally to be honest! This may change now that iSquared will be calling the shots.

From what I've been told though, subject to major short term plan changes, the commercial and engineering team have been tasked with reviewing current DD allocations Vs where there are actually needed, which may see some permanent DD movements to places like Redcar or Darlington for example.

However, I am reliably informed that 7609/7610 will be running on Whitby P&R next year to put that rumour to bed. Also, a belief that all of the B7s currently in service in ANE are already planned to be replaced with new at some point in 2024 (subject to manufacturing lead in times).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but older step entrance busses would usually last more than 20 years, with the caveat that they were far more robust and of heavier construction compared to a modern low floor bus. Having said that, if they give thier fleet some TLC inside and out, I'm sure many members the fleet could reach that age without issues.

If what you have heard is true, then hopefully it is a sign of better things to come, at least with getting routes allocated the right sort of busses, with more new vehicles in the pipeline.

(14 Nov 2023, 9:30 pm)solsburian wrote Please correct me if I'm wrong, but older step entrance busses would usually last more than 20 years, with the caveat that they were robust far more robust and of heavier construction compared to a modern low floor bus. Having said that, if they give thier fleet some TLC inside and out, I'm sure many members the fleet could reach that age without issues.

Modern buses are rattling to bits within weeks of hitting the road nowadays. You are right, with the correct level of TLC any bus should reach 20+ years, most operators will work to around 15-18 years life expectancy. After this time, vehicle is normally fully depreciated.

Some will live on, but a major until failure will usually mean withdrawal.

Some operators use fully depreciated vehicles on school work, as the prices are usually very close and it can be the difference in winning or not.

(14 Nov 2023, 8:30 pm)RobinHood wrote Arriva finance policy now dictates 18 years of life for any vehicles (depreciated over 15 years), so only buses that have hit that 18 years of age will be potentially replaced.

Not a popular decision internally to be honest! This may change now that iSquared will be calling the shots.

From what I've been told though, subject to major short term plan changes, the commercial and engineering team have been tasked with reviewing current DD allocations Vs where there are actually needed, which may see some permanent DD movements to places like Redcar or Darlington for example.

However, I am reliably informed that 7609/7610 will be running on Whitby P&R next year to put that rumour to bed. Also, a belief that all of the B7s currently in service in ANE are already planned to be replaced with new at some point in 2024 (subject to manufacturing lead in times).

I'm assuming the change under DB, is more to the point that someone has realised there's absolutely tonnes of buses coming up in the next 3 years and to put it simply it's kicking the rather large can down the road.

Interesting to see what the DD plans, as I can't think of many routes in Northumbria with decker's on which don't need the deckers at all.

(14 Nov 2023, 9:39 pm)RobinHood wrote Modern buses are rattling to bits within weeks of hitting the road nowadays. You are right, with the correct level of TLC any bus should reach 20+ years, most operators will work to around 15-18 years life expectancy. After this time, vehicle is normally fully depreciated.

Some will live on, but a major until failure will usually mean withdrawal.

Some operators use fully depreciated vehicles on school work, as the prices are usually very close and it can be the difference in winning or not.

I agree with that, even Northumbrias's newest E400sMMCs have their squeaks, and I don't think any low floor bus has been re-bodied, whereas that was not unheard of for old high floor designs. from a layman's view, I guess the new generation of busses need more maintenance due their cheaper (and lighter) bodywork, and the fact the chassis are more complex and closer to the ground. Having said that, the East Lancs European and Cityzern Scania bodywork went downhill almost from new. 

(14 Nov 2023, 10:07 pm)Storx wrote I'm assuming the change under DB, is more to the point that someone has realised there's absolutely tonnes of buses coming up in the next 3 years and to put it simply it's kicking the rather large can down the road.

Interesting to see what the DD plans, as I can't think of many routes in Northumbria with decker's on which don't need the deckers at all.

There is probably only a handful Northumbria routes that don't warrant a double decker,, perhaps exclusively Ashington's 1, 2, 57/57a, 434, and some 35 runs.

(14 Nov 2023, 10:21 pm)solsburian wrote There is probably only a handful Northumbria routes that don't warrant a double decker,, perhaps exclusively Ashington's 1, 2, 57/57a, 434, and some 35 runs.

I'd agree. 

The 1 & 2 are more than comfortable with single deckers, excluding the one 1 board which gets slammed with college students. The 57/A would be more than fine with saloons, obviously the 434 is never going to need more than a minibus. 

All Morpeth services, bar the X16, require deckers. The X14 has now been tied in with school journeys on all three boards, and the X15/18 have always required them. I think there's still a board on the X20 which can get away with a single decker, but they're all very busy to town now and the last time I travelled on a single decker on it people were left at North Seaton. 

The X21/22 require them at peaks in particular, all boards I see into town on a morning are packed, and same with the ones I see leaving in an evening. There's realistically the boards which start as the 0734 X22 (though that gets pretty busy on the 1650 X22) and the 0909 X22 which could be done with a single decker, at least from what I've seen. 

With the Blyth ones I struggle to see any routes which could be fully single deck, even now when single decks are allocated to the X9/10/11 in the morning they're always a standing load into Newcastle. It's similar with the 43/44/45 on most boards, and of course now some are tied onto school work which require deckers. 

It's all well and good saying services don't need deckers during the day, for instance, but people will quickly get fed up of standing on a bus every morning for 20+ minutes. I'd wager that the services in ADC which are being looked at for deckers will be similar - I get that the 7 for example should be, but deckers were literally bought for that and growth on other services has taken them away by the looks of it. The answer should be more deckers in total, not robbing Peter to pay Paul. Redcar needing them is funny, they can barely look after the ones they currently have!

(14 Nov 2023, 11:20 pm)mb134 wrote I'd agree. 

The 1 & 2 are more than comfortable with single deckers, excluding the one 1 board which gets slammed with college students. The 57/A would be more than fine with saloons, obviously the 434 is never going to need more than a minibus. 

All Morpeth services, bar the X16, require deckers. The X14 has now been tied in with school journeys on all three boards, and the X15/18 have always required them. I think there's still a board on the X20 which can get away with a single decker, but they're all very busy to town now and the last time I travelled on a single decker on it people were left at North Seaton. 

The X21/22 require them at peaks in particular, all boards I see into town on a morning are packed, and same with the ones I see leaving in an evening. There's realistically the boards which start as the 0734 X22 (though that gets pretty busy on the 1650 X22) and the 0909 X22 which could be done with a single decker, at least from what I've seen. 

With the Blyth ones I struggle to see any routes which could be fully single deck, even now when single decks are allocated to the X9/10/11 in the morning they're always a standing load into Newcastle. It's similar with the 43/44/45 on most boards, and of course now some are tied onto school work which require deckers. 

It's all well and good saying services don't need deckers during the day, for instance, but people will quickly get fed up of standing on a bus every morning for 20+ minutes. I'd wager that the services in ADC which are being looked at for deckers will be similar - I get that the 7 for example should be, but deckers were literally bought for that and growth on other services has taken them away by the looks of it. The answer should be more deckers in total, not robbing Peter to pay Paul. Redcar needing them is funny, they can barely look after the ones they currently have!

Can't disagree with that tbh.

Btw, does this involve Yorkshire aswell, since everything is connected? There seems to be an awful number of deckers down there doing routes which seem to be mostly single decker, yet we have too many single deckers up here doing routes that should be deckers. Maybe that might be the swaps instead? Rather than internally within the North East.

They've been taking Pulsar's from here, every chance they can get one.

(15 Nov 2023, 6:55 pm)Storx wrote Can't disagree with that tbh.

Btw, does this involve Yorkshire aswell, since everything is connected? There seems to be an awful number of deckers down there doing routes which seem to be mostly single decker, yet we have too many single deckers up here doing routes that should be deckers. Maybe that might be the swaps instead? Rather than internally within the North East.

They've been taking Pulsar's from here, every chance they can get one.

Funnily enough I saw a couple of Arriva single deckers heading east on the A69 just outside of Hexham today.  Obviously not coming from Yorkshire but seemed to be heading into the Northumbria fold

(15 Nov 2023, 7:06 pm)Bazza wrote Funnily enough I saw a couple of Arriva single deckers heading east on the A69 just outside of Hexham today.  Obviously not coming from Yorkshire but seemed to be heading into the Northumbria fold

Strange, wonder where they're coming from, unless something has been for repaint at Blackburn? But don't think they have. Haven't heard about anything coming up and looking at the Arriva North West / Merseyside fleets there doesn't seem to be anything leaving.

7610 has transferred to Belmont and is on the 64 today (but isn't tracking on bustimes for some reason). 7609 is still tracking on the X93.