Is it just me or is this an increasing issue, whenever I travel with my mam who is a wheelchair user she never used to get refused unless there was another wheelchair on which is fair. Lately she’s been getting refused when there’s people with prams or buggy’s or as one driver said “the ramps not working” (this was on a 60 streetlite mind). I’ve had my fair share of quarrels with them now over the wheelchair passengers having priority by law and telling them to check the stickers in their own bus. I don’t know if this is due to improper training, lack of education, or full on ignorance and laziness. 

A quick question too, obviously the X10 E400s have 2 wheelchair spaces, one in the usual space and one on the other side, with a backing, and an accessible stop button. We have been refused on these a couple of times when there’s been a wheelchair user, already on and I’ve argued with the driver that there is two spaces. Im then being shown the capacity sticker on the front of the bus saying they can carry 1 wheelchair, if that’s the case why is there two? It’s misleading surely.

Sorry for ranting but i think it’s ridiculous.

Buggies and prams using the space can be frustrating. The driver can only request that those users vacate the space. They cannot force it. You are right, wheelchair users do have priority, hence the driver is required under law to request the space be vacated and explain why, but if passengers do refuse, then the driver isn't breaking the law as they have done everything they reasonably can. The ramp not working is frankly not acceptable either way.

I'm pretty sure that almost all buses only have one actual identifed wheelchair space. The space on the other side can, in theory, accommodate another wheelchair user on most vehicles, but it doesn't have the supports and accessibility to the polls etc, so many drivers will not accept a wheelchair in this section, simply on the grounds of safety. After all, in the event of an accident, a wheelchair user who is hurt whist travelling in this location, could have a liability claim.

(29 Jun 2024, 4:42 pm)RobinHood wrote Buggies and prams using the space can be frustrating. The driver can only request that those users vacate the space. They cannot force it. You are right, wheelchair users do have priority, hence the driver is required under law to request the space be vacated and explain why, but if passengers do refuse, then the driver isn't breaking the law as they have done everything they reasonably can. The ramp not working is frankly not acceptable either way.

I'm pretty sure that almost all buses only have one actual identifed wheelchair space. The space on the other side can, in theory, accommodate another wheelchair user on most vehicles, but it doesn't have the supports and accessibility to the polls etc, so many drivers will not accept a wheelchair in this section, simply on the grounds of safety. After all, in the event of an accident, a wheelchair user who is hurt whist travelling in this location, could have a liability claim.

The four E400s new for the X84/X85 (and now on the X10) have two wheelchair bays (with the necessary poles and backrests etc in place) - see: https://flic.kr/p/2ke1ka1

It’s probably a communication issue for drivers suggesting just one wheelchair is permitted. I seem to see a lot of drivers on the X10 these days, so perhaps the rota isn’t as ‘exclusive’ as it once was.

Easiest way to deal with illegitimate 'refusals' on a service (whether it be ticketing / wheelchair based) is to simply refuse to get off the bus until the driver takes action (either contacting SDC / Police).

Will cause huge incovenience to GNE (or any operator) who will then suffer dead mileage, late running as a result.

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/first...-v-paulley

Here's the ruling when Doug Paulley and First went head to head in the court room. 
I'm sure there was a 'conversation' between him and Stagecoach at one point too.

(29 Jun 2024, 4:42 pm)RobinHood wrote Buggies and prams using the space can be frustrating. The driver can only request that those users vacate the space. They cannot force it. You are right, wheelchair users do have priority, hence the driver is required under law to request the space be vacated and explain why, but if passengers do refuse, then the driver isn't breaking the law as they have done everything they reasonably can. The ramp not working is frankly not acceptable either way.

I'm pretty sure that almost all buses only have one actual identifed wheelchair space. The space on the other side can, in theory, accommodate another wheelchair user on most vehicles, but it doesn't have the supports and accessibility to the polls etc, so many drivers will not accept a wheelchair in this section, simply on the grounds of safety. After all, in the event of an accident, a wheelchair user who is hurt whist travelling in this location, could have a liability claim.

Oh absolutely, in this case it would be nice if the drivers even asked. They open the doors don’t even get out the cab or say anything to the non wheelchair users and refuse my mam. One driver even went as far to not open the doors and wave his finger which i thought was extremely rude.

Please don't judge all drivers the same, actually only a small minority of drivers are rude .
I have actually witnessed a wheelchair users snapping at a driver before he could even move his arm to open the cab door to assist. the wheelchair user demanded he MOVED the passenger, who had a large pram and that she ( wheelchair user)had priority to the fact that the passenger would have to get off and get the next bus.

While I'm not a wheelchair user, or regularly get on the bus with a wheelchair, I think in the past4-6 years ive seen 2 drivers stop someone from getting on the bus, one was the 47 (with the old Red Kite Deckers as the ramp was broke), and the other one was a Laser 35 as the ramp had broke (electric Mercedes) 

Any other time the drivers have been more than happy, even when some users say they dont need the ramp the drivers insist on putting it out

I understand that and i’m not saying this is all drivers or that this happens every time, majority of drivers are nice, welcoming and more than happy to let us on but my point is that it seems to be an increasing issue i’d like to say it’s at least 1 out of 4 bus journeys it happens and considering we travel on the bus almost daily that is quite a bit and every time, in regards to prams etc the driver has not bothered to even get out of the cab or explain to the non wheelchair users and just refused us.

Do they not operate the wheelchair guarantee anymore?

Which I assume is one of the commercial team piggybacking you to destination?

(29 Jun 2024, 4:42 pm)RobinHood wrote The ramp not working is frankly not acceptable either way.

Happy to be corrected but, if they knew it was broken before service, wouldn't this just be outright illegal and breaching PSVAR? Heck if I'm right the bus should be replaced asap.

It's legally no different to sticking a bus with steps on really.

Anyone confirm on this as no doubt it's one of those which has some cop out clause.

Aren't most of the ramps manual anyway? I could be missing something but I'm struggling to think of a reason why they would be broken.

Maybe the driver couldn't be bothered to get out and extend it, wouldn't be shocked if that was the case.

(01 Jul 2024, 11:46 am)Thomas12 wrote Aren't most of the ramps manual anyway? I could be missing something but I'm struggling to think of a reason why they would be broken.

Maybe the driver couldn't be bothered to get out and extend it, wouldn't be shocked if that was the case.

Broken toggle or a snapped hinge. 

The driver isn't going to refuse to get out and extend it because they 'couldn't be bothered' as that's pretty much a guaranteed disciplinary.

I had a Versa once on the 35 part way through my shift (Green Terrace I believe). Stopped at the stop, lowered the step unfolded the ramp which decided to detach itself from the bus completely as the hinges were rusted. This has the effect on the vehicle no longed being driveable (won't select gear) and it had to roll into the gap in front of the bus stop.

When we had dual door deckers at Deptford, the ramp and centre doors (even though not for service use) had to be checked on a first use check and defects reported. Same as the coaches we used on scholars, ramps were part of the first use check.

I think the issue of asking people to move, which I did, is slightly impeded by the 'you must not put yourself in danger' policy. Always make sure something is in place before driving on, whether that be notifying SDC or the passenger agreeing to wait for the next bus (showing the bus on the app). Simple customer service.

I remember when Covid kicked off and seats were taped up and I was on the 700 and the wheelchair bay had been taped up and I had a wheelchair wanting to board at the Hospital. I ripped the tape down allowing them to board (it was 'at my risk as the wheelchair would have been next to me' - genuine reason given to me by a manager).

(30 Jun 2024, 11:19 pm)Ambassador wrote Do they not operate the wheelchair guarantee anymore?

Which I assume is one of the commercial team piggybacking you to destination?

It's part of the charter: https://www.northeast-ca.gov.uk/passengercharter

"An easy access guarantee: a taxi will be provided or cost covered where a bus is unable to accommodate a customer with a disability, who would usually be accommodated."

(01 Jul 2024, 11:55 am)mb134 wrote Broken toggle or a snapped hinge. 

The driver isn't going to refuse to get out and extend it because they 'couldn't be bothered' as that's pretty much a guaranteed disciplinary.

You’d be surprised, a lot of the times its a case of looking in the mirror, seeing a pushchair and saying no. 

Unfortunately not a lot of people want to cause bother and get on top of it so it slides as the higher ups are going to be none the wiser.

(30 Jun 2024, 11:19 pm)Ambassador wrote Do they not operate the wheelchair guarantee anymore?

Which I assume is one of the commercial team piggybacking you to destination?

Funnily enough my mum tried to use the 94 once and it was an old London E400 with the old electric ramp still in place just it wouldn't work so we emailed to complain and then they responded saying due to the high frequency (30 minutes each) by the time they would have booked a taxi a new bus would be there so actually the Taxi Guarantee is a bit of a scam really...

Taxi guarantee only takes you bus stop to bus stop (so pick up from bus stop where you are and bus stop where you would get off).

Hmm not from my experience as I said in another thread?

(01 Jul 2024, 4:42 pm)morritt89 wrote Taxi guarantee only takes you bus stop to bus stop (so pick up from bus stop where you are and bus stop where you would get off).

Where does it say that, out of interest? In my opinion, in a range of circumstances, that could result in indirectly discriminating against the wheelchair user.

It's what we were told in training. The taxi was 'last resort' as services were deemed to be frequent enough. I'm sure there was also a rule of if a taxi was arranged then the people waiting were not allowed to use any other passing service and had to wait for the arranged taxi. I may still have the booklet somewhere with all the rules in but unsure. It may also have been updated since I did my induction.

I don't know what taxi company they used and never once had to call SDC and ask for one.

In practice I would always get out of my cab and ask someone to move, perhaps I was in the minority - the only exception would be if there was a full size pushchair (ie a big silver cross thing or similar), or if there was already another adult or juvenile buggy there (they were few and far between to be honest). I was never one for tolerating granny barrows or walkers as an excuse to not move.

In terms of ramps not working - it harks back to the electric ramp days mostly where sometimes if you'd clattered the front corner on a sweep or similar, even if it had checked out on first use check the things were often so tempremantal it would only come out so far and then pop back in - frustrating to say the least. For broken ramp hinges - should never leave the depot - it's a first use check PG9, and too be honest you can hear a failing hinge on the flip ramps as it's more of dull thud rather than a bouncy spring. Solo SRs were prone to the bonding failing on the edge and as soon as that started to happen it's a full ramp replacement. Some routes are not suited to middle door ramps as they are just not safe to deploy with the infrastructure.

Until the 2 spaces were implemented on the enviros I always though about what if two friends who were in wheelchairs wanted to travel together - never came across it in my time, but I always thought about what if.

(02 Jul 2024, 3:34 pm)xpm wrote In practice I would always get out of my cab and ask someone to move, perhaps I was in the minority - the only exception would be if there was a full size pushchair (ie a big silver cross thing or similar), or if there was already another adult or juvenile buggy there (they were few and far between to be honest).  I was never one for tolerating granny barrows or walkers as an excuse to not move.

In terms of ramps not working - it harks back to the electric ramp days mostly where sometimes if you'd clattered the front corner on a sweep or similar, even if it had checked out on first use check the things were often so tempremantal it would only come out so far and then pop back in - frustrating to say the least.  For broken ramp hinges - should never leave the depot - it's a first use check PG9, and too be honest you can hear a failing hinge on the flip ramps as it's more of dull thud rather than a bouncy spring.  Solo SRs were prone to the bonding failing on the edge and as soon as that started to happen it's a full ramp replacement.  Some routes are not suited to middle door ramps as they are just not safe to deploy with the infrastructure.

Until the 2 spaces were implemented on the enviros I always though about what if two friends who were in wheelchairs wanted to travel together - never came across it in my time, but I always thought about what if.

Today on the 29 two wheelchairs got on a Streetlite and they both got on no problems I suppose it depends on the driver, some would not allow that but both had no troubles...

(02 Jul 2024, 6:26 pm)There is only one d9817362 wrote Today on the 29 two wheelchairs got on a Streetlite and they both got on no problems I suppose it depends on the driver, some would not allow that but both had no troubles...

There is only one wheelchair bay ,so by company policy this should not have been allowed, 
The wheelchair has to be placed rear facing with the back of the chair up against the rest. The pole is also in place by the wheelchair bay to stop the chair from tipping, so if another wheelchair is placed in the buggy bay opposite there is no support safety in place

(02 Jul 2024, 3:34 pm)xpm wrote Until the 2 spaces were implemented on the enviros I always though about what if two friends who were in wheelchairs wanted to travel together - never came across it in my time, but I always thought about what if.

Havent seen them for a while but there's 2 wheelchairs used to get on at Witherwack, one of them gets out and hobbles on and one of the carers folds the chair up.