(27 Mar 2014, 2:29 pm)robisdave wrote So given that the Sapphire upgrade for services 5/5a etc is scheduled for 20th July how's this gonna work when we don't have the new fleets?

Sure they'll cobble together some Prestiges and MPDS! Maybe that's why 1711 has had its repaint!

The mind boggles really but think Arriva will know what their doing?

(27 Mar 2014, 2:33 pm)robisdave wrote The mind boggles really but think Arriva will know what their doing?

Mmmmmmm.....

Love it! So that's where all the withdrawn Prestiges have been hiding? Kept that we'll quiet!

(27 Mar 2014, 2:26 pm)Roland Pratt wrote So Arriva excels itself again. Launches the Sapphire services before the buses are ready! (And even knowing 4 months beforehand they're not going to be ready!!)

The vehicles will enter service a week later! All that will take place on 20th July for the service is the start of the 'behind the scenes' stuff (ie the dedicated rota, splitting the Sunday 5/28Bs etc)

(27 Mar 2014, 2:29 pm)robisdave wrote So given that the Sapphire upgrade for services 5/5a etc is scheduled for 20th July how's this gonna work when we don't have the new fleets?

(27 Mar 2014, 2:33 pm)Roland Pratt wrote Sure they'll cobble together some Prestiges and MPDS! Maybe that's why 1711 has had its repaint!

The upgrade starts 28th July - for the first week of the 'behind the scenes' upgrade, the current stock (Pulsars and the OmniCitys) will remain in use.

(27 Mar 2014, 2:37 pm)Kuyoyo wrote The vehicles will enter service a week later! All that will take place on 20th July for the service is the start of the 'behind the scenes' stuff (ie the dedicated rota, splitting the Sunday 5/28Bs etc)

No definite day for the Sapphire launch, but I very much doubt it will be 27th July so not sure where you got that from. All the vehicles won't be delivered by then - more likely to be mid August.
We will have all of the "behind the scenes stuff" implemented earlier so that we know everything works before we launch the new brand publically.
Redcar's Streetlites are due after Stockton's and they may wait to launch both of them in one go given there's only one team at UK Bus working on it.
11 launches to do around the country during 3 months, should prove interesting!

Apologies for the quips people but interesting to read just what is happening and what it takes to deliver these services, I'm sure people are going to be impressed, just hope that the planners have done what I talked about earlier and provided realistic timetables / running times for these services.

I wonder if it would be worthwile for the 51 and 54 to swap vehicles? With 2 X Pulsars being used on the 51, and 4 X Solos on the 54? The spare Pulsars would be used on the 55 in place of 2 X Solos.

(27 Mar 2014, 2:52 pm)robisdave wrote Apologies for the quips people but interesting to read just what is happening and what it takes to deliver these services, I'm sure people are going to be impressed, just hope that the planners have done what I talked about earlier and provided realistic timetables / running times for these services.

If anything the running times allow a bit of slack. I don't know what the X4 is like as I don't do them but the times beyond Loftus haven't changed and they were really slack when we went to Whitby! The problems are more down to Redcar's reliability engineering wise than timekeeping. Their drivers make the best of a bad job and I really feel for them as it must be awful trying to keep going sometimes!

The 5/5A have more than enough time too, especially up the top end from Guisborough through to Brotton, Loftus and Easington. Now Stockton are running the whole lot (almost) it is really starting to take off too, I was amazed at the load I had on the 0610 from Easington this morning, almost a full bus by Middlesbrough! Wasn't expecting that...

Poor Whitby struggled on with a terrible allocation from Redcar and did as best as they could in the situation they found themselves. To be fair they were usually pretty good on the 5s, even if some of the vehicles were questionable (MPDs were regular...).

The vehicles are due to be delivered from July onwards so I'd say its quite likely that the launches will be more towards September. There is a specific team launching all of the Sapphire services around the UK I am told, but I don't really know what they do exactly. I am guessing help with marketing and things like that, as well as the actual physical launches. As I said there are 11 to be done around the UK including the 3 here in the North East.

I've heard a few "comments" about Redcars engineering team and can agree, could be interesting to be a fly on the wall at ' roll out' some mornings? To give them some credit though they can only do what they can with what they've got (vehicles) and given (budget) I did hear once, don't know how reliable this mind, that Stocktons budget was far superior to Redcars in terms of engineering?
With regard to the running times I can go along with all you say; the first few days after the changes we had 5/5a drivers laying over in various laybys, running card in hand but now whilst this still happens some services seem to get well down on time? Maybe it's due to the loadings as you say? Guess we'll never get perfection?

(27 Mar 2014, 3:19 pm)robisdave wrote I've heard a few "comments" about Redcars engineering team and can agree, could be interesting to be a fly on the wall at ' roll out' some mornings? To give them some credit though they can only do what they can with what they've got (vehicles) and given (budget) I did hear once, don't know how reliable this mind, that Stocktons budget was far superior to Redcars in terms of engineering?
With regard to the running times I can go along with all you say; the first few days after the changes we had 5/5a drivers laying over in various laybys, running card in hand but now whilst this still happens some services seem to get well down on time? Maybe it's due to the loadings as you say? Guess we'll never get perfection?

Not sure on engineering budgets but Stockton looks after some of the oldest fleet members in the whole country with 15 Prestiges and the Cadets are still in decent condition for their age. Redcar's engineering ability has been questionable for years (anyone remember the pink and green Metroriders in the Steve Noble years!?) but things do seem to be improving slowly with new management being installed recently too.

As for the 5/5a's timings, there are a few times during the day where you can hit crazy traffic on Cargo Fleet Lane which can knock you back by 5 or 10 mins if you hit North Ormesby badly too. Especially around school time. Some of them have extra running time to try to combat this (see some of the morning arrivals into Middlesbrough around 0830-0900).

Others get hit by crazy loadings at various points in the journey, especially due to school children, the 0745 service 5 out of Middlesbrough gets all of the Nunthorpe kids for example (these used to be spread between the 0730 and 0745...) and coming the other way it's the 1525 into Mbro that gets them all. Another similar issue exists with the Laurence Jackson lot from Brotton and Skelton, if you lose 5 mins loading them all then it knocks you back for an hour or so.

Timings seem slacker during the middle of the day because the loadings are noticeably lower than at peak times but it will be interesting to see how the advent of Sapphire will affects this. I've driven some of the peak time services in and out of Middlesbrough and had plenty of standing passengers so I'm not convinced there is much room for growth at these times, and as you can't really increase the capacity on the 5/5a (due to low bridges at North Skelton and Brotton) then Arriva may have to look at increasing the frequency at these times, sort of similar to how the X17 (which replaced the X6) operates.

Darlington Dart 1646 has been repainted.

Trying to place, or is 'forget', the Metroriders? I can recall Loftus having them for their town routes and occasional sorties on the longer routes. Interesting that there is a new management team in at Redcar; it's had problems for years ! Just speak to some of the older drivers.
I didn't know there are 15 Prestiges at Stockton? Can bring half a dozen to recall but then I'm struggling? Hope someone is going to take one into preservation?
And whatever you do with running times, for whatever service, there are going to be issues aren't there? It is interesting to read what you say, it's sometimes useful to be able to answer the critics!!

(27 Mar 2014, 4:54 pm)robisdave wrote Trying to place, or is 'forget', the Metroriders? I can recall Loftus having them for their town routes and occasional sorties on the longer routes. Interesting that there is a new management team in at Redcar; it's had problems for years ! Just speak to some of the older drivers.
I didn't know there are 15 Prestiges at Stockton? Can bring half a dozen to recall but then I'm struggling? Hope someone is going to take one into preservation?
And whatever you do with running times, for whatever service, there are going to be issues aren't there? It is interesting to read what you say, it's sometimes useful to be able to answer the critics!!

MOD Note: I've moved the discussion into the "Latest" thread as it really belongs in here...

Yeah we've got 4001/06/07/30/37/38/39/40/43/45/46/48/62/63/69 at Stockton, though 4045 is technically reserve and should be withdrawn for good soon...

I remember the green and pink loan Metroriders turning up on the 64 etc in Middlesbrough quite often. The route branding looked rather out of place to say the least!

You're right in saying that you can't solve every issue but it does help if we get issues reported - indeed I had a say in the new times for the evening 5's as they used to be far too slack (2 hours 15 to do a round trip) - we now have it down to 2 hours and it cycles with 2 buses, with the same times all night which is much better for familiarity for passengers and drivers alike, not to mention the quicker journey times with less sitting about... frustrating when you just want to get home.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:18 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/teesclev2014

Could have sworn I posted this earlier on re survey in East Cleveland area.

You did. tyresmoke moved the post (and the replies which followed) to the Latest thread, as you placed it in the Rare & Odd Workings thread.

(27 Mar 2014, 2:01 pm)Kuyoyo wrote The Teesside and East Cleveland Changes were consulted on last year in regards to the changes (but not how Go North East did it, rather than 'these are our plans' more 'where do you most travel/routes you mainly use') and this is a 'what do you think of what we did/how can we improve the services further' one, ahead of the next planned change on Sunday 20th July (the day the 'Sapphire' upgrade comes into effect on the 5/5a, X3/X3a and X4/4, although as I understand it not the date the Streetlites enter service)

So surely then to all intents and purposes the Sapphire launch will be the 27th, and the new vehicles WILL be ready? The average man in the street won't give a fig that the 5 and 28B have been split on the rtcs!

(27 Mar 2014, 5:25 pm)Dan wrote You did. tyresmoke moved the post (and the replies which followed) to the Latest thread, as you placed it in the Rare & Odd Workings thread.

Whoops.
Cracking up, just not as much as initially thought. Removed the second post.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:33 pm)Roland Pratt wrote So surely then to all intents and purposes the Sapphire launch will be the 27th, and the new vehicles WILL be ready? The average man in the street won't give a fig that the 5 and 28B have been split on the rtcs!

I think you've missed a few posts since mine - I had my dates mixed up. The background details start in late July (rotas and board changes) with the vehicles arriving from Ireland from late July and the full launch starting in late summer.

As for the 5/28b, you have to re-arrange things as on the present timetables, the Sunday 5s and 28Bs can't run stand-alone.

(27 Mar 2014, 1:57 pm)Dan wrote Isn't that what Go North East call a 'customer consultation' carried out before each set of major network changes?

Suppose it depends how it is done and how the survey is worded - coupled with how many people actually see the survey.

We're all aware of how GNE have changed their consultation, with the changes to the 1/24 discussed at length at the time (paper based consultations being 'delivered' by hand, posters on the GNE fb page living in the area stating they had never received a survey and a small percentage being returned).

ANE obviously want to see what the public want, prior to making suggestions, rather than planning changes to suit the company.
Imagine all the work that goes into planning routes, timings, pvr's etc - for the public to turn around and state they don't like the changes or for it not to be a success?
North Sunderland, the last lot of Houghton changes with the m1, 20 and 71.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:38 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Suppose it depends how it is done and how the survey is worded - coupled with how many people actually see the survey.

We're all aware of how GNE have changed their consultation, with the changes to the 1/24 discussed at length at the time (paper based consultations being 'delivered' by hand, posters on the GNE fb page living in the area stating they had never received a survey and a small percentage being returned).

ANE obviously want to see what the public want, prior to making suggestions, rather than planning changes to suit the company.
Imagine all the work that goes into planning routes, timings, pvr's etc - for the public to turn around and state they don't like the changes or for it not to be a success?
North Sunderland, the last lot of Houghton changes with the m1, 20 and 71.

I moved to Monkwearmouth at the time of the most recent North Sunderland consultation, and almost every bus I was on in that time (of the services affected) were fully stocked with consultation leaflets. The Nexus Travel Shop had copies of the leaflets, and on one occasion I saw a man (can't remember if he was a Nexus employee or a GNE employee, though I'd assume the latter) was handing out said leaflets at Park Lane.

The process should have been the same for the 1/24 consultation. There should have been plenty of opportunities for people to pick a leaflet up, so I really can't explain why people living in the area didn't ever receive a copy of the consultation.

As for a small percentage being returned - the same could be said about people who vote in General Elections. A lot of people will criticise the Government for how the country is run, but I suspect a large number of those people will be those who didn't bother voting...

If the majority of customers don't like a set of proposals, Go North East simply cannot go ahead with them - no matter how much work has gone into designing the proposals. The reason why the online presence was removed for these consultations was to avoid 'spoof responses' - people who barely use the services having a say on something happening which will affect the people who do use the services regularly, it's just not fair. I personally haven't filled out the ANE survey because I don't ever use the services in the consultation, so I have no idea what questions further into the survey say - but the company must have a rough idea of what they want to change without first consulting customers.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:38 pm)Andreos Constantopolous wrote ANE obviously want to see what the public want, prior to making suggestions, rather than planning changes to suit the company.
Imagine all the work that goes into planning routes, timings, pvr's etc - for the public to turn around and state they don't like the changes or for it not to be a success?
North Sunderland, the last lot of Houghton changes with the m1, 20 and 71.

The initial consultation was around travel habits which the network was then designed around (hence the last X17 on a morning arriving in Middlesbrough at 0915 and the first one out is 1625). This survey is now to see what can be done to tweak the network for the next planned change in July. I think most of the passengers consulted in the first wave responded to the consultation (as they were handed out on the buses themselves by the drivers and 'Arriva Angels').

Just how do we please all of the people all of the time? Arriva don't have an unlimited budget and services have to provided against revenue generated and demand made, just like any business. I don't know much about these surveys and consultations from a public transport point of view but if everyone contributed who has an opinion instead of just sat grumbling and blaming the drivers then perhaps things might be different? Let's remember the drivers are just that, they do a highly credible job and don't make the decisions.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:45 pm)Dan wrote I moved to Monkwearmouth at the time of the most recent North Sunderland consultation, and almost every bus I was on in that time (of the services affected) were fully stocked with consultation leaflets. The Nexus Travel Shop had copies of the leaflets, and on one occasion I saw a man (can't remember if he was a Nexus employee or a GNE employee, though I'd assume the latter) was handing out said leaflets at Park Lane.

The process should have been the same for the 1/24 consultation. There should have been plenty of opportunities for people to pick a leaflet up, so I really can't explain why people living in the area didn't ever receive a copy of the consultation.

As for a small percentage being returned - the same could be said about people who vote in General Elections. A lot of people will criticise the Government for how the country is run, but I suspect a large number of those people will be those who didn't bother voting...

If the majority of customers don't like a set of proposals, Go North East simply cannot go ahead with them - no matter how much work has gone into designing the proposals. The reason why the online presence was removed for these consultations was to avoid 'spoof responses' - people who barely use the services having a say on something happening which will affect the people who do use the services regularly, it's just not fair. I personally haven't filled out the ANE survey because I don't ever use the services in the consultation, so I have no idea what questions further into the survey say - but the company must have a rough idea of what they want to change without first consulting customers.

With not living on a GNE route that has had changes since the online consultations were removed, I can't comment - other than what I see, hear and read on here.
I am sure the same irregular passenger on an affected service can just as easy take a number of leaflets, as they can complete a number of 'spoof' online responses.
However, as with the election (and passenger surveys) the uptake of these consultations need to be increased to show a bigger sample.

From the responses to a consultation and out of all the people in favour of a GNE proposal in one North Sunderland consultation - where do they go, cos it certainly isn't on the new service.
Then when the next consultation comes out a few months later, the majority are in favour of the GNE suggestions again, repeated several times over with a few tweaks along the way.

63% of 693 people doesn't give a fair result of a survey, neither does 63% of 500 returned consultations.
edit: The last North Sunderland consultation had over 300 responses.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:50 pm)Kuyoyo wrote The initial consultation was around travel habits which the network was then designed around (hence the last X17 on a morning arriving in Middlesbrough at 0915 and the first one out is 1625). This survey is now to see what can be done to tweak the network for the next planned change in July. I think most of the passengers consulted in the first wave responded to the consultation (as they were handed out on the buses themselves by the drivers and 'Arriva Angels').

That is an excellent way of ensuring passengers are included.
The more people who can be consulted, then I am sure the bigger the success in the changes.

Companies need to be proactive in doing so. They wont increase the sample by removing one of the mediums.

I wonder what the costs are in this ie Promotion of changes in several mediums versus a smaller sample and changes being made 2/3 times over (as in North Sunderland and SE Northumberland) until a solution is found.

I must give Arriva credit that they enacted upon the concerns of the residents on Weetslade Road when the X5 was rerouted and they lost a major bus service in turn nearly a year later, restoring the link with the 52.

Do Arriva consult before making changes in North Tyneside? I've never seen anything over the past few years. Generally they seem to make changes, get a lot of negative feedback and after a year go back to near enough what they had originally.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:45 pm)Dan wrote I moved to Monkwearmouth at the time of the most recent North Sunderland consultation, and almost every bus I was on in that time (of the services affected) were fully stocked with consultation leaflets. The Nexus Travel Shop had copies of the leaflets, and on one occasion I saw a man (can't remember if he was a Nexus employee or a GNE employee, though I'd assume the latter) was handing out said leaflets at Park Lane.

The process should have been the same for the 1/24 consultation. There should have been plenty of opportunities for people to pick a leaflet up, so I really can't explain why people living in the area didn't ever receive a copy of the consultation.

As for a small percentage being returned - the same could be said about people who vote in General Elections. A lot of people will criticise the Government for how the country is run, but I suspect a large number of those people will be those who didn't bother voting...

If the majority of customers don't like a set of proposals, Go North East simply cannot go ahead with them - no matter how much work has gone into designing the proposals. The reason why the online presence was removed for these consultations was to avoid 'spoof responses' - people who barely use the services having a say on something happening which will affect the people who do use the services regularly, it's just not fair. I personally haven't filled out the ANE survey because I don't ever use the services in the consultation, so I have no idea what questions further into the survey say - but the company must have a rough idea of what they want to change without first consulting customers.

Were spoof responses the actual reason they removed the online option? Seems a bit extreme if that's the case...

Whilst I understand you can't prevent a spoof, there's certainly technology to make it more difficult. Mail out to all key card holders in North Sunderland, including a survey link and unique one time passcode?

Operators would love a turnout similar to general elections. I believe it hasn't dropped below 60% post-war?

(27 Mar 2014, 9:49 pm)aureolin wrote Were spoof responses the actual reason they removed the online option? Seems a bit extreme if that's the case...

Whilst I understand you can't prevent a spoof, there's certainly technology to make it more difficult. Mail out to all key card holders in North Sunderland, including a survey link and unique one time passcode?

I'm positive one of our forum members we associate with Go North East mentioned it as a possibility at the time - though it may have been amongst other reasons too, I'm not sure.

It goes without saying that the online presence would have allowed for a greater number of consultation responses, but the responses were not necessarily coming from the people that they should have been. Someone living in Fencehouses had the option to fill out the survey when it was online, and they might have only used the affected services once or twice per month yet had the same voice as someone who used the services multiple times per day. While 'spoof' seems a little exaggerated in this example, I don't think it's right that they had the ability to influence network changes. How likely is it that someone who lives in Fencehouses will travel to Park Lane, the City's main Library, or use a bus to Monkwearmouth for the sake of picking up a consultation leaflet? Far less, I'm sure.

I'm not being bias in any way whatsoever, but I really do think the new method is a lot better. Realistically, there is no way someone should be missed out. If I'm completely honest, the people who are less likely to notice the leaflets are the elderly. They should still have a say (and will if they receive one through their letter box), but I feel they're less likely to spot the leaflets on board buses. I don't know if this was the intention or not, but I can understand why it would be. The major thing which bugs me is that the results aren't available in the old .pdf document which was previously circulated, but this is mainly from an enthusiasts' point of view.

(27 Mar 2014, 5:45 pm)Dan wrote If the majority of customers don't like a set of proposals, Go North East simply cannot go ahead with them - no matter how much work has gone into designing the proposals. The reason why the online presence was removed for these consultations was to avoid 'spoof responses' - people who barely use the services having a say on something happening which will affect the people who do use the services regularly, it's just not fair. I personally haven't filled out the ANE survey because I don't ever use the services in the consultation, so I have no idea what questions further into the survey say - but the company must have a rough idea of what they want to change without first consulting customers.

The jest of this survey is simply to get the passenger's view of the recent changes and what could be improved upon on the service they use. These changes then come into effect from the 20th July.

(27 Mar 2014, 10:01 pm)Dan wrote I'm positive one of our forum members we associate with Go North East mentioned it as a possibility at the time - though it may have been amongst other reasons too, I'm not sure.

It goes without saying that the online presence would have allowed for a greater number of consultation responses, but the responses were not necessarily coming from the people that they should have been. Someone living in Fencehouses had the option to fill out the survey when it was online, and they might have only used the affected services once or twice per month yet had the same voice as someone who used the services multiple times per day. While 'spoof' seems a little exaggerated in this example, I don't think it's right that they had the ability to influence network changes. How likely is it that someone who lives in Fencehouses will travel to Park Lane, the City's main Library, or use a bus to Monkwearmouth for the sake of picking up a consultation leaflet? Far less, I'm sure.

I'm not being bias in any way whatsoever, but I really do think the new method is a lot better. Realistically, there is no way someone should be missed out. If I'm completely honest, the people who are less likely to notice the leaflets are the elderly. They should still have a say (and will if they receive one through their letter box), but I feel they're less likely to spot the leaflets on board buses. I don't know if this was the intention or not, but I can understand why it would be. The major thing which bugs me is that the results aren't available in the old .pdf document which was previously circulated, but this is mainly from an enthusiasts' point of view.

I do agree from a targeting point of view, but going back to solely paper based consultation is a massive backwards step. I'd rather see investment in a digital solution to this. They have a huge wealth of data in front of them to target the right audience, and then personally invite them to an online consultation.

Pull a report from the Key database for example. Select passengers who live in the area, or use the affected services x many times a week. Email them a link and pass code. That data should form the basis to your results, and any additional paper forms should simply complement. Assume similar data can be pulled for ENCTS and POP smart cards ?