(26 Apr 2014, 1:50 pm)AIG20 wrote For hygiene purposes the bus should have been removed from service immediately, as leaving sick on this bus will deter passengers and cause more germs to spread, therefore making more people feel sick.

This occurred with one of SNE South Shields's vehicles whilst working the E2 heading to South Shields, and as soon as the driver found out, it was withdrawn once it reached the depot.

I told the driver and he is cleaning it now. Can't help bit feel that transferring everyone to 7513 (which is parked in the station) would have been more appropriate, but y'know.

(26 Apr 2014, 1:59 pm)Dan wrote I told the driver and he is cleaning it now. Can't help bit feel that transferring everyone to 7513 (which is parked in the station) would have been more appropriate, but y'know.

Whitby drivers (and inspector) are very hands on - mind you wouldn't get me cleaning sick up lol

(26 Apr 2014, 1:07 pm)Dan wrote 7486 arrived into Scarborough 15m late and departed at 13:00 (20 minutes late).

7484 arrived into Scarborough 17m late and departed at 13:58 (18 minutes late). In addition, 7484 smells absolutely disgusting because there's a large amount of sick at the back of the vehicle on the upper saloon. Watch out Customer Services, you've got an e-mail coming from me tonight - especially if I miss my 15m connection at Middlesbrough.

See attachment. Fair to say I moved seat.

During the last school hols at Easter I had 2 incidents of children having been sick and the parents not telling me leaving me to be told by other passengers

Not really anything to laugh about (the sick on the X93) but this is the attitude you get from Arriva and it's staff. The whole service is a joke, always has been and always will be.

(26 Apr 2014, 4:54 pm)tyresmoke wrote Whitby drivers (and inspector) are very hands on - mind you wouldn't get me cleaning sick up lol

Noticed the inspector was out and about today seemingly writing the times of when all of the X93s came in. He disappeared for the hour until I was just about to go and then he popped back in and started writing things down in his notepad again.

(26 Apr 2014, 5:26 pm)upt50k wrote During the last school hols at Easter I had 2 incidents of children having been sick and the parents not telling me leaving me to be told by other passengers

Would the parents get fined for the kid being sick? Can understand why they've decided not to tell you, if so. If not, I can't think of a reason why they aren't telling drivers.

(26 Apr 2014, 7:41 pm)robisdave15 wrote Not really anything to laugh about (the sick on the X93) but this is the attitude you get from Arriva and it's staff. The whole service is a joke, always has been and always will be.

The driver had already been told about the sick before I got to him, and he was less than impressed with being told the same thing again. Assumed he was just a bit peeved with the fact he would have to clean up sick!

What might the point be in writing down the times ? What's that going to achieve? Last year we had the farce with the E400's - totally unsuitable for the route and demands placed on them by a greedy operator - and now we've got these clapped out and frankly scruffy, cast offs from London! Tell me? What good does giving something a respray solve? Arriva choose to operate this route double deck not to solve the overcrowding issues but essentially, to save money. I, like a lot of people, would like to travel to the seaside, but not with Arriva.

(26 Apr 2014, 8:35 pm)robisdave15 wrote What might the point be in writing down the times ? What's that going to achieve? Last year we had the farce with the E400's - totally unsuitable for the route and demands placed on them by a greedy operator - and now we've got these clapped out and frankly scruffy, cast offs from London! Tell me? What good does giving something a respray solve? Arriva choose to operate this route double deck not to solve the overcrowding issues but essentially, to save money. I, like a lot of people, would like to travel to the seaside, but not with Arriva.

Oh yes, I can see the money saving - running deckers which cost more to run to the same level of service as during the entirely single decker operated days!

(26 Apr 2014, 8:35 pm)robisdave15 wrote What might the point be in writing down the times ? What's that going to achieve? Last year we had the farce with the E400's - totally unsuitable for the route and demands placed on them by a greedy operator - and now we've got these clapped out and frankly scruffy, cast offs from London! Tell me? What good does giving something a respray solve? Arriva choose to operate this route double deck not to solve the overcrowding issues but essentially, to save money. I, like a lot of people, would like to travel to the seaside, but not with Arriva.

Weren't the E400's successful on the route in the summer of 2012? And wasn't this the reason they got branded for the route in 2013?

I wonder how that works? Just the sort of answer I'd expect. Must be an Arriva employee not one of the poor passengers that have to suffer them!

(26 Apr 2014, 8:49 pm)robisdave15 wrote I wonder how that works? Just the sort of answer I'd expect. Must be an Arriva employee not one of the poor passengers that have to suffer them!

Actually, I do not work for Arriva - in fact my local route is Arriva-operated but do you see me complaining? NO! Some people seem to think Arriva do everything to cut costs - the mere fact they put deckers on the 93 in 2012 then followed that trial up by going to full time decker operation last year shows they aren't, as they are actually improving servicel.

I apologise if I upset anyone along the way but such is life. My interpretation of "improving" a service though is buses that run to time and can be relied on; at present that's not what is happening on the 93's. Statistics may say otherwise but facts blow a hole in that? I've read what is posted here, listened to other people's tales of woe and experienced it at first hand! It's a fact that if it wasn't for the efforts of the Whitby based operating staff it would have been worse than it has been. Until recently, for example (the last round of service changes) they were sent every poor vehicle that Redcar could manage and breakdowns/service failures were rife, now thankfully with the introduction of Pulsars in the x4/4 and these B7's - such as they are - on the X93 then things might just be looking up? I've not yet seen the new 'summer' timetable for the 93, just hope those at Arriva have provided a sensible timetable for a change.

(26 Apr 2014, 9:43 pm)robisdave15 wrote I apologise if I upset anyone along the way but such is life. My interpretation of "improving" a service though is buses that run to time and can be relied on; at present that's not what is happening on the 93's. Statistics may say otherwise but facts blow a hole in that? I've read what is posted here, listened to other people's tales of woe and experienced it at first hand! It's a fact that if it wasn't for the efforts of the Whitby based operating staff it would have been worse than it has been. Until recently, for example (the last round of service changes) they were sent every poor vehicle that Redcar could manage and breakdowns/service failures were rife, now thankfully with the introduction of Pulsars in the x4/4 and these B7's - such as they are - on the X93 then things might just be looking up? I've not yet seen the new 'summer' timetable for the 93, just hope those at Arriva have provided a sensible timetable for a change.

Would the service be better operated totally by Whitby?

(26 Apr 2014, 9:46 pm)mb134 wrote Would the service be better operated totally by Whitby?

The service would be better if Whitby was paired with Stockton and not Redcar - but thankfully with intervention from director level things are improving at Redcar and Whitby with allocations becoming more solid as a result.

The B7 Geminis are not ideal but they're a stop gap measure which seems to be working for now, time will tell whether they can last the summer without major failures!

The new timetable for the summer sees 8 vehicles running, 6 double decks from Whitby and 2 single decks (hopefully Pulsars?!) based at Redcar. More running time is included, and layover time in Whitby is increased from 5 minutes to 8 minutes in an attempt to combat loading issues. In Middlesbrough it will depart from Stand 9 at 20 past the hour, plus the morning extras at 0850 and 0950. Most arrivals and departures in Scarborough will link with the Transpennine trains from/to York, Leeds and Manchester with through fares to be available (I believe)

(26 Apr 2014, 9:43 pm)robisdave15 wrote I apologise if I upset anyone along the way but such is life. My interpretation of "improving" a service though is buses that run to time and can be relied on; at present that's not what is happening on the 93's. Statistics may say otherwise but facts blow a hole in that? I've read what is posted here, listened to other people's tales of woe and experienced it at first hand! It's a fact that if it wasn't for the efforts of the Whitby based operating staff it would have been worse than it has been. Until recently, for example (the last round of service changes) they were sent every poor vehicle that Redcar could manage and breakdowns/service failures were rife, now thankfully with the introduction of Pulsars in the x4/4 and these B7's - such as they are - on the X93 then things might just be looking up? I've not yet seen the new 'summer' timetable for the 93, just hope those at Arriva have provided a sensible timetable for a change.

I don't think you're particularly upsetting anyone, but it is coming across as if you have an agenda against the X93. For the issues you appear to having, I think you should either take them up via Arriva's escalation procedure. If you're still not satisfied, there's either Bus Users UK, or even still; the Traffic Commissioner. Repeatedly posting how dissatisfied with the X93 is not going to resolve the issue for you.

(26 Apr 2014, 11:18 am)VolvoMarkII wrote I can view live data 7 days a week...

If you try and use it 7 days a week, no doubt you'll find it's rather intermittent. I often find that it can't locate buses anywhere for periods of time, then suddenly it can find everything.

Can only assume it's the infrastructure at fault, as I've replicated the issue on multiple devices, locations, and over mobile data & WiFi.

Another thing I've noticed is that when the bus goes through a signal black spot, it disappears from the map altogether, rather than showing it's last position until it regains signal. I realise this is because I've got it set to show live buses only, but you'd expect there to be something there to show buses with a last contact time of < 3 minutes for example.

Clearly, when we read what Tyresmoke says, more people than myself are dissatisfied with what happens on the X93 than just me? Why have we had "director intervention?" It is a challenging route to operate and no mistake I have been, perhaps, a little harsh with my criticism but sadly have seen the dark side of the X93 to often, late running, breakdowns..I don't need to elaborate. What Tyresmoke says stacks up particularly that the service will operate from Stand 9 at MBS? Why it was changed from Stand 1 I don't know? The provision of "extra" layover time at Whitby? Have to wait and see about that one? What, for example are the turn round times at the ends of the route? Operation from Stockton we know can't, sadly happen and the use of the B7'S we will have to wait and see; I don't see anything on the Arriva stock being able to properly cope with the route? Maybe splitting the service and having the MBS - Scarborough X93 operating direct ommiting Robin Hoods Bay and the short 93 trips (Whitby-Scarborough) going through Bay could be an answer? There are many permutations so I will sit back and watch will interest.

(27 Apr 2014, 6:02 am)robisdave15 wrote Clearly, when we read what Tyresmoke says, more people than myself are dissatisfied with what happens on the X93 than just me? Why have we had "director intervention?" It is a challenging route to operate and no mistake I have been, perhaps, a little harsh with my criticism but sadly have seen the dark side of the X93 to often, late running, breakdowns..I don't need to elaborate. What Tyresmoke says stacks up particularly that the service will operate from Stand 9 at MBS? Why it was changed from Stand 1 I don't know? The provision of "extra" layover time at Whitby? Have to wait and see about that one? What, for example are the turn round times at the ends of the route? Operation from Stockton we know can't, sadly happen and the use of the B7'S we will have to wait and see; I don't see anything on the Arriva stock being able to properly cope with the route? Maybe splitting the service and having the MBS - Scarborough X93 operating direct ommiting Robin Hoods Bay and the short 93 trips (Whitby-Scarborough) going through Bay could be an answer? There are many permutations so I will sit back and watch will interest.

I believe Stand 1 is not used by any service permanently as it is not DDA compliant. As such, when the bus station was refurbished, they could not do any work to level the stand out at passenger boarding point to get compliance, due to the shops and infrastructure underneath.

Arriva decided to operate from Stand 8 to align the Guisborough (and at the time) Whitby directional services together, as ensure compliance with the DDA going forward. However, due to the loads, last year the X93 was delaying the 5/5A - so this year it will share Stand 9 with Service 9 which presumably has smaller bulk loads from the bus station in comparison to 5/5A.

I believe the turnaround time at the end of the routes has increased from 8 minutes at each end (last year summer timetable) to around 15 in Scarborough and 20 in Middlesbrough. The short workings do not interwork with the long workings either. The timetable all year around is therefore standard from May, with additional trips 'dropping in' over the summer. This is one big improvement in my eyes.

Lets be honest though, is the timetable really the issue? The Omnicities seem to cope with it. Its only since the E400's and the B7's arrived that people keep pointing fingers at the timetable more. Its fairly evident that the vehicles are the problem and Arriva do need to address that going forward. However, like debated many times, the X93 probably could use new kit, but unless someone can build buses at the click of a finger, they needed to do something to replace the E400 in the short term...

Thanks Volvo, all that is interesting and makes sense, we agree that the prprincipal problem is to do with the stock used on the route and that it's virtually impossible to find,or build a vehicle suitable for such a route. Taking aside the issues to do with overcrowding the Scania Omnis were ideally suitable, as were the coaches, unfortunately now none DDA compliant. Using Temsa Avenues to substitute for E400's was a fair idea but again not suitable to deal with the loadings and then who wants to ride all the way on those seats?
It looks as though some of the issues have been addressed so taking into account the inevitable problems that occur operating a route such as this then I guess we give everyone involved a chance.

(27 Apr 2014, 7:15 am)VolvoMarkII wrote I believe Stand 1 is not used by any service permanently as it is not DDA compliant. As such, when the bus station was refurbished, they could not do any work to level the stand out at passenger boarding point to get compliance, due to the shops and infrastructure underneath.

Arriva decided to operate from Stand 8 to align the Guisborough (and at the time) Whitby directional services together, as ensure compliance with the DDA going forward. However, due to the loads, last year the X93 was delaying the 5/5A - so this year it will share Stand 9 with Service 9 which presumably has smaller bulk loads from the bus station in comparison to 5/5A.

I believe the turnaround time at the end of the routes has increased from 8 minutes at each end (last year summer timetable) to around 15 in Scarborough and 20 in Middlesbrough. The short workings do not interwork with the long workings either. The timetable all year around is therefore standard from May, with additional trips 'dropping in' over the summer. This is one big improvement in my eyes.

Lets be honest though, is the timetable really the issue? The Omnicities seem to cope with it. Its only since the E400's and the B7's arrived that people keep pointing fingers at the timetable more. Its fairly evident that the vehicles are the problem and Arriva do need to address that going forward. However, like debated many times, the X93 probably could use new kit, but unless someone can build buses at the click of a finger, they needed to do something to replace the E400 in the short term...

Gonna go all Davey Bowyer on people now :p - In the entire Arriva UK fleet, there must have been something more suitable than these b7 Geminis.
Regional management, must be aware of the issues competitors have had, running long distance routes, using cascaded vehicles with the same engine.

Without sounding too pessimistic, I was waiting for comments to appear on the forum on how the vehicles would perform on the hills and now one has appeared, I ain't shocked.
Additional time may have been added to the timetable and it sounds like it is needed - but at what cost?
Day trippers having less time in their chosen destination and stuck on a struggling bus, there and back by the sounds of it.

(27 Apr 2014, 9:30 am)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Gonna go all Davey Bowyer on people now :p - In the entire Arriva UK fleet, there must have been something more suitable than these b7 Geminis.
Regional management, must be aware of the issues competitors have had, running long distance routes, using cascaded vehicles with the same engine.

Without sounding too pessimistic, I was waiting for comments to appear on the forum on how the vehicles would perform on the hills and now one has appeared, I ain't shocked.
Additional time may have been added to the timetable and it sounds like it is needed - but at what cost?
Day trippers having less time in their chosen destination and stuck on a struggling bus, there and back by the sounds of it.

Totally agree especially with the bit about the B7's got one of the B7's on the X21 the other day (7490 I think) which was around 10-15 minutes late, 2 or 3 weeks ago I saw 7484 on the X21 also and that was around 15 minutes late as well- Haven't seen anymore so Ashington might have figured it out. Do Arriva seriously think that buses that can't cope with a reasonably easy route can cope with the X93?

(27 Apr 2014, 9:42 am)mb134 wrote Totally agree especially with the bit about the B7's got one of the B7's on the X21 the other day (7490 I think) which was around 10-15 minutes late, 2 or 3 weeks ago I saw 7484 on the X21 also and that was around 15 minutes late as well- Haven't seen anymore so Ashington might have figured it out. Do Arriva seriously think that buses that can't cope with a reasonably easy route can cope with the X93?

Granted there may be other factors, such as traffic and loadings that contribute to late running, but the vehicle allocation will play a part too.

I mentioned the alx400 that was on the x1/x2 the other day - that was 30mins late at one point and had the following Gemini on its tail end.
When Tyresmoke had seen it earlier in the day, it was late - but not that far behind schedule.
As the day had gone on, there was obviously a reason it was falling later and later behind time.

I wanted to rest my case/give things a chance but the issue regarding the stock to be used on the X93 is clearly going to be much the same as it was using the E400's, factor that into a depot that has had, let's he honest here, long running maintainance issues and there has to be reason to worry. My reasoning - above - for operating the MBS - Scarborough service as a x93 direct was based on avoiding the long climbs, in either direction, in and out of Robin
Hoods Bay on the section? It's a long shot I know but experience (travelling) and speaking to the Whitby drivers, this has been a notorious time killer in the past and there is no reason why it should change using these "refurbished" 12 year old vehicles. Is there a solution? I doubt it just ways if trying to manage a situation.

(27 Apr 2014, 9:51 am)Andreos Constantopolous wrote Granted there may be other factors, such as traffic and loadings that contribute to late running, but the vehicle allocation will play a part too.

I mentioned the alx400 that was on the x1/x2 the other day - that was 30mins late at one point and had the following Gemini on its tail end.
When Tyresmoke had seen it earlier in the day, it was late - but not that far behind schedule.
As the day had gone on, there was obviously a reason it was falling later and later behind time.

Problem is the later and later you get, the more and more passengers you start picking up. It happens all the time on our 15s as an example, get 2 minutes late and before you know it you can be 7-8 late with the other one right behind you as he's been picking nobody up! Then the two start fighting and eventually fall behind til the next one catches up. This is why we regularly end up with pairs and sometimes 3s and 4s running around together when it's really busy (Wednesdays for example!).

Of course this is less of an issue on less frequent services but the same applies just over a longer time period. It's also harder to drop one out and get it back on time when you only have a half hourly frequency.

(27 Apr 2014, 10:20 am)tyresmoke wrote Problem is the later and later you get, the more and more passengers you start picking up. It happens all the time on our 15s as an example, get 2 minutes late and before you know it you can be 7-8 late with the other one right behind you as he's been picking nobody up! Then the two start fighting and eventually fall behind til the next one catches up. This is why we regularly end up with pairs and sometimes 3s and 4s running around together when it's really busy (Wednesdays for example!).

Of course this is less of an issue on less frequent services but the same applies just over a longer time period. It's also harder to drop one out and get it back on time when you only have a half hourly frequency.

Even on an x1/x2?
Totally agree it will happen on other services, particularly around Stockton with the 15, but between Newcastle and Durham - there are any amount of alternatives that passengers would get. I imagine it is the same between Durham and Coxhoe too.

That's an issue that is hard to address, sadly the public don't see it that way as I'm sure Tyresmoke will agree? We suffer at times on our 5/5a services which happens, in part, because of the different diagrame that these services operate. A 5, for example operating out of town on a morning when the schools can fall behind and despite the extra running time, find it difficult to catch up. You then get a 5a service operating a different diagram running to time but right behind the late 5 and so it goes on. I understand how it works but as I say, the public (most of them) don't!

Perhaps Tyresmoke might like to comment on the use of the radio system on the buses and whether this, plus the fact that most Arriva services are now GPS tracked, would help with timekeeping and reliability on the X93? Just a thought.

(26 Apr 2014, 11:18 am)VolvoMarkII wrote I can view live data 7 days a week...

Not a single bus on the map again today, guess it will only be 5 days this week...

(27 Apr 2014, 10:58 am)robisdave15 wrote Perhaps Tyresmoke might like to comment on the use of the radio system on the buses and whether this, plus the fact that most Arriva services are now GPS tracked, would help with timekeeping and reliability on the X93? Just a thought.

You would certainly hope so! Knowing a bus is running late with ample time to arrange a on time replacement should be ideal.

It remains to be seen how well this system is used internally.

You would have this combined with some pro-active 'managrment', plus maybe the occasional spare vehicle / driver would go someway to dealing with some of the issues that affect the running of the X93? It's not always possible and kinda steps into an alien territory for Arriva but why not try these things? Be interesting to see what our man on the inside (Tyresmoke) has to say?

(27 Apr 2014, 7:55 pm)robisdave15 wrote You would have this combined with some pro-active 'managrment', plus maybe the occasional spare vehicle / driver would go someway to dealing with some of the issues that affect the running of the X93? It's not always possible and kinda steps into an alien territory for Arriva but why not try these things? Be interesting to see what our man on the inside (Tyresmoke) has to say?

High management have been down at Redcar and Whitby quite a lot in the last month or two, and it has resulted in a fair improvement to be honest! The X4 has been (almost) solid Pulsar and the X93 has been seeing 5 deckers quite regularly in the last week or two...
Still a long way to go though, with the X3 still failing allocation etc... Redcar often have a spare vehicle in Middlesbrough, as do Stockton. Whitby I believe sometimes do have a spare decker in Whitby bus station but obviously that relies on Redcar enabling them to have an extra vehicle to start with!

Don't like to be negative Scott, and thanks for your reply, but the fact that management have had to intervene paints a sorry picture. We've been here before and as soon as the dust settles we'll be back muddling through. A shame that your depot isn't suitable to take over the operations of the X93 and x4/4 because that would solve the problems in a heartbeat. We now have 6 reasonable B7's which, with a little tender loving care - in the right hands - could serve the route well and the new intake of Sapphire Streetlites likewise. Such a shame.