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RE: Wrestling
(23 Jun 2014, 11:33 am)marxistafozzski wrote And from what I have seen of Adrian Neville would love to see him called up to the Majors sometime soon

Being a local lad, I'd obviously like to see Adrian Neville do well on the main roster. His wrestling ability is top-notch and his aerial skills should at least leave audiences with their mouths wide-open in awe. However, he still needs to work on his promos as his talking still lets him down in my opinion. The fact that he looks like a gremlin probably doesn't help either.

I can't see him being a star on the level of Bryan or Punk, but I think he'll have a fine mid-card career unless WWE starts a Crusierweight division and actually takes it seriously.
RE: Wrestling
Dublin-born Becky Lynch (formally known as Rebecca Knox) is possibly the most talented female wrestler that WWE have on their roster.

However, because she's Irish, WWE have saw fit to thrust a sterotypical Hornswaggle-esque gimmick upon her in her NXT debut.



I usually like wacky gimmicks but this is one I could do without seeing if she's ever called up to the main roster.
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(30 Jun 2014, 5:31 pm)AdamY wrote Dublin-born Becky Lynch (formally known as Rebecca Knox) is possibly the most talented female wrestler that WWE have on their roster.

However, because she's Irish, WWE have saw fit to thrust a sterotypical Hornswaggle-esque gimmick upon her in her NXT debut.



I usually like wacky gimmicks but this is one I could do without seeing if she's ever called up to the main roster.

WWE seem to like Stereotypes...Off the top of my head

Hornswoggle: Finlays Leprechaun
Wrestlers from Eastern Europe: Always characterised as Soviet Sympathisers, look at Rusev and Lana today, Russian Sympathisers and there not even Russian...He is Bulgarian and she is from Florida

Who remembers Mohamed Hassan, played a shadowy terrorist type with Daivari managing him, at a time when 9/11 was still fresh in our minds...

Talking about wacky gimmicks...Look no further than the Gobbledygooker and Doink the Clown, 2 of the most absurd gimmicks ever, one of those gimmicks that should not work but somehow does, absurd enough to the point of being so stupid that it becomes funny

BTW...Becky Lynch is quite fit...But I don't think much of her Riverdance impression
RE: Wrestling
(30 Jun 2014, 6:15 pm)marxistafozzski wrote WWE seem to like Stereotypes...Off the top of my head

Wrestlers from Eastern Europe: Always characterised as Soviet Sympathisers, look at Rusev and Lana today, Russian Sympathisers and there not even Russian...He is Bulgarian and she is from Florida

To be fair, most wrestling promotions have portrayed wrestlers supposedly from Eastern Europe/Russia in a similar manner. Off the top of my head, there's only Vladimir Koslov (Lithuanian - although Lithuania was part of the USSR when he born) Alex Koslov (Moldavian - same deal as Lithuania) Nikolai Volkoff (Croatian) and, of course, Rusev who actually have some sort of Eastern European background. The rest (e.g. Ivan and Nikita Koloff, Krusher Khruschev, Boris Zukhov, Boris Malenko etc,) were all portrayed by Americans. Although Rusev gimmick is very 80's in a cold-war sense, I don't have a problem with thinking that they're superior to Americans because they're from another country. But you're right, it would be nice if he was actually from Russia and not Bulgaria.

Who remembers Mohamed Hassan, played a shadowy terrorist type with Daivari managing him, at a time when 9/11 was still fresh in our minds...

The initial concept of Muhammad Hassan gimmick was actually quite unique as it concentrated on the prejudices that Americans held towards Muslims and Arab-Americans at the time. When the gimmick inevitably turned towards Hassan/Daivari portraying characters who were essentially terrorists was when gimmick went down-hill so to speak. The fact that the now infamous 'piano-wire' incident occurred a few days before the 2005 London Bombings didn't help either.

Talking about wacky gimmicks...Look no further than the Gobbledygooker and Doink the Clown, 2 of the most absurd gimmicks ever, one of those gimmicks that should not work but somehow does, absurd enough to the point of being so stupid that it becomes funny

The Gobbledygooker, while utter shite and totally pointless, only lasted for one night before it was rightly binned. I actually loved the original heel version of Doink the Clown. Matt Bourne was awesome in the role and brought a real sense of creepiness to the character. It was when Doink turned face and acquired Dink as his sidekick that killed the character for me. But by then Matt Bourne had been fired and Doink was played by a different wrestler.

BTW...Becky Lynch is quite fit...But I don't think much of her Riverdance impression

Yeah, her Riverdance fighting-jig was pretty shitty. It makes me cringe to think what WWE have in store for her trainer, Prince Devitt, when he lands there in August.
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 2:14 am)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Welcome to Rawwwwww is Jerichooooooooooooooooooooo.

He was then attacked by the Wyatts, ohhh and The Miz is back also

(01 Jul 2014, 2:47 am)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Bit of Turns abouts Fair has just occurred on Raw, AJ Lee Returned and beat Paige for the Divas Title.

Haven't watched it yet but from what I've read it sounds like a great show.

Paige's title run has been uninspiring to say the least. Part of that is because she's portrayed as a cocky face when her character should really be a heel. Now that Mrs CM Punk has returned from her wedding and honeymoon and beat Paige in a similar manner to how she was beat for the title, the good/bad dynamic has been rectified and everyone is in the right role. This has the potential to be the best Diva's feud WWE has had in a long, long time if they can be arsed to take women's division seriously.

I don't particularly like The Miz but he's certainly more bearable as a heel than he is as a face. I like Jericho and although it looks like he's only there to eventually lose to Bray Wyatt, it should be fun.

The bit I want to see is the Jack Swagger/Zeb Colter turn. From what I've read it was done really well and it sounds like that Swagger is getting the 1993 Lex Luger mega-push. I think Swagger is underrated and it'll be interesting to see where WWE go with this.

Oh, I hope he gets a bus - a modern-day equivalent to the Lex Express.

[Image: tumblr_m6nf2pt9q81rqoq0po1_1280.png]
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(30 Jun 2014, 10:41 pm)AdamY wrote To be fair, most wrestling promotions have portrayed wrestlers supposedly from Eastern Europe/Russia in a similar manner. Off the top of my head, there's only Vladimir Koslov (Lithuanian - although Lithuania was part of the USSR when he born) Alex Koslov (Moldavian - same deal as Lithuania) Nikolai Volkoff (Croatian) and, of course, Rusev who actually have some sort of Eastern European background. The rest (e.g. Ivan and Nikita Koloff, Krusher Khruschev, Boris Zukhov, Boris Malenko etc,) were all portrayed by Americans. Although Rusev gimmick is very 80's in a cold-war sense, I don't have a problem with thinking that they're superior to Americans because they're from another country. But you're right, it would be nice if he was actually from Russia and not Bulgaria.

Would I be right in saying WWE are using Rusev similar to the way Dolph Lundgren portrayed Ivan Drago in Rocky...Hard as fuck, with little to say and a decent enough looking Valet at his side..

As for Lana, I am sure she is from somewhere like Florida, though I may be wrong there
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 5:06 pm)marxistafozzski wrote Would I be right in saying WWE are using Rusev similar to the way Dolph Lundgren portrayed Ivan Drago in Rocky...Hard as fuck, with little to say and a decent enough looking Valet at his side..

As for Lana, I am sure she is from somewhere like Florida, though I may be wrong there


Don't know whether it's intentional but you can certainly draw some comparisons between Rusev/Lana and the Lundgren/Brigitte Neilsen characters from Rocky IV. If Rusev kills Kofi Kingston and announces 'if he dies, he dies' then you'll know for sure Wink

I am sure I read somewhere recently AJ Lee was pregnant with a little Punk, guess not...

Do you think CM himself will be returning anytime soon???

It's highly unlikely (and incredibly unsafe) that AJ Lee would be wrestling if pregnant so I think your assumption that's she not is spot on.

CM Punk has stated that he's retired from the wrestling business. However one must take wrestling retirements with a pinch of salt so I really don't know whether CM Punk is gone for good. I don't think he's returning anytime soon but never say never...
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 7:23 pm)AdamY wrote Don't know whether it's intentional but you can certainly draw some comparisons between Rusev/Lana and the Lundgren/Brigitte Neilsen characters from Rocky IV. If Rusev kills Kofi Kingston and announces 'if he dies, he dies' then you'll know for sure Wink


It's highly unlikely (and incredibly unsafe) that AJ Lee would be wrestling if pregnant so I think your assumption that's she not is spot on.

CM Punk has stated that he's retired from the wrestling business. However one must take wrestling retirements with a pinch of salt so I really don't know whether CM Punk is gone for good. I don't think he's returning anytime soon but never say never...

If he dies, he dies...

As for AJ, it would be foolish to wrestle pregnant, I just saw it mentioned on wrestling board last week, but the wrestling community online has come up with rumour after rumour and it turning out to be a load of crap.

As for wrestlers retiring, I know what you mean, how many times has Terry Funk retired and the same for Ric Flair (has he retired a few times)
RE: Wrestling
Terry Funk's first retirement happened sometime in 1983 on an All Japan Pro Wrestling card. It's quite the spectacle and you may have even heard a bit of it as a soundbite. (commentary in Japanese; retirement speech in English).



Less than two years later he was wrestling for Vince McMahon and appeared on the Wrestlemania 2 card the following year.

After several retirements later, he returned to All Japan (along with his brother Dory Jr.) in 2013.
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm)AdamY wrote In other news...

Source:http://www.courant.com/community/hartford/hc-hartford-wwe-arrest-0702-20140701,0,1640564.story

WWE 'Diva' Arrested In Hartford

[Image: 580x435]
Tenille A. Dashwood, 25, A.K.A. Emma, was arrested by Hartford Police under shoplifting suspicion. (Hartford Police / July 1, 2014)

By CHRISTINE DEMPSEY and DAVID OWENS,
cdempsey@courant.com
The Hartford Courant

4:22 p.m. EDT, July 1, 2014

HARTFORD — A female WWE wrestler was arrested on a shoplifting charge Monday, police said.

Tenille Dashwood of Winter Park, Fla. was charged with sixth-degree larceny after she stole an item from Wal-Mart, police said. The alleged theft was reported to police about I p.m.

Dashwood, whose ring name is "Emma," appeared in community court Tuesday. She was told to do community service, according to her lawyer, Hubert Santos.

Santos said outside the courtroom that his client's arrest stemmed from a mistake. She was using the self-checkout machine at the Hartford Walmart when she bought about $30 of items but forgot to pay for an iPod or iPad case, Santos said.

Hartford police described the item as a red iHome Slim Swivel iPad mini case valued $21.14.

The WWE was in Hartford Monday for a show at the XL Center.

The Stamford-based World Wrestling Entertainment did not say if Dashwood's status as an employee has changed but released a brief statement:

"WWE is aware that Tenille Dashwood (WWE Diva Emma) was arrested for shoplifting. Ms. Dashwood is ultimately responsible for her personal actions."

Dashwood is known for her "wacky attitude and quirky confidence," according to the WWE website. She also has a "unique" victory dance which, as she is quoted as saying, "reminds me to celebrate the fact that I am, indeed, a winner."

Looks like Emma might be in the dog-house for a bit although being associated with Santino Marella isn't exactly a career highlight.
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm)AdamY wrote In other news...

Source:http://www.courant.com/community/hartford/hc-hartford-wwe-arrest-0702-20140701,0,1640564.story


Looks like Emma might be in the dog-house for a bit although being associated with Santino Marella isn't exactly a career highlight.

Forgot to pay for an iPod...yeah right

As far as mugshots go, that's not a bad one, compared to some of the WWE mugshots I have seen, Jack Swagger looks absolutely evil in a mugshot I have seen of him before...

And your right about Santino, not exactly going to move you up through by managing him...

Hey Adam, what direction do you see the title going, I didn't watch MITB, but I know Cena won the belts and Rollins won the contract, do you think Cena will keep it for a bit and drop it to Daniel Bryan and do you think Rollins will cash in, in the near future???
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 10:20 pm)marxistafozzski wrote Hey Adam, what direction do you see the title going, I didn't watch MITB, but I know Cena won the belts and Rollins won the contract, do you think Cena will keep it for a bit and drop it to Daniel Bryan and do you think Rollins will cash in, in the near future???

Haven't read anything with regard to plans involving Seth Rollins and his MITB briefcase. I can't see him as a future WWE Champion but then again you could say the same thing about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. I just want to see Dean Ambrose thwart his plans at every opportunity. That will entertain me at least.

Apparently the short-term plan is for Cena to face Brock Lesnar at Summerslam. Long-term, it is probably to put the belt on Roman Reigns at Wrestlemania 31. If Lesnar wins at Summerslam, it gives Reigns a heel to chase which will go some way to cement his status as the company's top babyface. If Cena wins, I don't know how the eventual feud between Reigns and Cena will pan out as, apparently, Cena is against turning heel. I suppose you could do a Hogan/Warrior WM6-style build-up but, ultimately, that may damage Reigns as it did The Ultimate Warrior - especially if, like Hogan, Cena isn't ready to give up the limelight yet.

Daniel Bryan may get a couple of title-shots upon his return but he was never meant to be the face of the company (both HHH and Vince like tall, muscular champs - the fans got behind Bryan so they went with it) so I doubt he's going to win the title straight away. That's not to say he will never win the title or headline PPV's - just that he's seen as a guy to can add quality to matches but is not necessarily the star of the show.
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 10:40 pm)GMitchelhill wrote As anyone played WWE 2K14. Is it worth getting as I'm thinking of getting it for my Xbox.

No, never played it. I have an Xbox 360 but I've only actually played on it a handful of times. I'm not really a gamer and bought it because I liked playing Fable 3 at a friends house. After I clocked it, back in the cupboard it went. I have failed to get into any other games since.
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 10:40 pm)GMitchelhill wrote As anyone played WWE 2K14. Is it worth getting as I'm thinking of getting it for my Xbox.

Much of the same as WWE13 as 2K14 was basically the next THQ game (before they went bust) as 14 was done and 2K didn't really have the chance to put any mark on it

It's an alright game, the OMG spots are good (ish) and the Attitude Era player mode was interesting (nostalgic) but I do miss a proper single player mode. Universe Mode is fairly dull and same old bugs.

The next one 2K15 (October-ish) will be the first 2K attempt so worth keeping an eye on that.

Worth picking up 2K14 at £10 mark but the decent characters are behind DLC (which is already preloaded on disk)

I'm looking to buy WWF Wrestlefest on an arcade emulator myself!
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 10:47 pm)AdamY wrote Haven't read anything with regard to plans involving Seth Rollins and his MITB briefcase. I can't see him as a future WWE Champion but then again you could say the same thing about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. I just want to see Dean Ambrose thwart his plans at every opportunity. That will entertain me at least.

Apparently the short-term plan is for Cena to face Brock Lesnar at Summerslam. Long-term, it is probably to put the belt on Roman Reigns at Wrestlemania 31. If Lesnar wins at Summerslam, it gives Reigns a heel to chase which will go some way to cement his status as the company's top babyface. If Cena wins, I don't know how the eventual feud between Reigns and Cena will pan out as, apparently, Cena is against turning heel. I suppose you could do a Hogan/Warrior WM6-style build-up but, ultimately, that may damage Reigns as it did The Ultimate Warrior - especially if, like Hogan, Cena isn't ready to give up the limelight yet.

Daniel Bryan may get a couple of title-shots upon his return but he was never meant to be the face of the company (both HHH and Vince like tall, muscular champs - the fans got behind Bryan so they went with it) so I doubt he's going to win the title straight away. That's not to say he will never win the title or headline PPV's - just that he's seen as a guy to can add quality to matches but is not necessarily the star of the show.

I would also love to see Ambrose mess with Rollins, want to see him absolutely torture Rollins, his character is close to being psychopathic, I would love to see Ambrose be something of a loose cannon, the way Brian Pillman was in the 90's the kind of gimmick where people are not 100% where the line is between character and real life and what I have seen of Ambrose, he may just be able to do that...

What exactly has Cena got against turning heel, a lot of fans boo and jeer him as it is, so give them something to boo for, turn him, can't hurt surely...As for a match with Lesnar, don't really know if that would appeal to me to be honest, they both seem to be very limited offensively, and would they put the belt on Lesnar, someone who is only a part timer???
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 11:05 pm)gtom wrote I'm looking to buy WWF Wrestlefest on an arcade emulator myself!

I used to love playing that in the arcade at Metroland in the early 90s.

I always picked Demolition - I thought Smash's top rope splash and Crush's tilt-a-whirl backbreaker were the best moves in the game. Earthquake's splash also looked good.

Never managed to beat Legion of Doom at the end. I always ended up running out of money.Sad
RE: Wrestling
Lana, the Russian bombshell is a 29 year old Florida native (though grew up in Latvia so she's nailed on to play a Russian managing a Bulgarian who thinks he's Russian)

Lana is training/is trained as a wrestler
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 11:08 pm)marxistafozzski wrote I would also love to see Ambrose mess with Rollins, want to see him absolutely torture Rollins, his character is close to being psychopathic, I would love to see Ambrose be something of a loose cannon, the way Brian Pillman was in the 90's the kind of gimmick where people are not 100% where the line is between character and real life and what I have seen of Ambrose, he may just be able to do that...

Ambrose seems quite smart in real-life. He comes across as very likeable in interviews. Check out this interview with Colt Cabana on his Art of Wrestling podcast earlier this year.

http://tsmradio.com/coltcabana/2014/01/2...n-ambrose/

What exactly has Cena got against turning heel, a lot of fans boo and jeer him as it is, so give them something to boo for, turn him, can't hurt surely...As for a match with Lesnar, don't really know if that would appeal to me to be honest, they both seem to be very limited offensively, and would they put the belt on Lesnar, someone who is only a part timer???

Obviously, I don't know if Lesnar will win. However, watching Reigns chasing him for the belt will be fun in my opinion.

I think Cena thinks turning heel will ruin any appeal he has (much like Hogan in the early 90s). Although he gets booed he's still cheered by the kids and sells lots of merchandise. He's also associated with lots of charities and does a lot of good work for the likes of The Make-a-Wish foundation - something he apparently enjoys. It's not that easy to be associated with charity work when your character is presented in a negative light I suppose.
RE: Wrestling
Sorry guys but they aren't turning Cena heel.

He's the face of the company. He's got the charity stuff, the merchandising, the gameshows, the tv shows, the movies, it would be suicide by the WWE to please people.

They can use him differently, get him to elevate new talent (letting Bray get the win over him would have been a start!)

Cena is a made man, he doesn't need the titles imo to be the top guy, he is the top guy, whatever happens, whoever is the WWE Champ, Cena whilst he is there is still the top guy
Marxista Fozzski
Re: RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 11:20 pm)AdamY wrote Ambrose seems quite smart in real-life. He comes across as very likeable in interviews. Check out this interview with Colt Cabana on his Art of Wrestling podcast earlier this year.

http://tsmradio.com/coltcabana/2014/01/2...n-ambrose/


Obviously, I don't know if Lesnar will win. However, watching Reigns chasing him for the belt will be fun in my opinion.

I think Cena thinks turning heel will ruin any appeal he has (much like Hogan in the early 90s). Although he gets booed he's still cheered by the kids and sells lots of merchandise. He's also associated with lots of charities and does a lot of good work for the likes of The Make-a-Wish foundation - something he apparently enjoys. It's not that easy to be associated with charity work when your character is presented in a negative light I suppose.

Yeah, I see what you mean about Cena, one thing nobody can take away from him is his commitment to Charity Work, if I remember right John Cena is one of most requested people by kids at Make-a-Wish, and it is plain to see how much he clearly enjoys it, the clips I have seen of him meeting with people is brilliant. I have also heard Cena is a good guy all round, in early 2008, my uncle told me Cena walked into the Bar at the Hilton Hotel in Belfast, joined a group of lads for a drink and bought a round and proceeded to sit and chat away for a few hours,

I think WWE as a whole do a lot with Make-a-Wish if I am not mistaken both Vince and Linda McMahon are on the Make-a-Wish board of directors or they were at one point.
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 11:40 pm)marxistafozzski wrote I think WWE as a whole do a lot with Make-a-Wish if I am not mistaken both Vince and Linda McMahon are on the Make-a-Wish board of directors or they were at one point.

Cena has granted more wishes (over 400) than anyone else in the history of Make A Wish

Neither Linda or Vince have been on the MAW board, Linda appeared in an ad in 2011 and Vince has actually granted a few wishes

Vince is however on the Advisory Panel for MAW
RE: Wrestling
(01 Jul 2014, 9:52 pm)AdamY wrote In other news...

Source:http://www.courant.com/community/hartford/hc-hartford-wwe-arrest-0702-20140701,0,1640564.story

WWE 'Diva' Arrested In Hartford

[Image: 580x435]
Tenille A. Dashwood, 25, A.K.A. Emma, was arrested by Hartford Police under shoplifting suspicion. (Hartford Police / July 1, 2014)

By CHRISTINE DEMPSEY and DAVID OWENS,
cdempsey@courant.com
The Hartford Courant

4:22 p.m. EDT, July 1, 2014

HARTFORD — A female WWE wrestler was arrested on a shoplifting charge Monday, police said.

Tenille Dashwood of Winter Park, Fla. was charged with sixth-degree larceny after she stole an item from Wal-Mart, police said. The alleged theft was reported to police about I p.m.

Dashwood, whose ring name is "Emma," appeared in community court Tuesday. She was told to do community service, according to her lawyer, Hubert Santos.

Santos said outside the courtroom that his client's arrest stemmed from a mistake. She was using the self-checkout machine at the Hartford Walmart when she bought about $30 of items but forgot to pay for an iPod or iPad case, Santos said.

Hartford police described the item as a red iHome Slim Swivel iPad mini case valued $21.14.

The WWE was in Hartford Monday for a show at the XL Center.

The Stamford-based World Wrestling Entertainment did not say if Dashwood's status as an employee has changed but released a brief statement:

"WWE is aware that Tenille Dashwood (WWE Diva Emma) was arrested for shoplifting. Ms. Dashwood is ultimately responsible for her personal actions."

Dashwood is known for her "wacky attitude and quirky confidence," according to the WWE website. She also has a "unique" victory dance which, as she is quoted as saying, "reminds me to celebrate the fact that I am, indeed, a winner."

...And guess who's been 'future endeavored' today?

You guessed it...

...EMMA!

(Deported back Oz!!)
RE: Wrestling
(02 Jul 2014, 9:41 pm)AdamY wrote ...And guess who's been 'future endeavored' today?

You guessed it...

...EMMA!

(Deported back Oz!!)

Very Harsh from WWE, I bet Santino is Devasted - But on the opposite side of the Coin you have Randy Orton, Jack Swagger and Rob Van Dam, along with many others who have taken Drugs at some point. Shows WWE are not consistent when it comes to Disciplinary against it Employees.
RE: Wrestling
(02 Jul 2014, 10:03 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Very Harsh from WWE, I bet Santino is Devasted - But on the opposite side of the Coin you have Randy Orton, Jack Swagger and Rob Van Dam, along with many others who have taken Drugs at some point. Shows WWE are not consistent when it comes to Disciplinary against it Employees.

Absolutely.

Even in developmental numerous wrestlers have been arrested on DUI (and other) offences and managed to keep their jobs.

However, I reckon Emma would have probably been released next year anyway. She's done nothing note; she isn't really part of the Diva's division and it's pretty obvious that WWE had no immediate or long-term plans for her. Perhaps they saw this an easy opportunity to get rid of her now rather than later.
RE: Wrestling
(02 Jul 2014, 10:34 pm)AdamY wrote Scrub what I've just wrote.

It appears that WWE have decided to give Emma a second chance after all.

http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwe-reinstates-emma-26450666

Maybe Vince McMahon read Malarkey's post and thought 'you know what, he's right - it is a double-standard'. Wink

Probs his Yacht on the River Tyne and was he simply taking an Interest in our Transport System as he is Buying Shares in Nexus, he was then told about NEB and fancied a quick squise, seen my post and now Emma is Reinstated, but I guess we'll never know.