There's also mistakes in the current PVRs. The X21 is PVR6 not 8, the X25 is PVR5 not 6.

I know I missed out kibblesworth, wasn't intentional but I will have a crack at fixing that area with the loss of the 28A.

As for PVR's they were rough estimates, The Pronto does have 8 Buses if you include the usage of the X46.

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Service 22
Langley Park - Witton Gilbert - Sacriston - Edmondsley - Waldridge Park - Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley - Wrekenton - Gateshead - Newcastle

Service 23 - Langley Park - Witton Gilbert - Sacriston - Edmondsley - Waldridge Park - Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley – Kibblesworth – Team Valley Sainsbury's – Saltwell Park - Bensham - Gateshead - Newcastle

Combined Frequency of Every 15 Minutes

(24 Jun 2013, 12:49 pm)Adam Malarkey wrote I know I missed out kibblesworth, wasn't intentional but I will have a crack at fixing that area with the loss of the 28A.

Service 23 - Langley Park - Witton Gilbert - Sacriston - Edmondsley - Waldridge Park - Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley – Kibblesworth – Team Valley Sainsbury's – Saltwell Park - Bensham - Gateshead - Newcastle

Combined Frequency of Every 15 Minutes

Bloody hell Adam, that's going to be one hell of a long ride! Just when you thought the Magical Mystery Waggonway Tour couldn't get any longer

My initial Kibblesworth idea *(from earlier in the thread was)

Re - 24.

I'd bring in the 24A as a weekday hourly service but from Kibblesworth use Smithy Lane straight to up to Wrekenton and continue as 24 from there maintaing links to Allerdene and if anyone wants a quicker Newcastle service, get off at Allerdene Bridge and switch to the 21 OR X2. Nexus service 29 retains links to the bottom of Allerdene and Team Valley Sainsburys.

As a result of the above change the 28A would no longer travel to Kibblesworth and revert to its old route hopefully increasing reliability (avoiding Coalhouse Roundabout!)

ALTERNATIVE

Service 28A runs direct from Ouston to Kibblesworth omitting Birtley. Birtley - Ouston Local service we'll call it the 30 (can't remember the number of what it used to be) using an MPD maintains link (similar to what 28B does now)

The walk in centre is no longer located at Bensham Hospital and links to Saltwell Road can be maintained through a change onto the 69 at Low Fell or a short walk through Saltwell Park to reach Saltwell Crem from the 21.

Yeah it is quite a long route tbh, it would sharp kill those DAF's for sure.

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Could join the 24/24A and the 28/28A/28B together to make one whole route.

Current Form

24 Wrekenton - Harlow Green - Allerdene - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle
24A Kibblesworth - Team Valley South - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle

28/28A/28B - Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley - Wrekenton (28) - Kibblesworth (28A) - Gateshead - Newcastle

New Form

Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley - Wrekenton - Harlow Green - Allerdene - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle

Chester-le-Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley - Kibblesworth - Team Valley South - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle

Combined Every 15 Minutes

I quite like that idea about the 24 and 28 - however (theres allways one, so it might as well be me)...

Just seen 4987 at Perkinsville heading towards Chester. It had one passenger riding it. Loadings may be heavier at other points of the route (between Birtley/Ouston and Newcastle), however locally in Chester it doesnt carry enough passengers to justify a 15 min frequency.

The other point I would add, the route doesnt allow deckers - the current 24 acts as an alternative to the 21 along Durham Road. Sticking single deckers on the 'replacement' could cause loading issues when combining two buses into one.

(24 Jun 2013, 4:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote I quite like that idea about the 24 and 28 - however (theres allways one, so it might as well be me)...

Just seen 4987 at Perkinsville heading towards Chester. It had one passenger riding it. Loadings may be heavier at other points of the route (between Birtley/Ouston and Newcastle), however locally in Chester it doesnt carry enough passengers to justify a 15 min frequency.

The other point I would add, the route doesnt allow deckers - the current 24 acts as an alternative to the 21 along Durham Road. Sticking single deckers on the 'replacement' could cause loading issues when combining two buses into one.

God damn Low Bridges.

34/34A - Waldridge Park - Chester-le-Street - South Pelaw - Perkinsville - Ouston - Urpeth Grange - Beamish - Grange Villa - Pelton Fell - Chester le Street - Waldrige Park

So Basically coming in from Waldridge Park to Chester le Street, the 34 will do a Clockwise and the 34A Anti Clockwise Loop.

24/24A and 28/28A/28B Situation

24 - Chester le Street - Picktree Village - Vigo Lane - Birtley - B1288 Mount Pleasent Road - Wrekenton - Harlow Green - Allerdene - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle

24A - Chsster le Street - Birtley - Kibblesworth - Team Valley South - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead - Newcastle

28 - Chester le Street - Pelton Fell - Grange Villa - Beamish Pelton - Ouston - Birtley - Wrekenton - Q.E. Hospital - Gateshead.
Was thinking of having this use an MPD and go as far as the Q.E. and then do the QEH Shuttle around the Hospital Car Park.

Further points on the 28.

By cutting it out of Old Durham Road your removing the link that Ouston and Birtley have to the QE Hospital which now includes the nearest Walk In Centre (which I believe is under someform of guarantee)

Your correct on loadings Andreos, never really that heavy out of peak hence them curtailing the route on an evening to a more local service. I was speaking to a colleague at Beamish who said loadings off the bus into the museum were fairly non existent. It would take pressure off the Durham Road corridor slightly but commuters will probably stick with a quicker 21 than going up through Wrekenton or down through Allerdene/Kibblesworth (where traffic is equally poor during peak)

haha, Adam, sure you will crack it eventually :p Just demolish them bridges and your sorted

(24 Jun 2013, 4:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote haha, Adam, sure you will crack it eventually :p Just demolish them bridges and your sorted

What is that low bridge for exactly and does even get used or is like the one at Fatfield/Barnwell just there for show

It at Pelton and was a railway bridge.
It carries the c2c now - but as with the Lime, it means the Waggonway needs to be a single decker.
The old 709, 728 and 729 went that way and were single deckers also.

I think I cracked it on the comment just above gtomlinson's with a bit of editing after I seen what you's both said.

How about a circular/figure of 8 type service?

28 - Newcastle, Old Durham Road, Wrekenton, Harlow Green, Allerdene, Sainsburys, Kibblesworth, Birtley, Ouston and current route to Chester

28a - Newcastle, Bensham, Saltwell Road, Allerdene, Harlow Green, Wrekenton, Birtley, Ouston and current route to Chester.

Keep them at hourly intervals, it maintains the link to the QE, keeps Allerdene and Harlow Green connected, improves local connections to Team Valley, the QE & Wrekenton and offers an alternative away from Durham Road for those living in the those two estates.

I'm not sure if any sort of 'guarantee' exists, but I can confirm the existence of a vociferous lobby determined to retain (and, if possible, add more) links between Barley Mow/Birtley and the Q.E. Hospital. A number of residents from Kibblesworth and Allerdene are as equally committed to keeping their public transport links.

Any changes to services in these areas would have to take into consideration the views of these groups.

Taking that into account, is there enough scope to extend the 23 so that it actually serves Wrekenton properly?

23 - Barley Mow, Birtley (current route to Wrekenton), QE, Leam Lane Estate (58 route - Whitehill Drive, Staneway, Whealcroft, Fewster Square), Cotemede, Leam Lane, Springwell Village and pick up current route to the Galleries.

New and improved links with that option.

(25 Jun 2013, 10:34 am)Andreos1 wrote Taking that into account, is there enough scope to extend the 23 so that it actually serves Wrekenton properly?

23 - Barley Mow, Birtley (current route to Wrekenton), QE, Leam Lane Estate (58 route - Whitehill Drive, Staneway, Whealcroft, Fewster Square), Cotemede, Leam Lane, Springwell Village and pick up current route to the Galleries.

New and improved links with that option.

Re - the lobby on the QE. I'm assuming its the local partnerships in Birtley and the councillors lobbying on that one.

I'd say that 23 route is too long for links from Birtley. It's already 40 minutes plus from Barley Mow to Galleries.

I'd adapt it slightly, with slight emphasis on a local Birtley service.

Galleries (as is current route to) - Springwell - Wrekenton - Eighton Banks - Mill House Roundabout Northside - Portmeads - Vigo - Barley Mow - Durham Road - Birtley Station Lane - Crematorium - Wrekenton - Springwell (current route) - Galleries Bus Station (omitting Sainsburys)

Though in my head not sure that route works, the idea is to adopt a more circular route and take the X25 away from Portmeads and Northside (no Sunday service anyway)

And with upcoming chaos on the Western Bypass I'm throwing up my X22 change again.

Route as is from Durham/Chester Le Street to Birtley then Lamesley - Team Valley Retail World then non stop to Metrocentre via Western Bypass (Lobley Hill where roadworks don't exist) or through Bensham/Teams (old 183 routing)

This would add links to Retail World from Chester and Birtley and the Team Valley is getting extended bus lanes which will benefit services

With regards to the QE, it's not just the links but the times of visiting hours which need to be considered. Evening visiting hours usually start around 6:00 with most finishing somewhere between 7:30-8:00. Both the 28 and X25 provide links Monday-Saturdays with last buses departing from the QE at 8:06 (28) and 8:37 (X25). However, on Sundays there are no X25's, and the last 28 departs at 7:07. This makes it difficult for residents of Barley Mow and Birtley to return once visiting hours are over. No direct bus service is available and the only alternative option is a bus to Gateshead, then the 21 to Birtley/Barley Mow which incurs more expense as passengers are then forced to buy a Purple Buzzfare for their journey instead of just a single fare.

Another option to revising the route of the 23 would be to extend the 68 from Wrekenton into Birtley and onto Barley Mow.

Who in Birtley or Barley Mow would get the 23 as it exists to the Galleries anyway, when the M2 & M3 are much quicker?

The 23 is like the old 638, in that it combines a number of previous services with not many people travel from end point to end point.
People use it locally, hence making the suggestion I did - people in Barley Mow have to walk to get the X25, with nothing between there and the hourly 28 coming up from Station Lane when travelling to the QE. Imagine how happy the Birtley Councillors would be with a bus serving a massive portion of Birtley and taking them to the QE? Its never happened before.

It also creates a new link from deepest Leam Lane to the QE as well as developing a link to Washington. One of the biggest council estates in Europe isnt connected to a massive shopping centre 10mins down the road nor it's local hospital as it stands... which seems crazy.
Around Birtley, Barley Mow and Vigo, the 23 should adopt the same direction (where possible) as the M2/M3. Within the estate especially, people will be standing on one side of the road to get on the M2 to go to the shops in Birtley and the 23 will sail past in the opposite direction.

Re the X23 - that Lamesley road will be chaos. It gets bad enough as it is, without roadworks on the A1.

@ GTomlinson:

It's mainly local councilors (both current and ex) and resident associations. Another point contention concerns is that the 28/X25 serve roads skirting the perimeter of estates (with particular reference to Barley Mow) rather than the estates themselves. A lot of bungalows are positioned in the centre of estates which makes bus services largely inaccessible to elderly and immobile transport users. A valid point.

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@Andreos1:

Surely, you're not comparing the insignificant 40 minute journey of the 23, a bus which serves a handful of close communities straggling either side of thje A1, to the mammoth, near 2hr journey of the 638, a bus which served not only communities as diverse as Clara Vale and Oxclose but also encompassed some of the 23 route? That's sacrilege, lol.

Of course not, there is no comparison between the two The only thing they have in common, is that their routes came about with the amalgimation of previous services.
It would be crazy to put the two in the same box haha

(25 Jun 2013, 12:13 pm)Andreos1 wrote Who in Birtley or Barley Mow would get the 23 as it exists to the Galleries anyway, when the M2 & M3 are much quicker?

Re - QE. Birtley used to have the 777 and 721 up to the QE (not sure if the 77 ran up that way)

Who'd get it? Well, the M2 & M3 don't serve the East of Birtley at all or Barley Mow. From Station Lane all the way towards the Coach and Horses aren't served by the M services, they only really serve central Birtley. Saying that the 23 goes through Elizabethville instead of Birtley Durham Road

I like the 68 idea.

One bugbear of the 23 is the short workings from Barley Mow - Elizabethville - Crematorium. The loadings always look absolutely terrible, it has to be losing money hand over fist. This is added to the fact Birtley Crem is now only open 3 days a week (2 in quiet times) so it doesn't need a daily service but dividing it would complicate things

Yeah, the 721, 727 and 777 all went up that way, but stopped on Old Durham Road. Quite a hike for an older person or someone with a disability - or for me (whether its raining or not).
There has never been anything that has gone along Queen Elizabeth Avenue though or even in to the car park.

I genuinely don't see much demand from say The Red Lion along to The Coach & Horses (from the Cenotaph heading South, they are served) either along Durham Road or Ravensworth Road, for passengers wanting to go to the Galleries.
Always get mixed up, but one of the Streetshuttles does serve Barley Mow, Vigo and Portmeads, the other skirts the edge of Barley Mow along Vigo Lane and Durham Road (like the 183 did)

It may come as some surprise, but the 23 is not an amalgamation of routes. If anything, it's a curtailment of a lengthier route with revisions providing additional links to under-served areas in later years.

In my 1970 NGT timetable (shown below), the route existed as the '94'. It was then renumbered as the 181, then as the 184 before finally ending up as the 23 sometime in the last decade.

It originally continued to Chester. But by 1985, the route was cut back to Birtley before being extended to Barley Mow. It also continued to Brady Square at come point and I'm convinced that the 184 (along with the 284 and operated by Derwent Coaches) operated as a circular service extending beyond Washington through Lambton, Rickleton and Vigo back to Barley Mow.

The last combination was the Birtley Town Service 23 which ran from Barley Mow to Malone Gardens from the mid 80's until the early 2000's.
There was the 184 also, which ran from the top end of Birtley to the Galleries. Several years ago, the two were combined.
I think it came about after Stanley Buses were bought out by GNE. GNE ran the 184 (having had the 23 at various points earlier on) for a period and then stopped it. Nexus stepped in and combined the two.

So based on 20 odd years of history, it is a combined 23 & 184, but as you say prior to that, was a number of different services.

After reading some of the comment regarding the 23 etc which are quite interesting, here is my spin on things.

Current Form

23 - Washington Bus Station - Sainsbury's Car Park - Blackfell Knoulberry - Springwell Heugh Hill - Eighton Banks – Wrekenton - Birtley Crematorium - Lansbury Drive - Birtley - Barley Mow Estate

New Form

23 – Washington Galleries – Sainbury's Car Park – Oxclose – Blackfell – Springwell – Springwell Estate – Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Eighton Banks – B1288 Mount Pleasant Road – Birtley – Barley Mow – Ayton – Lambton – Washington Galleries
23A – Doing the same route but in the opposite direction to provide a Half Hourly Link

or

23 - Washington Galleries – Sainbury's Car Park – Oxclose – Blackfell – Springwell – Springwell Estate – Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Allerdene – Harlow Green – Low Fell - Birtley – Barley Mow – Ayton – Lambton – Washington Galleries
23A – Doing the same route but in the opposite direction to provide a Half Hourly Link

or

23/23A - Washington Galleries – Sainbury's Car Park – Oxclose – Blackfell – Springwell – Springwell Estate – Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Allerdene – Harlow Green – Low Fell - Birtley – Barley Mow – Ayton – Lambton – Washington Galleries
23A – Doing the same route but in the opposite direction to provide a Half Hourly Link

22 - Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Allerdene – Harlow Green – Low Fell - Birtley – Barley Mow
Short Journey that interworks with the 23/23A

or

23 – Washington Galleries – Sainbury's Car Park – Oxclose – Blackfell – Springwell – Springwell Estate – Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Eighton Banks – B1288 Mount Pleasant Road – Birtley – Barley Mow – Ayton – Lambton – Washington Galleries
23A – Doing the same route but in the opposite direction to provide a Half Hourly Link

22 - Leam Lane Estate – Q.E. Hospital – Wrekenton – Eighton Banks – B1288 Mount Pleasant Road - Birtley – Barley Mow
Short Journey that interworks with the 23/23A

To support the peak time loads on Durham Road I've come up with the short working (whatever crap we have in the dept) 24B

Eldon Square - St Nicholas Cathedral - Gateshead - Shipcote - Low Fell - Lyndhurst - Stone Trough - Allerdene Bridge (Southbound) (then either) Allerdene Bridge (Northbound) - Stone Trough - Lyndhurst - Low Fell - Shipcote - Gateshead/Newcastle

OR

as above to Allerdene Bridge then 24A route back to Low Fell (ommitting Kibblesworth and straight up Chowdene Bank)

Or it could jump into a working of the 24 or 24A

In regard to links between the QE and Leam Lane Estate, we seem to be forgetting about the 67, 69 and, of course, the mythical TB10. Since Wardley is connected to Leam Lane by services 57, 67 and 69; one of these links could probably be severed. As the 57 and 67 connect Wardley with Newcastle and the Metrocentre, I propose that something could be done with the 69. So how about from Windy Nook, the 69 is re-routed via Fallowfield Way, Woodburn, Staneway, Wealcroft, Leam Lane, Cotemede, Millford, Meresyde and Fewster Square (then perhaps onto Felling Square to retain that link - although it's probably not required) to provide new links to/from all areas of Leam Lane Estate.

Another suggestion would be for the 69 to operate its current route to Fewster Square, then onto Washington via Wealcroft, Staneway, Wealcroft, Leam Lane. Then either up towards Lingley Lane, A195, Coach Lane Estate, Concord, Albany and the Galleries, or down to Springwell Village and via the old 638 route through Blackfell and Oxclose. But maybe the length of the route would be a bit too 638ish for some.

To add to the mythical TB10 is the Ford Transit operated TB14 which covers the following route in Birtley, if anyone wants to make changes to the excellent 23 suggestions (we should send these to Nexus!)

TB14 basically operates the old 23 route with a few adjustments

Malone Gardens - Selkirk Crescent - Highridge - Mount Road - Birtley Lane - Birtley War Memorial - Durham Road - Harras Bank - Lord Lawson - Glenluce - Dunvegan - Portobello Road and reverse route. It's half hourly from 0930 to 1530

So that should keep the residents of the council estate of Malone Gardens (though thats mostly private now) and Vigo happy-ish.

I imagine like with all nexus taxibus services, no-one uses them since nobody realises what they are or assumes they are for disables/concessionary only

Just a thought that popped into my head

Current Form

QEH Shuttle - Temp Car Park(Opposite Cardinal Hume School) - Q.E Hospital

New Form

QEH Shuttle - Chester le Street - Birtley - Wrekenton - Temp Car Park(Opposite Cardinal Hume School) - Q.E Hospital - Leam Lane Estate - Heworth - Bill Quay

Free for NHS Staff with a NHS I.D and for Patients with an Appointment Letter otherwise a £1.20 Single Fare or £2.00 for Day Ticket, it also provides a "New Quicker Direct Link" between Chester le Street and Heworth along with the Q.E. Hospital.

(25 Jun 2013, 4:24 pm)Adam Malarkey wrote Just a thought that popped into my head

I like this, the North East lacks what other areas have in dedicated hospital services

Do you mean for GNE to run it commercially Adam? I wouldn't mind paying if I couldn't use the car. Probably too much strain on NHS budgets for them to give patients free travel. If I understand it right the current car park is temporary until the new Urgent Care facility is built when staff will then return to parking at the QE itself.

(25 Jun 2013, 6:01 pm)gtomlinson wrote

(25 Jun 2013, 4:24 pm)Adam Malarkey wrote Just a thought that popped into my head

I like this, the North East lacks what other areas have in dedicated hospital services

Do you mean for GNE to run it commercially Adam? I wouldn't mind paying if I couldn't use the car. Probably too much strain on NHS budgets for them to give patients free travel. If I understand it right the current car park is temporary until the new Urgent Care facility is built when staff will then return to parking at the QE itself.

Yeah I do, Have it run like the Quaylink and Sunderland Connect Services do. Otherwise no one would really use it