(08 Oct 2014, 4:34 pm)DaveyBowyer wrote Are  the B5LH's reliable on the 21?

yes i've never seen one of them breakdown within the last 2 years since they have been on the road

yes i've never seen one of them breakdown within the last 2 years since they have been on the road

Just because you've never seen one breakdown doesn't necessarily mean they are reliable (although they are probably okay) for example I never saw a Waggonway DAF breakdown but that doesn't mean they never broke down (we all know how bad they were and I probably never saw one breakdown because they probably did somewhere en route to Newcastle or Chester-le-Street)

(08 Oct 2014, 9:28 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Whilst in Gateshead This Afternoon I once again Witnessed Fab56's being Regulated, If I was a Passenger in Newcastle I would be furious with the level of Service that they are currently Receiving.

Service 56 is regularly regulated at Sunderland too.
The truth of the matter is, it is clearly operating to Go-Ahead's (very high) standards - otherwise Go North East would have to make service changes.

They are limited in what they can achieve. Go North East is currently concentrating on improving the engineering departments, making sure that there are fewer VORs and the quality of repairs is better than it was previously. Additional spare vehicles help with this. Having 6099 and 6100 around makes Deptford's lives a lot easier, which is why service changes which would result in one or both of them becoming a part of the PVR is unlikely.
Of course this is not to suggest that it won't happen - see recent Cobalt Clipper changes...

Does anyone know if there is a current service from Newcastle through to Dalton Park?

Thanks!

(09 Oct 2014, 6:46 am)stubus wrote Does anyone know if there is a current service from Newcastle through to Dalton Park?

Thanks!

Hi, 
No there isn't. There are however several ways you could get there. You could get the X36 from Newcastle to Sunderland, then the 24 or 61 from Sunderland to Seaham. Or, you could get the X9 from Newcastle to Peterlee, then the 202 from there, or a X1 from Newcastle to Hetton, then a 265 from there.

Thanks Tom

That's much appreciated.
Looks like it's going to be a bit of a road trip!

(09 Oct 2014, 6:49 am)Tom wrote Hi, 
No there isn't. There are however several ways you could get there. You could get the X36 from Newcastle to Sunderland, then the 24 or 61 from Sunderland to Seaham. Or, you could get the X9 from Newcastle to Peterlee, then the 202 from there, or a X1 from Newcastle to Hetton, then a 265 from there.

Like now...most of them, what ive seen are running in 2's... this is the 56's.

(09 Oct 2014, 5:55 am)Dan wrote Service 56 is regularly regulated at Sunderland too.
The truth of the matter is, it is clearly operating to Go-Ahead's (very high) standards - otherwise Go North East would have to make service changes.

They are limited in what they can achieve. Go North East is currently concentrating on improving the engineering departments, making sure that there are fewer VORs and the quality of repairs is better than it was previously. Additional spare vehicles help with this. Having 6099 and 6100 around makes Deptford's lives a lot easier, which is why service changes which would result in one or both of them becoming a part of the PVR is unlikely.
Of course this is not to suggest that it won't happen - see recent Cobalt Clipper changes...

So therefore Passengers on both ends of the Route end up Suffering a Loss of Service as a Result due them being Regulated, To be honest I think it pretty obvious what the Problem is with the 56, and that is the fact it stops at Every Single Stop between Sunderland and Newcastle, so if it then Stops at each of the 49 Stops for 30+ Seconds then it's clearly going to accumulate added time to the Journey and this where they start running in 2's and 3's because they can't keep to Timetable, and it's the same Scenario for the 21 as well.


Now the 56 has 6 Minutes Layover in Newcastle and 8 Minutes Layover in Sunderland meaning it has a Total of 14 Minutes Layover, using what I said above about it stopping at all 49 Stops for 30+ Seconds then that Layover Period is non-existent as 49 x 0.30 amounts to 14 Minutes, Meaning the Drivers wouldn't get a Break hence why the Services are being Regulated and we are yet to even factor in the added time for Roadworks etc which would again make the Service run even more Late than it should be.



Clearly changes need to be made to the 56 and I don't think adding a few Extra Minutes to the Layover Period would help at all whatsoever in terms of improving the Reliability of the Service, Perhaps splitting up the 56 into 2 or 3 separate Services may then improve the Service, I know it's been mentioned on Several Occasions in the Service Suggestions Thread about having an X56, But what would be the point when we already have the X36 which Mirrors some sections of the Route already, A simple Rebrand/Renumbering of the X36 could have Passengers Flocking onto the Service and in turn giving it that much needed Boost from the Sunderland end of the Route.

 



 

(09 Oct 2014, 11:51 am)NEBCD Malarkey wrote To be honest I think it pretty obvious what the Problem is with the 56, and that is the fact it stops at Every Single Stop between Sunderland and Newcastle, so if it then Stops at each of the 49 Stops for 30+ Seconds then it's clearly going to accumulate added time to the Journey and this where they start running in 2's and 3's because they can't keep to Timetable.

That's the problem with stage carriage services.

If they didn't have to keep stopping to pick up and put down passengers they could maintain the schedule.
Crowded services will suffer bunching as following vehicles have less passengers to pickup, so less stopping needed.

'Twas always thus . . .

You do realise that stopping time is built into the timetable..?

(09 Oct 2014, 12:21 pm)Dan wrote You do realise that stopping time is built into the timetable..?

Well if it is then mustn't be much for each stop then as it still can't keep to schedule regardless of timings.

(09 Oct 2014, 12:21 pm)Dan wrote You do realise that stopping time is built into the timetable..?

Yes, I was trying to make light of an inevitable situation.

Many drivers (over the years) have remarked about how they could keep to the schedule if only they didn't have to keep stopping for passengers (apart from traffic congestion and breakdowns of course).

(09 Oct 2014, 11:51 am)NEBCD Malarkey wrote So therefore Passengers on both ends of the Route end up Suffering a Loss of Service as a Result due them being Regulated, To be honest I think it pretty obvious what the Problem is with the 56, and that is the fact it stops at Every Single Stop between Sunderland and Newcastle, so if it then Stops at each of the 49 Stops for 30+ Seconds then it's clearly going to accumulate added time to the Journey and this where they start running in 2's and 3's because they can't keep to Timetable, and it's the same Scenario for the 21 as well.

So they would never bunch then.....if they stopped at all 49 stops for 30 seconds each as you say, they would all be running at the same time, so would never meet each other?

(09 Oct 2014, 12:27 pm)NEBCD Malarkey wrote Well if it is then mustn't be much for each stop then as it still can't keep to schedule regardless of timings.

Most services with a streamlined frequency face the same issues, and it's even more prevalent with long cross-city routes where a disruption on one end of the route can affect the service being provided on the other end.

When a service has a streamlined 10 minute frequency (or greater - in the Angel's case), passenger numbers are not consistent from run to run. A lot of passengers adopt the 'turn up and go' thought process - these passengers will simply go to a bus stop, without checking the timetable, and expect a bus will arrive shortly. So many times I've seen people stand a bus stop for about five minutes, and when a bus has not arrived, that's when they check the timetable. I know the majority of my family do this too (much to my annoyance).

It's quite often the case that you'll get a 56 which is absolutely rammed - by nothing more than pure coincidence - then the following service will be a lot quieter as the previous one accumulated a delay from picking up more passengers than expected, and the delay carries on and carries on. The following service then picks up fewer and fewer passengers, and you'll find that you eventually see two in a row. The one in front is then regulated, with the one behind getting all the passengers at a suitable timing point (such as Gateshead Transport Interchange).

As I say, the passenger numbers completely fluctuate and it would be very hard to prepare for the unexpected when designing timetables. Although operators want reliable services with as little lost mileage as possible, they do want to deliver savings too, and having a bus lay over for more than 10 minutes on a 10 minute frequency would be difficult to justify (as it adds an extra bus/driver to the mix, increasing costs).

The recent increased peak-time frequency on service X21 not only combats Arriva's X2, but 'eases pressure' from the Angel too. Some passengers will migrate from the Angel and use the Pronto instead, now that it has a higher frequency. Perhaps if there was an 'X56' during the day which also increased frequency at peak times, something similar could be achieved to improve reliability on service 56 - but we'll leave the suggestions for the appropriate thread! 

(08 Oct 2014, 11:13 pm)Jimmi wrote Just because you've never seen one breakdown doesn't necessarily mean they are reliable (although they are probably okay) for example I never saw a Waggonway DAF breakdown but that doesn't mean they never broke down (we all know how bad they were and I probably never saw one breakdown because they probably did somewhere en route to Newcastle or Chester-le-Street)

spoken to two of my mates one used to work at GNE and he said the vehicle was unreliable and broke down i spoke to one of his colleagues and she said only thing these are good for is the Horn

(09 Oct 2014, 6:51 pm)Racer_Experience wrote spoken to two of my mates one used to work at GNE and he said the vehicle was unreliable and broke down i spoke to one of his colleagues and she said only thing these are good for is the Horn

The horn on a Cadet are good, walking down The Terrace in Murton one day, my mate come fleeing down in a Cadet, seen me, honked the horn, sounded like the start of an air raid siren, I nearly died lmao

It's not as if there aren't any buses from Newcastle City Centre to Gateshead though! (More or less the same in Sunderland)...

I reckon GNE have good reason to regulate the buses and start late/finish early. If that's what they've got to do to keep to their timetable, it's the best option!
I think if that does happen though, customers should be allowed to use any 56 ticket on other Gateshead-Newcastle services etc. and be told that they should connect using another service.

(08 Oct 2014, 10:55 pm)Racer_Experience wrote yes i've never seen one of them breakdown within the last 2 years since they have been on the road

They are occasional visitors to Park View scholars, and I'm sure about one must be VOR at least once a week. Whenever I drive past the depot, about once every few days, there is typically one on the pits.

3962 and 3965 are terrible for breaking down, though.

If a service is frequently regulated then the timetable clearly does not work and extra vehicles must be added to the PVR. Otherwise passengers will continue to be inconvenienced by the advertised service not being provided.

(09 Oct 2014, 10:09 pm)Greg in Weardale wrote If a service is frequently regulated then the timetable clearly does not work and extra vehicles must be added to the PVR. Otherwise passengers will continue to be inconvenienced by the advertised service not being provided.

The 1000 run out of Newcastle may be on time on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, but on Thursday and Friday, it might be so late that it has to be regulated.
The following week, it may have to be regulated on Monday and Wednesday and be on time for the rest of the week.

How do you prepare for the unexpected without wasting resources - adding to costs and reducing profits (by and large, unnecessarily?)

The timetable for service 56, and other similar services operated by Go North East and other operators, do work most of the time - but it's difficult to design a timetable when passengers adopt a 'turn up and go' attitude due to the nature of the services, meaning passenger numbers fluctuate and aren't consistent from run to run, day by day.

I'm not sure about your experiences in the past, but earlier this year I had the privilege to be shown the work which goes into designing timetables and the factors which have to be considered when doing so... One major factor was that a driver is going to be under more stress to keep to time on a tight schedule, and drivers who are in that mindframe are more cerceptible to be involved in accidents. As you'd imagine, bus operators will have to fork out money to pay for repairs after an accident - and if this cost could potentially be larger than the costs to have buses with increased layover, the companies will have to make a decision on what they feel is the most appropriate. Designing a bus timetable is not as easy as one may initially think - and I think it's even harder for high frequency services!

To reiterate what I said previously: although service changes could take place to increase layover at either end of the route (which in turn would mean that either one or both of the service's two red spares would have to make up part of the PVR), Go North East is currently concentrating on improving the quality of the engineering departments, which in turn should mean that there are fewer vehicles VOR and those vehicles that are VOR are repaired sooner and more efficiently. This in turn benefits customers as their quality of service should remain (more) consistent. If the Fab56 had fewer spare vehicles, or none at all, engineering would be under even more pressure - and this would be a backward step. As I said before, the service is clearly operating to Go-Ahead's very high standards (in terms of having little lost mileage), otherwise service changes would have taken place long before now.

In other news, Dennis Trident 3890 is back at Percy Main following a deep clean at Thorntons.
I believe it was allocated to a scholars service yesterday afternoon, so it should be out on 327s today for anyone wanting a photograph... Either 3866 or 3867 should go to Saltmeadows after finishing up on this morning's 327.

Percy Main still have 3874 - possible that it's staying on temporarily to cover for the DFDS allocation in the paintshop.

(10 Oct 2014, 5:51 am)Dan wrote In other news, Dennis Trident 3890 is back at Percy Main following a deep clean at Thorntons.
I believe it was allocated to a scholars service yesterday afternoon, so it should be out on 327s today for anyone wanting a photograph... Either 3866 or 3867 should go to Saltmeadows after finishing up on this morning's 327.

Percy Main still have 3874 - possible that it's staying on temporarily to cover for the DFDS allocation in the paintshop.

It was on the 17 then. I heard it go by but thought it was 3891 - Works the last one which interworks with scholars. (Only works afternoons).

(10 Oct 2014, 6:28 am)Tom wrote It was on the 17 then. I heard it go by but thought it was 3891 - Works the last one which interworks with scholars. (Only works afternoons).

3891 was on 9s yesterday afternoon and through the night - not sure what it replaced.

(10 Oct 2014, 6:34 am)Dan wrote 3891 was on 9s yesterday afternoon and through the night - not sure what it replaced.

Would have been 3890 then.

The whole basis of operating a bus service is that passengers will "turn up and go". Timetables have to be robust and be designed to work in all except exceptional circumstances. So you time your bus according to how long it takes to travel between main points on each route in average traffic conditions and picking up average passenger numbers. Then at each main point on the route it's given a couple of minutes recovery time and at the end of the route sufficient layover to allow driver to have a pee, or long enough to depart in time in case of delay; so probably 6 or 7 minutes on an hour plus journey. For example, the X21 which I use most often, should have a couple of minutes at Gateshead, Chester le Street and Durham. But it seems to struggle to keep on time even when it gets a good run and is rarely on time at those points. Same is true for the 20, and the 21 timetable just doesn't work, as again, even when they have a good run they don't have to wait time anywhere, showing that the timings are too tight. Smaller operators get hassle from the Traffic Commissioners if they don't keep to the timetables; big ones seem to get away with it. I accept that they won't get it right all the time as you can't cater for exceptional circumstances, but many of GNE's services are timed too tightly, whereas the Arriva buses I see around Bishop Auckland (X1, 1, 5, 56, 86 & 87) usually run well and seem adequately timed; the only exception is the ridiculous timetable of the 6 which is unreliable and the two buses an hour supposed to extend to Cockfield don't get that far all too often. Regulation, ie cancellation, of buses on less frequent extensions to routes such as Arriva's 6 West Auckland to Cockfield and GNE's 21 Chester to Durham is incompetent and unacceptable. Only the frequent, combined sections of routes should lose workings to try to regain the schedules.

In total agreement with the 'turn up and go' point - on routes, which have high frequency services.
Wasn't this encouraged by operators and Nexus in their branding at one point?

Turning up to a stop, for a specific timed service rarely works in my experience - if only because of similarities mentioned relating to the 20, 21 and 56.
The 4 falls into that category and seems to get mentioned on the fb page with increasing regularity.

high frequency service or low frequency service, anything can ruin a bus journey, for example I was on the 50 in Washington last week and it left Washington on-time but two wheelchairs boarded the bus with difficulty so we ended up arriving in Durham 10 minutes late. Same can happen on the likes of the 21 & 56 for example if there is a pushchair who wants to get on but the spaces are taken and they decide not to wait for the next bus and have to fold down the pushchair, keep an eye on their baby and find the money to pay for their fare and this causes a delay and it results in the next bus catching it up.

The 56 is the worst for this as everytime I'm in Newcastle, Gateshead or Sunderland I see two together yet I don't think I've ever seen two Red Arrows together so clearly timetables are somewhat of a problem on the 56.

(10 Oct 2014, 10:39 am)Jimmi wrote high frequency service or low frequency service, anything can ruin a bus journey, for example I was on the 50 in Washington last week and it left Washington on-time but two wheelchairs boarded the bus with difficulty so we ended up arriving in Durham 10 minutes late. Same can happen on the likes of the 21 & 56 for example if there is a pushchair who wants to get on but the spaces are taken and they decide not to wait for the next bus and have to fold down the pushchair, keep an eye on their baby and find the money to pay for their fare and this causes a delay and it results in the next bus catching it up.

The 56 is the worst for this as everytime I'm in Newcastle, Gateshead or Sunderland I see two together yet I don't think I've ever seen two Red Arrows together so clearly timetables are somewhat of a problem on the 56.

I see the Red Arrows running together every Monday and Tuesday morning when in the galls... same as the 4 

It's not an issue unique to Go North East, nor is it an issue which is only seen on a couple of Go North East services.

Stagecoach in Sunderland's 10 minute frequency services are exactly the same. If they've been incredibly unlucky, you can see three 16s in a row by the time they get to Chester Road at 17:00...

(10 Oct 2014, 12:03 pm)Dan wrote It's not an issue unique to Go North East, nor is it an issue which is only seen on a couple of Go North East services.

Stagecoach in Sunderland's 10 minute frequency services are exactly the same. If they've been incredibly unlucky, you can see three 16s in a row by the time they get to Chester Road at 17:00...

hence why they should put a bus lane from the Wavendon to Broadway petrol station... that's the worst part of it!