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Greater Manchester bus fares to be capped under franchise reforms

Greater Manchester bus fares to be capped under franchise reforms

 
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2669
14 Mar 2022, 11:52 am
#1
Bus fares across Greater Manchester will be capped at £2 for adults and £1 for children as the network comes back under public control.

The region will be the first area outside London to have a regulated bus system since the 1980s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma...OaPiiRQGLQ


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cbma06
14 Mar 2022, 11:52 am #1

Bus fares across Greater Manchester will be capped at £2 for adults and £1 for children as the network comes back under public control.

The region will be the first area outside London to have a regulated bus system since the 1980s.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma...OaPiiRQGLQ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



1873
14 Mar 2022, 12:11 pm
#2
Taxpayers of Greater Manchester must be thrilled...

Wistfully stuck in the 90s
Ambassador
14 Mar 2022, 12:11 pm #2

Taxpayers of Greater Manchester must be thrilled...


Wistfully stuck in the 90s

570
14 Mar 2022, 1:33 pm
#3
I wonder what the daily/weekly cap will be
DeltaMan
14 Mar 2022, 1:33 pm #3

I wonder what the daily/weekly cap will be

948
14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm
#4
(14 Mar 2022, 1:33 pm)DeltaMan I wonder what the daily/weekly cap will be

If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.
busmanT
14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm #4

(14 Mar 2022, 1:33 pm)DeltaMan I wonder what the daily/weekly cap will be

If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.

570
14 Mar 2022, 3:49 pm
#5
(14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm)busmanT If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.
If they can announce the £2 fare then they can announce the rest as I'd assume they have worked all this out.
DeltaMan
14 Mar 2022, 3:49 pm #5

(14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm)busmanT If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.
If they can announce the £2 fare then they can announce the rest as I'd assume they have worked all this out.

948
14 Mar 2022, 4:27 pm
#6
(14 Mar 2022, 3:49 pm)DeltaMan If they can announce the £2 fare then they can announce the rest as I'd assume they have worked all this out.
I’m not convinced they have, £2 announced as the “headline grabber”
busmanT
14 Mar 2022, 4:27 pm #6

(14 Mar 2022, 3:49 pm)DeltaMan If they can announce the £2 fare then they can announce the rest as I'd assume they have worked all this out.
I’m not convinced they have, £2 announced as the “headline grabber”

58
14 Mar 2022, 5:32 pm
#7
Just to put this in context and what the priorities are for Andy Burnham, recently someone went into a Transport for Greater Manchester travel shop for ask for a bus map, but the only maps that were available were cycle maps.
IRHardy
14 Mar 2022, 5:32 pm #7

Just to put this in context and what the priorities are for Andy Burnham, recently someone went into a Transport for Greater Manchester travel shop for ask for a bus map, but the only maps that were available were cycle maps.

4707
14 Mar 2022, 5:43 pm
#8
(14 Mar 2022, 5:32 pm)IRHardy Just to put this in context and what the priorities are for Andy Burnham, recently someone went into a Transport for Greater Manchester travel shop for ask for a bus map, but the only maps that were available were cycle maps.

In fairness that's harsh criticism you wouldn't find a bus network map up either but that's irrelevant as we don't even have travel shops to ask in.

I don't blame them for printing them either as by the time they were printed no doubt someone would have made a change and they'd be wrong. I wouldn't want to know what version they'd be on if they were done up here but in the last 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if it would be approaching triple figures.
Storx
14 Mar 2022, 5:43 pm #8

(14 Mar 2022, 5:32 pm)IRHardy Just to put this in context and what the priorities are for Andy Burnham, recently someone went into a Transport for Greater Manchester travel shop for ask for a bus map, but the only maps that were available were cycle maps.

In fairness that's harsh criticism you wouldn't find a bus network map up either but that's irrelevant as we don't even have travel shops to ask in.

I don't blame them for printing them either as by the time they were printed no doubt someone would have made a change and they'd be wrong. I wouldn't want to know what version they'd be on if they were done up here but in the last 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if it would be approaching triple figures.

570
14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm
#9
(14 Mar 2022, 4:27 pm)busmanT I’m not convinced they have, £2 announced as the “headline grabber”

Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster
DeltaMan
14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm #9

(14 Mar 2022, 4:27 pm)busmanT I’m not convinced they have, £2 announced as the “headline grabber”

Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster

646
14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm
#10
(14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm)DeltaMan Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster
Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.

Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.
RobinHood
14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm #10

(14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm)DeltaMan Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster
Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.

Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.

4707
14 Mar 2022, 9:38 pm
#11
(14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm)RobinHood Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.


Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.

The thing is, is it really that cheap? All the operators right now have day tickets at £5.30 or thereabouts. For someone doing a return that's only £1.30 less. For someone making 3 or more journeys in a day it's actually 70p more if the £6 cap is true.

Pick up a few punters who are doing one way journeys and you'll quickly make that £1.30 up.

Also on London point, it has one of the lowest public spend towards public transport in the world for major cities.
Storx
14 Mar 2022, 9:38 pm #11

(14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm)RobinHood Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.


Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.

The thing is, is it really that cheap? All the operators right now have day tickets at £5.30 or thereabouts. For someone doing a return that's only £1.30 less. For someone making 3 or more journeys in a day it's actually 70p more if the £6 cap is true.

Pick up a few punters who are doing one way journeys and you'll quickly make that £1.30 up.

Also on London point, it has one of the lowest public spend towards public transport in the world for major cities.

16 Mar 2022, 10:58 pm
#12
(14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm)busmanT If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.

£4 per day or £16 a week is being quoted in their BSIP document. Page 80 - section 5.6: https://democracy.greatermanchester-
ca.gov.uk/documents/s17274/15a%20Appendix%202%20Greater%20Manchester%20Bus%20Service%20Improvement%20Plan.pdf

It's not a million miles off what GNE charge for a Tyne and Wear weekly ticket now, but without the complexity of needing different tickets for different operators, the inability of having your fare capped at the cheapest option, and so on.

(14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm)DeltaMan Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster

How does that equate to him pulling a fast one? All local authorities were instructed by the Government to work with operators in drawing up 'ambitious' bus service improvement plans to fulfil the requirements of their National Bus Strategy. Manchester, along with Transport North East and other LTAs have done just that, so I'd suggest the only 'fast one' being pulled is if the Govt don't put their money where their mouth is.

As much as people will point the finger at Burnham/Greater Manchester and hope they fail, it's going to be a big case of people in glass houses. Bus networks everywhere are going to fall flat on their arse without proper Government funding going forward.

(14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm)RobinHood Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.

Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.

I agree it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. I also think the legal case is important, because in the absence of an Enhanced Partnership not working for them (and we both know it won't without proper funding), I think more LTAs will look towards franchising as an option. There's legal precedent now, so without a solid new argument, operators won't have a challenge for it.

The question of 'unsustainable cheap' is a good one, and I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with 'unsustainably expensive'. Bus fares have risen faster than inflation for years and years, even through the best part of a decade of pay restraint from 2010. A lot of people have been priced out of public transport and into private cars, and really there's been very little enterprising in response to that. It's only been the last couple of years we've started to see some decent work done on fares and offers, and even at that, it's from a minority of operators.

As I said above, I think there'll be a lot of people hoping for Burnham/Greater Manchester to fail, but what you describe in your final paragraph is almost testament to almost four decades of private ownership. It's failed the public it serves, and unless we get that BSIP windfall from Government, we've got our own funding crisis to deal with.

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Adrian
16 Mar 2022, 10:58 pm #12

(14 Mar 2022, 3:35 pm)busmanT If he follows the "London" model (which he keeps mentioning) the daily cap will be £6 (3 x single trip fare) and the weekly cap will be £28.20 (4.7 x daily cap).
That will be a big fare increase for many passengers if he follows the "London" model.

£4 per day or £16 a week is being quoted in their BSIP document. Page 80 - section 5.6: https://democracy.greatermanchester-
ca.gov.uk/documents/s17274/15a%20Appendix%202%20Greater%20Manchester%20Bus%20Service%20Improvement%20Plan.pdf

It's not a million miles off what GNE charge for a Tyne and Wear weekly ticket now, but without the complexity of needing different tickets for different operators, the inability of having your fare capped at the cheapest option, and so on.

(14 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm)DeltaMan Burnham has pulled a bit of a fast one here. The £2 is reliant on BSIP funding. He knows if he doesn't get a settlement then its a proper dust up with Westminster

How does that equate to him pulling a fast one? All local authorities were instructed by the Government to work with operators in drawing up 'ambitious' bus service improvement plans to fulfil the requirements of their National Bus Strategy. Manchester, along with Transport North East and other LTAs have done just that, so I'd suggest the only 'fast one' being pulled is if the Govt don't put their money where their mouth is.

As much as people will point the finger at Burnham/Greater Manchester and hope they fail, it's going to be a big case of people in glass houses. Bus networks everywhere are going to fall flat on their arse without proper Government funding going forward.

(14 Mar 2022, 8:12 pm)RobinHood Some areas have been told in advance what their BSIP allocations will be. Manchester probably know.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Cheap fares, means less revenue, means local tax payer needs to contribute more. If it generates demand, then more resources needed to move that demand, which in turn will only be viable if a specific level of increased demand is met.

There is headline cheap and then unsustainable cheap, fear this is the latter.

Unfortunately, people see London as the pinnacle of how it should be, yet don't realise how much Central Gov funding is needed (even pre-COVID) to support the operation. Burnham won't have that Central pot to bail him out.

Short term, expect lots of high fives and positive news. After a few years, cutbacks, curtailments etc after the initial funding pool dries up and they need to balance the books.

I agree it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. I also think the legal case is important, because in the absence of an Enhanced Partnership not working for them (and we both know it won't without proper funding), I think more LTAs will look towards franchising as an option. There's legal precedent now, so without a solid new argument, operators won't have a challenge for it.

The question of 'unsustainable cheap' is a good one, and I suppose that goes hand-in-hand with 'unsustainably expensive'. Bus fares have risen faster than inflation for years and years, even through the best part of a decade of pay restraint from 2010. A lot of people have been priced out of public transport and into private cars, and really there's been very little enterprising in response to that. It's only been the last couple of years we've started to see some decent work done on fares and offers, and even at that, it's from a minority of operators.

As I said above, I think there'll be a lot of people hoping for Burnham/Greater Manchester to fail, but what you describe in your final paragraph is almost testament to almost four decades of private ownership. It's failed the public it serves, and unless we get that BSIP windfall from Government, we've got our own funding crisis to deal with.


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