(06 Jan 2020, 9:10 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Why not? GNE is way better than Stagecoach. Yes, I know about Magic Buses and Stagecoach buying out all their competitors, what about it?They couldn't force GNE out. Depends what Stagecoach territory is, the West Road could be seen as Stagecoach territory, the 685 is even shared with Arriva, yet GNE introduced the new expresses in 2013.

As it makes no sense from a business point of view.

Lets say Stagecoach made £100k in the West End and £100k in Gateshead per year. If GNE decide I want to take £50k to take from the West End. Stagecoach's first reaction will be well I want £50k from GNE in Gateshead to make this up.

Now as you've got competition the first thing you will do is have a price war so now both Stagecoach will have £40k in both the West End and Gateshead and the same for GNE. -£20k each. You've also got the issue that Stagecoach and GNE now both have a new depot to run these buses, twice as many buses thus more wages, more maintence. Not the mention the money you've spent to setup the routes.

In the end you've now both lost money for the sake of nothing. That's why.

(06 Jan 2020, 8:27 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote As Tyne & Wear has the Network 1 Day Rover, there are no ticketing issues, passengers can travel on all buses and the Metro, both multi-operator and multi-modal. This needs to be extended to Northumberland, County Durham and Teesside, but just multi-operator, not multi-modal is there is no Metro service available!  

The West Road needs fewer buses, and that means fewer Stagecoach buses, as GNE only have the X84/X85 and likewise Arriva only has the 685. Stagecoach has 7 bus services passing through Denton Burn! I would scrap the 6, 7 and 8 anyway, they are unreliable and serve no really purpose. I would also curtail the 32/32A to Benwell. We certainly don't want large numbers of buses carrying fresh air! The Little Coasters had new buses, as indiGo North Tyne, GNE rather stupidly put older buses on Little Coasters, no idea why! The operators should not and moreover should not have any need to compete via petty games, if they are reliable they will succeed! GNE could wipe the floor with Stagecoach in the West End if they introduced new services, which Stagecoach never does. Admittedly Stagecoach is on the up with features like WiFi and NSAs, but reliability is sorely lacking, especially on the expresses. Competition forces bus operators to ensure buses run on time, reliably (not breaking down!) and with all the features passengers want (even if that is just a comfortable seat, or a clean, tidy bus). GNE actually does very well in their own territories, without any competition, likewise Stagecoach can do well even without any competition, but sometimes they just don't bother, as they don't have to! Arriva gave up on their bus network a long time ago, they should be sold and improved!

No good if you're travelling beyond or in to T&W though.
Those tickets aren't accepted beyond the T&W border and there's a significant population living in SE Northumberland, Durham and Tees Valley who use multiple operators for whatever reason.

In my opinion, schemes such as Network One should be scrapped in favour of a capping system. So, it gives you the flexibility of having to just pay for the modes that you've used that day, it also allows customers to not "waste" unused days or modes on their existing season tickets.

Competition between operators isn't the answer. Business isn't a war and shouldn't be treated as such. What needs to happen is that the transport operators put their heads together and bring about a solution for attracting more customers - sometimes, a new management team is the answer to bring people committed and passionate about such a strategy.

(07 Jan 2020, 11:57 am)omnicity4659 wrote In my opinion, schemes such as Network One should be scrapped in favour of a capping system. So, it gives you the flexibility of having to just pay for the modes that you've used that day, it also allows customers to not "waste" unused days or modes on their existing season tickets.

Competition between operators isn't the answer. Business isn't a war and shouldn't be treated as such. What needs to happen is that the transport operators put their heads together and bring about a solution for attracting more customers - sometimes, a new management team is the answer to bring people committed and passionate about such a strategy.

I disagree that a capping system would be any better. The price would likely end up going up from what we have now. 
There is no way that GNE would set their daily cap the same price as a single ticket between Gateshead and Metrocentre, which is what I pay per day for my All Zone monthly ticket!
If we take into account that on an average week I will use the bus for 6 out of 7 days, that still averages out at £3.65 a day. Better yet, if I only use it on average 4 times a week, that's £5.48 a day, only slightly more than a single journey on the X21.

Competition always has been, and always will be the answer to having a better service for the consumer.

The thing is in just about any other industry, collaboration between competitors would be seen as highly frowned upon and seen as anti-competitive
Now, I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but I think letting the operators work together to bring a 'solution' is only going to end up making things worse and probably end up with a price fixing scandal

Price fixing
You must not discuss the prices you’re going to charge your customers with your competitors.

You’ll be breaking the law if you agree with another business:

• to charge the same prices to your customers
  
• to offer discounts or increase your prices at the same time
  
• to charge the same fees to intermediaries, for example retailers selling your products
  

And when GNE and Arriva agreed to not compete in each other's territories they were in breach of Market Sharing rules. Obviously there will be no evidence to back it up, but I'd be very surprised if this wasn't still going on between the SNE, ANE and GNE, at least in an unofficial capacity.

Market sharing
You cannot agree with other businesses to share markets or customers. You’ll be breaking competition law if you agree with another business:

• not to approach each other’s customers
  
• not to compete with them for customers, for example in specific locations
  

(07 Jan 2020, 12:57 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I disagree that a capping system would be any better. The price would likely end up going up from what we have now. 
There is no way that GNE would set their daily cap the same price as a single ticket between Gateshead and Metrocentre, which is what I pay per day for my All Zone monthly ticket!
If we take into account that on an average week I will use the bus for 6 out of 7 days, that still averages out at £3.65 a day. Better yet, if I only use it on average 4 times a week, that's £5.48 a day, only slightly more than a single journey on the X21.

Competition always has been, and always will be the answer to having a better service for the consumer.

The thing is in just about any other industry, collaboration between competitors would be seen as highly frowned upon and seen as anti-competitive
Now, I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but I think letting the operators work together to bring a 'solution' is only going to end up making things worse and probably end up with a price fixing scandal


And when GNE and Arriva agreed to not compete in each other's territories they were in breach of Market Sharing rules. Obviously there will be no evidence to back it up, but I'd be very surprised if this wasn't still going on between the SNE, ANE and GNE, at least in an unofficial capacity.

I disagree, surely competition for the market is better than competition in the market?  Up here, the market isn't big enough imo for on-road competition, and ultimately no one wins.

Market sharing, or 'territories' for want of a better word of course exists.  It would be commercial suicide for GNE to take SCNE on in the West End for example.  This doesn't just happen in the bus industry.  As an example; there aren't too many places where Ryanair and Easyjet go head to head, they tend to stick to their own hubs.

(07 Jan 2020, 12:57 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I disagree that a capping system would be any better. The price would likely end up going up from what we have now. 
There is no way that GNE would set their daily cap the same price as a single ticket between Gateshead and Metrocentre, which is what I pay per day for my All Zone monthly ticket!
If we take into account that on an average week I will use the bus for 6 out of 7 days, that still averages out at £3.65 a day. Better yet, if I only use it on average 4 times a week, that's £5.48 a day, only slightly more than a single journey on the X21.

Competition always has been, and always will be the answer to having a better service for the consumer. 

The thing is in just about any other industry, collaboration between competitors would be seen as highly frowned upon and seen as anti-competitive
Now, I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, but I think letting the operators work together to bring a 'solution' is only going to end up making things worse and probably end up with a price fixing scandal


And when GNE and Arriva agreed to not compete in each other's territories they were in breach of Market Sharing rules. Obviously there will be no evidence to back it up, but I'd be very surprised if this wasn't still going on between the SNE, ANE and GNE, at least in an unofficial capacity.

I know you've said in the past that you like a good troll now and again, but really? 

Care to share any examples of competition benefiting the consumer - whether this is related to public transport or not.

We could look at the bus wars seen on and off since 86.
We could look at the continual bail-out of private firms on the ECML and lack of competition on key sections of the route.
We could look at the aggressive buy-out of smaller bus ops and associated agreements stopping the firms re-appearing under another guise for x number of years.

I could go on, but would love to know if you really are trolling or not.

(07 Jan 2020, 4:01 pm)Andreos1 wrote I know you've said in the past that you like a good troll now and again, but really? 

Care to share any examples of competition benefiting the consumer - whether this is related to public transport or not.

We could look at the bus wars seen on and off since 86.
We could look at the continual bail-out of private firms on the ECML and lack of competition on key sections of the route.
We could look at the aggressive buy-out of smaller bus ops and associated agreements stopping the firms re-appearing under another guise for x number of years.

I could go on, but would love to know if you really are trolling or not.

I do love a good troll, but in this case I am not trolling.

The issues that you mentioned regarding the bus wars and the buy outs aren't issues with competition, they are issues with anti-competitive practices by larger companies.
And as I've said in the past, the issues with the ECML aren't necessarily issues with the private firms, but the way the franchise system works. Operators are essentially required to lie about what benefits they will bring if they operate the line, because they know if they don't lie, one of the other operators will and get the franchise instead. This is why we've seen the likes of Virgin not able to meet the targets they said they could, not because they weren't doing well, but because they had to exaggerate so much it would be impossible for any operator to meet them!

As for with competition benefiting the consumer, I am also a fan of technology, so I can give an example with that, although I don't know if this is necessarily the place for it. (Also, I'm heavily simplifying things otherwise I could literally write pages!)
Anywho, there are two main CPU manufacturers, AMD and Intel. For the past decade or so, AMD haven't been able to produce any CPUs that are competitive with Intel's offerings, so instead of launching new products, they've essentially been releasing the same product over and over again (albeit with minor alterations). So we've been stuck on CPUs with 4 cores, Intel said that it was impossible for them to add more into the same size product, they essentially had no competition. Then recently AMD came along and launched their Ryzen CPUs with double the cores that Intel could offer, at a much lower price.
Pretty soon after, Intel released a product they previously said was impossible, a 6 core CPU. Skip forward another year, and Intel released an 8 core CPU, once again something they said was impossible. 
For workstation CPUs, Intel released an 18 core around the same time AMD released a 16 core, but for double the price. The next year, Intel re-released the same CPU again with a different name, but AMD released a 32 core for less than the price of Intel's 18 core. This year, Intel re-released essentially the same CPU again but for half the price in order to compete with AMD's much better, and lower price offerings. Meanwhile, the same day AMD released another 16 core CPU, this time on their consumer platform (the one that previously had 8 cores) which outperforms Intel's 18 core offering.
I think it's fair to say, in this situation, if Intel didn't have the competition from AMD, we would still be stuck on 4 core CPUs like we had been for the past 8 years. In 2016 Intel had around 80% marketshare, now they're down to 65% marketshare.

(07 Jan 2020, 4:01 pm)Andreos1 wrote I know you've said in the past that you like a good troll now and again, but really? 

Care to share any examples of competition benefiting the consumer - whether this is related to public transport or not.

We could look at the bus wars seen on and off since 86.
We could look at the continual bail-out of private firms on the ECML and lack of competition on key sections of the route.
We could look at the aggressive buy-out of smaller bus ops and associated agreements stopping the firms re-appearing under another guise for x number of years.

I could go on, but would love to know if you really are trolling or not.

Competition benefits the customer, and in my opinion companies should not running scared of each other! They are the big three, not small companies who can be easily wiped out like all those years ago when Busways/Stagecoach bought out all the competition. Fair enough three lots of buses going the same way is not ideal from a traffic congestion point of view, and maybe commercially they will each make less revenue but if they can manage it on some routes, why not others? For example in the West End, they manage it both in Denton Burn/Fenham (West Road) and in Gosforth, only the areas in between are 'Stagecoach territory', even then we have the secured 84A in Slatyford/Fenham and the Northumberland secured 74 operating through Westerhope, Slatyford and Cowgate. I am in no way saying we need a regular service from all three operators, the 74 has been a lifeline, not having to pay Stagecoach and GNE to go to Gateshead for example. The X84/X85 are far less frequent than Stagecoach along the West Road, but for going to Gateshead they are what I need! When GNE operated the secured 32A I sometimes used that for going to GNE territory, or even Wallsend and Cobalt where Stagecoach also operates, but I prefer GNE. 

Nexus secured bus service which are operated by the big three provide some competition, those operated by small independents  provide a choice, but not serious competition, such as for more useful tickets enabling longer distance commutes.

An infrequent service is better than nothing, and surely wouldn't start a bus war, involving petty games!

Yes, airlines have their own territories, but they don't claim to be competing!

(07 Jan 2020, 5:36 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Biggest competition Busways seen was against Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company.  Guess what. It was GNE at the time that bought TWOC and not Busways. 
Competition benefits the customer, and in my opinion companies should not running scared of each other! They are the big three, not small companies who can be easily wiped out like all those years ago when Busways/Stagecoach bought out all the competition. Fair enough three lots of buses going the same way is not ideal from a traffic congestion point of view, and maybe commercially they will each make less revenue but if they can manage it on some routes, why not others? For example in the West End, they manage it both in Denton Burn/Fenham (West Road) and in Gosforth, only the areas in between are 'Stagecoach territory', even then we have the secured 84A in Slatyford/Fenham and the Northumberland secured 74 operating through Westerhope, Slatyford and Cowgate. I am in no way saying we need a regular service from all three operators, the 74 has been a lifeline, not having to pay Stagecoach and GNE to go to Gateshead for example. The X84/X85 are far less frequent than Stagecoach along the West Road, but for going to Gateshead they are what I need! When GNE operated the secured 32A I sometimes used that for going to GNE territory, or even Wallsend and Cobalt where Stagecoach also operates, but I prefer GNE. 

Nexus secured bus service which are operated by the big three provide some competition, those operated by small independents  provide a choice, but not serious competition, such as for more useful tickets enabling longer distance commutes.

An infrequent service is better than nothing, and surely wouldn't start a bus war, involving petty games!

Yes, airlines have their own territories, but they don't claim to be competing!

Today's bus companies and big and strong. GNE could easily introduce one service in Stagecoach territory, likewise Stagecoach in GNE territory (they already serve Gateshead High Street and Metrocentre) without any problems. This is not an unfair attack on Stagecoach, they are just too dominant in the West End overall, but they are not the only bus operator just the most convenient, so that's fine. I would like to see new Stagecoach routes introduced, to North Shields and further into Gateshead would be sensible as they already serve Gateshead a bit and go to Cobalt, so North Shields could be a sensible extension. I am sure they could take on Arriva in Gosforth too, and possibly run a bus to Stamfordham, which only has the 74, as they already operate along Stamfordham Road, they could easily introduce an extension to so many trips all the way along Stamfordham Road and through Stamfordham. I hope the 74 continues to exist, but it could be supplemented by an extended Stagecoach trip, improving transport links for the people of Stamfordham. I can't find anywhere when the 74 will next be reviewed by Northumberland County Council.

(07 Jan 2020, 4:30 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I do love a good troll, but in this case I am not trolling.

The issues that you mentioned regarding the bus wars and the buy outs aren't issues with competition, they are issues with anti-competitive practices by larger companies.  
And as I've said in the past, the issues with the ECML aren't necessarily issues with the private firms, but the way the franchise system works. Operators are essentially required to lie about what benefits they will bring if they operate the line, because they know if they don't lie, one of the other operators will and get the franchise instead. This is why we've seen the likes of Virgin not able to meet the targets they said they could, not because they weren't doing well, but because they had to exaggerate so much it would be impossible for any operator to meet them!

As for with competition benefiting the consumer, I am also a fan of technology, so I can give an example with that, although I don't know if this is necessarily the place for it. (Also, I'm heavily simplifying things otherwise I could literally write pages!)
Anywho, there are two main CPU manufacturers, AMD and Intel. For the past decade or so, AMD haven't been able to produce any CPUs that are competitive with Intel's offerings, so instead of launching new products, they've essentially been releasing the same product over and over again (albeit with minor alterations). So we've been stuck on CPUs with 4 cores, Intel said that it was impossible for them to add more into the same size product, they essentially had no competition. Then recently AMD came along and launched their Ryzen CPUs with double the cores that Intel could offer, at a much lower price.
Pretty soon after, Intel released a product they previously said was impossible, a 6 core CPU. Skip forward another year, and Intel released an 8 core CPU, once again something they said was impossible. 
For workstation CPUs, Intel released an 18 core around the same time AMD released a 16 core, but for double the price. The next year, Intel re-released the same CPU again with a different name, but AMD released a 32 core for less than the price of Intel's 18 core. This year, Intel re-released essentially the same CPU again but for half the price in order to compete with AMD's much better, and lower price offerings. Meanwhile, the same day AMD released another 16 core CPU, this time on their consumer platform (the one that previously had 8 cores) which outperforms Intel's 18 core offering.
I think it's fair to say, in this situation, if Intel didn't have the competition from AMD, we would still be stuck on 4 core CPUs like we had been for the past 8 years. In 2016 Intel had around 80% marketshare, now they're down to 65% marketshare.

So now you're saying anti-competitive practices, aren't to do with competition?
Yet fail to mention that one doesn't exist without the other...

Any further examples of competition always benefiting consumers?

(07 Jan 2020, 6:31 pm)Andreos1 wrote So now you're saying anti-competitive practices, aren't to do with competition?
Yet fail to mention that one doesn't exist without the other...

Any further examples of competition always benefiting consumers?

What I'm saying is the anti competitive practices are causing lack of competition

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(07 Jan 2020, 5:36 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Competition benefits the customer, and in my opinion companies should not running scared of each other! They are the big three, not small companies who can be easily wiped out like all those years ago when Busways/Stagecoach bought out all the competition. Fair enough three lots of buses going the same way is not ideal from a traffic congestion point of view, and maybe commercially they will each make less revenue but if they can manage it on some routes, why not others? For example in the West End, they manage it both in Denton Burn/Fenham (West Road) and in Gosforth, only the areas in between are 'Stagecoach territory', even then we have the secured 84A in Slatyford/Fenham and the Northumberland secured 74 operating through Westerhope, Slatyford and Cowgate. I am in no way saying we need a regular service from all three operators, the 74 has been a lifeline, not having to pay Stagecoach and GNE to go to Gateshead for example. The X84/X85 are far less frequent than Stagecoach along the West Road, but for going to Gateshead they are what I need! When GNE operated the secured 32A I sometimes used that for going to GNE territory, or even Wallsend and Cobalt where Stagecoach also operates, but I prefer GNE. 

Nexus secured bus service which are operated by the big three provide some competition, those operated by small independents  provide a choice, but not serious competition, such as for more useful tickets enabling longer distance commutes.

An infrequent service is better than nothing, and surely wouldn't start a bus war, involving petty games!

Yes, airlines have their own territories, but they don't claim to be competing!

And who did Goahead sell TWOC to?

Competition can only work when there's enough demand. If there's not enough demand and there's not enough of a market, then not all of the competing companies will survive.
Vis a vis if there's nothing to attract competition.

---

(07 Jan 2020, 6:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote What I'm saying is the anti competitive practices are causing lack of competition

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You can't have one without the other though. 
How many bus wars etc existed within the bus industry?

I just wonder where all the drivers and the spare vehicles would come from to create these extra services?

(07 Jan 2020, 6:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote What I'm saying is the anti competitive practices are causing lack of competition

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The bus industry probably have some of the biggest competition out of any industry around. Difference is they're not with each other. The competition for buses is cars, taxis, rail etc.

Do you really think if there was more competition therefore less revenue, more drivers, more buses, more costs to run the service they'd be investing in new buses. All you'll end up with is 10 or so main bus routes with brand new buses, all the mod cons etc and petty competition. Then the less desirable bus routes with fares through the roof, old buses, running not on time and not running past 7pm as people won't use them and will be all driving.

Been reading the latest fleetnews on GNE website. Whats the situation with these rail replacement coaches, do they return to the NE every week for repairs etc or do they remain down Peterborough?

Ironically, by competing there would be no competition! For example, if Stagecoach operated throughout Gateshead rather than just the High Street, I might decide to use Stagecoach instead of using GNE's X84/X85 to stick to one company. As I prefer GNE, I would still use them regardless, but for arguments sake, if there was a REAL choice, I could turn my back on GNE and choose Stagecoach, particularly if the fares were cheaper on Stagecoach and they had NSAs. All very well saying GNE won't introduce a service in the West End for commercial reasons (strange they did in Denton Burn!), but at least with GNE I can stick to just them as they serve more places than Stagecoach, and DO operate in the West End (42A, 74, Q3, X84/X85). Doesn't have to be a frequent, threatening service, just to give people the choice...As I can't stick to Stagecoach, I use GNE - this wouldn't be possible if the 42A, 74, Q3, X84/X85 didn't exist in the West End.

(06 Jan 2020, 10:17 pm)Citaro5326 wrote On buses magazine it says X9/X10 will be receiving a newer upgrade but i think B5s will go on if they do. Big risk of putting 6308-6314 on X84/85.

Hopefully X84/X85 goes double decker and gets newer buses when it goes X-lines.
I don't use the X9/X10 but the buses are quite new on there already, still nice to see GNE continuing to invest. They going X-lines?

(07 Jan 2020, 8:56 pm)OrangeArrow49 wrote Hopefully X84/X85 goes double decker and gets newer buses when it goes X-lines.
I don't use the X9/X10 but the buses are quite new on there already, still nice to see GNE continuing to invest. They going X-lines?

In the coach and bus mag, MG confirmed, they were looking at new buses for the X9/X10, if that was to go ahead, the X84/X85 would get the B5's.

(07 Jan 2020, 8:59 pm)Michael wrote In the coach and bus mag, MG confirmed, they were looking at new buses for the X9/X10, if that was to go ahead, the X84/X85 would get the B5's.

So the B5s would be X-lines branded for the X84/X85 (orange rear?) and the X9/X10 would get new buses and join the X-lines brand? I guess services X84/X85 will be sticking around for a while then? Hopefully they continue to serve Denton Burn!

What about the Citaros and Solos currently operating the X84/X85? Where could they go?

(07 Jan 2020, 8:02 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Been reading the latest fleetnews on GNE website. Whats the situation with these rail replacement coaches, do they return to the NE every week for repairs etc or do they remain down Peterborough?

I think all but 1 have stayed down there, the 1 coming back acting as the shuttle to bring the drivers back.

I'm on one of the Durham Diamond Streetlites and just noticed the backs of some of the seats have what look like screw caps on the back of them. Does anyone know what the reason for these are?

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(08 Jan 2020, 5:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I'm on one of the Durham Diamond Streetlites and just noticed the backs of some of the seats have what look like screw caps on the back of them. Does anyone know what the reason for these are?

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To make it look like the seats are pulling a frown?

(08 Jan 2020, 6:14 pm)deanmachine wrote To make it look like the seats are pulling a frown?

Thanks, now I can't unsee it!

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Does anyone know if you can use a GNE All Zone ticket on the 86 service that GNE run in an evening from Bishop? Customer services don't even know it exists

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(08 Jan 2020, 7:13 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Does anyone know if you can use a GNE All Zone ticket on the 86 service that GNE run in an evening from Bishop? Customer services don't even know it exists

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Didnt know there was one...

(08 Jan 2020, 7:17 pm)JP6004 wrote Didnt know there was one...

Yep, they do three evening 86 services to Toft Hill. No mention of it anywhere online though, just the timetable at the stop and on the app

I know you can't use it on the 40D but they at least tell you that on the website

*Update*
You can indeed use an all zone ticket on the 86D

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(08 Jan 2020, 5:55 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I'm on one of the Durham Diamond Streetlites and just noticed the backs of some of the seats have what look like screw caps on the back of them. Does anyone know what the reason for these are?

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At a guess, to allow access to the USB port workings.

(08 Jan 2020, 7:17 pm)JP6004 wrote Didnt know there was one...

https://bustimes.org/services/86-bishop-...-toft-hill

(08 Jan 2020, 9:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote https://bustimes.org/services/86-bishop-...-toft-hill

The journeys are inside the Arriva 86 printed timetable.