Some deckers and minis coming I believe, but the Omnicities won't be going. As someone said, plenty of life left in them.

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(07 Mar 2020, 6:40 pm)scanialover wrote Short answer probably not. More practical answer, why not try and keep some of the fleet we have on the road! We read quite regularly throuugh these pages of the problems being faced by the depots which, to me, seems indicative that not enough is been spent in terms of parts and maintainance.

On the theme of new vehicles, replacement of the Scania's, 46xx must be overdue/imminent? These have seen sterling and demanding service across the network; 63's out of Dormanstown, then on the X93's before ending up where they are now,; the X66/67 services could, for sure, use something better.

The Scanias were originally at Durham. Think they are fine for the X66 myself.

Plenty of life left in them ? I'd like to think so as they are probably, next to getting a fit Pulsar, my favourite vehicle. Ours though have, and are getting a hard life. What about giving them a thorough makeover? Internally with new seating, externally - back into standard Arriva and then a thorough mechanical check.

(07 Mar 2020, 7:53 pm)mb134 wrote Looking at bustimes, these are the vehicles currently 'long term' VOR throughout the Durham County operation. For the sake of this I've classed long term as 5+ days, though there may be non-mechanical reasons for spells off the road for that period of time. 

1416
1447
1463
1560
1563
1571
1592
1607
1612
2823
2830
2862
4650
4705
7421
7423
7425
7426
7456

19 buses out of a fleet of nearly 300 vehicles. That's 6% of vehicles - from memory I believe companies generally have a spare percentage of around 10%. 

Of note is that, out of those VOR, you have 6 Streetlites and only 1 Scania. 

Aware that this is a fairly crude and simplistic way of looking at it, but on the face of it there doesn't seem to be a problem with vehicle availability.

Depots at any one time have 2 vehicles off for annual MOT prep and presentation. They are normally off for a full week, so that list will include up to 14 vehicles that aren't long term VOR.

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(07 Mar 2020, 6:49 pm)Jimmi wrote I would have thought something must be due to be purchased this year, most likely for Northumbria depots considering everything will have to be Euro 6 in Newcastle next year.

After it was mentioned the other day that GNE can't upgrade their Euro 5 StreetLite Micro-Hybrids without replacing the engine's, surely it will be the same issue with 1574-1589? Would imagine those could all end up somewhere within Durham County with either new stock or Pulsar's taking their place.

All of the Jesmond based Streetlites are already Euro6 converted, they were done early on.

(07 Mar 2020, 8:29 pm)RobinHood wrote Depots at any one time have 2 vehicles off for annual MOT prep and presentation. They are normally off for a full week, so that list will include up to 14 vehicles that aren't long term VOR.

True, long term VOR was probably poor phrasing but MOT prep vehicles further add to the point that vehicle availability generally isn't too bad. I'm aware depots generally do a fair amount of vehicle inspections per week too as part of preventative maintenance, which further aids reliability. 

As was pointed out in the GNE thread the other day, preventative maintenance is being pushed even further now so in the near future we should see even bigger improvements in vehicle availability.

(07 Mar 2020, 6:49 pm)Jimmi wrote I would have thought something must be due to be purchased this year, most likely for Northumbria depots considering everything will have to be Euro 6 in Newcastle next year.

After it was mentioned the other day that GNE can't upgrade their Euro 5 StreetLite Micro-Hybrids without replacing the engine's, surely it will be the same issue with 1574-1589? Would imagine those could all end up somewhere within Durham County with either new stock or Pulsar's taking their place.

I'd imagine if the new vehicles go to Northumbria, they'll most likely do the following as a starting point:

- 12x E400MMC (ZF) for X21 / X22 (or maybe do a full batch of 16x incl 1x spare if a suitable use can be found for the classic Sapphire E400s).

- 7541-51 to Blyth for the 308 (incl 1x spare).

- 7552 stays at Ashington as the 2nd X21 / X22 spare.

Would make sense as the E400 is more suited to a ZF gearbox if used on the X21 / X22 whereas Voith gearboxes are better suited on the likes of the 308. Plus, Blyth already operate the Cummins ISB / Voith combination in the VDL Geminis so would also provide some form of commonality.

(07 Mar 2020, 8:38 pm)L469 YVK wrote I'd imagine if the new vehicles go to Northumbria, they'll most likely do the following as a starting point:

- 12x E400MMC (ZF) for X21 / X22 (or maybe do a full batch of 16x incl 1x spare if a suitable use can be found for the classic Sapphire E400s).

- 7541-51 to Blyth for the 308 (incl 1x spare).

- 7552 stays at Ashington as the 2nd X21 / X22 spare.

Would make sense as the E400 is more suited to a ZF gearbox if used on the X21 / X22 whereas Voith gearboxes are better suited on the likes of the 308. Plus, Blyth already operate the Cummins ISB / Voith combination in the VDL Geminis so would also provide some form of commonality.

If new vehicles are on the table, I don't imagine they'll be replacing the Euro6 compliant MMCs (or the upgradeable 7524-8) on the X21/22. 

11-12 year old E400s on the Morpeth express routes is likely a more pressing concern. They've got a decent amount of life left in them, however it'll be a much happier life for everyone involved if that's on the Jesmond routes replacing the ageing B7TLs.

Surely any new buses will more than likely be:

Minibuses for the 46, 51 and 55, highly doubt they'll upgrade 12 year old solos (if you even can).
Deckers for the 306 maybe or the Morpeth expresses but if the Micro Streelites rumour is true Jesmond need something to replace them on the 52 and 54 and I can't imagine it being a downgrade. You also have the 3 Commanders at Blyth, Scanias at Ashington and Jesmond and B7TL's which I highly doubt will be upgraded so imagine they'll be focused on them.

No way will the X21/X22 get new buses again. The X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, 306, 308, X14, X15, X16 and X18 are all as equal importance if not more (X10, X11, 308) than them and will get new buses before them. It's stupid sending a few buses to Blyth to replace a few VDL's which will have no-where to go thereselves. I can imagine most of Blyth being renewed at the same time which won't be this year. The best thing they could do at Blyth is have an open fleet with branding for everything or nothing since nothing stays on the same route anyway (which is a good thing). Rather than X7 buses on the X10, X10 buses on the 308 and 308 buses on the X10 which happens daily.

(07 Mar 2020, 8:44 pm)mb134 wrote If new vehicles are on the table, I don't imagine they'll be replacing the Euro6 compliant MMCs (or the upgradeable 7524-8) on the X21/22. 

11-12 year old E400s on the Morpeth express routes is likely a more pressing concern. They've got a decent amount of life left in them, however it'll be a much happier life for everyone involved if that's on the Jesmond routes replacing the ageing B7TLs.

I still don't get why the X21/X22 is seen as such a favourable route for investment on here considering there's other routes in the North East that are equally or even more deserving of new stock than that is.

Could see some newer stuff for the X18 and maybe X15 (hopefully) and cascade the MAX E400s to 35, X14 & X20 and older examples elsewhere too, likely Belmont to see off Lowlanders and Volvo B7TLs - saying that though, IMO Belmont could do with some Sapphire spec double deckers as there's not really enough to meet PVRs for the Sapphire routes now, especially since there's now a booked decker working on one of Belmont's 7 boards on weekdays - in an ideal world, would be great if all 7 boards were double deckers during the daytime.

(07 Mar 2020, 9:00 pm)Storx wrote Surely any new buses will more than likely be:

Minibuses for the 46, 51 and 55, highly doubt they'll upgrade 12 year old solos (if you even can).
Deckers for the 306 maybe or the Morpeth expresses but if the Micro Streelites rumour is true Jesmond need something to replace them on the 52 and 54 and I can't imagine it being a downgrade. You also have the 3 Commanders at Blyth, Scanias at Ashington and Jesmond and B7TL's which I highly doubt will be upgraded so imagine they'll be focused on them.

No way will the X21/X22 get new buses again. The X7, X8, X9, X10, X11, 306, 308, X14, X15, X16 and X18 are all as equal importance if not more (X10, X11, 308) than them and will get new buses before them. It's stupid sending a few buses to Blyth to replace a few VDL's which will have no-where to go thereselves. I can imagine most of Blyth being renewed at the same time which won't be this year. The best thing they could do at Blyth is have an open fleet with branding for everything or nothing since nothing stays on the same route anyway (which is a good thing). Rather than X7 buses on the X10, X10 buses on the 308 and 308 buses on the X10 which happens daily.

But if the 308 was to be in line for new vehicles (presuming VDL Geminis can be upgraded to Euro 6 and moved on to other routes - pretty certain they can), then surely it would make sense to order new ZF E400MMCs for the X21 / X22 now that stop / start is an option with ZF as seen with GNE's X-Lines orders.

The only other thing I can see Arriva doing is ordering StreetDecks for the 308 and contrary to the normal Sapphire specification, maybe include tables and wireless charging to compete with GoNE.

Started a bit of a conversation here? Shame that no-one from down here on Teesside has interjected with what they'd like to see happen.

(07 Mar 2020, 9:11 pm)Jimmi wrote I still don't get why the X21/X22 is seen as such a favourable route for investment on here considering there's other routes in the North East that are equally or even more deserving of new stock than that is.

Could see some newer stuff for the X18 and maybe X15 (hopefully) and cascade the MAX E400s to 35, X14 & X20 and older examples elsewhere too, likely Belmont to see off Lowlanders and Volvo B7TLs - saying that though, IMO Belmont could do with some Sapphire spec double deckers as there's not really enough to meet PVRs for the Sapphire routes now, especially since there's now a booked decker working on one of Belmont's 7 boards on weekdays - in an ideal world, would be great if all 7 boards were double deckers during the daytime.

I think if we see investment for the X15/8 then it'd make sense to do the X14 as well - the Scanias are due for replacement soon anyway so it'd make sense to a degree. Would require 12 vehicles, 13 if there's a dedicated spare. 

You'd then have 7553-6 for the X20. 

Out of 7511/2/4-7 and 7529-33 you'd probably see the latter 5 stay at Ashington as spares for the Morpeth routes and for the 35 alongside 1579/80. The other 6 could then move to Jesmond to displace their B7s. 

Currently I don't imagine there's a lot of need to replace the Blyth deckers. They're on less demanding routes than the Ashington E400s, have all had recent refurbs and will likely be kept on for the next couple of years at least. 

If we're honest the X15 should have had new vehicles about 5 years ago. 

In response to your X21/22 point, I believe that the MMCs are already surpassing 200k miles at 2.5 years old. Not huge milage but the buses they replaced were already dying, I'd imagine that's why we saw quick succession of investment last time around.

One my last trip to Darlington they routes really need an upgrade since I think some of Darlingtons omnicities are still only euro 3 and that's meant to be the express routes that most of the time get even older buses

(07 Mar 2020, 9:58 pm)mb134 wrote I think if we see investment for the X15/8 then it'd make sense to do the X14 as well - the Scanias are due for replacement soon anyway so it'd make sense to a degree. Would require 12 vehicles, 13 if there's a dedicated spare. 

You'd then have 7553-6 for the X20. 

Out of 7511/2/4-7 and 7529-33 you'd probably see the latter 5 stay at Ashington as spares for the Morpeth routes and for the 35 alongside 1579/80. The other 6 could then move to Jesmond to displace their B7s. 

Currently I don't imagine there's a lot of need to replace the Blyth deckers. They're on less demanding routes than the Ashington E400s, have all had recent refurbs and will likely be kept on for the next couple of years at least. 

If we're honest the X15 should have had new vehicles about 5 years ago. 

In response to your X21/22 point, I believe that the MMCs are already surpassing 200k miles at 2.5 years old. Not huge milage but the buses they replaced were already dying, I'd imagine that's why we saw quick succession of investment last time around.

Think the plan was for Yorkshire E400s to replace the B7TL Gemini's on the 306 but that hasn't quite worked out due to the delay in delivery of StreetDecks to Yorkshire plus Lowlanders being withdrawn.

(07 Mar 2020, 10:04 pm)Ds1197 wrote One my last trip to Darlington they routes really need an upgrade since I think some of Darlingtons omnicities are still only euro 3 and that's meant to be the express routes that most of the time get even older buses

Darlington's fleet is actually fine for the most part apart from a few specific Omni's which are town only due to issues making them not ideal for out of town work and some of the Lites being totally useless. Thing I want to see is the Solos being given a slight bit of TLC as seats are as flat as a pancake at the back on most of them and some buses are crying out for a repaint.

(07 Mar 2020, 9:58 pm)mb134 wrote I think if we see investment for the X15/8 then it'd make sense to do the X14 as well - the Scanias are due for replacement soon anyway so it'd make sense to a degree. Would require 12 vehicles, 13 if there's a dedicated spare. 

You'd then have 7553-6 for the X20. 

Out of 7511/2/4-7 and 7529-33 you'd probably see the latter 5 stay at Ashington as spares for the Morpeth routes and for the 35 alongside 1579/80. The other 6 could then move to Jesmond to displace their B7s. 

Currently I don't imagine there's a lot of need to replace the Blyth deckers. They're on less demanding routes than the Ashington E400s, have all had recent refurbs and will likely be kept on for the next couple of years at least. 

If we're honest the X15 should have had new vehicles about 5 years ago. 

In response to your X21/22 point, I believe that the MMCs are already surpassing 200k miles at 2.5 years old. Not huge milage but the buses they replaced were already dying, I'd imagine that's why we saw quick succession of investment last time around.

There's nothing wrong with the E400MMCs on the X21 / X22. But if Arriva were to go with presumably E400MMCs, would it not make sense to put them on a route that would suit ZF gearboxes better with the current Voith examples being used on a more 'stop-start' type of route?

Unlike Stagecoach, Arriva spec'd their classic E400s with ZF gearboxes but changed to Voith with the MMCs as stop-start was only available with Voith until recently.

(07 Mar 2020, 9:40 pm)scanialover wrote Started a bit of a conversation here? Shame that no-one from down here on Teesside has interjected with what they'd like to see happen.

What I'd like to see happen and what will happen are two totally different things. We won't get anything new down here.

(07 Mar 2020, 10:39 pm)L469 YVK wrote There's nothing wrong with the E400MMCs on the X21 / X22. But if Arriva were to go with presumably E400MMCs, would it not make sense to put them on a route that would suit ZF gearboxes better with the current Voith examples being used on a more 'stop-start' type of route?

Unlike Stagecoach, Arriva spec'd their classic E400s with ZF gearboxes but changed to Voith with the MMCs as stop-start was only available with Voith until recently.

Indeed, nothing wrong with the MMCs at all for the X21/22. The 14 plates seem to be set up better for higher speeds though, had one of them the other week on the X14 out of Newcastle and it was effortless getting to 62mph on the A1 - I'd like to see any new vehicles for the Morpeth express routes given the ZF box. 

The X21/22 is quite stop-start, for nearly half the route all it does is stop and start! The MMCs deal well with the higher speed sections of it too, least I've never seen them struggle. 

I'd like to see the X93 get new vehicles over the next couple of years, though then you've got the issue of trying to find a home for 6 non-standard B9TLs that have been hammered on the X93 for the best part of 6 years. 

Honestly a route that could probably do with new vehicles, it'd only need E200MMCs, would be the X12. They need to do a better job of marketing the only route that connects their Northumbria and Durham County operations - it has so much potential but is horrifically executed.

(08 Mar 2020, 12:32 am)mb134 wrote Indeed, nothing wrong with the MMCs at all for the X21/22. The 14 plates seem to be set up better for higher speeds though, had one of them the other week on the X14 out of Newcastle and it was effortless getting to 62mph on the A1 - I'd like to see any new vehicles for the Morpeth express routes given the ZF box. 

The X21/22 is quite stop-start, for nearly half the route all it does is stop and start! The MMCs deal well with the higher speed sections of it too, least I've never seen them struggle. 

I'd like to see the X93 get new vehicles over the next couple of years, though then you've got the issue of trying to find a home for 6 non-standard B9TLs that have been hammered on the X93 for the best part of 6 years. 

Honestly a route that could probably do with new vehicles, it'd only need E200MMCs, would be the X12. They need to do a better job of marketing the only route that connects their Northumbria and Durham County operations - it has so much potential but is horrifically executed.

Would the B9TLs from the X93 not have any life left in them to do the X20 if the X93 was upgraded?

If the X93 was to be upgraded to Scania E400MMCs, it would make sense to also purchase new vehicles for the X15 & X18 too at the same time.

The X12 is certainly an interesting one.

Can go with the idea of upgrading the X12. In fact the concept of again upgrading Arriva's "X" route should be seen as positive. 'Max' was a step in the right direction but was only cosmetic and is now past its best. 'Sapphire' came along with the Streetlites and again the idea was a good one; problems here is that they don't get carried through, the novelty wears of and we find vehicles on Max and Sapphire allocated all over the place. For sure it's a tricky one just like the branding of just about anything

I can’t see any new buses arriving for the Northeast area, the government should take control of there bus services and kick Arriva out, while DB keeps putting prices up and nothing being put back into the UK and only using handouts from the government to pay for Anything in the UK, while profits from bus/train fares in the UK etc... are being used to improve there own services in there own country


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Surely any investment will be focused on the LEZ therefore displacements or swaps to move on:

Streetlites on 35, 52 and 54 (supposedly can't be upgraded).
Scanias on 685 and Berwick Expresses
Volvo B7TL at Blyth, Jesmond and Ashington
Commanders at Blyth
Solos on 46, 51, 55

The 685 has been forgotton about for awhile especially now that Stagecoach runs new deckers on it, could be one for an upgrade. Be very surprised if they mod the Scanias.

Are there any Streetlite allocated boards on the 7 on a Monday-saturday

(08 Mar 2020, 9:51 am)GNE6312 wrote Are there any Streetlite allocated boards on the 7 on a Monday-saturday

All depends on what’s available on a morning, as 7538 is once again town only something has to cover that on the 7

One of the 1 Running boards now gets allocated a sapphire decker again now as it goes to the College on a 5A something else needs to replace the decker there using

To be honest Darlington are having a little bit of a nightmare with availability on a morning recently so pretty much anything goes on anything

Why are Darlington having so many issues? Isn't that the role of management to sort things out

(08 Mar 2020, 8:46 am)cbma06 wrote I can’t see any new buses arriving for the Northeast area, the government should take control of there bus services and kick Arriva out, while DB keeps putting prices up and nothing being put back into the UK and only using handouts from the government to pay for  Anything in the UK, while profits from bus/train fares in the UK etc... are being used to improve there own services in there own country


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Think that's a bit harsh. Although nationalising Arriva would be a bit extreme (unless for a good reason), they do however need to clean up their act.

I'm by no means saying Stagecoach & GoNE are perfect. Arriva do some things well but they need to be more consistent and improve their image in a number of ways.

The position Arriva are in now however, Stagecoach and or GoNE (most likely the former, I don't think GNE would want to get involved) could easily setup a viable competing operation particularly in Northumberland.

- Super fast Blyth to Newcastle express routes running non stop to Newcastle via A189 & Salters Lane (competing with X10 & X11).

- Super fast Newbiggin to Newcastle express route via Woodhorn, Ashington and North Seaton then via A189 & Salters Lane to Newcastle (competing with X20 and part of X21).

- Fast Blyth to Newcastle express via Cowpen, Bebside, High Pit and Annitsford then via A189 to Newcastle. (competing with X8). This would miss out Cramlington.

Why look at the competition element when clearly it's never going to happen, or work for that matter. Let's focus on making what we have starting with Arriva getting their act together. We might have a 6-8% VOR situation, which is acceptable/understandable but from what I read on here it's the day to day situation that seems to be a problem.

As I've said before, I don't have that much experience with Arriva as I lived deep in GNE territory for most of my life, it's only in the last 5 or so years that I've had to deal with them.
As much as I love complaining about them (I think we all do!), they don't do /that/ much bad, sure they have their bad points, but they also have some good ones as well! 
Bare in mind that my experience is limited to services that operate around County Durham

Some of my complaints about Arriva:

I've yet to see an Arriva driver that looks like they're enjoying their job, they always look miserable!
Many times I've had drivers that barely speaks English or doesn't know places along the route (usually a mix of both)

MAX and Sapphire are nothing more than a name at this point. Sapphire was meant to be their 'premium' service but that didn't last.
They have have so many different standard liveries floating about you'd think they were different operators!


I have no issue with getting older vehicles from other divisions, but when you 'upgrade' a route with 11 year old buses, that's when I start having issues
Their vehicles are pretty much always dirty inside
They never seem to repair damage to seats. There are seats on fairly new buses that are all ripped, and if you're lucky they're even taped up!

I would bring up timekeeping, but I know that's not always down to them. Although if the timetables were planned properly they could take this into account, especially if they're a regular occurrence.

It's easy to be critical of Arriva (and I am), but to be fair to them they aren't as terrible as some people think.

But I agree with the previous poster, the different branding doesnt work very well, especially if they dont put their money where their mouth is.

There's no point in having a Sapphire 'premium' brand unless you're going to invest new, good quality buses at least every 4 or 5 years on those routes. If you're going to have years of buying little or no new buses, they will get left behind.

I'm not a fan of Streetlites anyway but at least when they were introduced on the 5's and X3/X4's they were new. Now, the branding is often missing or out of date, seats marked and worn, charging points old fashioned and mostly not working, next stop screens and audio often not working, and the buses themselves often replaced with a Temsa or pulsar.

Can agree, in part, with what is said about Arriva's drivers. There are a canny few diamonds out there who look the part and take pride in their job, but then there is a good percentage who undermine this with their attitude and lack of customer focus. OK it's not an easy position dealing with demanding timetables and often difficult passengers but that is the role in which they are trained. Add a point here, wasn't relevant until yesterday? Clipping the odd kerb is unavoidable but hitting just about every one, AKA my journey on the 1142 service 7 from Durham, was a bit much. Back to the driving school for him?

As for the fleet, what can one say? It's a mess! A complete mis-match of liveries and then styles within said liveries. What was the idea behind the latest standard livery which to bring the fleet into some sort of standardisation, cost a fortune

Then we have the issues raised against the Streetlites, MAX and Sapphire. All this came all singing and dancing but now look at it. Another mess, brand new vehicles which while not ideal should have been kept up to the spec and standard for which they were purchased .

And to finish. Just headed home on VDL Pulsar 1410 working a 29 trip out of Middlesbrough. I say this because here is a classic example of just where Arriva's fleet should be. Smart new livery externally, refurbished, or looked like it, internally and seemed to be mechanically sound. OK the NSA wasn't working but hey, do we need it?

Arriva will need to get their act together and invest way more in routes that generate the most revenue. I.e. Express services (X15/X18/X93)

(07 Mar 2020, 9:40 pm)scanialover wrote Started a bit of a conversation here? Shame that no-one from down here on Teesside has interjected with what they'd like to see happen.

Our buses aren't too bad, and I don't think there is a need for any new buses. Though I would like to see a refresh of buses both in and out. If anything maybe a few more shorter centros from somewhere for the 7 giving a few extra buses for TLC to the pulsars/streetlites on long distant routes.