Would running the shorts to Harlow Green be worth it, surely the PVR reduction would be minimum in comparison to running through to CLS. Not mention there will be dead running as it's away from CLS depot and the issue with staff changeovers.

For Harlow Green, couldn't you just direct the loop down there, then send either the loop, 25, 28 or 57 down Beacon Lough Road then turn right onto Southend Road with the 25 going via the QE again.

(22 Jul 2020, 6:30 pm)Storx wrote Would running the shorts to Harlow Green be worth it, surely the PVR reduction would be minimum in comparison to running through to CLS. Not mention there will be dead running as it's away from CLS depot and the issue with staff changeovers.

They'd probably have to be Angel branded too, as when it was the 1 people would let the 1 go past for an Angel. As they do for most routes, people will let a 57 go past for a 56 and 58 where there's a shared corridor, people let a 61 go past for a 60. Even when buses are a higher spec, they'll go for the more known route.

(22 Jul 2020, 6:30 pm)Storx wrote Would running the shorts to Harlow Green be worth it, surely the PVR reduction would be minimum in comparison to running through to CLS. Not mention there will be dead running as it's away from CLS depot and the issue with staff changeovers. 

For Harlow Green, couldn't you just direct the loop down there, then send either the loop, 25, 28 or 57 down Beacon Lough Road then turn right onto Southend Road with the 25 going via the QE again.

Riverside? I'm sure Sunderland Road operated a variation (see below) at one point. 

As for the suggestions. It's Low Fell that seems to be the focus. Sending it via Old Durham Road wouldn't solve that. 

(22 Jul 2020, 6:34 pm)deanmachine wrote They'd probably have to be Angel branded too, as when it was the 1 people would let the 1 go past for an Angel. As they do for most routes, people will let a 57 go past for a 56 and 58 where there's a shared corridor, people let a 61 go past for a 60. Even when buses are a higher spec, they'll go for the more known route.

When the native Presidents were taken from the 21, they kept the front pink and operated a Durham Road short. 
I'm sure it was operated from Sunderland Road.
I've had a quick look for a picture, but can't see it. 

The issue with the 1 and 21, is probably more than just the number or colour of the bus.
Apart from operating from different parts of the town, and having totally different frequencies, there was the issue at Gateshead were they worked from different parts of the interchange, despite following each other along Durham Road. In to Newcastle, you had the 1 doing a seemingly never-ending tour of the Interchange and the town centre. 
By the time it got to the approach for the Tyne Bridge, the 21 following it all the way from Low Fell was probably over the Tyne Bridge and working its way through towards Eldon Square.
The 25 won't have all of the same issues, but it has its work cut out succeeding.

Trying to work out the 56, 57 and 58 issue and all I can think of is the routes in and out of the town.
I know pricing can be skew whiff on those services, but isn't the 57 the cheaper of the 3?

I've no idea why those issues are apparent in Sunderland with the 60 and 61 though. Is it cos they're mackems? 

Saw one of those 67 Plate Streetdecks on the X45, absolutely flying down the A694, didn't sound like it was struggling either. Are those much better than the 16 plates?

(22 Jul 2020, 9:54 pm)Big O wrote Saw one of those 67 Plate Streetdecks on the X45, absolutely flying down the A694, didn't sound like it was struggling either. Are those much better than the 16 plates?

From my experience on the X21, yes, by a mile. At 16 plates seem to struggle on the slightest of banks, but the 67 plates handle them no bother.

(22 Jul 2020, 9:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote Riverside? I'm sure Sunderland Road operated a variation (see below) at one point. 

As for the suggestions. It's Low Fell that seems to be the focus. Sending it via Old Durham Road wouldn't solve that.

It's more to the point is there any point moving the buses from CLS to Harlow Green or wherever. No-one uses the 25 now as it is for Low Fell to Newcastle, they all use the 21 so I can't imagine it being the end of the world if it didn't exist. The only reason imo they changed things around was so they could decrease the Eastern side of the 1 from every 15 minutes to 20 minutes and the 25 was the only bus route they could merge it into without running a short from Newcastle to Wrekenton only.

One thing that a lot of people have missed here is there might not actually be that much demand from the Harlow Estate to Newcastle and Gateshead. The Western side of the estate are likely to walk to Durham road where it's every 7 minutes instead of every 30 minutes. The North Eastern side are going to walk to Easedale Gardens where the Q1/Q2 are every 15 minutes. It only really leaves the South East side and even then some will probably be tempted to walk the 10 minutes to Durham Road or 7 minutes to Easedale. Least if you sent the loop or something your creating new links to other places like Team Valley or Heworth and your creating a new link between Wrekenton and Team Valley where people from the X1 or 56 could change easily.

The fact there's a duplicate 925 currently for the 25 pretty much sums up where the 25 should be going.

(22 Jul 2020, 9:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote Trying to work out the 56, 57 and 58 issue and all I can think of is the routes in and out of the town.
I know pricing can be skew whiff on those services, but isn't the 57 the cheaper of the 3?

I've no idea why those issues are apparent in Sunderland with the 60 and 61 though. Is it cos they're mackems? 

Honestly, the only difference I can think of is the frequency of the routes, although the 57 is cheaper too. I think people are just trained to get on the more frequent routes, because they end up showing up first most times.

I lived in harlow green for a bit. If i wanted to go to gateshead I would get the 51/52 ORBIT. If i wanted town i would get the 21 by walking down the bank to the stop opposite the JET petrol station. Funnily enough i always got the 1a ( or whatever number it was then) back home as it dropped me at my door.

(22 Jul 2020, 3:56 pm)big mac wrote Was there ever a service that did just Newcastle-Harlow Green?  I can remember ones like the 25,26 etc which have been mentioned here that went to Harlow Green and beyond but not one that ever terminated there.

How about maybe having it do a loop so it goes down Chowdene Bank, up Hertford and back along Durham Road or vice versa?

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Going back further, during the bus war of the 1990s, you briefly had the 20 from Gateshead to Harlow Green Bridge run by old metrobuses painted in Tyne Rider livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/22342302@N05/2190470335

The general pattern was that the Tyne Rider bus would sit on the slip road watching for an approaching Classic bus on the 21 then pull out and run in front of it towards Gateshead.

They were great times to live on Low Fell bus-wise with the Tyne Rider 20, Classic 21 and Northern/Shaws Coaches 221 shadowing it.  OK eventually threw their hat into the ring with a 22 from Rickleton to Newcastle Central Station. 

This was all in addition to the 24, 25, 26 and 28 mentioned above, as well as direct routes to the Metrocentre and Washington (183), Sunderland and Crawcrook (638), Hartlepool (231), Durham/Darlington (722/723), Houghton (735) and Stanley (709/728).  Classic also ran a competing route for the latter (the 78/79).  Not to mention the Low Fell Coach from Allerdene to Newcastle and the OK from to Bishop.

Some of the vehicles running around were well ropey, those second hand Classic nationals and atlanteans were knackered before they arrived here, not to mention the second hand metrobuses from Merseyside which often ran around with about an inch of water sloping around on the floor, and the old reinstated national Mk 1s used by Northern under their Shaws Coaches brand weren't any better.  One of those ran for months with a massive hole in the floor.

The frequency of service and choice of destination was, of course, a benefit of some competition.  GNE has the market so sewn up along the route now that they can run what they like as, other than taking the car, there is no alternative., other than the infrequent X12.

(22 Jul 2020, 10:09 pm)Storx wrote It's more to the point is there any point moving the buses from CLS to Harlow Green or wherever. No-one uses the 25 now as it is for Low Fell to Newcastle, they all use the 21 so I can't imagine it being the end of the world if it didn't exist. The only reason imo they changed things around was so they could decrease the Eastern side of the 1 from every 15 minutes to 20 minutes and the 25 was the only bus route they could merge it into without running a short from Newcastle to Wrekenton only.

One thing that a lot of people have missed here is there might not actually be that much demand from the Harlow Estate to Newcastle and Gateshead. The Western side of the estate are likely to walk to Durham road where it's every 7 minutes instead of every 30 minutes. The North Eastern side are going to walk to Easedale Gardens where the Q1/Q2 are every 15 minutes. It only really leaves the South East side and even then some will probably be tempted to walk the 10 minutes to Durham Road or 7 minutes to Easedale. Least if you sent the loop or something your creating new links to other places like Team Valley or Heworth and your creating a new link between Wrekenton and Team Valley where people from the X1 or 56 could change easily.

The fact there's a duplicate 925 currently for the 25 pretty much sums up where the 25 should be going.

In terms of the demand from Harlow Green, I would say that there is enough of it to warrant a service there and probably enough to warrant the 30 minute frequency. Pre-covid the 1 seemed to get good loadings.

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(22 Jul 2020, 10:09 pm)Storx wrote It's more to the point is there any point moving the buses from CLS to Harlow Green or wherever. No-one uses the 25 now as it is for Low Fell to Newcastle, they all use the 21 so I can't imagine it being the end of the world if it didn't exist. The only reason imo they changed things around was so they could decrease the Eastern side of the 1 from every 15 minutes to 20 minutes and the 25 was the only bus route they could merge it into without running a short from Newcastle to Wrekenton only.

One thing that a lot of people have missed here is there might not actually be that much demand from the Harlow Estate to Newcastle and Gateshead . The Western side of the estate are likely to walk to Durham road where it's every 7 minutes instead of every 30 minutes. The North Eastern side are going to walk to Easedale Gardens where the Q1/Q2 are every 15 minutes. It only really leaves the South East side and even then some will probably be tempted to walk the 10 minutes to Durham Road or 7 minutes to Easedale. Least if you sent the loop or something your creating new links to other places like Team Valley or Heworth and your creating a new link between Wrekenton and Team Valley where people from the X1 or 56 could change easily.

The fact there's a duplicate 925 currently for the 25 pretty much sums up where the 25 should be going.

I agree, I don't think there is that much demand to/from Harlow Green.
It's a useful location to get the bus pointing in the right direction again, it allows for the main drag through Low Fell to be covered and the length of time it takes to get there from the town, means you can use a pretty low PVR and associated resource.
Send something through Birtley and all of a sudden you're looking to increase the resources cost, are at the whim of the many traffic lights and hoping that nowt happens on the A1 - for not much in the way of financial return, as the demand to/from the Gateshead or Newcastle isn't always there imo. 

I'd completely forgotten about the Tyne Rider Metrobuses mentioned above - a low cost entry in to the Durham Road bus war, which used Harlow Green as a terminus for probably the reasons I mentioned previously.

As I said previously though, I don't think Harlow Green is the place to spin the bus round. Ditto Wrekenton. They might be convenient for operators, but they're both intermediate stops imo, which won't attract the through passengers, which help supplement the short trips.

(23 Jul 2020, 9:41 am)Andreos1 wrote I agree, I don't think there is that much demand to/from Harlow Green.
It's a useful location to get the bus pointing in the right direction again, it allows for the main drag through Low Fell to be covered and the length of time it takes to get there from the town, means you can use a pretty low PVR and associated resource.
Send something through Birtley and all of a sudden you're looking to increase the resources cost, are at the whim of the many traffic lights and hoping that nowt happens on the A1 - for not much in the way of financial return, as the demand to/from the Gateshead or Newcastle isn't always there imo. 

I'd completely forgotten about the Tyne Rider Metrobuses mentioned above - a low cost entry in to the Durham Road bus war, which used Harlow Green as a terminus for probably the reasons I mentioned previously.

As I said previously though, I don't think Harlow Green is the place to spin the bus round. Ditto Wrekenton. They might be convenient for operators, but they're both intermediate stops imo, which won't attract the through passengers, which help supplement the short trips.

I was talking about the 25 there btw. Could possibly do send one 21 every 30 minutes around the Harlow Green Loop then send the other 21 every 30 minutes to the Gold Medal R'bout or even Team Valley then continue with every 15 to CLS, 30 to Durham. Merges 2 routes into one, not sure what PVR decrease you'd get mind.

When this park and ride eventually opens at the Angel (which is looking around 3-4 years away) you'll have the perfect location to turn shorts!

Steering the conversation back to new vehicles & Xlines, I was just thinking buses at or near Eldon Sq Bus Station are going to start looking a lot smarter and more uniformed in a month or two, with Xline gold across X1, X9, X10, X21, X30, X31, X45, X46, X47, X70, X71, X72(?), X84 & X85.
Really looking forward to it.
The lack of Blaydon Racer & Toonlink brands will help with overall appearances too.

(24 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)ne14ne1 wrote Steering the conversation back to new vehicles & Xlines, I was just thinking buses at or near Eldon Sq Bus Station are going to start looking a lot smarter and more uniformed in a month or two, with Xline gold across X1, X9, X10, X21, X30, X31, X45, X46, X47, X70, X71, X72(?), X84 & X85.
Really looking forward to it.
The lack of Blaydon Racer & Toonlink brands will help with overall appearances too.

Certainly will. Seems the E400 have already started to arrive for EY. Not long till we get ours

(24 Jul 2020, 11:25 am)ne14ne1 wrote Steering the conversation back to new vehicles & Xlines, I was just thinking buses at or near Eldon Sq Bus Station are going to start looking a lot smarter and more uniformed in a month or two, with Xline gold across X1, X9, X10, X21, X30, X31, X45, X46, X47, X70, X71, X72(?), X84 & X85.
Really looking forward to it.
The lack of Blaydon Racer & Toonlink brands will help with overall appearances too.

X72 will (or I think it should be) gold Xlines as it runs in off an X71.

6332 should be at Consett today.

Dan has explained the reasons behind the colours for the X-Lines and how it links in to the sub-brands around the areas the X-Lines serve.

(25 Jul 2020, 4:01 pm)Michael wrote Dan has explained the reasons behind the colours for the X-Lines and how it links in to the sub-brands around the areas the X-Lines serve.

Isn't that what certain members of the forum have said for years though? (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...hp?tid=315) 
Identity doesn't exist amongst a hotchpotch of colour schemes and brands.

(25 Jul 2020, 7:29 pm)Andreos1 wrote Isn't that what certain members of the forum have said for years though? (https://northeastbuses.co.uk/forum/showt...hp?tid=315) 
Identity doesn't exist amongst a hotchpotch of colour schemes and brands.

It certainly seems like a few of the members there, including yourself, were hitting the nail on the head and it does now seem to be the company direction now. While I must admit I’m generally a fan of route branding, I also see the other side of the coin that the multitude of brands there used to be, sometimes for low PVR routes, was always questionable. Not to mention brands that didn’t mean much at all. Having said that, I think things like the Fab 56, however garish, have become known as such - meaning the branding has worked. I’ve seen the word on the street is that the Fab 56 will be changing its name, I just hope the new brand, which I assume will be less orange and flowers, will have the same impact.

(25 Jul 2020, 8:13 pm)Drifter60 wrote It certainly seems like a few of the members there, including yourself, were hitting the nail on the head and it does now seem to be the company direction now. While I must admit I’m generally a fan of route branding, I also see the other side of the coin that the multitude of brands there used to be, sometimes for low PVR routes, was always questionable. Not to mention brands that didn’t mean much at all. Having said that, I think things like the Fab 56, however garish, have become known as such - meaning the branding has worked. I’ve seen the word on the street is that the Fab 56 will be changing its name, I just hope the new brand, which I assume will be less orange and flowers, will have the same impact.

I think you make some good points there and I agree with most of what you have said.
However, if you look at the 56. It's a route brand. It does and says nothing about being part of a local network or having any role to play in the wider GNE network. It's a one off, no matter how strong it is. 
These other new liveries may not be as striking as the one carried by the 56, but they certainly demonstrate to me, that they are part of a wider network of GNE routes. 
Mind, they also indicate that they're part of an express network. Express indicates to me fast and limited stop. Are all of these services fast and limited stop? Not sure on that one and if others have similar doubts, then for all the work done on the liveries, theirs no guarantee it will increase bums on seats.

(26 Jul 2020, 11:06 am)Andreos1 wrote I think you make some good points there and I agree with most of what you have said.
However, if you look at the 56. It's a route brand. It does and says nothing about being part of a local network or having any role to play in the wider GNE network. It's a one off, no matter how strong it is. 
These other new liveries may not be as striking as the one carried by the 56, but they certainly demonstrate to me, that they are part of a wider network of GNE routes. 
Mind, they also indicate that they're part of an express network. Express indicates to me fast and limited stop. Are all of these services fast and limited stop? Not sure on that one and if others have similar doubts, then for all the work done on the liveries, theirs no guarantee it will increase bums on seats.

They're not necessarily fast and limited stop but rather fast interurban links, which is where the growth has been in recent years across the industry. 
Fab56 meanwhile is more providing local links between three towns/cities giving journey opportunities across the whole route. People get hung up on the start/finish point while forgetting that a good proportion of people using it don't travel to these places. The same applies to many other routes of course.

(26 Jul 2020, 11:06 am)Andreos1 wrote I think you make some good points there and I agree with most of what you have said.
However, if you look at the 56. It's a route brand. It does and says nothing about being part of a local network or having any role to play in the wider GNE network. It's a one off, no matter how strong it is. 
These other new liveries may not be as striking as the one carried by the 56, but they certainly demonstrate to me, that they are part of a wider network of GNE routes. 
Mind, they also indicate that they're part of an express network. Express indicates to me fast and limited stop. Are all of these services fast and limited stop? Not sure on that one and if others have similar doubts, then for all the work done on the liveries, theirs no guarantee it will increase bums on seats.

I don't get why they kept the Green Arrow brand. It sort of made sense when they had the Blue and Red Arrow, but now they're both dead it feels a bit pointless. It's not as if it even had that much of a history, it felt tacked on as it was.

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(26 Jul 2020, 12:25 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I don't get why they kept the Green Arrow brand. It sort of made sense when they had the Blue and Red Arrow, but now they're both dead it feels a bit pointless.

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Should've stuck with "The Highwayman" in personal opinion.

The Blue, Green, Red and Silver Arrows would've made more sense if they were using the model they are now for X-Lines for the locally operated services across various areas. Plymouth Citybus have similar branding with Blue, Green, Orange and Yellow Flash branded services within their network.

I much prefer the named variant of brands with ties locally e.g. The Crusader, Coaster, Toon Link, Black Cats & Angel to name a few we have with Go North East even if some are pointless like Indigo, Green Arrow, The 9/49 than having coloured named brands like what Plymouth Citybus have.

(26 Jul 2020, 12:40 pm)Malarkey wrote Should've stuck with "The Highwayman" in personal opinion.

The Blue, Green, Red and Silver Arrows would've made more sense if they were using the model they are now for X-Lines for the locally operated services across various areas. Plymouth Citybus have similar branding with Blue, Green, Orange and Yellow Flash branded services within their network.

I much prefer the named variant of brands with ties locally e.g. The Crusader, Coaster, Toon Link, Black Cats & Angel to name a few we have with Go North East even if some are pointless like Indigo, Green Arrow, The 9/49 than having coloured named brands like what Plymouth Citybus have.

Luckily "The 9/49", looks to of been dropped. , along with the Toonlink, unless that ends up on another route.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new 56 brand... but i doubt we will see that this year now, the B9's are in desperate need of a repaint.

(26 Jul 2020, 12:45 pm)Michael wrote Luckily "The 9/49", looks to of been dropped.      , along with the Toonlink, unless that ends up on another route.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new 56 brand... but i doubt we will see that this year now, the B9's are in desperate need of a repaint.

Quite a few in need of a repaint if you want to include Connections4, Drifter & Citylink 58 to the The/9/49 and Fab 56, hopefully they'll get through all these repaints they are doing currently quickly ahead of the new buses arriving in the coming weeks/months ahead so they can switch focus on to the latter.

(26 Jul 2020, 12:40 pm)Malarkey wrote Should've stuck with "The Highwayman" in personal opinion.

The Blue, Green, Red and Silver Arrows would've made more sense if they were using the model they are now for X-Lines for the locally operated services across various areas. Plymouth Citybus have similar branding with Blue, Green, Orange and Yellow Flash branded services within their network.

I much prefer the named variant of brands with ties locally e.g. The Crusader, Coaster, Toon Link, Black Cats & Angel to name a few we have with Go North East even if some are pointless like Indigo, Green Arrow, The 9/49 than having coloured named brands like what Plymouth Citybus have.

That could be the long term plan, we might see a return of the 'Arrow' brands on different routes.

I wonder what colour the 56 would be if it was an Arrow, hopefully not orange!

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(26 Jul 2020, 12:53 pm)streetdeckfan wrote That could be the long term plan, we might see a return of the 'Arrow' brands on different routes.

I wonder what colour the 56 would be if it was an Arrow, hopefully not orange!

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I don't think we will see those return anytime soon.

(26 Jul 2020, 12:58 pm)Malarkey wrote I don't think we will see those return anytime soon.

That's the only reason I can see for keeping it through, if they're going around killing the other standalone brands that have no meaning, then why keep Green Arrow?

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How do you define 'meaning' in the context of branding? Is it that they need to include a local reference or something else?

Green Arrow is the perfect brand to peddle the messsge about buses being more environmentally friendly. A leaf even appears in the logo.

It might not have been the meaning of the brand back in 2015, but in 2020 having received new buses, quite possibly.

(26 Jul 2020, 1:42 pm)S813 FVK wrote How do you define 'meaning' in the context of branding? Is it that they need to include a local reference or something else?

Green Arrow is the perfect brand to peddle the messsge about buses being more environmentally friendly. A leaf even appears in the logo.

It might not have been the meaning of the brand back in 2015, but in 2020 having received new buses, quite possibly.

Yeah, Crusader, Angel, Red Kite etc. all relate to the route, and as was said in the other thread, an argument could be made for Red Arrow. If it was a group of brands it would make sense, but standalone not really.

Maybe the reason they kept it was because the vehicles are ''green', but what new buses aren't? (in fact, I'd argue that they're not, compared to EV anyway)
It'd be like basing a brand around the fact a bus has seats.