(12 Sep 2020, 2:37 pm)L469 YVK wrote The StreetDeck is perfect for what it was built for. Basically to offer a fuel efficient lightweight double deck solution without the cost of mild hybrid / full electric technology. That covers routes such as the 21/56/309/310/311 and not forgetting Arriva's 308. The E400MMC on the other hand is now a "sweet spot". Not too heavy but capable enough for most work albeit on the "heavy side" for any type of work mentioned above.  

It was only given the recent events that GoNE had to streamline things thus swapping the intended allocations for both sets of new vehicles.

I fully agree. But I do still believe the only reason they ordered the E400s for the X1 initially was due to the uncertainty at Wrightbus.

Had the Wrightbus vehicles arrived on time, and there been time to evaluate the 6 cylinder, I do think they would have went that way over the E400.

I also think that consolidating most of the E400s at Consett will be a better idea in the long run

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(11 Sep 2020, 9:06 pm)Adrian wrote Have to say, the X1 Xlines brand looks extremely smart. Probably the best so far.

What is also clever is how these express routes have X Lines branding with mainly gold but different colours just at the back for different corridors.

These new StreetDecks and Enviro 400s inevitably mean a more modern but more standardised double-deck fleet than in recent years.

(12 Sep 2020, 2:50 pm)Metroline1511 wrote What is also clever is how these express routes have X Lines branding with mainly gold but different colours just at the back for different corridors.

These new StreetDecks and Enviro 400s inevitably mean a more modern but more standardised double-deck fleet than in recent years.

That approach also means that vehicles can be easily moved around with minimal repaint since only the back needs changed, like with the X21 StreetDecks moving to Consett

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Go North East X-lines 6333 / X21 GNE by kieron mathews, on Flickr

6333 has transferred to Consett

Go North East X-lines 6348 / YX70 OKL by kieron mathews, on Flickr

6348 has entered service

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(12 Sep 2020, 10:01 am)Dan wrote Just to stop you needing to ask the question every other day, the StreetDecks on the X1 will remain on the X1. There's no reason to suggest that they will be incapable of running the route, and whilst they have a slower top speed on the Washington Highway (difference of 7mph against current Volvo B9), they are actually quicker off the mark than the existing Volvo B9, and will also likely do the uphill climb on the Washington Highway a bit better than the existing Volvo B9. There should be no need to replace them with more heavy-weight buses, nor any need to take Volvo B9s off the routes they're on at the moment. Initial feedback from driving team colleagues seems to be good.

It's very unlikely that bus operators up and down the country will be in a position to afford very many new buses at all. It will be a very long road to recovery once the government support package is revoked, and Go North East is certainly doing all it can now (given it has the opportunity to do so with all of the new buses coming in) to promote and market its services to get people back on board buses.

It will be interesting to see how the shortfall in top speed makes up for quicker acceleration and more power on the hills. Especially as the frequency has dropped. 

This could have been a chance to improve the X1 beyond a new livery and on-board spec.
Faster journeys would have been a good start.
A new livery and on board spec is only part of making things 'better than ever', but pretty pointless if it is taking people longer to get to/from work.

(12 Sep 2020, 2:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I fully agree. But I do still believe the only reason they ordered the E400s for the X1 initially was due to the uncertainty at Wrightbus.

Had the Wrightbus vehicles arrived on time, and there been time to evaluate the 6 cylinder, I do think they would have went that way over the E400.

I also think that consolidating most of the E400s at Consett will be a better idea in the long run

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That's the whole point I was getting across earlier in response to Dan's post. As things stand now, none of us have a crystal ball and it's highly likely on the basis of now that the StreetDecks will see their 7-8 year stint out on the X1. But IF (and that's a big one) the economic outlook improves within the next 2-3 years (2022/23) to put GNE in a position to order new vehicles again, it wouldn't be a surprise if GNE decided to replace these for a "mid-weight" vehicle type with the StreetDecks being cascaded on a route where newer vehicles could be justified (not necessarily just the 56 or Cobalts).

If the StreetDecks get to year 3 and are reliable enough on the X1, it would make sense to keep them on the X1. But if the X1 proved to be too intense for these, then the option "could" be there but again referring to my previous mention about crystal balls.

GNE did that this year with the X9 & X10 replacing 3 year old Volvo B5TLs with coaches. Arriva also did the same back in 2003 on the 10's predecessor route replacing unreliable 3 year old Dennis Trident ALX400s with Volvo B10BLEs (also in response to declining passengers on the Ryton corridor).

(12 Sep 2020, 5:37 pm)Andreos1 wrote It will be interesting to see how the shortfall in top speed makes up for quicker acceleration and more power on the hills. Especially as the frequency has dropped. 

This could have been a chance to improve the X1 beyond a new livery and on-board spec.
Faster journeys would have been a good start.
A new livery and on board spec is only part of making things 'better than ever', but pretty pointless if it is taking people longer to get to/from work.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not too familiar with the route, but doesn't the X1 spend about 4 miles on Washington Highway?

So if we do some back-of-the-envelope maths...

Assuming a straight 4 miles with no difference in acceleration/deceleration the StreetDecks will be able to do the stretch in 4 minutes 48 seconds, whilst the B9s will be able to it in 4 minutes 13 seconds. That's only a 35 second difference. I'd expect they spent more time than that sitting at traffic lights, and certainly not enough to make a difference to the timetable.

I don't know what the difference in acceleration speeds are as I can't find any figures online, but it'd only make the difference in time shorter, as would the difference on hills

(12 Sep 2020, 5:49 pm)L469 YVK wrote That's the whole point I was getting across earlier in response to Dan's post. As things stand now, none of us have a crystal ball and it's highly likely on the basis of now that the StreetDecks will see their 7-8 year stint out on the X1. But IF (and that's a big one) the economic outlook improves within the next 2-3 years (2022/23) to put GNE in a position to order new vehicles again, it wouldn't be a surprise if GNE decided to replace these for a "mid-weight" vehicle type with the StreetDecks being cascaded on a route where newer vehicles could be justified (not necessarily just the 56 or Cobalts).

If the StreetDecks get to year 3 and are reliable enough on the X1, it would make sense to keep them on the X1. But if the X1 proved to be too intense for these, then the option "could" be there but again referring to my previous mention about crystal balls.

GNE did that this year with the X9 & X10 replacing 3 year old Volvo B5TLs with coaches. Arriva also did the same back in 2003 on the 10's predecessor route replacing unreliable 3 year old Dennis Trident ALX400s with Volvo B10BLEs (also in response to declining passengers on the Ryton corridor).

You keep forgetting that there's no-where for the Streetdecks to go, you can just go replacing the B9TL's which have at least 7 year left in them for the sake of it. There's literally about 100 single deckers and minibuses which more urgently need replacing especially the Mercedes and Omnicities (which can only be replaced by new vehicles on the 5/50) and are already nearly life expired. That's before we even start discussing the Euro Mods which they've had from their respective councils which will have terms behind them.

Also there's Streetdecks/B5TL's (they're similar) running on numerous Transdev routes such as the 36 and the Coaster routes which are a hell of a lot more harder work than the X1.

Just to add the coaches aren't new (2015 plates from Oxford) nor were the B10BLE's (ex. Arriva Scotland West). It wouldn't be a surprise to me if we don't see a new decker with GNE until at least 2025 imo bar ex London or elsewhere stock to see off the Omnidekkas in a similar way there wasn't any between 2005 and 2010 (deckers have a 15 year shelf life).

I don't even think the X1 even takes much of a toll on buses, it's not that extreme, there's only a small dual carriageway section, how is it any worse than the 56?

(12 Sep 2020, 6:58 pm)Storx wrote You keep forgetting that there's no-where for the Streetdecks to go, you can just go replacing the B9TL's which have at least 7 year left in them for the sake of it. There's literally about 100 single deckers and minibuses which more urgently need replacing especially the Mercedes and Omnicities (which can only be replaced by new vehicles on the 5/50) and are already nearly life expired. That's before we even start discussing the Euro Mods which they've had from their respective councils which will have terms behind them.

Also there's Streetdecks/B5TL's (they're similar) running on numerous Transdev routes such as the 36 and the Coaster routes which are a hell of a lot more harder work than the X1.

Just to add the coaches aren't new (2015 plates from Oxford) nor were the B10BLE's (ex. Arriva Scotland West). It wouldn't be a surprise to me if we don't see a new decker with GNE until at least 2025 imo bar ex London or elsewhere stock to see off the Omnidekkas in a similar way there wasn't any between 2005 and 2010 (deckers have a 15 year shelf life).

Assuming the economy and passenger numbers improve, I personally think they'll start looking at upgrading the whole X-Lines fleet again in around 5 years time.

By that point the B9s will be nearing the end of their life, and in order to keep the X-Lines network as 'premium', I suspect they may want to upgrade those and cascade the still relatively new StreetDecks and E400s to the likes of Cobalts, TVT and 56.

As for routes with single deckers, I think we'll continue to see a move away from them, like we've seen with the Crusader, X84/X85, and potentially still the 93/94.

With the Minibuses, it'd be a like-for-like replacement really, unless they move to the short E200s or StreetLites from the Solos, which we could possibly see for standardisation.

(12 Sep 2020, 7:24 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Assuming the economy and passenger numbers improve, I personally think they'll start looking at upgrading the whole X-Lines fleet again in around 5 years time.

By that point the B9s will be nearing the end of their life, and in order to keep the X-Lines network as 'premium', I suspect they may want to upgrade those and cascade the still relatively new StreetDecks and E400s to the likes of Cobalts, TVT and 56.

As for routes with single deckers, I think we'll continue to see a move away from them, like we've seen with the Crusader, X84/X85, and potentially still the 93/94.

With the Minibuses, it'd be a like-for-like replacement really, unless they move to the short E400s or StreetLites from the Solos, which we could possibly see for standardisation.

I don't personally, I think the 5, 50, Q1, Q2, Q3, 57 and 58 will be the next routes to see investment and I can't see any of them running with deckers - the last 5 with some form of electric bus if the Yutongs proove to be successful with a refurb on the 10 and 56 deckers and that'll be the lot maybe with some Solo's replaced - not sure where.

Also just to be picky short E200

(12 Sep 2020, 7:33 pm)Storx wrote I don't personally, I think the 5, 50, Q1, Q2, Q3, 57 and 58 will be the next routes to see investment and I can't see any of them running with deckers - the last 5 with some form of electric bus if the Yutongs proove to be successful with a refurb on the 10 and 56 deckers and that'll be the lot maybe with some Solo's replaced - not sure where.

Also just to be picky short E200

I mean, that wasn't a comprehensive list of thing I think we'll see. 

I think the next order we'll see will be a batch of E200s to replace some of the older single deckers, but I don't think it'll be any time soon.
Perhaps some new E200s to upgrade the X20 to full size permanently, with the X-Lines Solos moved to replace the older Solos.

As for electrics, I wonder if we might see the Quaylinks get upgraded first. It'd be better from a marketing perspective having the EVs driving around the quayside rather than out where nobody will see them.

(12 Sep 2020, 7:24 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Assuming the economy and passenger numbers improve, I personally think they'll start looking at upgrading the whole X-Lines fleet again in around 5 years time.

By that point the B9s will be nearing the end of their life, and in order to keep the X-Lines network as 'premium', I suspect they may want to upgrade those and cascade the still relatively new StreetDecks and E400s to the likes of Cobalts, TVT and 56.

As for routes with single deckers, I think we'll continue to see a move away from them, like we've seen with the Crusader, X84/X85, and potentially still the 93/94.

With the Minibuses, it'd be a like-for-like replacement really, unless they move to the short E200s or StreetLites from the Solos, which we could possibly see for standardisation.

That actually makes sense to some extent thinking about it. Although GoNE & Go-Ahead group have started over recent years to move vehicles around divisions.

(12 Sep 2020, 8:29 pm)L469 YVK wrote That actually makes sense to some extent thinking about it. Although GoNE & Go-Ahead group have started over recent years to move vehicles around divisions.

I wouldn't be surprised to see vehicles move freely between GNE and EY since new vehicles are the same spec inside and EY is a division within GNE, rather than being completely separate like other Go-Ahead divisions.

(12 Sep 2020, 10:01 am)Dan wrote Just to stop you needing to ask the question every other day, the StreetDecks on the X1 will remain on the X1. There's no reason to suggest that they will be incapable of running the route, and whilst they have a slower top speed on the Washington Highway (difference of 7mph against current Volvo B9), they are actually quicker off the mark than the existing Volvo B9, and will also likely do the uphill climb on the Washington Highway a bit better than the existing Volvo B9. There should be no need to replace them with more heavy-weight buses, nor any need to take Volvo B9s off the routes they're on at the moment. Initial feedback from driving team colleagues seems to be good.

It's very unlikely that bus operators up and down the country will be in a position to afford very many new buses at all. It will be a very long road to recovery once the government support package is revoked, and Go North East is certainly doing all it can now (given it has the opportunity to do so with all of the new buses coming in) to promote and market its services to get people back on board buses.

One question - will they be on the 50 on a Sunday?

(12 Sep 2020, 7:24 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Assuming the economy and passenger numbers improve, I personally think they'll start looking at upgrading the whole X-Lines fleet again in around 5 years time.

By that point the B9s will be nearing the end of their life, and in order to keep the X-Lines network as 'premium', I suspect they may want to upgrade those and cascade the still relatively new StreetDecks and E400s to the likes of Cobalts, TVT and 56.

As for routes with single deckers, I think we'll continue to see a move away from them, like we've seen with the Crusader, X84/X85, and potentially still the 93/94.

With the Minibuses, it'd be a like-for-like replacement really, unless they move to the short E200s or StreetLites from the Solos, which we could possibly see for standardisation.

Are you that confident that X lines will be around in 5 years time and that it will still be premium?

(12 Sep 2020, 10:17 pm)BusLoverMum wrote One question - will they be on the 50 on a Sunday?

Should be!


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(12 Sep 2020, 6:58 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not too familiar with the route, but doesn't the X1 spend about 4 miles on Washington Highway?

So if we do some back-of-the-envelope maths...

Assuming a straight 4 miles with no difference in acceleration/deceleration the StreetDecks will be able to do the stretch in 4 minutes 48 seconds, whilst the B9s will be able to it in 4 minutes 13 seconds. That's only a 35 second difference. I'd expect they spent more time than that sitting at traffic lights, and certainly not enough to make a difference to the timetable.

I don't know what the difference in acceleration speeds are as I can't find any figures online, but it'd only make the difference in time shorter, as would the difference on hills

Congratulations, you've just passed your Level 2 Maths Functional Skills. Certificate is in the post. 

Seriously though, most organisations are looking to save time through Continuous Improvement techniques, not add time.
Imagine if Nissan added 35 seconds to the manufacturing process? One lot of 35 seconds may not be too long, but add the numbers up and all of a sudden one lot of 35 seconds has increased. 
Convert that to bus journeys and (excluding any other natural delays), a round trip is over a minute down on where it would have been under the B9's. If the bus is out for 8 hours... Well you get the gist. You've just passed your level 2 maths.

Another example could be the 21 hitting Birtley 35 seconds down due to a passenger dithering on. It hits the first set of lights late, gets held up at the second, has an extra person rock up outside Lloyd's Bank to add to the existing queue and gets to the third set of lights 2mins down.

The main point I was trying to get across in my initial post, was that the overall journey time on the X1 is longer than it was in the past.
In addition to it now being all stops between Easington Lane and Shiney Row now, drivers appear to have lost the flexibility of leaving the Galleries alternative routes. 
It gets stuck in the bus link at Wrekenton (as opposed to bypassing it and stopping at Stormont Main Club) and has the extra couple of minutes around Gateshead and the Interchange. Granted the removal of bi-directional traffic from the High Level and removal of traffic from parts of Gateshead can't be helped and has added to the journey time, but the rest of the decisions are internal ones. Internal decisions which have made the trip slower/longer.
Fancy liveries and on-board interiors are only a part of increasing bums on seats. Journey times are a factor too, but seem to have been ignored. Again.

(13 Sep 2020, 10:15 am)Andreos1 wrote Congratulations, you've just passed your Level 2 Maths Functional Skills. Certificate is in the post. 

Seriously though, most organisations are looking to save time through Continuous Improvement techniques, not add time.
Imagine if Nissan added 35 seconds to the manufacturing process? One lot of 35 seconds may not be too long, but add the numbers up and all of a sudden one lot of 35 seconds has increased. 
Convert that to bus journeys and (excluding any other natural delays), a round trip is over a minute down on where it would have been under the B9's. If the bus is out for 8 hours... Well you get the gist. You've just passed your level 2 maths.

Another example could be the 21 hitting Birtley 35 seconds down due to a passenger dithering on. It hits the first set of lights late, gets held up at the second, has an extra person rock up outside Lloyd's Bank to add to the existing queue and gets to the third set of lights 2mins down.

The main point I was trying to get across in my initial post, was that the overall journey time on the X1 is longer than it was in the past.
In addition to it now being all stops between Easington Lane and Shiney Row now, drivers appear to have lost the flexibility of leaving the Galleries alternative routes. 
It gets stuck in the bus link at Wrekenton (as opposed to bypassing it and stopping at Stormont Main Club) and has the extra couple of minutes around Gateshead and the Interchange. Granted the removal of bi-directional traffic from the High Level and removal of traffic from parts of Gateshead can't be helped and has added to the journey time, but the rest of the decisions are internal ones. Internal decisions which have made the trip slower/longer.
Fancy liveries and on-board interiors are only a part of increasing bums on seats. Journey times are a factor too, but seem to have been ignored. Again.

It seems they've reduced the layover time at either end too. I'm not sure about actual running time enroute. However, with the current issues with traffic management at either end at the Burn and the general farce that is Gateshead Interchange to Newcastle and back; it's looking already like the X1s are departing late from both termini which was just about unheard of previously.

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(13 Sep 2020, 11:46 am)6049 wrote It seems they've reduced the layover time at either end too. I'm not sure about actual running time enroute. However, with the current issues with traffic management at either end at the Burn and the general farce that is Gateshead Interchange to Newcastle and back; it's looking already like the X1s are departing late from both termini which was just about unheard of previously.

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A few routes seem to have been speeded up/have reduced layover time, the 21 is another example (which, with the X1, is one of the few routes still to have a reduced evening frequency.

Once all the new double-deckers have entered service, and the departing route X1 Volvo B9TLs have been refurbished, I doubt there will be may double-deckers older than the 62-reg ex-London Volvo B9TLs left in service. Only a few ex-Brighton Scania OmniDekkas as far as I can tell.

(13 Sep 2020, 1:14 pm)Metroline1511 wrote Once all the new double-deckers have entered service, and the departing route X1 Volvo B9TLs have been refurbished, I doubt there will be may double-deckers older than the 62-reg ex-London Volvo B9TLs left in service.  Only a few ex-Brighton Scania OmniDekkas as far as I can tell.

Is there plans to withdraw any deckers? I believe the B9TL's are replacing Citaros and Omnicities rather than older deckers? I could be wrong though.

Go North East X-lines 6343 / YX70 OKJ by kieron mathews, on Flickr

6343 entered service yesterday (photo taken today)


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(13 Sep 2020, 1:14 pm)Metroline1511 wrote Once all the new double-deckers have entered service, and the departing route X1 Volvo B9TLs have been refurbished, I doubt there will be may double-deckers older than the 62-reg ex-London Volvo B9TLs left in service.  Only a few ex-Brighton Scania OmniDekkas as far as I can tell.

Doubt the Native B7TLs will be going anywhere yet. GNE still have scholars contracts too, although not as many as before, think anything older than the 06 plate London Geminis might start to go though.

(13 Sep 2020, 3:43 pm)Storx wrote Is there plans to withdraw any deckers? I believe the B9TL's are replacing Citaros and Omnicities rather than older deckers? I could be wrong though.

I'm not sure of the exact plans, but it does seem sensible to retain double-decks and replace the oldest single-decks such as the ones you mention.

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(13 Sep 2020, 4:32 pm)deanmachine wrote Doubt the Native B7TLs will be going anywhere yet. GNE still have scholars contracts too, although not as many as before, think anything older than the 06 plate London Geminis might start to go though.

I'll be pleased if the older double-deckers stay.  On my visits to the area I have sometimes prioritised riding the newest and oldest buses with Go North East.

(13 Sep 2020, 6:36 pm)Metroline1511 wrote I'm not sure of the exact plans, but it does seem sensible to retain double-decks and replace the oldest single-decks such as the ones you mention

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Yeah believe it was mentioned that the 62 plates were going onto The Loop, 13 and 25. Not sure if that's still happening though as it was pre Covid.

(13 Sep 2020, 11:46 am)6049 wrote It seems they've reduced the layover time at either end too. I'm not sure about actual running time enroute. However, with the current issues with traffic management at either end at the Burn and the general farce that is Gateshead Interchange to Newcastle and back; it's looking already like the X1s are departing late from both termini which was just about unheard of previously.

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I've tried digging out an old X5 timetable to compare it to a current X1. Unfortunately, the bygone section seems to be down. 
If any other members have an old one to share, it would be appreciated. 

I believe the old X5 took 35/40 mins Houghton - Newcastle up to the changes which saw it being a stopper between Easington Lane and Shiney Row. I think the current X1 is 45 between the same points. 
Even now, that 45 can be a push, but the time it gets at the Galleries for changeovers seems to be add some time to the trip. 
Stick a shorter lay-over in at either end and I can only see one result. Which is a shame, considering there's been all of this investment.

(13 Sep 2020, 8:50 pm)Andreos1 wrote I've tried digging out an old X5 timetable to compare it to a current X1. Unfortunately, the bygone section seems to be down. 
If any other members have an old one to share, it would be appreciated. 

I believe the old X5 took 35/40 mins Houghton - Newcastle up to the changes which saw it being a stopper between Easington Lane and Shiney Row. I think the current X1 is 45 between the same points. 
Even now, that 45 can be a push, but the time it gets at the Galleries for changeovers seems to be add some time to the trip. 
Stick a shorter lay-over in at either end and I can only see one result. Which is a shame, considering there's been all of this investment.

1983 timetable:



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(13 Sep 2020, 12:27 pm)busmanT wrote A few routes seem to have been speeded up/have reduced layover time, the 21 is another example (which, with the X1, is one of the few routes still to have a reduced evening frequency.

Washington is running an increased evening service now, but still below pre-Covid levels. X1 is hourly instead of half hourly (2 buses instead of 4). 4 is normal frequency to Houghton at once an hour, but the Heworth to Fatfield section is hourly as a result instead of every 20mins (again 2 buses instead of 4)

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(13 Sep 2020, 10:30 pm)Adrian wrote 1983 timetable:



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That's the same as the evening timetable of the X1. Leaves Newcastle on the hour and arrives into the Galleries at 27. That's with what looks like an extra stop at Wrekenton unless I'm mistaken and more traffic management "schemes" to negotiate.

From Shiney, the times are the same up until Houghton where there's an extra 3mins to get from Shiney, then another 2mins to get to Hetton and another 2 to get to Easington Lane.

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(13 Sep 2020, 11:22 pm)6049 wrote Washington is running an increased evening service now, but still below pre-Covid levels. X1 is hourly instead of half hourly (2 buses instead of 4). 4 is normal frequency to Houghton at once an hour, but the Heworth to Fatfield section is hourly as a result instead of every 20mins (again 2 buses instead of 4)

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That's the same as the evening timetable of the X1. Leaves Newcastle on the hour and arrives into the Galleries at 27. That's with what looks like an extra stop at Wrekenton unless I'm mistaken and more traffic management "schemes" to negotiate.

From Shiney, the times are the same up until Houghton where there's an extra 3mins to get from Shiney, then another 2mins to get to Hetton and another 2 to get to Easington Lane. 

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To be fair to the timetable department of almost 40 years ago, they didn't have the bus priority measures that their modern day equivalents have now. 

That extra 7 mins between Shiney Row and Easington Lane is a shocker though. Appreciate some of that will be down to Hetton Interchange, but if you equate that Shiney Row - Easington Lane - Shiney Row as one section, drivers and vehicles are almost 15mins down on where they were almost 40 years ago.
Forgetting about passenger experience for a moment and think about drivers hours, PVR's, wages etc that 15min difference alone will make a massive difference over the course of an operational week in any depot, nevermind a smaller one like Washington. It's scary as to the difference and savings there could potentially be - which looks like it is being ignored.

I mentioned Continuous Improvement over the weekend and how adding 35 seconds to the car manufacturing process could add up. Similarly, reducing the process by 35 seconds, can make huge savings.
For a PVR of 12, you're talking of potentially massive savings just by working on those 15mins with each vehicle and driver.