Just as well you weren't around in the days of OK Travel. They usually had their route number displayed in all sorts of places.

On the left - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658916747/
On the right - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658918829/
In the middle - https://www.flickr.com/photos/98464140@N06/10050224786/
Nearside of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/32481455737/
Middle of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/49953301082/
Under the windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22455491@N02/3456946570/
Somewhere squeezed on the destination blind - https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/16142289227/
Not at all - https://www.flickr.com/photos/57727182@N08/46656140055/
Or if you're lucky, a little tram board in the bottom of the windscreen obscured by wipers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/14451003351
Here's two buses with contrasting displays - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22342302@N05/2251977100/

(15 Dec 2020, 9:28 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Just as well you weren't around in the days of OK Travel. They usually had their route number displayed in all sorts of places.

On the left - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658916747/
On the right - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658918829/
In the middle - https://www.flickr.com/photos/98464140@N06/10050224786/
Nearside of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/32481455737/
Middle of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/49953301082/
Under the windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22455491@N02/3456946570/
Somewhere squeezed on the destination blind - https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/16142289227/
Not at all - https://www.flickr.com/photos/57727182@N08/46656140055/
Or if you're lucky, a little tram board in the bottom of the windscreen obscured by wipers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/14451003351
Here's two buses with contrasting displays - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22342302@N05/2251977100/

Wow my ocd is going crazy just looking ?

(15 Dec 2020, 9:28 pm)Rapidsnap wrote Just as well you weren't around in the days of OK Travel. They usually had their route number displayed in all sorts of places.

On the left - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658916747/
On the right - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10651736@N02/6658918829/
In the middle - https://www.flickr.com/photos/98464140@N06/10050224786/
Nearside of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/32481455737/
Middle of the Windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/49953301082/
Under the windscreen - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22455491@N02/3456946570/
Somewhere squeezed on the destination blind - https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/16142289227/
Not at all - https://www.flickr.com/photos/57727182@N08/46656140055/
Or if you're lucky, a little tram board in the bottom of the windscreen obscured by wipers. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/14451003351
Here's two buses with contrasting displays - https://www.flickr.com/photos/22342302@N05/2251977100/

All step entrance and acquired second/third/fourth hand buses too.
Good job time moves on and we see the sort of guidance which encourages those with disabilities to get out and about, with best practice published in a variety of sources regarding standardised displays too. 

Just the sort of best practice an operator with brand new vehicles (not vehicles acquired 25+ years ago) would adhere to...

The way things are going, with offside numbers, nearside numbers, coloured numbers, messages and whatever else - it's as though GNE are copying OK from back in the day.

To echo some user’s points; if number on either side is inconsequential to 99% of passengers but it being on the near side is beneficial to the remaining 1%, why wouldn’t you do it? Vanity? Navel gazing?

Obviously the argument with roller blinds was passenger convenience versus driver convenience with access to the controls without leaving the cab. Not relevant with digital blinds.

I can't believe we're still talking about it tbh, there's not much more to say really but it's getting dragged out now with it was like that in the 80's so it's fine now nonsense. James101 summed it up perfectly though imo.

I believe the main reason though is for people who struggle with basic tasks so need consistancy so it's just a code between all operators that it's in the same place on every bus so they know where to look and that's all they'll need ie they'll know the bus stop they'll know the number and know where to look. Your not meant to do advertising there neither or things which are irrelevant to the route ie Covid masks must be worn or new weekly tickets flashing on.

Below is the full recommendation from the PSVAR though:
A good destination and route number display will be clearly legible by day and night and commercial advertising should not detract from them. A consistent display design is also helpful, therefore the route number should always be to the right of the destination when viewed. Other major points on the route can be included but they should not detract from the clarity of the ultimate destination. Destination displays which simultaneously show both ends of a route are confusing and should be avoided. The destination appropriate to the direction of travel should be displayed or if a circular route such information necessary to identify the direction of travel.

It's why I've mentioned stuff about the arrows pointing at destinations before the point it's at as it also breaks the recommendation as the destinations aren't in the direction of travel.

Explanation from MG on the subject here —> https://twitter.com/martijngne/status/13...33869?s=21

(16 Dec 2020, 7:43 am)S813 FVK wrote Explanation from MG on the subject here —> https://twitter.com/martijngne/status/13...33869?s=21

Definitely agree that logically it makes sense to have the route number on the left as you don't say "Newcastle X21" you say "X21 to Newcastle", and on some vehicles like the B5s and StreetDecks, the last digit is definitely cut off when the vehicle is approaching.

But then again, I also don't think it's as simple 'if there's a queue of buses how can you see the route number', if there's traffic, chances are buses are bunched up against each other, and unless they're staggered you're not seeing the front display at all.
And if they aren't stopped but close together, by the time you see the front display, regardless of the side the number is on, it's too late for it to stop anyway!

I think for situations like the traffic having side displays that are actually visible off axis, and of a decent size would be way more useful than having the route number on the nearside. One of the things I like about the OmniDekkas is the size of the side display

(15 Dec 2020, 11:47 pm)James101 wrote To echo some user’s points; if number on either side is inconsequential to 99% of passengers but it being on the near side is beneficial to the remaining 1%, why wouldn’t you do it? Vanity? Navel gazing?

Obviously the argument with roller blinds was passenger convenience versus driver convenience with access to the controls without leaving the cab. Not relevant with digital blinds.

Step access, wheelchair bays, fold down seats etc are beneficial to a small minority of passengers, yet legislation was changed to accommodate the 1%.
The idea was to grow the 1% and allow them to feel able to use public transport.

To potentially alienate some of the 1% and not follow best practice, when at the same time crying/complaining that they need all the help they can to increase passenger numbers is a bit of a contradiction isn't it?

---

(16 Dec 2020, 7:43 am)S813 FVK wrote Explanation from MG on the subject here —> https://twitter.com/martijngne/status/13...33869?s=21

'Inspired by First Leeds' - except with the Yutongs.

When it suits...

(16 Dec 2020, 8:03 am)streetdeckfan wrote Definitely agree that logically it makes sense to have the route number on the left as you don't say "Newcastle X21" you say "X21 to Newcastle", and on some vehicles like the B5s and StreetDecks, the last digit is definitely cut off when the vehicle is approaching. 

But then again, I also don't think it's as simple 'if there's a queue of buses how can you see the route number', if there's traffic, chances are buses are bunched up against each other, and unless they're staggered you're not seeing the front display at all.
And if they aren't stopped but close together, by the time you see the front display, regardless of the side the number is on, it's too late for it to stop anyway!

I think for situations like the traffic having side displays that are actually visible off axis, and of a decent size would be way more useful than having the route number on the nearside. One of the things I like about the OmniDekkas is the size of the side display

Then surely the bus manufacturers need to work alongside the blind manufacturers to ensure best practice is adhered to?

Operators have control over quite a bit when ordering the manufacture of the vehicles. Why not step it up a bit and demand/ensure that the blinds follow best practice guidance?

I'm sure that someone in a wheelchair will appreciate it being the "X84 Hexham" instead of "Hexham X84" when they have to navigate their way around a stand to see the revised number placement. Or maybe trying to identify a Q3 on Gosforth high street following behind several Arriva deckers. I'm sure that people with special needs appreciate the Christmas music playing between announcements on an Angel decker too.

Turn it in with messing around with stuff that people silently rely on and focus on making sure it actually works for the "1%" of those who use buses. You know, those who are less likely to complain because it gets met with ableist crap?

(16 Dec 2020, 9:21 am)omnicity4659 wrote I'm sure that someone in a wheelchair will appreciate it being the "X84 Hexham" instead of "Hexham X84" when they have to navigate their way around a stand to see the revised number placement. Or maybe trying to identify a Q3 on Gosforth high street following behind several Arriva deckers. I'm sure that people with special needs appreciate the Christmas music playing between announcements on an Angel decker too.

Turn it in with messing around with stuff that people silently rely on and focus on making sure it actually works for the "1%" of those who use buses. You know, those who are less likely to complain because it gets met with ableist crap?

I presume the stand is at eldon square? If so, actually reading X84 Hexham is beneficial for all bus users at Eldon, as the window frames and information boards often obscure the route number.

As for the Q3, unless your standing in the middle of the road, you will be able to see a bright yellow bus among the sea of green DD. That was the main reason branding was introduced. Was it Chris Moyes/ Peter Huntley who said a colour is easier to spot than a number?

Music is often used as calming technique for those with special needs therefore music onboard will ease anxiety for those travelling, the music also stops to allow NSA to be heard. Win win?

(16 Dec 2020, 10:08 am)JP6004 wrote I presume the stand is at eldon square? If so, actually reading X84 Hexham is beneficial for all bus users at Eldon, as the window frames and information boards often obscure the route number.

As for the Q3, unless your standing in the middle of the road, you will be able to see a bright yellow bus among the sea of green DD. That was the main reason branding was introduced. Was it Chris Moyes/ Peter Huntley who said a colour is easier to spot than a number?

Music is often used as calming technique for those with special needs therefore music onboard will ease anxiety for those travelling, the music also stops to allow NSA to be heard. Win win?

I used the X84 as an example, there will always be places where the route number would be obscured regardless by other vehicles and street furniture, but it isn't as likely with them displayed on the right.

Colours and other special features should not be relied on when identifying any type of vehicle, not just limited to buses. Note that a lot of people are colourblind so may not be able to see the real colour of their bus.

You mean certain types of music across a huge spectrum of conditions. Everyone is different. Some people may not be able to cope with it and those people should be accommodated.

(16 Dec 2020, 10:29 am)omnicity4659 wrote You mean certain types of music across a huge spectrum of conditions. Everyone is different. Some people may not be able to cope with it and those people should be accommodated.

Wow. For someone who is pleading the company is demonstrating ignorance, I'm taken aback by the suggestion that after such a horrific year, that spreading some festive joy this Christmas isn't a good thing?

Look at the momentum that Go North East's very own 'coca cola truck' has had over the last few days - doesn't this prove this is exactly what people need right now, some happiness?

(16 Dec 2020, 10:57 am)Dan wrote Wow. For someone who is pleading the company is demonstrating ignorance, I'm taken aback by the suggestion that after such a horrific year, that spreading some festive joy this Christmas isn't a good thing?

Look at the momentum that Go North East's very own 'coca cola truck' has had over the last few days - doesn't this prove this is exactly what people need right now, some happiness?

What has festive joy got to do with making things accessible? Have the lights, have the decorations, just don't start fiddling with stuff which could have a negative impact on quite a lot of people with sensory issues.

Lets put a Christmas tree in the wheelchair space, or is there something wrong with that? Maybe its the fact that you can see a disabled person struggling physically but not mentally/emotionally?

(16 Dec 2020, 11:02 am)omnicity4659 wrote Lets put a Christmas tree in the wheelchair space, or is there something wrong with that? Maybe its the fact that you can see a disabled person struggling physically but not mentally/emotionally?

...yet Go North East have specific mental health and disability awareness training in place for its employees, and are supporters of the sunflower lanyard scheme (just recently updating its 'fare barcodes' on the side of each bus to raise awareness).

https://twitter.com/Dan3942/status/1339168063862796289

You're right, they don't care at all.

I think everyone who has written in to suggest Go North East's actions this week in spreading happiness and joy, especially to children (including those that are on the autism spectrum), are commendable, should take back their positive feedback.

Based on training I have received on autism awareness, chances are that the person living with autism would also struggle with the ordinary next stop announcements, if they find music and sound so unbearable.

Some people really will moan about anything that Go North East does...

(16 Dec 2020, 10:29 am)omnicity4659 wrote I used the X84 as an example, there will always be places where the route number would be obscured regardless by other vehicles and street furniture, but it isn't as likely with them displayed on the right.

Colours and other special features should not be relied on when identifying any type of vehicle, not just limited to buses. Note that a lot of people are colourblind so may not be able to see the real colour of their bus.

I personally think on the left is better. Much easier to see in main interchanges, if vehicles are parked on the roadside, you will be able to see the route number first, which would otherwise be obscured until the last moment (central station good example of this). If the there was traffic, then surely they wont be travelling at speed, meaning you wont miss it. Also I'd imagine the drivers wont be in a bumper to bumper convoy, preventing you seeing the bus coming....unless you are standing in the middle of the road.
Yes some people are colourblind, however they will still be able to notice a visible contrast. Colours aren't used solely for identifying different routes, however it does increase accessibility on main bus routes, especially those who have impaired vision

(16 Dec 2020, 11:32 am)Dan wrote ...yet Go North East have specific mental health and disability awareness training in place for its employees, and are supporters of the sunflower lanyard scheme (just recently updating its 'fare barcodes' on the side of each bus to raise awareness).

https://twitter.com/Dan3942/status/1339168063862796289

You're right, they don't care at all.

It's great to see that another company is educating itself and its employees on inclusion, but it goes a long way beyond lanyards and stickers on a bus. People who make decisions which affect others need to understand thoroughly or seek advice on how to be inclusive to those with hidden disabilities.

I think everyone who has written in to suggest Go North East's actions this week in spreading happiness and joy, especially to children (including those that are on the autism spectrum), are commendable, should take back their positive feedback.

Good for them. This isn't an argument about whether people like it or not, it's about whether certain people can cope with it. Obviously, the majority of the public reaction would be positive because the majority of bus users aren't living with sensory issues.

Based on training I have received on autism awareness, chances are that the person living with autism would also struggle with the ordinary next stop announcements, if they find music and sound so unbearable.

So let's add more sound into the mix?   Some people can just about cope with next stop announcements, some people don't mind them, and some people can't tolerate them. Everyone is different - I'd pray that that point was emphasised during your training.



[quote pid="251461" dateline="1608118367"]
Some people really will moan about anything that Go North East does...
[/quote]


I'm critical of actions taken by other organisations too. Go North East are one of the better companies, but they still have a long way to go.

(16 Dec 2020, 11:32 am)Dan wrote ...yet Go North East have specific mental health and disability awareness training in place for its employees, and are supporters of the sunflower lanyard scheme (just recently updating its 'fare barcodes' on the side of each bus to raise awareness).

https://twitter.com/Dan3942/status/1339168063862796289

You're right, they don't care at all.

I think everyone who has written in to suggest Go North East's actions this week in spreading happiness and joy, especially to children (including those that are on the autism spectrum), are commendable, should take back their positive feedback.

Based on training I have received on autism awareness, chances are that the person living with autism would also struggle with the ordinary next stop announcements, if they find music and sound so unbearable. 

Some people really will moan about anything that Go North East does...

The sunflower lanyard scheme is great.
I think it has done a wonderful job at raising awareness of hidden disabilities. 

We used one for middle Constantopolous when we were flying this year. On boarding, a member of the crew spotted it straight away and asked if they needed to be aware of anything or make adjustments. We explained that it was the face mask issue we were worried about and in this case, he is normally fine with travelling but can be sensitive to certain sounds. 

The autism awareness and dda training that member of staff (potentially the entire crew) had completed instantly put us at ease and the flight went without issues. 

Assuming the drivers of the 21 see this lanyard, are they able to take action based on the needs of specific passengers? Such as turning off the music if a passenger has a particular sensitivity? Or are passengers forced to get off at the next stop? 

As a side note, we saw our local santa display a fortnight back. The music and sounds were a bit too much for middle Constantopolous.
I'd assume it would be the same if we happened to see the open topper go past. 

Should GNE stop all of this festive frivolity?
Of course not. 

Should they be sensitive to certain needs and wearers of the lanyard scheme they are so proud to be members of?
Of course they should but the next question which needs to be asked is - are they?

(16 Dec 2020, 12:43 pm)Andreos1 wrote Assuming the drivers of the 21 see this lanyard, are they able to take action based on the needs of specific passengers? Such as turning off the music if a passenger has a particular sensitivity? Or are passengers forced to get off at the next stop?

Indeed they are - it's only a handful of drivers who are going to be driving it (dressed as Santa, no less) and the radio is in the cab of the bus which the driver is in control of.

I think omnicity4659 was a bit too quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story!

(16 Dec 2020, 12:51 pm)Dan wrote Indeed they are - it's only a handful of drivers who are going to be driving it (dressed as Santa, no less) and the radio is in the cab of the bus which the driver is in control of.

I think omnicity4659 was a bit too quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story!

I don't think he was being too quick at all. 
He had concerns and voiced them. 

It is good to hear that the drivers are aware of things like the lanyard scheme and if a passenger with a specific need has the confidence or ability (or has someone else with them) to ask for the music to be turned down, then they can do and the drivers will be willing and able to do so.

Similarly, I'd hope drivers display the sort of awareness or understanding like the member of the crew did and be pro-active about any specific needs on seeing a lanyard

(16 Dec 2020, 12:51 pm)Dan wrote Indeed they are - it's only a handful of drivers who are going to be driving it (dressed as Santa, no less) and the radio is in the cab of the bus which the driver is in control of.

I think omnicity4659 was a bit too quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story!

Is this the system there was talks of a while back where the driver will be able to make announcements? Or is it just an iPod duct taped into the NSA system?

(16 Dec 2020, 12:51 pm)Dan wrote Indeed they are - it's only a handful of drivers who are going to be driving it (dressed as Santa, no less) and the radio is in the cab of the bus which the driver is in control of.

I think omnicity4659 was a bit too quick to jump to conclusions without knowing the full story!

Disappointed its santa driving i think it should be an elf

(16 Dec 2020, 5:34 pm)idiot wrote Disappointed its santa driving i think it should be an elf

Last year, one of our local buses was being driven by the Grinch!

(16 Dec 2020, 5:34 pm)idiot wrote Disappointed its santa driving i think it should be an elf

I think Dan is probably too busy

Hahha the Grinch thats great!

Im wearing my elf hat today on deliveries (for amazon)

(17 Dec 2020, 7:05 am)idiot wrote Hahha the Grinch thats great!

It was better than that - the driver is someone I've known many years (we used to chase class 50s together!) and hence knows my daughter, so he spoke to her, by name, really confusing her!

How long is the 6 cylinder StreetDeck expected to stay at each depot? It seems to have been on the X21 for quite a while now

6377 is now back at Riverside and is on the X9/X10

Has anyone managed to catch a ride on 6377 on the X9/X10 yet?

On the motorway sections of the X21 the ride was buttery smooth and you could barely hear the engine, so I'd imagine it'd be the same over that way.

(22 Dec 2020, 11:59 am)streetdeckfan wrote Has anyone managed to catch a ride on 6377 on the X9/X10 yet?

On the motorway sections of the X21 the ride was buttery smooth and you could barely hear the engine, so I'd imagine it'd be the same over that way.

Not personally, but my friend who's on the X9/X10 rota said it does 60mph up the bank passed the old Sunderland Echo building on the A19, so it sounds like it's quite decent on the route. Mind, the same might have been said about the B9s.