(19 Jan 2022, 2:04 pm)Storx wrote I can't see any new depot in North Tyneside, the place blatantly barely makes any money considering every route is subsidised bar the 1/309/310/311 and the last 3 are on a reduced timetable at night time because, 'North Tyneside is a low usage area during the day, never mind the evening,' and the drivers are used elsewhere as said last night.

There's no chance for getting investment in a full depot out there imo unless something changes big time or there's some form of working together with other operators to save money, work with Arriva at Walkergate for example which supposedly is going to have electric charging potential but that sort of partnership is unknown.

I know this was said in a different thread but it's not correct. The drivers that would normally have been driving the evening 1, 309, 310, 311, 18 and 19 etc that have now been cancelled are actually sat in the depot canteen for 5-6 hours doing nothing, there is usually 5 or so sat there

(19 Jan 2022, 2:09 pm)Thomas12 wrote The Little Coasters services aren't subsidised during the day, apart from the northern sections of the 42/42A. I also believe the 19 is commercial between Northumberland Park and North Shields during the day.

Apologies misworded that, that just meant in general at anytime rather than fully subsidised. I can't imagine an operator would openly let another operator run their services (badly) at night if they were top performers as seen with Arriva who suddenly decided everything could be ran by them in Durham in the end. I believe most the Arriva network is commercial now and I can't imagine the 53 and the likes making a fortune (if anything) at night - I could be wrong there but they don't seem to go up for tender.

(19 Jan 2022, 2:25 pm)soxet12 wrote I know this was said in a different thread but it's not correct. The drivers that would normally have been driving the cancelled services on the evening 1, 310 311, 18 and 19 etc are actually sat in the depot canteen for 5-6 hours doing nothing, there is usually 5 or so sat there

Ah really, honestly I'd say I'm surprised but I'm not tbh.

(19 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Storx wrote Apologies misworded that, that just meant in general at anytime rather than fully subsidised. I can't imagine an operator would openly let another operator run their services (badly) at night if they were top performers as seen with Arriva who suddenly decided everything could be ran by them in Durham in the end. I believe most the Arriva network is commercial now and I can't imagine the 53 and the likes making a fortune (if anything) at night - I could be wrong there but they don't seem to go up for tender.


Ah really, honestly I'd say I'm surprised but I'm not tbh.

Ah okay sorry, I understand what you are saying now. I believe the 1 is subsidised between Whitley Bay and North Shields on an evening too, but I'm not 100% sure on that.  

I agree with your point, especially an operator like Gateshead Central Taxis. There seems to be a bus missing from the evening/Sunday 41/41A every time I try to catch it, to the point where I've just given up. Hopefully they manage to win them back in March but I'm very doubtful about that.

(19 Jan 2022, 2:26 pm)Storx wrote Apologies misworded that, that just meant in general at anytime rather than fully subsidised. I can't imagine an operator would openly let another operator run their services (badly) at night if they were top performers as seen with Arriva who suddenly decided everything could be ran by them in Durham in the end. I believe most the Arriva network is commercial now and I can't imagine the 53 and the likes making a fortune (if anything) at night - I could be wrong there but they don't seem to go up for tender.

Some services receive deminimis funding, so there isn't a formal tender and the operator provides the local authority with a price without going through the formal procurement process. I think you'll find a lot of Arriva and Stagecoach services receive deminimis funding - from memory there has been an FOI request in the past to Nexus confirming details of all contracts including those with deminimis funding.

Evening journeys on service 53 are secured, and indeed Nexus had (until they withdrew all tenders for March 2022) actually put out a tender to operate the 53 on an evening this year. Hourly departures at 20:24, 21:24 and 22:24 from North Shields, and 20:25, 21:25 and 22:25 from Cramlington (with the final departures currently at 23:11 from Cramlington and 23:24 from North Shields cancelled).

(19 Jan 2022, 2:34 pm)Thomas12 wrote Ah okay sorry, I understand what you are saying now. I believe the 1 is subsidised between Whitley Bay and North Shields on an evening too, but I'm not 100% sure on that.  

I agree with your point, especially an operator like Gateshead Central Taxis. There seems to be a bus missing from the evening/Sunday 41/41A every time I try to catch it, to the point where I've just given up. Hopefully they manage to win them back in March but I'm very doubtful about that.

Yeah I know, just found a document (see below) and the 1 is subsidised in the evening and mornings aswell, appears to be the full route aswell.

(19 Jan 2022, 2:37 pm)Dan wrote Some services receive deminimis funding, so there isn't a formal tender and the operator provides the local authority with a price without going through the formal procurement process. I think you'll find a lot of Arriva and Stagecoach services receive deminimis funding - from memory there has been an FOI request in the past to Nexus confirming details of all contracts including those with deminimis funding.

Evening journeys on service 53 are secured, and indeed Nexus had (until they withdrew all tenders for March 2022) actually put out a tender to operate the 53 on an evening this year. Hourly departures at 20:24, 21:24 and 22:24 from North Shields, and 20:25, 21:25 and 22:25 from Cramlington (with the final departures currently at 23:11 from Cramlington and 23:24 from North Shields cancelled).

Interesting, always thought it was odd how some didn't go for tender, just found a document with all the routes - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/6...sthrough=1 and there's some right surprises on there.

The 20 between South Shields and Sunderland during the week in the evening is a surprise tbh. Infact quite a lot of the Sunderland network seems to be subsidised at nights, assuming these are won in the same way.

Didn't realise the 51/51A (Arriva) was a fully subsidised route either. Mind I'm surprised the 46/52/54 Arriva aren't on there though.

so am i right in thinking if a bus service doesnt appear on that list it is fully commercial?

(19 Jan 2022, 3:58 pm)Rob44 wrote so am i right in thinking if a bus service doesnt appear on that list it is fully commercial?

Fully commercial, or not supported by Nexus, yes.

(19 Jan 2022, 4:01 pm)Dan wrote Fully commercial, or not supported by Nexus, yes.

wow i am speechless and that doesn't happen very often.  Obviously of the buses i use i new the 29 was sub apart from the first run which is operated by GCT. But i thought the 28b on and evening and especially a Sunday would have been. Plus the 44 and 45 for Dinnington's on evenings and Sundays look like arriva run them without any help which also surprises me!

So is that why the 52 finishes alot earlier than the 53,because it isnt subsidised?

(19 Jan 2022, 3:00 pm)Storx wrote Yeah I know, just found a document (see below) and the 1 is subsidised in the evening and mornings aswell, appears to be the full route aswell.


Interesting, always thought it was odd how some didn't go for tender, just found a document with all the routes - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/6...sthrough=1 and there's some right surprises on there.

The 20 between South Shields and Sunderland during the week in the evening is a surprise tbh. Infact quite a lot of the Sunderland network seems to be subsidised at nights, assuming these are won in the same way.

Didn't realise the 51/51A (Arriva) was a fully subsidised route either. Mind I'm surprised the 46/52/54 Arriva aren't on there though.

Wow...didn't realise there were so many.

If I'm reading that correctly....nigh on £200,000 on the 23 between Birtley and Washington

Christ they could probably uber everyone around for a quarter of the cost. No wonder Cnetral Govt is wary of giving Nexus any money

(19 Jan 2022, 2:04 pm)Storx wrote I can't see any new depot in North Tyneside, the place blatantly barely makes any money considering every route is subsidised bar the 1/309/310/311 and the last 3 are on a reduced timetable at night time because, 'North Tyneside is a low usage area during the day, never mind the evening,' and the drivers are used elsewhere as said last night.

During January, it would make sense to drop the evening 311 runs. If anything, the drivers can then be used elsewhere or on standby to cover self isolation / sickness.

The Coaster has taken a hit over the years but the Cobalt & Coast routes have never been stronger.

(19 Jan 2022, 3:00 pm)Storx wrote Yeah I know, just found a document (see below) and the 1 is subsidised in the evening and mornings aswell, appears to be the full route aswell.


Interesting, always thought it was odd how some didn't go for tender, just found a document with all the routes - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/6...sthrough=1 and there's some right surprises on there.

The 20 between South Shields and Sunderland during the week in the evening is a surprise tbh. Infact quite a lot of the Sunderland network seems to be subsidised at nights, assuming these are won in the same way.

Didn't realise the 51/51A (Arriva) was a fully subsidised route either. Mind I'm surprised the 46/52/54 Arriva aren't on there though.

If anyone's interested, there's a similar document available for DCC supported services - although it is a couple years out of date now. 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/a...ng-1109879

Various parts of evening services, such as the 6, 14 (now X20), 15, 16A, 28/28B, 34/34A, 78, X25, X30, X70

(19 Jan 2022, 9:03 pm)peter wrote If anyone's interested, there's a similar document available for DCC supported services - although it is a couple years out of date now. 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/a...ng-1109879

Various parts of evening services, such as the 6, 14 (now X20), 15, 16A, 28/28B, 34/34A, 78, X25, X30, X70

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1591624

Northumberland aswell might aswell add it in. Seems like everything from GNE other than the 10 is subsidised (even the 309).

(19 Jan 2022, 9:51 pm)Storx wrote https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1591624

Northumberland aswell might aswell add it in. Seems like everything from GNE other than the 10 is subsidised (even the 309).

I think that 309 was subsidised starting back in 2013 when GNE tried withdrawing a journey that got workers into Cobalt before 7am. It was momths before the Mercs/Omnis were replaced with B9TLs.

To be fair, GNE have been fairly generous with journeys to and from Blyth since 2016 although not running quite as early / late as Arriva but still better than previously.

(19 Jan 2022, 9:51 pm)Storx wrote https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/b...ng-1591624

Northumberland aswell might aswell add it in. Seems like everything from GNE other than the 10 is subsidised (even the 309).

Aye, there was all sorts of issues a few years back when GNE wanted to withdraw a couple of early morning runs from Blyth. 
Not sure it was NCC, but pretty certain some local councillors got involved to ensure those runs continued.

Mod note: I've split a bunch of posts from the original thread around Percy Main depot.

I think operator's should be put a nexus symbol on timetables like they did years ago.

(20 Jan 2022, 7:21 pm)idiot wrote I think operator's should be put a nexus symbol on timetables like they did years ago.

Operators would need to print paper timetables first to do that! Not many do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well i mean all formats including pdfs.

(20 Jan 2022, 11:19 pm)idiot wrote Well i mean all formats including pdfs.

Just had a quick look and noticed Nexus don't even do this on the PDF timetables they produce, nor do they do so on the bus stop liners. I'm not sure you could mandate an operator to do something that you're not doing yourself. 

Although for transparency, I think the list should be more readily available than having to request using the Freedom of Information Act, I'd argue that it's not important to the vast majority of customers reading those timetables. A timetable should be easy to read and clutter free.

I am sure i once looked at a timetable at a bus stop and it said something like journeys marked with a $ are aoperated by ( insert bus company) on behalf of nexus. Not seen any recently though

(21 Jan 2022, 11:46 am)Rob44 wrote I am sure i once looked at a timetable at a bus stop and it said something like journeys marked with a $ are aoperated by ( insert bus company) on behalf of nexus. Not seen any recently though

I know some operator timetables used to indicate which journeys are tendered usually with an $ or a footnote at the bottom of the timetable (latter usually applied for fully supported services). Can't remember the last time I saw that happen up here although the methods used for timetables online now don't help matters, impossible enough to understand as it is especially Arriva's.

(21 Jan 2022, 12:09 pm)Jimmi wrote I know some operator timetables used to indicate which journeys are tendered usually with an $ or a footnote at the bottom of the timetable (latter usually applied for fully supported services). Can't remember the last time I saw that happen up here although the methods used for timetables online now don't help matters, impossible enough to understand as it is especially Arriva's.

A good start would be to acknowledge the route even exists first. GNE is really bad for it, I know the printed timetables have them displayed but if you looked at the 11 for example you'd think the last bus was 17:32 out of Wallsend.

https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/f...131021.pdf - Btw it still happens up here on Nexus though (if it's a different operator).

(21 Jan 2022, 12:16 pm)Storx wrote A good start would be to acknowledge the route even exists first. GNE is really bad for it, I know the printed timetables have them displayed but if you looked at the 11 for example you'd think the last bus was 17:32 out of Wallsend.

https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/f...131021.pdf - Btw it still happens up here on Nexus though (if it's a different operator).

Does a fare arrangement exist for the GCT operated 11 journeys? i.e. can Go Zones tickets be used or is the £1 fare valid?

(21 Jan 2022, 12:35 pm)Adrian wrote Does a fare arrangement exist for the GCT operated 11 journeys? i.e. can Go Zones tickets be used or is the £1 fare valid?

Im sure when the 29 was paid by nexus you couldnt use the puprple day ticket on it or buy it ( or whatever the ticket was called back then) on that service, and it was 10p more expensive to gateshead than the 28a but 10p cheap to saisbuyrys from kibblesworth

(21 Jan 2022, 12:35 pm)Adrian wrote Does a fare arrangement exist for the GCT operated 11 journeys? i.e. can Go Zones tickets be used or is the £1 fare valid?

Yes, Go Zones are valid on all Little Coasters services operated by Gateshead Central on evenings and Sundays. The £1 fare is supposed to be available, but apparently GCT say not as its a Go North East offer.

(21 Jan 2022, 11:46 am)Rob44 wrote I am sure i once looked at a timetable at a bus stop and it said something like journeys marked with a $ are aoperated by ( insert bus company) on behalf of nexus.  Not seen any recently though

They often used the Nexus pipes when that logo was first introduced.

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(21 Jan 2022, 12:16 pm)Storx wrote A good start would be to acknowledge the route even exists first. GNE is really bad for it, I know the printed timetables have them displayed but if you looked at the 11 for example you'd think the last bus was 17:32 out of Wallsend. 

https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/f...131021.pdf - Btw it still happens up here on Nexus though (if it's a different operator).

I've said similar in the past.
Surely it's just basic joined up thinking. It's not one upmanship, it's not a shrug of the shoulders it should be about all operators working for the benefit of the passenger and could possibly see the overall numbers on daytime and evening services actually increase.

(21 Jan 2022, 12:35 pm)Adrian wrote Does a fare arrangement exist for the GCT operated 11 journeys? i.e. can Go Zones tickets be used or is the £1 fare valid?

I'm honestly not sure if the £1 fares are available (I don't think so). Pre purchased GoNorthEast tickets and passes are valid though according to the printed timetable.

The fact were having this discussion shows how confusing it is, we know how to read a timetable god knows what Betty who uses the bus once a month would think.