(03 Apr 2022, 8:26 pm)DeltaMan wrote You cannot inter-time services with uneven round trip times unless you are prepared to have a load of inefficiency.

The round trip running times from Chester to South Shields and Chester to Sunderland means you cannot coordinate them between Washington and Chester unless you have one of the buses sitting at either Sunderland or South Shields for half an hour.

Can't or won't? Does the operator serve the customer, or does the customer serve the operator?

The frequency of buses, and especially on an evening, is one of the big reasons why people don't want to use them or switch from their car. It feels like operators want people to change their travel habits, but are seldom prepared to change their own habits.

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(03 Apr 2022, 8:43 pm)Adrian wrote Can't or won't? Does the operator serve the customer, or does the customer serve the operator?

The frequency of buses, and especially on an evening, is one of the big reasons why people don't want to use them or switch from their car. It feels like operators want people to change their travel habits, but are seldom prepared to change their own habits.

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Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.

Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point. 

The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.

(03 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm)DeltaMan wrote Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.

Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point.  

The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.

28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!

As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.

(04 Apr 2022, 8:23 am)Andreos1 wrote 28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!

As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.

The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths. 

The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many.

There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...

(04 Apr 2022, 9:19 am)DeltaMan wrote The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths. 

The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many. 

There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...

I'm not sure it is the main issue to be honest. It's certainly an issue for some, but hanging around waiting the best part of an hour or looking at alternatives is probably a bigger issue.
As is actually being able to get a bus (assuming it hasn't been axed because there's not enough money in it for the operator).
Which in the hub and spoke model operated by the likes of GNE, has a knock on effect to the core routes such as the 21. If there's no buses to connect to (or an hours wait for a connection), then it reduces the likely hood of x number of people using the 21.
Regardless of bricks or anti-social behaviour.

I mentioned internal and external factors the other day. I think we all agree that external factors are out of the operators control. They can't stop a brick being thrown in the direction of a bus.
However those internal factors such as timetabling and ensuring passengers don't have to wait an hour are within their control.
It's whether they choose to do something about it.

(03 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm)DeltaMan wrote Its a balancing act, as in the case of all bus operation, time is literally money.

Similar thing occured to me when I was using TFL buses on an evening a while back, resulting in a 28 minute wait as the two buses didn't connect at a common terminus point. 

The other thing i'd say is that most drivers do not like lates. Indeed, there are plenty of independent operators out there that make a point of stating they don't operate lates in job ads. So that is something else that operators need to be mindful of.

It should be a balancing act, but more often than not, it's completely imbalanced in the favour of operators. It's something that needs to change in my opinion, getting back to the purpose of operation in the first place: serving customers. 

It's not just most drivers that don't like lates. Most people that I know or work with will say the same about lates and night shifts, or even weekends for that matter. Any business needs to serve demand though, so if there's a need for more evening buses, it would be stupid to ignore that. You can't expect customers to only want to travel when you want to serve them.

(04 Apr 2022, 8:23 am)Andreos1 wrote 28mins? That's like a dream to some punters up in the NE! Don't go shouting about it. People will get jealous!

As for the first point. Time is money, but if people aren't using buses on an evening, then those supposed money saving strategies you mention aren't really working.
If it is about making things more attractive and encouraging people to use public transport - getting rid of almost hour long waits on the way by organising the headway, then maybe they need to start making the hit with that waiting time OR looking at other options to make it work. Something different and creative perhaps.

There needs to be something. During the day it's generally ideal, and you're never waiting too long for a connection, or at least you can generally avoid it by planning your route. It's a complete contrast on an evening, and there's nothing more unattractive about using public transport, than being stood out in the cold, open to the elements, for an extended wait for a connecting bus.

(04 Apr 2022, 9:19 am)DeltaMan wrote The point I was making that even in the exemplar of a "coordinated" transport system, I have experienced first hand the issues many complain about up here. And its down to simple maths. 

The main issue with late buses, especially around some parts of the North East if we are being honest, is anti social behavior. If I was a non bus users and kept reading about buses being bricked and anti social behavior at interchanges, why would I put myself in a position of harm? And thats before the timetable is even looked at. That alone means public transport is last resort for many.

There is a service suggestion thread, so the floor is yours if you have better idea of potential late night route cycles...

Anti-social behaviour is a major problem, I agree, and one that probably needs a mutli-agency approach to deal with. I don't think the answer is to avoid after dusk running though. Operators are doing their part by running the services, so it's really up to Nexus, the Councils and the Police to tackle the anti-social behaviour and to offer some kind of deterrent, especially in bus stations.

Washington Galleries, for example, is a nightmare on an evening. I was there one evening last week waiting for a connection, and you had dogs running around whilst their owners were drinking, some drunk lasses faffing about on the escalators, kids riding around on their bikes shouting and screaming. You can see why it would deter people from public transport, but some people have no choice.

(04 Apr 2022, 10:47 am)Adrian wrote There needs to be something. During the day it's generally ideal, and you're never waiting too long for a connection, or at least you can generally avoid it by planning your route. It's a complete contrast on an evening, and there's nothing more unattractive about using public transport, than being stood out in the cold, open to the elements, for an extended wait for a connecting bus.

Yes, I had to wait for a 56 because delays on the Metro resulted in me missing the last train home. The 40 minute wait in Newcastle City Centre in the middle of January was not fun, and that's not factoring in everyone who was slightly tipsy and shouting on a night out. Having said that, I am thankful that the 56 does run all night now - don't know what I'd have done otherwise (and now I get it most nights with a 5-10 min wait if Metro's on time - I don't mind paying a little more for a slightly longer journey if it means I get dropped off a bit closer to my flat).

(04 Apr 2022, 10:35 am)Andreos1 wrote I'm not sure it is the main issue to be honest. It's certainly an issue for some, but hanging around waiting the best part of an hour or looking at alternatives is probably a bigger issue.
As is actually being able to get a bus (assuming it hasn't been axed because there's not enough money in it for the operator).
Which in the hub and spoke model operated by the likes of GNE, has a knock on effect to the core routes such as the 21. If there's no buses to connect to (or an hours wait for a connection), then it reduces the likely hood of x number of people using the 21.
Regardless of bricks or anti-social behaviour.

I mentioned internal and external factors the other day. I think we all agree that external factors are out of the operators control. They can't stop a brick being thrown in the direction of a bus.
However those internal factors such as timetabling and ensuring passengers don't have to wait an hour are within their control.
It's whether they choose to do something about it.

Its a fair point about connections with the 21 specifically where an improvement to evenings would be possible with a very minor change. 

I hate to use this example, but the 71 from Chester has a very optimistic connection with the 21 from Durham. Assuming the 71 is one bus in the evenings (which according to the timetable, it should be) surely that could leave a couple of minutes later from Chester and save folk a 40 or 58 minute wait.

I can't see any reason why that couldnt happen. It would still meet the 20 to/from Sunderland

So operators need to look at quick wins like that in the evenings before expanding late services

When I used to get the bus to work i got the bus to Sainsburys team valley and it was timed to get there 2 minutes after the 94 was due to leave which was the bus i needed to get to work. So standing in the cold and wet for 15 minutes ( hopefully ) for the next one which with my luck tended to be late! In the car i would be at work in 10 minutes

When I go out, I have a 14 minute wait at Monument because the train from Sunderland arrives 1 minute after the train to Shields leaves (connection time from the 56 is 3 or 4 minutes - far from ideal either). It's made worse by the fact the departure board on Monument Upper is wildly inaccurate until the train's arrived.

(05 Apr 2022, 1:31 pm)Rob44 wrote When I used to get the bus to work i got the bus to Sainsburys team valley and it was timed to get there 2 minutes after the 94 was due to leave which was the bus i needed to get to work. So standing in the cold and wet for 15 minutes ( hopefully ) for the next one which with my luck tended to be late! In the car i would be at work in 10 minutes

of course the flip side to that was folk who needed to catch the bus you got off and were on the 94 had a connection

(05 Apr 2022, 2:50 pm)citaro5284 wrote of course the flip side to that was folk who needed to catch the bus you got off and were on the 94 had a connection

True.. but in an ideal world one would wait for the other to pull in, drop of the ones wanting the other one then drive off just as the passenger gets to the doors blowing them a kiss as it drives into the distance.  

Also not sure why anyone would get off the 94 to jump on the 28a......

(05 Apr 2022, 4:21 pm)Rob44 wrote True.. but in an ideal world one would wait for the other to pull in, drop of the ones wanting the other one then drive off just as the passenger gets to the doors blowing them a kiss as it drives into the distance.  

Also not sure why anyone would get off the 94 to jump on the 28a......

I think only frequency solves this issue. Generally operators can only work this with the majority flow of travel, as timing two buses to arrive at exactly the same time doesn't work. 

The X1 and 4 originally did this at Washington Galleries, but in reality it never really worked as intended due to punctuality issues.

(05 Apr 2022, 12:39 pm)DeltaMan wrote Its a fair point about connections with the 21 specifically where an improvement to evenings would be possible with a very minor change. 

I hate to use this example, but the 71 from Chester has a very optimistic connection with the 21 from Durham. Assuming the 71 is one bus in the evenings (which according to the timetable, it should be) surely that could leave a couple of minutes later from Chester and save folk a 40 or 58 minute wait. 

I can't see any reason why that couldnt happen. It would still meet the 20 to/from Sunderland

So operators need to look at quick wins like that in the evenings before expanding late services

Nowt wrong with bringing the 71 up. Between you and me I think it's a service that could and should have more discussion on here. 

But yeah, that's a perfect case in example. 
If 10 people are on the 21 and 5 get off in Chester to connect with a 28, 34, 50, 71 or 78 - then they're probably wanting that connection to be as timely as it is at other times of the day. 
If those connections don't work or the timings aren't attractive - then that could be 5 people who look at alternatives and it's potentially 5 less people on the 21.
All of a sudden that 21 run becomes less viable than it already is. 

As you say, it's a quick win. It's something that could not only keep those original 10 on board - it could allow for and encourage further growth.

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(05 Apr 2022, 2:50 pm)citaro5284 wrote of course the flip side to that was folk who needed to catch the bus you got off and were on the 94 had a connection

And that's where all this fancy technology can come in to determine travel patterns.
Assuming passengers haven't been put off by the wait outside sainsburys and have persevered with public transport - then the back office systems would identify that its a key interchange point and ensure connections are improved.
Another quick win.

PB0003954/1268
New GO NORTH EAST LIMITED X75 Newcastle, Haymarket Wallington Hall


So far doesn't have a start date on the VOSA info.

From Monday 25th April 2022, X10 will now depart from Stand F at Eldon Square

I believe this is where the 25/X21/X12 depart from

(23 Apr 2022, 7:32 pm)Unber43 wrote From Monday 25th April 2022, X10 will now depart from Stand F at Eldon Square

I believe this is where the 25/X21/X12 depart from

This will be due to the X1 times clashing with the X10 times

Didn’t the 55 get retimed in the last lot of changes to improve the Easington corridor and Durham road corridor?, just that at Easington at 14:15 today inbound to Peterlee the 55 was about 3 minutes late but it was right behind the x1 which was 10 minutes early , wonder if the x1 driver wanting a big layover at Peterlee terminus


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(30 Apr 2022, 1:38 pm)cbma06 wrote Didn’t the 55 get retimed in the last lot of changes to improve the Easington corridor and Durham road corridor?, just that at Easington at 14:15 today inbound to Peterlee the 55 was about 3 minutes late but it was right behind the x1 which was 10 minutes early , wonder if the x1 driver wanting a big layover at Peterlee terminus


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Yes for Easington & A690 to Houghton. Its always 20's whcih are late

I loved the September 5th Changes with a lot of services changing with some bring new branding opportunities like the Red Kite Ranger 47/47A bringing back parts of the old 46A and having Red Kite and Derwent Ranger merge to make 1 new brand. Really want another one just to see what would change.

(23 Apr 2022, 7:32 pm)Unber43 wrote From Monday 25th April 2022, X10 will now depart from Stand F at Eldon Square

I believe this is where the 25/X21/X12 depart from

Gonna be fun down that end of Eldon Square.

the X77/87 Stagecoach queue is normally way back past John Lewis, the ever unreliable angel queue is often just as bad and adding a X10 to the mix down that end of stands. God love nexus

(30 Apr 2022, 9:23 pm)Ambassador wrote Gonna be fun down that end of Eldon Square.

the X77/87 Stagecoach queue is normally way back past John Lewis, the ever unreliable angel queue is often just as bad and adding a X10 to the mix down that end of stands. God love nexus

Was there the other day at 17:00, cancelled X45/46 Queues reaching the X1 stand, X1 Queues so long, X30/31/70/71 queues really long, X10 queues, X21 Queues it was mayhem.

(30 Apr 2022, 9:41 pm)Unber43 wrote Was there the other day at 17:00, cancelled X45/46 Queues reaching the X1 stand, X1 Queues so long, X30/31/70/71 queues really long, X10 queues, X21 Queues it was mayhem.

The 18:25 309 ex Newcastle was very late last night due to what I think was a delayed driver change at New York. The 18:35 310 departed before the 309 and the 18:45 311 ended up overtaking us on the Coast Road. Ended up 20 minutes late by the time I got off due to the tidal effect of passengers. Bustimes only showed 15 seats available by the time we left Sandyford.

(01 May 2022, 7:48 am)L469 YVK wrote The 18:25 309 ex Newcastle was very late last night due to what I think was a delayed driver change at New York. The 18:35 310 departed before the 309 and the 18:45 311 ended up overtaking us on the Coast Road. Ended up 20 minutes late by the time I got off due to the tidal effect of passengers.  Bustimes only showed 15 seats available by the time we left Sandyford. 

People sitting on the stairs on multiple journies on the X10 yesterday.
Possibly a combination of a now hourly service, both Newcastle & Middlesbrough playing at home and the trains being off along the coast.

However there were ticket machine issues (one of 6099 or 6100 - they were both on, but my reliable source is unsure which had the issue). 
These ticket machine issues meant that there were free journies galore and inaccurate loading data.

Sitting on the stairs on x10? How is this allowed!?

(01 May 2022, 8:58 am)Andreos1 wrote People sitting on the stairs on multiple journies on the X10 yesterday.
Possibly a combination of a now hourly service, both Newcastle & Middlesbrough playing at home and the trains being off along the coast.

However there were ticket machine issues (one of 6099 or 6100 - they were both on, but my reliable source is unsure which had the issue). 
These ticket machine issues meant that there were free journies galore and inaccurate loading data.

It was genuinely busy though!

(01 May 2022, 8:58 am)Andreos1 wrote People sitting on the stairs on multiple journies on the X10 yesterday.
Possibly a combination of a now hourly service, both Newcastle & Middlesbrough playing at home and the trains being off along the coast.

However there were ticket machine issues (one of 6099 or 6100 - they were both on, but my reliable source is unsure which had the issue). 
These ticket machine issues meant that there were free journies galore and inaccurate loading data.

Whilst it probably gets away with being hourly on a weekday at the moment, it could do with being half-hourly on a Saturday.

(01 May 2022, 12:29 pm)idiot wrote Sitting on the stairs on x10? How is this allowed!?

It's not, but the bus is very unlikely to have been over capacity. It's more likely that customers have opted to ignore the safety advice, and there's very little a driver can do to police that on a limited stop service, which is predominantly running on the A19.

(01 May 2022, 3:03 pm)Adrian wrote It's not, but the bus is very unlikely to have been over capacity. It's more likely that customers have opted to ignore the safety advice, and there's very little a driver can do to police that on a limited stop service, which is predominantly running on the A19.

There's plenty of laybys along the A19, or sliproads for that matter.  Pretty sure it is the driver's responsibility to ensure safety measures such as not sitting on stairs are followed.  I'd say allowing passengers to sit on stairs while travelling at high speeds breaches the PSV Regs "A driver and a conductor shall take all reasonable precautions to ensure the safety of passengers who are on, or who are entering or leaving, the vehicle".  Also, seems highly unlikely many passengers would opt to sit on uncushioned stairs for an hour and a half if seats were available.

(01 May 2022, 12:29 pm)idiot wrote Sitting on the stairs on x10? How is this allowed!?

It’s pretty common on weekends on most routes these days, drivers rarely enforce it, not worth the hassle or abuse they’d get vs the minor chance of anyone checking up on them/an accident. 

Matchday 21s are exactly the same, running in pairs and still choked up yesterday (which is positive and showing bus travel is going the same route as rail, no more commuter peak but weekend and leisure peaks)

(01 May 2022, 10:24 pm)Ambassador wrote Matchday 21s are exactly the same, running in pairs and still choked up yesterday (which is positive and showing bus travel is going the same route as rail, no more commuter peak but weekend and leisure peaks)

Hopefully the 21 will be back to every 7 minutes soon.