(11 Dec 2024, 5:59 pm)Storx wrote Agreed to be honest, mind I don't think it should be a flat rate though as stuff like Berwick to Newcastle should be £3.

I'd much rather see further discounts for reasonable fares ie. Blyth to Cramlington or whatever. All the fares in Manchester and West Yorkshire being fair for £2 imo.

Yeah, I don't think long distance routes should be at such a discount. It's more the people going from Seaham to Sunderland or somewhere else quite short distance that are going to be paying 50p more than the equivalent route in those other two mayoral areas.

(11 Dec 2024, 5:42 pm)deanmachine wrote Personally, I don't think it's good enough, especially with Manchester and West Yorkshire keeping the £2 gap, why should we be disadvantaged?

There's a lot more work needs doing up here compared to Manchester and West Yorkshire. If they'd kept it at £2 here, that's a lot of other priorities that disappear very quickly because they can't afford them. Personally I think this is the right move.

(11 Dec 2024, 4:48 pm)Chris 1 wrote Ah of course, forgot about that!

---

Snap.  I haven't read the detail so not sure where the funding is coming from?  If BSIP, I don't think it's money well spent.

£6million of the funding is coming from the Taxpayer funded BSIP.

Unsure on the balance.

(11 Dec 2024, 7:50 pm)deanmachine wrote Yeah, I don't think long distance routes should be at such a discount. It's more the people going from Seaham to Sunderland or somewhere else quite short distance that are going to be paying 50p more than the equivalent route in those other two mayoral areas.

Yeah agreed, personally I wish we'd just expand the Metro Zones A - E (new zone) to the whole region and charge £2 for one zone, plus 30p for extra zone after that.



Like imo if they were the zones, as it's probably where it would be everything would be fair.

Like:
Ashington to Newcastle: £2.90
Consett to Newcastle: £2.90
Sunderland / South Shields to Newcastle: £2.60
Seaham to Sunderland: £2.30
Cramlington to Newcastle: £2.60
Berwick to Newcastle: £3.20
Washington to Newcastle: £2.60

They're all fair prices imo and reasonable fares as the size of region would make it unreasomable to be £2 throughout.

(11 Dec 2024, 1:19 pm)Chris 1 wrote Wasn't sure where to put this, but confirmation Kim is subsidising the £3 cap next year so it's £2.50:

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor...d-30561260

You couldn't make it up. Labour Govt hiking it by £1 then a Labour Mayor celebrating that us lucky people are getting half of it back...

(11 Dec 2024, 5:59 pm)Storx wrote Agreed to be honest, mind I don't think it should be a flat rate though as stuff like Berwick to Newcastle should be £3.

I'd much rather see further discounts for reasonable fares ie. Blyth to Cramlington or whatever. All the fares in Manchester and West Yorkshire being fair for £2 imo.

Why? Per your example, I'd surprised if anyone used the service for the full route Berwick to Newcastle anyway. It'd take you most of the day to travel there and back. 

In an ideal world, the train services would be included in the multi-modal tickets, as that's a more appropriate choice for the journey.

Something like the Tyne Tees X10 is a bit different, but there's no reason the cap shouldn't still apply there. The whole point is to try and encourage modal shift. The commercial fare regime was that good at that, that the service has been decimated in recent times...

One capped fare is simple.

(11 Dec 2024, 9:57 pm)Adrian wrote Why? Per your example, I'd surprised if anyone used the service for the full route Berwick to Newcastle anyway. It'd take you most of the day to travel there and back. 

In an ideal world, the train services would be included in the multi-modal tickets, as that's a more appropriate choice for the journey.

Something like the Tyne Tees X10 is a bit different, but there's no reason the cap shouldn't still apply there. The whole point is to try and encourage modal shift. The commercial fare regime was that good at that, that the service has been decimated in recent times...

One capped fare is simple.

Just personally think we need to come up with one zonal system and apply in consistently across everything. The Metro zones, which are now part of Northumberland Line being arguably the best to impliment since it already exists on two types of transport and the existing Network One zones aren't a million miles away from it either.

Be much easier to market fares like

1 Zone Single Ticket: £2.00 | Day Ticket: £3.60 | Weekly Ticket: £18.00 | Monthly Ticket: £54.00
2 Zone Single Ticket: £2.30 | Day Ticket: £4.20 | Weekly Ticket: £21.00 | Monthly Ticket: £63.00
...

Use your ticket on the Bus / Metro / Ferry and Rail*

Obviously some people may get increased fares slightly but most will reduce. It's better than having at least 8 different zonal systems like now (TNE / GNE / Arriva / Stagecoach / Network One / Metro / Metro Student / Smart Zones). Confusing and messy imo and no doubt there's more I've forgot about.

(11 Dec 2024, 5:42 pm)deanmachine wrote Personally, I don't think it's good enough, especially with Manchester and West Yorkshire keeping the £2 gap, why should we be disadvantaged?

What West Yorkshire and Manchester don't tell you is things they can't do with service provision, infrastructure etc because they are using the money on cheap fares. 

Discount tickets come at a price.

(12 Dec 2024, 4:56 am)DeltaMan wrote What West Yorkshire and Manchester don't tell you is things they can't do with service provision, infrastructure etc because they are using the money on cheap fares. 

Discount tickets come at a price.

I really doubt that Manchester has a worse network than us, I know West Yorkshire doesn't since it doesn't have any form of tram/metro system so the buses have to do everything.

(11 Dec 2024, 10:59 pm)Storx wrote Just personally think we need to come up with one zonal system and apply in consistently across everything. The Metro zones, which are now part of Northumberland Line being arguably the best to impliment since it already exists on two types of transport and the existing Network One zones aren't a million miles away from it either.

Be much easier to market fares like

1 Zone Single Ticket: £2.00 | Day Ticket: £3.60 | Weekly Ticket: £18.00 | Monthly Ticket: £54.00
2 Zone Single Ticket: £2.30 | Day Ticket: £4.20 | Weekly Ticket: £21.00 | Monthly Ticket: £63.00
...

Use your ticket on the Bus / Metro / Ferry and Rail*

Obviously some people may get increased fares slightly but most will reduce. It's better than having at least 8 different zonal systems like now (TNE / GNE / Arriva / Stagecoach / Network One / Metro / Metro Student / Smart Zones). Confusing and messy imo and no doubt there's more I've forgot about.

Metro zones are designed to maximise Metro revenue (hence the small central zone) and wouldn't necessarily work for bus where journey patterns are different.

Just let GNE try to charge me 2.50 from the pelaw penthouse to heworth metro!!! Even 1.90 a disgrace!

(12 Dec 2024, 4:48 pm)busmanT wrote Metro zones are designed to maximise Metro revenue (hence the small central zone) and wouldn't necessarily work for bus where journey patterns are different.

To be fair they'd work quite well really. Everything is pretty much geared towards Newcastle anyway especially North of Tyne and Gateshead / Derwentside anyway since you pretty much can't cross the water anywhere bar some infrequent services. 

When you get down Durham area because of where Durham is the zones are going to start bending around Durham anyway and down Bishop area the Tees Valley border comes in anyway. Plus we're subsidising a £4 ticket there anyway regardless currently.

Right now the system is just flawed because someone from West Auckland can get a return to Newcastle for £5 but someone from the estates in Washington is forking out £6 because they need to change. That's broken imo.

(12 Dec 2024, 4:56 am)DeltaMan wrote What West Yorkshire and Manchester don't tell you is things they can't do with service provision, infrastructure etc because they are using the money on cheap fares. 

Discount tickets come at a price.

Do you have an example of something they're unable to deliver as a result?

We haven't exactly been great on that either. People losing vital links, whilst BSIP money is spaffed on successful services like the 1 and 21.

(12 Dec 2024, 4:48 pm)busmanT wrote Metro zones are designed to maximise Metro revenue (hence the small central zone) and wouldn't necessarily work for bus where journey patterns are different.

Yes, and I'd say it's easier to implement with rail, because your network doesn't change. It's a fixed route over where the track is.

Trying to implement zonal systems for buses throws up all sorts of anomalies. I recall the Network One system having dozens of zones, before it was simplified around the mid 00s, and most didn't understand it.

(13 Dec 2024, 1:18 am)Adrian wrote Yes, and I'd say it's easier to implement with rail, because your network doesn't change. It's a fixed route over where the track is.

Trying to implement zonal systems for buses throws up all sorts of anomalies. I recall the Network One system having dozens of zones, before it was simplified around the mid 00s, and most didn't understand it.

See personally I don't think it would be that difficult to implement as you could easily have something like these blue zones:


It just works imo because of how our region is laid out and there's not ever really going to be any anomolies unless there's a sudden urge for services around Newcastle or a new Consett to Crook express. The network is very North/South pretty much across the whole region bar to the sides of Newcastle where it becomes very East/West.

It's also basically the current Network One zones, as it is, anyway so it's not like it's completely reinventing the wheel.

haha
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/revisions-...nuary-2025

(13 Dec 2024, 6:52 pm)omnicity4659 wrote haha
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/revisions-...nuary-2025

The quickest I've ever seen them react to something. It's a shame it's only when there's an opportunity to fleece the travelling public!

Some of those new fares are bonkers. If they're struggling to get folk on board now, why are they suddenly going to want to at a premium.

(13 Dec 2024, 6:52 pm)omnicity4659 wrote haha
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/revisions-...nuary-2025

Had a feeling prices would go up, expecting Stagecoach and Arriva to follow and announce there's soon.

(13 Dec 2024, 6:52 pm)omnicity4659 wrote haha
https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/revisions-...nuary-2025

Quick off the mark there mind aren't they!

(13 Dec 2024, 7:13 pm)Adrian wrote The quickest I've ever seen them react to something. It's a shame it's only when there's an opportunity to fleece the travelling public!

Some of those new fares are bonkers. If they're struggling to get folk on board now, why are they suddenly going to want to at a premium.

I'm sure that all the operators have been working behind the scenes for many weeks deciding on their new fares.

Pre the £2 cap starting in January 2023, most GNE fares were over £2 (largely £2.30) so, with inflation, £2.50 doesn't seem a bad price from January 2025. 

Many passengers will still be able to save with the various TNE tickets.

(13 Dec 2024, 10:37 pm)busmanT wrote I'm sure that all the operators have been working behind the scenes for many weeks deciding on their new fares.

Pre the £2 cap starting in January 2023, most GNE fares were over £2 (largely £2.30) so, with inflation, £2.50 doesn't seem a bad price from January 2025. 

Many passengers will still be able to save with the various TNE tickets.

McGuiness only announced the £2.50 fare cap a few days ago.

They must have been very efficient to do all the sums, their preparation behind the scenes and just happen to hit on the same fare as McGuiness AND be able to do the press release so quickly!

If only they were as efficient elsewhere...

(13 Dec 2024, 10:37 pm)busmanT wrote I'm sure that all the operators have been working behind the scenes for many weeks deciding on their new fares.

Pre the £2 cap starting in January 2023, most GNE fares were over £2 (largely £2.30) so, with inflation, £2.50 doesn't seem a bad price from January 2025. 

Many passengers will still be able to save with the various TNE tickets.

They should have continued to review their fares every so often, but post them stating that the Government funded fare cap still applies to single fares.

Go North East have made a decision not to do that, instead opting to use the Government funded cap in some bid to justify hiking every other fare, when they've posted news on their website. They're literally doing just that with this latest announcement.

The price in January 2023 was £2, so the increase to the customer is is 25%. That's way above inflation for the same period.

(13 Dec 2024, 10:42 pm)Andreos1 wrote McGuiness only announced the £2.50 fare cap a few days ago.

They must have been very efficient to do all the sums, their preparation behind the scenes and just happen to hit on the same fare as McGuiness AND be able to do the press release so quickly!

If only they were as efficient elsewhere...

Great messaging for January. We'll hike your fares and cut your services for good measure, but oh, don't forget to get your bum on board.

2.50 fare hikes will undoubtedly get much of the attention, but there's some pretty shocking hikes in there. £6.10 for an 18-25 day ticket is insane, it's pence off the adult equivalent, unless you use the X10 (I'd suggest most don't!)

Gateshead and Sunderland respective tickets at £5.90, which again is 10p from the TNE ticket, giving you flexibility of other operators and the Metro.

I'd be very surprised if this lot do any market research into fares, other than asking a mate across the office if it looks OK.

(13 Dec 2024, 9:13 am)Storx wrote See personally I don't think it would be that difficult to implement as you could easily have something like these blue zones:


It just works imo because of how our region is laid out and there's not ever really going to be any anomolies unless there's a sudden urge for services around Newcastle or a new Consett to Crook express. The network is very North/South pretty much across the whole region bar to the sides of Newcastle where it becomes very East/West.

It's also basically the current Network One zones, as it is, anyway so it's not like it's completely reinventing the wheel.

With that system it would cost more to make the short journey from Durham to Bowburn or Spenny than the longer one to Seaham. All existing routes.

(14 Dec 2024, 12:39 am)BusLoverMum wrote With that system it would cost more to make the short journey from Durham to Bowburn or Spenny than the longer one to Seaham. All existing routes.

Yeah no arguments there's always going to be few odd bods but to be fair those already exist ie you can a return from Chester Le Street to West Auckland cheaper than a return from Birtley as of the end of the month.

(13 Dec 2024, 10:42 pm)Andreos1 wrote McGuiness only announced the £2.50 fare cap a few days ago.

They must have been very efficient to do all the sums, their preparation behind the scenes and just happen to hit on the same fare as McGuiness AND be able to do the press release so quickly!

If only they were as efficient elsewhere...

Heaven forbid the operators and mayor working together.

Or heaven forbid they'd already decided on the fares then quickly changed the singles and returns bit to say £2.50/£5 instead of £3/£6.

(14 Dec 2024, 7:30 am)DeltaMan wrote Heaven forbid the operators and mayor working together.

It's hardly working together, is it? It's a fare cap, i.e. the maximum you'll pay, not a flat fare.

This smacks of blatant profiteering. Nothing else.

(14 Dec 2024, 7:30 am)DeltaMan wrote Heaven forbid the operators and mayor working together.

We've established through the recently published accounts that this lot are laughing all the way to the bank while continuing to enjoy a level of taxpayer subsidy not seen in the industry since it was regulated. I'll assume this is just you being obtuse.

(14 Dec 2024, 11:21 am)Adrian wrote It's hardly working together, is it? It's a fare cap, i.e. the maximum you'll pay, not a flat fare.

This smacks of blatant profiteering. Nothing else.

It's not a flat fare though. They've said themselves that some fares will be £2.30, and some fares are £2.50. it's probably just another poorly worded story.

(14 Dec 2024, 11:50 am)R852 PRG wrote We've established through the recently published accounts that this lot are laughing all the way to the bank while continuing to enjoy a level of taxpayer subsidy not seen in the industry since it was regulated. I'll assume this is just you being obtuse.

The fare cap is a subsidy for the passengers not the operator

(14 Dec 2024, 12:20 pm)DeltaMan wrote It's not a flat fare though. They've said themselves that some fares will be £2.30, and some fares are £2.50. it's probably just another poorly worded story.

It becomes a flat fare, when almost everything is hiked to it, like in this scenario.

They've not actually mentioned £2.30. Here's a screenshot of their news post:

(14 Dec 2024, 12:32 pm)DeltaMan wrote The fare cap is a subsidy for the passengers not the operator

It's nonsense to suggest that it isn't a subsidy for the operator. It benefits the operator just as much as passengers. 

If the fare cap wasn't in place and the discounted TNE tickets weren't in place, the equivalents would have spiralled out of control like the rest of their commercial tickets. That's the benefit to the customer.

The benefit to the operator, is that they're forced to sell fares that are actually attractive to customers, and it's boosted passenger numbers as a result. Aiding post-Covid recovery.