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RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 1:13 pm)Adrian wrote It becomes a flat fare, when almost everything is hiked to it, like in this scenario.

They've not actually mentioned £2.30. Here's a screenshot of their news post:




It's nonsense to suggest that it isn't a subsidy for the operator. It benefits the operator just as much as passengers. 

If the fare cap wasn't in place and the discounted TNE tickets weren't in place, the equivalents would have spiralled out of control like the rest of their commercial tickets. That's the benefit to the customer.

The benefit to the operator, is that they're forced to sell fares that are actually attractive to customers, and it's boosted passenger numbers as a result. Aiding post-Covid recovery.

It's in black and white. Some fares will be less than £2.50. it's therefore not a flat fare.

If it's a subsidy to the operator, what discount are they seeing? You can say they benefit from some supposed increase in users, but a benefit is not a subsidy and it's misleading to say that.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 12:32 pm)DeltaMan wrote The fare cap is a subsidy for the passengers not the operator

Encouraging people through the door, even when mutually beneficial to passenger and operator, is still a subsidy for the operator. It's not much different to the Eat Out to Help Out concept.

What I expect they've not accounted for is that the quality of ticketing data will have declined significantly, perhaps to the worst it will have ever been, since these fare subsidies came in. Seems the average mentality for drivers issuing single fares is that it's simple as '£2 adult, £1 child'. I've genuinely observed mentors teaching this. Vast majority of drivers are insufficiently motivated to issue tickets to the correct farestage to the extent that I'd argue farestages by and large have lost any intrinsic meaning. With such appalling data quality, if subsidy was removed without warning, they'd somehow be even more clueless as to passenger demand and travel needs.

When the free travel for under-22s was introduced in Scotland, drivers were instructed to still issue tickets to exact farestages - even for free tickets - and many drivers enforced this to the nth degree, so I don't accept any arguments this is a non-issue. I'd argue that it's even more important to maintain strength of data quality when the network is still ran at commercial risk, even when receiving support from subsidy, and this is certainly the position held by Scottish operators. What's funny is that some of those Scottish networks are actually quite strong, and Go North East's is on life support.

I dare say this will have influenced some, if not most, of these recent changes. But in this business today, it's evident that most decisions are based around working with poor resource rather than with much, if any, thought put toward any meaningful growth. Network decisions seem to be operationally-based, with minimal commercial acumen, and are overly concerned with reducing costs and creating pointless links while cutting or reducing meaningful, established links. But I can't imagine such thoughts will occur, when they're clearly too busy just fighting for their lives. Oh, and pissing around with the Santa Bus and various other gimmicks.
bazmaba
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 2:09 pm)DeltaMan wrote It's in black and white. Some fares will be less than £2.50. it's therefore not a flat fare.

If it's a subsidy to the operator, what discount are they seeing? You can say they benefit from some supposed increase in users, but a benefit is not a subsidy and it's misleading to say that.

You'd previously said "They've said themselves that some fares will be £2.30," - which is it?

A subsidy doesn't have to be a monetary discount. They're being paid a generous sum of money, and in return are able to market their fares at £2. I don't know how you can't see that as a benefit to the operator?

If the scheme was so bad and offered them nothing, they could quite easily opt out of it. There was an option right from the start to choose not to participate.
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RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 2:22 pm)R852 PRG wrote Encouraging people through the door, even when mutually beneficial to passenger and operator, is still a subsidy for the operator. It's not much different to the Eat Out to Help Out concept.

What I expect they've not accounted for is that the quality of ticketing data will have declined significantly, perhaps to the worst it will have ever been, since these fare subsidies came in. Seems the average mentality for drivers issuing single fares is that it's simple as '£2 adult, £1 child'. I've genuinely observed mentors teaching this. Vast majority of drivers are insufficiently motivated to issue tickets to the correct farestage to the extent that I'd argue farestages by and large have lost any intrinsic meaning. With such appalling data quality, if subsidy was removed without warning, they'd somehow be even more clueless as to passenger demand and travel needs.

When the free travel for under-22s was introduced in Scotland, drivers were instructed to still issue tickets to exact farestages - even for free tickets - and many drivers enforced this to the nth degree, so I don't accept any arguments this is a non-issue. I'd argue that it's even more important to maintain strength of data quality when the network is still ran at commercial risk, even when receiving support from subsidy, and this is certainly the position held by Scottish operators. What's funny is that some of those Scottish networks are actually quite strong, and Go North East's is on life support.

I dare say this will have influenced some, if not most, of these recent changes. But in this business today, it's evident that most decisions are based around working with poor resource rather than with much, if any, thought put toward any meaningful growth. Network decisions seem to be operationally-based, with minimal commercial acumen, and are overly concerned with reducing costs and creating pointless links while cutting or reducing meaningful, established links. But I can't imagine such thoughts will occur, when they're clearly too busy just fighting for their lives. Oh, and pissing around with the Santa Bus and various other gimmicks.

I don't think you understand how unrealistic it would be to select indivudual fare stages for every single passenger. It'd take you half an hour to load a full bus of people putting individual fare stages into a ticketer machine. It's much more efficient to give everyone the same ticket. If operators want to know where people are going, tap on tap off would be far more efficient.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 3:27 pm)deanmachine wrote I don't think you understand how unrealistic it would be to select indivudual fare stages for every single passenger. It'd take you half an hour to load a full bus of people putting individual fare stages into a ticketer machine. It's much more efficient to give everyone the same ticket. If operators want to know where people are going, tap on tap off would be far more efficient.

How did they do the job beforehand? With respect, while I know you do a hard job, what you're excusing is a skill issue.
bazmaba
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 3:43 pm)R852 PRG wrote How did they do the job beforehand? With respect, while I know you do a hard job, what you're excusing is a skill issue.

Before the price cap singles were nowhere near as common as they are now. For the majority of people a day/weekly/monthly ticket either bought on bus or via an app was significantly more common, and they don't require the driver to change fare stage. 

Particularly with Ticketer machines, changing fare stage between each customer can be a very time consuming process. In the North East the only operator who have done anything about this is Arriva, as Tap On Tap Off allows for the purchasing of single tickets with accurate end points without the need for the driver input. 

Issuing a bus full of 80+ people accurate £2 singles would likely delay it by around 10 minutes if they were all boarding at the same stop (for example, a busy evening trip from Eldon Square), and that's assuming you'd get some duplication of destination.
RE: Pricing
Personally I don't really see the obsession with cheap singles. Id just hike them up and replace them with cheap day and weekly tickets instead, ideally using a tap and go system. 

If someone has a weekly ticket they're much likely to use the bus more often as the singles aren't really that cheap for a frequent travelling. Your looking at £25 a week at least for someone working 5 days a week assuming they have no social life or use a car elsewhere. 

That's not particularly cheap and the days tickets of the operators have gone up and up behind the scenes aswell. 

What Germany did was the best 49 euro for unlimited travel per month. Much much better imo.
RE: Pricing
But buses still aren't completely full of people buying singles. At least half of the people I see are using bus passes or day tickets and the like and kn the rural Durham routes that's most passengers.

And I shall put my hands up now and say that I hate tap on tap off. If I remember to tap off I end up fumbling about with my bags and card, dropping things and taking much longer than necessary to get off the bus.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 4:06 pm)Storx wrote Personally I don't really see the obsession with cheap singles. Id just hike them up and replace them with cheap day and weekly tickets instead, ideally using a tap and go system. 

If someone has a weekly ticket they're much likely to use the bus more often as the singles aren't really that cheap for a frequent travelling. Your looking at £25 a week at least for someone working 5 days a week assuming they have no social life or use a car elsewhere. 

That's not particularly cheap and the days tickets of the operators have gone up and up behind the scenes aswell. 

What Germany did was the best 49 euro for unlimited travel per month. Much much better imo.

It's about making the modal shift to public transport attractive and affordable. People simply won't do it when the prices are too high, and capped (or reduced fares) aren't all of the solution, they're a good chunk of it. 

Day tickets are fine, but I'd say most use them out of necessity. When you've got a hub and spoke model like we have, most people have to change bus at some point to complete their journey. I'd say most people using Day Tickets aren't doing it to make loads of journeys, they're very likely just making a simple return trip.

Weekly/Monthly tickets are have never adopted to new ways of working, and I think on the most part, work on the basis that people still travel into a workplace 5 days a week. I think most operators tried to combat this with 'Flexi' products, but the pricing of those is complete nonsense. A Tyne & Wear Flexi 5 is £29.50, versus £30.00 if you bought 5x TNE T&W Day Tickets. I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't have something to do with the reimbursement formula for the BSIP tickets though...

The best absolute model would be to allow people to have a smart ticket, with fare capping across a day, week, month and year. Whatever you do or travel on, you can never exceed set caps. I don't think we'll get very far on that until the adults take over.
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RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 4:11 pm)BusLoverMum wrote But buses still aren't completely full of people buying singles. At least half of the people I see are using bus passes or day tickets and the like and kn the rural Durham routes that's most passengers.

And I shall put my hands up now and say that I hate tap on tap off. If I remember to tap off I end up fumbling about with my bags and card, dropping things and taking much longer than necessary to get off the bus.

I love tap on tap off, saved a decent amount using it on Arriva. It needs to be across the network so if you do decide to use a different company then you get capped at the £6 Transport North East ticket.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 4:19 pm)Adrian wrote It's about making the modal shift to public transport attractive and affordable. People simply won't do it when the prices are too high, and capped (or reduced fares) aren't all of the solution, they're a good chunk of it. 

Day tickets are fine, but I'd say most use them out of necessity. When you've got a hub and spoke model like we have, most people have to change bus at some point to complete their journey. I'd say most people using Day Tickets aren't doing it to make loads of journeys, they're very likely just making a simple return trip.

Weekly/Monthly tickets are have never adopted to new ways of working, and I think on the most part, work on the basis that people still travel into a workplace 5 days a week. I think most operators tried to combat this with 'Flexi' products, but the pricing of those is complete nonsense. A Tyne & Wear Flexi 5 is £29.50, versus £30.00 if you bought 5x TNE T&W Day Tickets. I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't have something to do with the reimbursement formula for the BSIP tickets though...

The best absolute model would be to allow people to have a smart ticket, with fare capping across a day, week, month and year. Whatever you do or travel on, you can never exceed set caps. I don't think we'll get very far on that until the adults take over.

Honestly can't disagree with that at all. It's where we need to be, it's why imo we should be focusing on selling tickets on what will be the caps will ve in the future as a stop gap which over time will only be available over the tap and go system. Obviously not ideal, but the system isn't there but we need something for frequent travellers as the fares are awfully high lately in some areas like you said.

No doubt there's big issues with subsidising anything else right now though as no doubt the government won't be paying the national level money across so the local governments will have to fund the whole scheme which obviously they're not going to be doing. The TNE tickets, which are named after something that doesn't exist now ironically, are very hidden all of a sudden after being pushed massively before these singles came in.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 7:30 am)DeltaMan wrote Heaven forbid the operators and mayor working together.

Photos or it didn't happen.

(14 Dec 2024, 11:21 am)Adrian wrote It's hardly working together, is it? It's a fare cap, i.e. the maximum you'll pay, not a flat fare.

This smacks of blatant profiteering. Nothing else. 

As I've said repeatedly, there's absolutely nothing stopping the operators doing something themselves with the fares. 

If easyjet, Ryanair et al can make money by charging low fares, I don't know why the bus industry can't. 
The idea that I'd want to travel to Gdansk, a random airfield in northern Italy or sit on a cramped aircraft to an obscure town in Slovenia is beyond comprehension. 
But the 99p fares or whatever they're offering drives demand and they make money. 
And I (and many others) decide to travel to those places. 

Quite why the bus industry needs to rely on a hand out and then still struggle shows how behind the times they really are.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
I see Transdev are starting to announce their changes to fares - and if you have bought a £2 single on their app, it will expire at the end of December and I see on the Burnley link, they are saying that most of their fares will be £3.00 too - so I think it will be the norm across most bus companies

https://www.transdevbus.co.uk/the-harrog...-new-year/

https://www.transdevbus.co.uk/the-burnle...-new-year/
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 8:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote Photos or it didn't happen.


As I've said repeatedly, there's absolutely nothing stopping the operators doing something themselves with the fares. 

If easyjet, Ryanair et al can make money by charging low fares, I don't know why the bus industry can't. 
The idea that I'd want to travel to Gdansk, a random airfield in northern Italy or sit on a cramped aircraft to an obscure town in Slovenia is beyond comprehension. 
But the 99p fares or whatever they're offering drives demand and they make money. 
And I (and many others) decide to travel to those places. 

Quite why the bus industry needs to rely on a hand out and then still struggle shows how behind the times they really are.

Not sure airlines are a good comparison mind, they're only cheap because they charge you for literally everything else.

I'm still in the mind that singles should be more expensive to force you onto cheaper longer term tickets - sadly these tickets don't exist though and if you're a frequent traveller you're being punished because Johnny who goes to the pub once a week is where all the money is...?

It'll be interesting to see how Arriva act on this mind, since their fares are substantially dearer than the new railway line.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 9:58 pm)Storx wrote It'll be interesting to see how Arriva act on this mind, since their fares are substantially dearer than the new railway line.

They aren't though are they? 

£2 (increasing to £2.50) for a single on the bus from Ashington to Newcastle, £3 on the train.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 10:26 pm)PH - BQA wrote They aren't though are they? 

£2 (increasing to £2.50) for a single on the bus from Ashington to Newcastle, £3 on the train.

£2.60 between Ashington and Newcastle, off-peak (so, after 0930). £1.70 with a railcard.

£2 between Newsham or Seaton Delaval and Newcastle, off-peak. £1.30 with a railcard.

Between Ashington and Newcastle
35 mins on the train.
45-55 mins on X20.
60-70 mins on X21/X22.

Between Newsham and Newcastle
20 mins on the train.
40 mins on X30.
45-60 mins on X10/X11.

Between Seaton Delaval and Newcastle
15 mins on the train.
40-50 mins on X7.

At peak times, I can save myself 35 minutes by getting the train from Ashington to Newcastle for 50p more than the bus, sounds fair to me.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 10:26 pm)PH - BQA wrote They aren't though are they? 

£2 (increasing to £2.50) for a single on the bus from Ashington to Newcastle, £3 on the train.

Not everyone wants singles though and I'm not Ashington either.

Ashington to Newcastle (Train / Pop / Bus)
Daily: £6* / £6.20 / £5*
Weekly: £24 / £30 / £31.50
Monthly: £92.20 / £105 / £112
Yearly: £960 / £985 / £1120

Blyth / Seaton Delaval to Newcastle (Train / Pop / Bus)
Day: £4.80* / £5 / £5*
Weekly: £19.20 / £25.50 / £31.50
Monthly: £73.80 / £94 / £112
Yearly: £768 / £864 / £1120

*Return tickets

Personally I'd say they're substantial differences. The bus doesn't win at all at Blyth or Seaton Delaval and that's ignoring the off peak fares and the numerous rail cards around altogether. Obviously I'll acknowledge some people aren't going to be paying for the weekly and monthly tickets right now asit makes no sense but still.

The Cramlington Routesaver, imo badly needs expanded across to Blyth and Seaton Valley and the Morpeth routesaver needs extended to Bedlington and Ashington if they had any sense to make them at least competitive. I assume they exist nowadays because of the trains there anyway rather than the legacy bargain bus routes since the Ashington fares got scrapped.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 9:58 pm)Storx wrote Not sure airlines are a good comparison mind, they're only cheap because they charge you for literally everything else.

I'm still in the mind that singles should be more expensive to force you onto cheaper longer term tickets - sadly these tickets don't exist though and if you're a frequent traveller you're being punished because Johnny who goes to the pub once a week is where all the money is...?

It'll be interesting to see how Arriva act on this mind, since their fares are substantially dearer than the new railway line.

A quick Google search finds that 22 percent of Easyjet profit in 2022 was made by ancillary sales. Ticket sales still form the backbone of their revenue.

High productivity, a strong cost culture and selling seats that attract the elastic customer is where they do well.

10 seats at £2.50 vs 20 seats at £2.00...
Or 40 seats at £1.50.

Stack em high, sell em cheap. Take people where they want to go and they will go. 

The traditional model used has long gone. 
People have made the modal switch because the original option wasn't reliable, didn't take them where they wanted to go when they wanted to go and cost a fortune. 
Cheaper and quicker options won over.

That applies to road, rail and air.

It's why Megabus did so well over National Express and why Flixbus and Ember are making moves. 

Ditto your BA vs Easyjet or Ryanair. 

Or your Lumo vs LNER.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 11:52 pm)Andreos1 wrote A quick Google search finds that 22 percent of Easyjet profit in 2022 was made by ancillary sales. Ticket sales still form the backbone of their revenue.

High productivity, a strong cost culture and selling seats that attract the elastic customer is where they do well.

10 seats at £2.50 vs 20 seats at £2.00...
Or 40 seats at £1.50.

Stack em high, sell em cheap. Take people where they want to go and they will go. 

The traditional model used has long gone. 
People have made the modal switch because the original option wasn't reliable, didn't take them where they wanted to go when they wanted to go and cost a fortune. 
Cheaper and quicker options won over.

That applies to road, rail and air.

It's why Megabus did so well over National Express and why Flixbus and Ember are making moves. 

Ditto your BA vs Easyjet or Ryanair. 

Or your Lumo vs LNER.

To be fair Easyjet really aren't that cheap nowadays, especially last minute. British Airways are quite often just as competitive, especially if you want things like a case.

It's more dynamic pricing though that makes the money though, not sure you could really apply it to public buses though. I'm personally not a big fan of it either on public services, the LNER trials lately are horrific with fares through the roof.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 10:39 pm)omnicity4659 wrote £2.60 between Ashington and Newcastle, off-peak (so, after 0930). £1.70 with a railcard.

£2 between Newsham or Seaton Delaval and Newcastle, off-peak. £1.30 with a railcard.

Between Ashington and Newcastle
35 mins on the train.
45-55 mins on X20.
60-70 mins on X21/X22.

Between Newsham and Newcastle
20 mins on the train.
40 mins on X30.
45-60 mins on X10/X11.

Between Seaton Delaval and Newcastle
15 mins on the train.
40-50 mins on X7.

At peak times, I can save myself 35 minutes by getting the train from Ashington to Newcastle for 50p more than the bus, sounds fair to me.

So here's the thing then, those comparisons are using a mixture of peak and non-peak timings and fares, and you're including railcard fares which a significant proportion of the working population don't have access to. 

The timings you have listed also assume you literally live at the station, which the vast majority of people don't. I'd propose that the majority of the people using a bus do live within a 5 minute walk of a stop (on the routes you've chosen). 

You say that at peak times you can save 35 minutes using the train over the bus from Ashington to Newcastle, yet the X20 is only 20 minutes longer. 

Obviously the post I had replied to was purely on the bus fares being significantly dearer, which they quite literally aren't for Ashington to Newcastle if you're comparing apples to apples (single to single). Of course if you're living within touching distance of a station then the train is more attractive, but most people don't given the locations of the stations. For those that don't, they still need to get to a station, which is either time, an additional cost, or both.
RE: Pricing
(14 Dec 2024, 11:12 pm)Storx wrote Not everyone wants singles though and I'm not Ashington either.

Ashington to Newcastle (Train / Pop / Bus)
Daily: £6* / £6.20 / £5*
Weekly: £24 / £30 / £31.50
Monthly: £92.20 / £105 / £112
Yearly: £960 / £985 / £1120

Blyth / Seaton Delaval to Newcastle (Train / Pop / Bus)
Day: £4.80* / £5 / £5*
Weekly: £19.20 / £25.50 / £31.50
Monthly: £73.80 / £94 / £112
Yearly: £768 / £864 / £1120

*Return tickets

Personally I'd say they're substantial differences. The bus doesn't win at all at Blyth or Seaton Delaval and that's ignoring the off peak fares and the numerous rail cards around altogether. Obviously I'll acknowledge some people aren't going to be paying for the weekly and monthly tickets right now asit makes no sense but still.

The Cramlington Routesaver, imo badly needs expanded across to Blyth and Seaton Valley and the Morpeth routesaver needs extended to Bedlington and Ashington if they had any sense to make them at least competitive. I assume they exist nowadays because of the trains there anyway rather than the legacy bargain bus routes since the Ashington fares got scrapped.

All I'll say to those is that generally people are buying day/weekly/monthly tickets out of them being cheaper than 2x singles, which is no longer the case. 

I would imagine that a decent percentage of commuters using this line to get into Newcastle will be on flexible working arrangements/4 day work weeks, or in other words won't be commuting 5 days per week. If we say that they're on a 4 day work week, and they're in the office for all 4 of those days, then it looks something like this on the bus for those from Ashington/Blyth/Delaval to Newcastle:

Daily - £5
Weekly - £20
4-weekly - £80
'Annual' - £960

For the annual cost I've done it over 48 weeks, as most people will have 4 weeks holiday across the year where they don't need to commute. 

Those costs are either cheaper than the train or equal to it (for the annual cost) for Ashington to Newcastle. For Blyth/Delaval, the daily and weekly costs are not a huge difference at all, only when you get into buying an annual ticket do you see a significant saving.
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 12:15 am)Storx wrote  
To be fair Easyjet really aren't that cheap nowadays, especially last minute. British Airways are quite often just as competitive, especially if you want things like a case.
 

It's more dynamic pricing though that makes the money though, not sure you could really apply it to public buses though. I'm personally not a big fan of it either on public services, the LNER trials lately are horrific with fares through the roof.

And BA adapted their model because they were seeing passengers move to the cheaper airlines. 

It's pretty obvious things like the upselling and dynamic pricing would be a total step change for bus operators and I'm unsure if it would ever work. 

However it is proven that lower fares can be attractive when growing passenger levels. Particularly for those who are elastic and have an option. 

The rhetoric that we have seen repeatedly from operators pushing for more expensive car parking and by virtue the fares look more attractive hasn't worked.
Subsidising fares via the Taxpayer isn't a sustainable, long term option. 

What alternatives are there?
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 12:17 pm)Andreos1 wrote And BA adapted their model because they were seeing passengers move to the cheaper airlines. 

It's pretty obvious things like the upselling and dynamic pricing would be a total step change for bus operators and I'm unsure if it would ever work. 

However it is proven that lower fares can be attractive when growing passenger levels. Particularly for those who are elastic and have an option. 

The rhetoric that we have seen repeatedly from operators pushing for more expensive car parking and by virtue the fares look more attractive hasn't worked.
Subsidising fares via the Taxpayer isn't a sustainable, long term option. 

What alternatives are there?

Personally I'd rather go down the get arid of the operator problem instead and acknowledge buses won't be profitable.

I don't think fares are the main problem anyway personally, it's the fact the buses don't go where people want, are too infrequent, run the same route as a car so have no time benefits and if you live in certain areas don't bother turning up at all.

The fares is all just a sticking plaster imo to hide the real problems and if we spend some of the millions we spend upgrading roads which half the time do absolutely nothing when a North East council is involved on bus improvements then you wouldn't need them anyway.

and by bus improvements I don't mean bus stations in the place no-one wants to go to. I'm struggling to think of 1p of the BSIP being spent on some infrastructure that's actually useful, so far, which actually 'improves' buses as a whole.
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 12:43 pm)Storx wrote Personally I'd rather go down the get arid of the operator problem instead and acknowledge buses won't be profitable.

I don't think fares are the main problem anyway personally, it's the fact the buses don't go where people want, are too infrequent, run the same route as a car so have no time benefits and if you live in certain areas don't bother turning up at all.

The fares is all just a sticking plaster imo to hide the real problems and if we spend some of the millions we spend upgrading roads which half the time do absolutely nothing when a North East council is involved on bus improvements then you wouldn't need them anyway.

and by bus improvements I don't mean bus stations in the place no-one wants to go to. I'm struggling to think of 1p of the BSIP being spent on some infrastructure that's actually useful, so far, which actually 'improves' buses as a whole.

The network is a huge issue and does need looking at. As part of the bigger picture. 

I agree that the £2/£2.50 fares are a sticking plaster, but regardless of what is done with the network, fares also need to looked at.

A network which suits the modern traveller will only be sustainable (note I didn't mention profit) if the fares are affordable and vfm.

At the moment, we've got the opposite. And it's not working.

Look at both and it might just work.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 12:51 pm)Andreos1 wrote The network is a huge issue and does need looking at. As part of the bigger picture. 

I agree that the £2/£2.50 fares are a sticking plaster, but regardless of what is done with the network, fares also need to looked at.

A network which suits the modern traveller will only be sustainable (note I didn't mention profit) if the fares are affordable and vfm.

At the moment, we've got the opposite. And it's not working.

Look at both and it might just work.

Aye definitely like personally I think tap in tap off should be top priority, if you get that working with some decent weekly and monthly caps then the price of a single becomes pretty irrelevant. Deep down in a way, I'd rather do what the tube does and punish people using the bus once a month to subsidise those who use it regularly.

Right now everything is broken and we're subsidising Peter to go to the pub once a week over someone using the bus to work every day.
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 12:58 pm)Storx wrote Aye definitely like personally I think tap in tap off should be top priority, if you get that working with some decent weekly and monthly caps then the price of a single becomes pretty irrelevant. Deep down in a way, I'd rather do what the tube does and punish people using the bus once a month to subsidise those who use it regularly.

Right now everything is broken and we're subsidising Peter to go to the pub once a week over someone using the bus to work every day.

If toto was to become a reality, then I'd love to know who was going to pay or contribute towards it. 
Can't see the operators willingly fund the whole thing. 

And I don't see why the taxpayer needs to provide funding (full or part) for multinational PLC's (yet again).

Regardless, it is only a small (but important) part and won't fix much.
It needs to be part of the bigger fix.

I'd hope NECA were already making plans, analysing data and travel patterns using a wide range of sources. 
Wasted time and opportunity if they aren't.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 1:21 pm)Andreos1 wrote If toto was to become a reality, then I'd love to know who was going to pay or contribute towards it. 
Can't see the operators willingly fund the whole thing. 

And I don't see why the taxpayer needs to provide funding (full or part) for multinational PLC's (yet again).

Regardless, it is only a small (but important) part and won't fix much.
It needs to be part of the bigger fix.

I'd hope NECA were already making plans, analysing data and travel patterns using a wide range of sources. 
Wasted time and opportunity if they aren't.

See I wouldn't be against the tax payer paying for it in a way. If everyone is tapping in and out then it's giving the exact data that NECA needs to track who's going where which doesn't exist right now.

It's absolutely vital information, with a cut of the ticket revenue to pay for the upkeep of the system.

Right now let's be honest no-one has a clue where people want to be as I'm sure they're convinced everyone crossing the bridges is going to Newcastle which is totally not true. A few questionaires at Morrison's at Killingworth at 3pm in an afternoon or a select few businesses is never going to get the true picture.
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 1:40 pm)Storx wrote See I wouldn't be against the tax payer paying for it in a way. If everyone is tapping in and out then it's giving the exact data that NECA needs to track who's going where which doesn't exist right now.

It's absolutely vital information, with a cut of the ticket revenue to pay for the upkeep of the system.

Right now let's be honest no-one has a clue where people want to be as I'm sure they're convinced everyone crossing the bridges is going to Newcastle which is totally not true. A few questionaires at Morrison's at Killingworth at 3pm in an afternoon or a select few businesses is never going to get the true picture.

The data from buses will be passenger led and probably isn't accurate, as you say. 

However, you've got data from within the local LA's, you've got traffic patterns from the likes of the Urban Traffic and Control Facilities.
Then there's POP card info. 

I'm sure there's a lot of information can be gleaned from the Toon Travel and other Network Travel ticket sales too. 
Who buys them, what are they buying, where and when and the employers involved such as Newcastle NHS Trust. 

All of the data is just sitting there. 

Being pro-active and getting out in the community is (again) just part of it.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 11:49 am)PH - BQA wrote All I'll say to those is that generally people are buying day/weekly/monthly tickets out of them being cheaper than 2x singles, which is no longer the case. 

I would imagine that a decent percentage of commuters using this line to get into Newcastle will be on flexible working arrangements/4 day work weeks, or in other words won't be commuting 5 days per week. If we say that they're on a 4 day work week, and they're in the office for all 4 of those days, then it looks something like this on the bus for those from Ashington/Blyth/Delaval to Newcastle:

Daily - £5
Weekly - £20
4-weekly - £80
'Annual' - £960

For the annual cost I've done it over 48 weeks, as most people will have 4 weeks holiday across the year where they don't need to commute. 

Those costs are either cheaper than the train or equal to it (for the annual cost) for Ashington to Newcastle. For Blyth/Delaval, the daily and weekly costs are not a huge difference at all, only when you get into buying an annual ticket do you see a significant saving.

Sorry this slipped through, still cheaper though. Obviously that's assuming 4 day weeks though. I don't know the averages but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fair few who are more than 4 days. Doctors, university staff, shop workers, students etc.

In reality for those living near the railway line and aren't based immediately outside Haymarket there's very little reason why anyone would choose the bus over the train unless they're a bus enthusiast.

It's the same frequency, more expensive, takes longer and as it's a bus is less reliable in terms of external issues, again more talking from Bebside / Newsham and Seaton Delaval here rather than Ashington.
RE: Pricing
(15 Dec 2024, 8:25 pm)Storx wrote Sorry this slipped through, still cheaper though. Obviously that's assuming 4 day weeks though. I don't know the averages but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a fair few who are more than 4 days. Doctors, university staff, shop workers, students etc.

In reality for those living near the railway line and aren't based immediately outside Haymarket there's very little reason why anyone would choose the bus over the train unless they're a bus enthusiast.

It's the same frequency, more expensive, takes longer and as it's a bus is less reliable in terms of external issues, again more talking from Bebside / Newsham and Seaton Delaval here rather than Ashington.

Most the people I've spoken to who live on the line are going to be sticking to the bus as they need to be at the Haymarket end of town, so by the time you get to the train station, then the time getting from Central Station to where they need to be, it'll take longer than the bus.

There will still be a lot of non bus enthusiasts who still stick with the bus.