(15 Dec 2024, 9:53 pm)L469 YVK wrote Hypothetical question here!

If we lived in a world of no mandatory DDA and had the choice, what would people pick

X21 running it's "old" route via Hartford Road, using F*** JTY / M*** HPF / M*** FTY / P*** CCU

Or the train

Discuss 

Needs to go via The Coast Road and Formica though.

(15 Dec 2024, 10:22 pm)Andreos1 wrote Needs to go via The Coast Road and Formica though.

And Billy Mill International Interchange

(15 Dec 2024, 10:22 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Do these buses have wings or contain the same 'congestion busting' technology as erroneously promised by Martijn Gilbert on the back of many of the X-Line services?

If not, then I really don't see what difference it make, hypothetically or not.

What Leyland / Volvo Olympian doesn't have wings? Foot down and no p*****g about when behind the wheel of one of them!

(15 Dec 2024, 8:39 pm)MurdnunoC wrote If I lived in either Ashington or Blyth and had a daily commute using public transport into Newcastle, then that's me sold on the train, unless I was frequently using the bus to make other journeys. It's a no-brainer really!

Yeah agreed and probably will use it going to down, live near'ish one of the stations.

Arriva badly need to extend the Morpeth Route Saver to Ashington and the Cramlington Route Saver to Blyth and Seaton Valley imo to make it them competitive.

Btw for those who love a good bad allocation, I noticed even Northern are up at it and there's already been a Class 156 venturing on it today (supposed to be full Class 158 allocation with USB's).

(15 Dec 2024, 11:04 pm)Storx wrote Yeah agreed and probably will use it going to down, live near'ish one of the stations.

Arriva badly need to extend the Morpeth Route Saver to Ashington and the Cramlington Route Saver to Blyth and Seaton Valley imo to make it them competitive.

Btw for those who love a good bad allocation, I noticed even Northern are up at it and there's already been a Class 156 venturing on it today (supposed to be full Class 158 allocation with USB's).

156's have USB's.
If not all, then a big proportion of them.

(15 Dec 2024, 6:42 pm)L469 YVK wrote See.....I'm hearing opposite. We've just got a new apprentice who lives in Ashington, and lives a good 15 minute walk away from the station so will still be using the X21.

Arriva must share the same view if they've decided to restore the 20 minute frequency on the X21/X22. If anything.....Arriva would be better going from doubles to singles rather than reducing frequency if demand dropped.

Had a walk through Gosforth this morning and paid some attention to the X21/22 loadings on the ones which passed me headed into Newcastle. 

7562 on the 0621 X21 looked to have a healthy load, from what I could see I'd assume it was carrying at least 50. 
1575 on the 0704 X22 had a full seated load when it passed me on approach to Regent Centre. 
7550 on the 0651 X21 was definitely quieter than 7562, but I'd still say had around 30 on it after leaving Regent Centre. 
1513 on the 0729 X22 again had a full seated load when it passed me on Gosforth High Street. 
7575 on the 0749 X22 was pretty healthy, downstairs looked near enough full on approach to Blue House and from what I could see there was a handful upstairs too. 
7554 on the 0731 X21 looked to be similar to 7550 when I saw it on Gosforth High Street. 
1404 on the 0809 X22 looked to have around 20 on when getting to Regent Centre.

7551 on the 0831 X20 looked to be very healthy on its approach to Regent Centre too. 

Wasn't paying attention when either the 0731 X20 or 0711 X21 passed me. Someone I know who regularly uses the 0639 X22 said it was a touch quieter than usual, but still busy. 

Obviously all of these sightings were after Cramlington, where all of these services will have dropped off a fair few. A few were also after Regent Centre, which is obviously another pretty popular stop for NHS workers in particular. 

Realistically the X21 could be impacted further by Bedlington Station opening, but the only station which you'd think could impact the X22 is now open, and on working day 1 there doesn't appear to have been any devastating impact to it.

(15 Dec 2024, 11:19 pm)Andreos1 wrote 156's have USB's.
If not all, then a big proportion of them.

Aye it was more they're meant to be Class 158's because of their speed more than the USB's. Don't believe all the Class 158's have them though but happy to be corrected.

(16 Dec 2024, 10:35 am)Storx wrote Aye it was more they're meant to be Class 158's because of their speed more than the USB's. Don't believe all the Class 158's have them though but happy to be corrected.

It looks like the 156s appeared on there after 158860/158843 got taken off at Newcastle just after 1pm. 

I did that service up to Ashington and back, and they were looking at the leading unit before it even left Newcastle. It apparently didn't power on the way back to Newcastle, so an engineer was overheard saying, but it sounded like it was? 

Quick solution to turn around with no fuss, but I wonder how much of that was to not have something go belly up on day one.

(16 Dec 2024, 10:45 am)Adrian wrote It looks like the 156s appeared on there after 158860/158843 got taken off at Newcastle just after 1pm. 

I did that service up to Ashington and back, and they were looking at the leading unit before it even left Newcastle. It apparently didn't power on the way back to Newcastle, so an engineer was overheard saying, but it sounded like it was? 

Quick solution to turn around with no fuss, but I wonder how much of that was to not have something go belly up on day one.

That would make sense, was wondering why it came on.

Mind must say I'd be a miffed if I was after one of the Sunderland or Hexham trains where supposedly they don't have any trains to double them up and there's suddenly a 4 car train appearing from nowhere...

Talking about the line today, seen it all appears to be running fine as there was loads of fears that it was going to be disaster because of tight timings etc. There doesn't appear to be any bother with the ECML merge, so far at least, since todays the first real test as yesterday all the trains had 15 minute+ layovers.

(16 Dec 2024, 10:53 am)Storx wrote That would make sense, was wondering why it came on.

Mind must say I'd be a miffed if I was after one of the Sunderland or Hexham trains where supposedly they don't have any trains to double them up and there's suddenly a 4 car train appearing from nowhere...

Talking about the line today, seen it all appears to be running fine as there was loads of fears that it was going to be disaster because of tight timings etc. There doesn't appear to be any bother with the ECML merge, so far at least, since todays the first real test as yesterday all the trains had 15 minute+ layovers.

I'd say it was good planning tbh. Something we're often quick to criticise operators for not doing.

They knew it'd be busy on the first day, as not only would you have a lot of locals taking an interest, but you'd also have spotters coming from all over to be one of the first to ride the service/line and take photos/video.

It'd have left dozens of people behind if it was running as a 2 car set. Even the 4 car set I was on out of Ashington, that left with standees.

(16 Dec 2024, 11:00 am)Adrian wrote I'd say it was good planning tbh. Something we're often quick to criticise operators for not doing.

They knew it'd be busy on the first day, as not only would you have a lot of locals taking an interest, but you'd also have spotters coming from all over to be one of the first to ride the service/line and take photos/video.

It'd have left dozens of people behind if it was running as a 2 car set. Even the 4 car set I was on out of Ashington, that left with standees.

The Hartlepool to NCL train on Sat lunchtime was a 2 carriage unit . It was ridiculously rammed. Who decides whether a service should be 2 or 4 units? Is it Northern staff based in the NE , or is it staff based in York/ Leeds or the NW?

(16 Dec 2024, 11:00 am)Adrian wrote I'd say it was good planning tbh. Something we're often quick to criticise operators for not doing.

They knew it'd be busy on the first day, as not only would you have a lot of locals taking an interest, but you'd also have spotters coming from all over to be one of the first to ride the service/line and take photos/video.

It'd have left dozens of people behind if it was running as a 2 car set. Even the 4 car set I was on out of Ashington, that left with standees.

Yeah can't disagree to be honest. Obviously it wouldn't be an issue if there was enough rolling stock in the North East in the first place but that's another discussion altogether. 

I personally still think it was a big mistake withdrawing all the Pacers. 

I know they were terrible vehicles but for a match day or what not surely it's better to have an awful vehicle bolted onto a more modern vehicle than being left on the platform. It's not as if there was enough of them to act as Christmas trees for the others to keep them going.

(16 Dec 2024, 10:53 am)Storx wrote There doesn't appear to be any bother with the ECML merge, so far at least, since todays the first real test as yesterday all the trains had 15 minute+ layovers.

Aged well...

2T35 30+ mins late, and 2T36 heavily delayed on the way back to Newcastle. 

2T37 11 mins late and counting. 

2T34 stuck on its way into Newcastle too.

Northern's website saying the 1511 (2T41) and 1600 (2T42) trips now cancelled as a result.

Edited: 2T36 information.

Talking to a couple of people who got the New train to work today, they said they'll be going back to the bus from tomorrow. The time getting to the station instead of getting the bus from their doorstep, and the walk getting from Central Station to Haymarket just didn't save time. One said they prefer just getting door to door and not having to walk, they just put Netflix on their mobile and relax from door to work on the bus.

I think the train will do well, but I don't think it'll hit Arriva too much. They'll likely have different passengers. But door to door and no changes may be a psychological reason for a lot of bus users to stick with it.

(16 Dec 2024, 6:10 pm)Shrek wrote Talking to a couple of people who got the New train to work today, they said they'll be going back to the bus from tomorrow. The time getting to the station instead of getting the bus from their doorstep, and the walk getting from Central Station to Haymarket just didn't save time. One said they prefer just getting door to door and not having to walk, they just put Netflix on their mobile and relax from door to work on the bus.

I think the train will do well, but I don't think it'll hit Arriva too much. They'll likely have different passengers. But door to door and no changes may be a psychological reason for a lot of bus users to stick with it.

Unless the travel pattern is more convenient, I don't think bus users will switch to the train. The biggest targets are:

- New builds
- Reducing car use and attracting car drivers who'd not dream of using a bus

Obviously any users who live right on the doorstep of a station (within a 10 minute walk) could be tempted.

Whilst Arriva are by no means perfect and have scope to improve, they've kept a relatively stable network in place and made some smart changes too even with a bit BSIP money. Unlike a certain two companies who got commercial goldmines propped up using the money!

The only changes I can see Arriva doing are maybe some services going from double to single deck....at least in the interim.

The bottom line is that there's been a lot of developments especially around the Blyth & Newsham areas. The bus & road networks are already at full capacity, not forgetting the developments around Cramlington too which also has a positive impact on the X21/X22.

(16 Dec 2024, 7:34 pm)L469 YVK wrote Unless the travel pattern is more convenient, I don't think bus users will switch to the train. The biggest targets are:

- New builds
- Reducing car use and attracting car drivers who'd not dream of using a bus

Obviously any users who live right on the doorstep of a station (within a 10 minute walk) could be tempted.

Whilst Arriva are by no means perfect and have scope to improve, they've kept a relatively stable network in place and made some smart changes too even with a bit BSIP money. Unlike a certain two companies who got commercial goldmines propped up using the money!

The only changes I can see Arriva doing are maybe some services going from double to single deck....at least in the interim.

The bottom line is that there's been a lot of developments especially around the Blyth & Newsham areas. The bus & road networks are already at full capacity, not forgetting the developments around Cramlington too which also has a positive impact on the X21/X22.

Not sure I agree there mind, Ashington was always going to be more 50/50 due the fact the routes are pretty direct and the train station is at the North side of the town so it means doubling back. There always should've been a station at North Seaton imo, even known they would've been close to Ashington but it would've eliminated the doubling back.

It's Newsham (X8), Bebside (X9) and Bedlington Station (X21) which were always going to be the stations that have the bigger hits mainly because the X8 and X9 take 2 weeks and Bedlington Station is extremely central to pretty much a core of the X21 passengers.

If there's only 35 PAX on the X21 now and the train takes another 10 away as it's not exactly unrealistic in the Bedlington Station area then it's looking a bit sick imo.

Cancelling the 17:20 X22 out of Newcastle tonight isn't going to help things either mind.

(16 Dec 2024, 8:16 pm)Storx wrote If there's only 35 PAX on the X21 now and the train takes another 10 away as it's not exactly unrealistic in the Bedlington Station area then it's looking a bit sick imo.

Cancelling the 17:20 X22 out of Newcastle tonight isn't going to help things either mind.

I'm assuming the 35 passengers is in reference to my earlier post of sightings this morning. I'd point out (yet again...) that the X21 tends to dump significant amounts at both Cramlington Industrial Estate and Regent Centre, and loadings of 30+ into town from Gosforth are still pretty healthy when you take that into account. 

As it happens I was on 7533 into town prior to it working the 1700 X22, and it took in about 25 (though some of those were off through Gosforth), and had a hefty queue waiting for it. I was on 7530 on the way back on the 1745, and again there was a good load. 

As we have seen today, a train can be cancelled just as easily as a bus can be...

---

(16 Dec 2024, 6:10 pm)Shrek wrote I think the train will do well, but I don't think it'll hit Arriva too much. They'll likely have different passengers. But door to door and no changes may be a psychological reason for a lot of bus users to stick with it.

Agreed, the train makes complete sense for those living within a short walk of a station, for anyone connecting onto another service at Newcastle, or for people working at the southern end of the city centre. However, for many, the stations aren't in convenient locations, and Newcastle Central is quite far out of the way for anyone working in the RVI, retail, or the universities to name a few examples. 

It should be a success if Northern manage it properly (and maybe start communicating to drivers when they want to terminate a service short rather than letting them know when it's too late...), and it can be a success without having a devastating impact on local bus services which serve a different purpose - not everyone works in Newcastle!

(16 Dec 2024, 8:38 pm)PH - BQA wrote I'm assuming the 35 passengers is in reference to my earlier post of sightings this morning. I'd point out (yet again...) that the X21 tends to dump significant amounts at both Cramlington Industrial Estate and Regent Centre, and loadings of 30+ into town from Gosforth are still pretty healthy when you take that into account. 

As it happens I was on 7533 into town prior to it working the 1700 X22, and it took in about 25 (though some of those were off through Gosforth), and had a hefty queue waiting for it. I was on 7530 on the way back on the 1745, and again there was a good load. 

As we have seen today, a train can be cancelled just as easily as a bus can be...

It's hard to really discuss the Regent Centre currently though, have to remember there's the interchange at Northumberland Park which might see some people move across, especially when they can use the same ticket on both. It's arguably the biggest win for the railway line, if anything.

Let's be honest it's hard to discuss it yet though when half the stations are shut still, including Bedlington Station and Northumberland Park and not everyone is going to jump across on the first day and will sit out any teething issues.

Probably better to judge after a month or so where things are really.

(16 Dec 2024, 8:50 pm)Storx wrote It's hard to really discuss the Regent Centre currently though, have to remember there's the interchange at Northumberland Park which might see some people move across, especially when they can use the same ticket on both. It's arguably the biggest win for the railway line, if anything.

Again, not my point really. NHS workers for the Freeman catch the 553 from Regent Centre, and there's also a decent chunk who work at Regent Point. There's obviously other large offices around there too.

If you are instead suggesting that those workers for the various places of employment around the Regent Centre are going to use a train and then connect with a Metro then I think that's reasonably unlikely if they can do the same journey without changing.

(16 Dec 2024, 9:05 pm)PH - BQA wrote Again, not my point really. NHS workers for the Freeman catch the 553 from Regent Centre, and there's also a decent chunk who work at Regent Point. There's obviously other large offices around there too.

If you are instead suggesting that those workers for the various places of employment around the Regent Centre are going to use a train and then connect with a Metro then I think that's reasonably unlikely if they can do the same journey without changing.

Definitely not, don't expect anyone to use the Metro to actually go to Gosforth from SE Northumberland but I'd assume there's some heading towards Gateshead or what not.

Roger's blog about the Northumberland Line

https://busandtrainuser.com/2024/12/17/n...more-69146

Caught the 1236 departure on Sunday.

Units 158860 and 158843 forming the service with 158860 arriving carrying an emergency headlamp on the front - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...4206572106 - must be concerned incase the electrics failed on the unit during the journey.

On arrival to Newcastle, the units were split, 158860 headed off to Heaton depot with 158843 going off to do a run to the Metrocentre.

Class 156 units 156482 (Newcastle end) and 156451 (Ashington end), were recruited to replace the pair and were moved from Platform 9 over the King Edward and High Level bridges into Platform 1 to form the 1354 departure, and was used the rest of the day - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...4206812383

As for stations, I think Bebside will win a lot of passengers from the buses, as walking to the train station is just going to be as short of a distance as it is walking to the bus stops as Asda for those who live in the new build, some might even drive to the station.

Ashington will attract people who either live nearby or car users that live in surrounding areas taking advantage of the park and ride facilities. Seaton Deleval might be the same.

Bedlington Station will probably be local footfall as I don't think it has facilities for parking.

Newsham and Seaton Deleval, possibly could attract people living near the coast to drive to the station to use the Park and Ride facilities.

It also depends on what happens when Northumberland Park opens providing new transport links onto the Metro or onto the 19 for Cobalt if people change their travel habits.

As for the delays on Monday afternoon, I believe there was something tangled in the overhead line near to Benton Junction saw it saw the job stopped for a short while.

(18 Dec 2024, 1:00 am)Rapidsnap wrote Ashington will attract people who either live nearby or car users that live in surrounding areas taking advantage of the park and ride facilities. Seaton Deleval might be the same.

Can't comment on the Ashington side but seems quite a few leisure people are heading up to Delaval station looking on Facebook etc. 

Mind I'm not sure whether it'll last but the few X7's I've seen are struggling as an understatement. 

One passed before at around 2.30pm towards Newcastle with 3 people on which is not normal loadings.

The one earlier on at 9.30am wasn't much better believe that had about 7 people until Seghill where it started picking people up, or there were people waiting at least anyway. 

Always had a feeling that the Seaton Delaval to Blyth bit might struggle a bit as the railway station serves New Hartley aswell really.

(18 Dec 2024, 3:41 pm)Storx wrote Can't comment on the Ashington side but seems quite a few leisure people are heading up to Delaval station looking on Facebook etc. 

Mind I'm not sure whether it'll last but the few X7's I've seen are struggling as an understatement. 

One passed before at around 2.30pm towards Newcastle with 3 people on which is not normal loadings.

The one earlier on at 9.30am wasn't much better believe that had about 7 people until Seghill where it started picking people up, or there were people waiting at least anyway. 

Always had a feeling that the Seaton Delaval to Blyth bit might struggle a bit as the railway station serves New Hartley aswell really.

Hmm, it doesn't seem to cover much though in the 400m radius though (using Nexus' guidance). 

Saying that.....the X7 as you've said is a very traffic prone with Peter Barratts, Hadricks Mill and Matthew Bank. So the train could be attractive even with a bit of a walk as opposed to the issues the X7 poses.

Only other thing, this week maybe isn't the best test as it's the wind down to Christmas. Maybe after New Year would be a better indicator.

(18 Dec 2024, 3:41 pm)Storx wrote Can't comment on the Ashington side but seems quite a few leisure people are heading up to Delaval station looking on Facebook etc. 

Mind I'm not sure whether it'll last but the few X7's I've seen are struggling as an understatement. 

One passed before at around 2.30pm towards Newcastle with 3 people on which is not normal loadings.

The one earlier on at 9.30am wasn't much better believe that had about 7 people until Seghill where it started picking people up, or there were people waiting at least anyway. 

Always had a feeling that the Seaton Delaval to Blyth bit might struggle a bit as the railway station serves New Hartley aswell really.

Every bus I've been on this week seems quieter than normal. Assuming that uni students on holiday and probably a lot of workers starting their Christmas holidays early has a lot to do with that. Probably best to wait until mid-January before trying to work out if the x7 etc has been hit by the train.

(18 Dec 2024, 6:02 pm)Shrek wrote Every bus I've been on this week seems quieter than normal. Assuming that uni students on holiday and probably a lot of workers starting their Christmas holidays early has a lot to do with that. Probably best to wait until mid-January before trying to work out if the x7 etc has been hit by the train.

Aye must admit haven't been out much and on any public transport so can't comment either way there, just seemed exceptionally low 2 people, it's usually at least 8 even on quiet buses bar the ones heading into town at 10/11pm. Newcastle was dead today though mind for being 1 week until Christmas. Not sure whether it's because of the road closures in Gateshead or something else.

(18 Dec 2024, 7:18 pm)Storx wrote Aye must admit haven't been out much and on any public transport so can't comment either way there, just seemed exceptionally low 2 people, it's usually at least 8 even on quiet buses bar the ones heading into town at 10/11pm. Newcastle was dead today though mind for being 1 week until Christmas. Not sure whether it's because of the road closures in Gateshead or something else.

I was there between 11 and 1-ish and it was busy as owt

(18 Dec 2024, 8:25 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I was there between 11 and 1-ish and it was busy as owt

Yep, I was in town over lunch and again from about 15:30 ahead of the match and it was very busy. At lunchtime in particular Northumberland Street was busy while I was walking up it, and Haymarket was busy when I jumped on a bus to Gosforth.

(18 Dec 2024, 6:02 pm)Shrek wrote Every bus I've been on this week seems quieter than normal. Assuming that uni students on holiday and probably a lot of workers starting their Christmas holidays early has a lot to do with that. Probably best to wait until mid-January before trying to work out if the x7 etc has been hit by the train.

I'd agree that I think a fair few people are on holiday this week, but I think that's also seeing larger passenger numbers during the day as opposed to what I'd normally expect. On my way to catching something home at lunchtime, I saw the 1325 X22 leaving Haymarket very busy (busy enough for me to take note, I genuinely thought it was a late running X18 or similar with a double load for Morpeth). As I'm generally at work during the daytime M-F, I can't comment on what loadings would usually be like, but quite a few things I've seen have been carrying more folk than I'd expect them to. 

That said, I caught an X47 to Kingston Park on my way to Jesmond about 14:30, and it was pretty much carrying fresh air for the period of time I was on it. I don't have much experience using it during the day, but I thought it would be performing better than that.

RTT showing the following services cancelled today:

1217 Newcastle to Ashington
1300 Ashington to Newcastle
1847 Newcastle to Ashington
1930 Ashington to Newcastle
1949 Newcastle to Ashington
2030 Ashington to Newcastle
2216 Newcastle to Ashington

The above would mean that there's a 2.5 hour gap in trains to Newcastle from Ashington between 1900 and 2130, and that the last train of the day is also cancelled. Reasons given are issues with crew on each of them as far as I can tell. Anyone know if this is correct? Seems reasonably poor for week 1 of running the service.