(17 Feb 2014, 1:32 pm)Dan wrote I think it's roughly £185k - £200k per vehicle - depending on how many vehicles are being ordered at that time, any extras being fitted (Wi-Fi etc)...

So the GNE equivalent would be between a Euro 5 standard Merc to a Euro 5 B9TL with power sockets etc fitted (inc. VAT).

That's quite lot for a bus - like you said, if your order a certain amount you might get a little discount

I think it's previously been commented that Stagecoach enjoy healthy discounts from ADL for their producs. In theory, as the technology evolves and units are produced in quantity, the cost should come down.

I'm sure I read somewhere that for all the Scania engine in these was designed specifically as a gas engine (as opposed to a converted diesel engine), over the whole bus there are only something like 40 unique parts that you wouldn't find on a conventinoal E300.

(17 Feb 2014, 2:29 pm)ADLEnviro wrote When Sir Brian invested in ADL it was to keep the plant open and guarantee healthy orders from the group, as with all operators a discount is offered for volume but with Stagecoach this isn't really a discount, its more of a loyalty thing were vehicles are offered at a cost price plus a percentage for future development to keep ADL in a healthy position. This equates to just over £156,000 for the current Gas buses entering the fleet.

So its win win as far as the gas buses go.

Stagecoach get Government money to purchase them, but purchase them from the manufacturer that their owner has a massive stake in.

Stagecoach get new buses for nowt, ADL get guaranteed orders and Souter gets a return twice - once from both investments!

(17 Feb 2014, 2:29 pm)ADLEnviro wrote When Sir Brian invested in ADL it was to keep the plant open and guarantee healthy orders from the group, as with all operators a discount is offered for volume but with Stagecoach this isn't really a discount, its more of a loyalty thing were vehicles are offered at a cost price plus a percentage for future development to keep ADL in a healthy position. This equates to just over £156,000 for the current Gas buses entering the fleet.

Crikey! I knew Stagecoach got a discount (or the loyalty alternative, as you put it) on what they would usually cost, but I definitely didn't imagine it would be such a heavy reduction in cost.

(17 Feb 2014, 1:32 pm)Dan wrote I think it's roughly £185k - £200k per vehicle - depending on how many vehicles are being ordered at that time, any extras being fitted (Wi-Fi etc)...

So the GNE equivalent would be between a Euro 5 standard Merc to a Euro 5 B9TL with power sockets etc fitted (inc. VAT).

Although you'd expect the ongoing operating costs to be significantly lower than that of a Euro 5 Citaro? I'd suggest that would certainly influence any business case to spend more on this vehicle type.

(17 Feb 2014, 2:55 pm)aureolin wrote Although you'd expect the ongoing operating costs to be significantly lower than that of a Euro 5 Citaro? I'd suggest that would certainly influence any business case to spend more on this vehicle type.

Even more so when you look at the figure quoted above. I believe Reading had to pay around £185k per vehicle though.

Only difference to look at is the ride quality - which is better for passengers? The gas bus may be quiet now, but how many rattles will develop 5 years down the line?
Also the cost of the infrastructure etc for first time buyers.

The cost of both will increase now what with Euro 6 legislations and all.

Sunderland MANs 22666 and 22735 have both just had full size rear adverts applied- havent managed to see what there advertising yet though.

Temporary eastbound closure of Durham Road (at Ettrick Grove), affecting Services 3, 4 and 23 Service Update
During Sunday 2 March 2014, Sunderland City Council will need to temporarily close the eastbound carriageway of Durham Road (at Ettrick Grove) to allow for roadworks.

Last Updated : 17 February 2014 17:1

It is anticipated the road closure will be in place between approximately 0800 - 1800 on Sunday 2 March 2014, during which period buses will not be able to serve their normal eastbound stops along this section of Durham Road (including those at the Prospect).

Service 3 will also be unable to observe its bus stops along Premier Road, west of Pearl Road.

During the works period, eastbound Services 3, 4 and 23 will be diverted via Premier Road and Silksworth Lane, observing all bus stops along the line of the diversionary route.

Westbound journeys on Services 3, 4 and 23 should be unaffected by these works.

Clearly, whilst we will be endeavouring to operate these services in accordance with their published timetables, as well as continuing to liaise with our colleagues at Sunderland City Council to mitigate any problems, due to the additional mileage which is required by this diversion there is the potential that bus services in the area may be subject to delays and disruption.

Stagecoach would like to apologise for any inconvenience these highways works by Sunderland City Council may cause, and we remain grateful for customers’ patience and understanding.

(17 Feb 2014, 2:58 pm)Dan wrote Even more so when you look at the figure quoted above. I believe Reading had to pay around £185k per vehicle though.

Only difference to look at is the ride quality - which is better for passengers? The gas bus may be quiet now, but how many rattles will develop 5 years down the line?
Also the cost of the infrastructure etc for first time buyers.

The cost of both will increase now what with Euro 6 legislations and all.

The Citaro is going to win hands down on ride quality any day of the week, purely for the fact it's a Mercedes. To the average customer though? I don't think many would say the 300NGs are of a poor ride quality. I was really impressed with them myself. I do think it'll be interesting 5 years down the line, as the Mercedes quality really stands out here. The first GNE batch of Citaros (5275 for example) are still as good as they were on day 1 in service. Of course that proven track record isn't there with the 300NGs yet.

I found an interesting presentation based on Coca Cola using Biomethane vs Diesel as a trial. It was the best comparison I could find on fuel costings too. Here if anyone wants a look.

(17 Feb 2014, 6:45 pm)aureolin wrote The Citaro is going to win hands down on ride quality any day of the week, purely for the fact it's a Mercedes. To the average customer though? I don't think many would say the 300NGs are of a poor ride quality. I was really impressed with them myself. I do think it'll be interesting 5 years down the line, as the Mercedes quality really stands out here. The first GNE batch of Citaros (5275 for example) are still as good as they were on day 1 in service. Of course that proven track record isn't there with the 300NGs yet.

I found an interesting presentation based on Coca Cola using Biomethane vs Diesel as a trial. It was the best comparison I could find on fuel costings too. Here if anyone wants a look.

To this day, the Citaro is one of my favorite buses, i also agree with them being as good as they were when they first got them.


Of course how long can the Gas buses last?
Will Stagecoach make that risk and make Sunderland depot 100% Gas bus?

(17 Feb 2014, 6:51 pm)Michael wrote To this day, the Citaro is one of my favorite buses, i also agree with them being as good as they were when they first got them.


Of course how long can the Gas buses last?
Will Stagecoach make that risk and make Sunderland depot 100% Gas bus?

The gas buses are using fairly new technology compared to the Citaro.

Stagecoach have got to err on the side of caution, but take into account any risks with reliability versus the investment made with fueling facilities.
You then have potential issues when selling them in the future, as an independent operator isn't likely to have gas fuelling facilities (or build any).

Another repeat of the Quaylink Designlines? I hope not!

(17 Feb 2014, 6:51 pm)Michael wrote To this day, the Citaro is one of my favorite buses, i also agree with them being as good as they were when they first got them.


Of course how long can the Gas buses last?
Will Stagecoach make that risk and make Sunderland depot 100% Gas bus?

I guess it's a case of how long is a piece of string. If they do last without problems, then it's a very sound investment. If the potential operating costs are significantly lower than that of a Diesel vehicle, it's going to force competitors to go down a similar route.

(17 Feb 2014, 7:06 pm)andreos1 wrote Another repeat of the Quaylink Designlines? I hope not!

I hope not!

---------
So far (fingers crossed) they haven't had any issues when out on the road - i:e for road testing and the 2 which went to Seaburn on the opening didn't break down.

I hope this is a sign of the whole of SC NE getting some in the future to work along side the Enviro's.

If of course they work out.

Question from the opening day - did any one mention how long these take to re-fuel?

(17 Feb 2014, 7:15 pm)Michael wrote I hope not!

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So far (fingers crossed) they haven't had any issues when out on the road - i:e for road testing and the 2 which went to Seaburn on the opening didn't break down.

I hope this is a sign of the whole of SC NE getting some in the future to work along side the Enviro's.

If of course they work out.

Question from the opening day - did any one mention how long these take to re-fuel?

Yep - I asked the question. Apparently they'll only take 5 minutes or so to refuel overnight, but once every so often it will take longer. Something to do with fuel tank maintenance iirc.

(17 Feb 2014, 7:17 pm)aureolin wrote Yep - I asked the question. Apparently they'll only take 5 minutes or so to refuel overnight, but once every so often it will take longer. Something to do with fuel tank maintenance iirc.

Bloody hell that's quick.

How often will they need to re-fueled during the day? - not sure on its engine size etc.

As theirs 3 spares in the depot - least theirs something to cover the re-fueling etc.

I just hope their not off the road alot

(17 Feb 2014, 7:24 pm)Michael wrote Bloody hell that's quick.

How often will they need to re-fueled during the day? - not sure on its engine size etc.

As theirs 3 spares in the depot - least theirs something to cover the re-fueling etc.

I just hope their not off the road alot

When they have been going to Darlo for refuel, they are only able to be filled up to about three quarters full due to the lower pressure that the Ecocities accept to refuel compared to the Scanias. Going there and back they are using a quarter of the fuel due to the distance and speeds covered.

In other news, the Wigan Transport Trust has acquired 21104 for preservation, which will be taking part in this years UK rally season.

(17 Feb 2014, 5:29 pm)dans_bus_photos wrote Sunderland MANs 22666 and 22735 have both just had full size rear adverts applied- havent managed to see what there advertising yet though.

Believe they're advertising Southmoor Sixth Form.

Still think the decision to upgrade the 20 to gas buses was the wrong one. Currently sat on a packed ALX300 towards town. Most journeys are like this too, which makes you wonder why double deckers weren't considered to be the right choice.
E400Hs would have been ideal.

(18 Feb 2014, 11:21 am)Dan wrote Still think the decision to upgrade the 20 to gas buses was the wrong one. Currently sat on a packed ALX300 towards town. Most journeys are like this too, which makes you wonder why double deckers weren't considered to be the right choice.
E400Hs would have been ideal.

Thought i was the only person who thinks the 20 needs deckers.

Sure someone said ages ago that non of the Sunderland services requires deckers because the passenger numbers are low...

Sneaky shot attached of the loadings...not sure what it looks like as I tried to take it without looking like a prat!

We've left behind two pushchairs already...

(18 Feb 2014, 11:30 am)Dan wrote Sneaky shot attached of the loadings...not sure what it looks like as I tried to take it without looking like a prat!

We've left behind two pushchairs already...

That's nothing compared to the 36/37/38 on Teesside...
Indeed I had more stood up on my Cadet on the 17 yesterday!

(18 Feb 2014, 11:31 am)tyresmoke wrote That's nothing compared to the 36/37/38 on Teesside...
Indeed I had more stood up on my Cadet on the 17 yesterday!

With three stood up at the back and passengers crammed up to the step in the middle now...
Has been standees since the third stop in.

(18 Feb 2014, 11:31 am)tyresmoke wrote That's nothing compared to the 36/37/38 on Teesside...
Indeed I had more stood up on my Cadet on the 17 yesterday!

Indeed, especially at peaks it's not unknown for all 36/37/38 out of Middlesborugh after half 4 to have standing loads - in both directions.

(18 Feb 2014, 11:34 am)Dan wrote With three stood up at the back and passengers crammed up to the step in the middle now...
Has been standees since the third stop in.

Happens all the time down here too. The 13 on a market day from my end to Stockton can often have about 20 stood up by the time you get to the town. It's only a 10-15 min journey though so its not really an issue.
36s are like that all day long yet they're buying single decks for it again !?!?

Im sitting on the 23 heading towards city centre and theirs currently 3 pushchairs on.

What ia the limit for pushchairs, currently on one of the new envrios

(18 Feb 2014, 11:45 am)Michael wrote Im sitting on the 23 heading towards city centre and theirs currently 3 pushchairs on.

What ia the limit for pushchairs, currently on one of the new envrios

Stagecoach allow 3 at the drivers discretion. But they must be folded in a wheelchair wants to board!

27727 broken down opposite Empire Cinema in Sunderland.

Temporary diversion omitting Stockton Road from Tuesday 18 February for 3 weeks Service Update
Due to introduction of temporary 3-way traffic signals on Stockton Road in Sunderland City Centre to facilitate emergency gas works, eastbound bus services are having to be temporarily diverted.

Last Updated : 18 February 2014 11:47

These diversions are as follows:

Service X1 from Doxford International towards city centre to divert from Priestman roundabout via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route.

Service 3 from Farringdon towards city centre to divert from Priestman roundabout via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route

Service 4 from Doxford Park towards city centre to divert from Priestman roundabout via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route

Service 5/5A from Doxford Park towards city centre to divert from Chester Road via St.Michaels Way, High Street West, St. Marys Way, Bedford Street, John Street, Borough Road, Fawcett Street then normal route.

Service 8 from South Hylton towards city centre to divert from Silksworth Row via St.Michaels Way, High Street West, St. Marys Way, Bedford Street, John Street, Borough Road, Fawcett Street then normal route.

Service 10/11 from Pennywell towards city centre to divert from St.Michaels Way via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Borough Road then normal route.

Service 12 from Silksworth towards city centre to divert from Priestman roundabout via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route

Service 13 from Doxford Park towards city centre to divert from Priestman roundabout via Tunstall Road, Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route

Service 16 from Hastings Hill towards city centre to divert from Chester Road via St.Michaels Way, High Street West, St. Marys Way, Bedford Street, John Street, Borough Road, Fawcett Street then normal route.

Service 20 from Pennywell towards city centre to divert from Silksworth Row via St.Michaels Way, High Street West, St. Marys Way, Bedford Street, John Street, Borough Road, Fawcett Street then normal route.

Service 23 from Thorney Close towards city centre to divert from Thornholme Road via Belvedere Road, Park Road, Burdon Road, Fawcett Street then normal route

Westbound journeys on these services are unaffected.

As a consequence of these diversions, Service 23 will be unable to observe its northbound stop on Tunstall Road, and no services will be able to observe the bus stop on the diversionary route along Stockton Road. Customers are advised to use the next/previous bus stops.

Whilst it is anticipated these works will be in place for around 3 weeks, buses will revert to normal routes once these temporary works have been completed.

Clearly, whilst we will be endeavouring to operate all services through this area in accordance with their published timetables, as well as continuing to liaise with our colleagues at Sunderland City Council to mitigate any problems, there is nonetheless the potential that some trips may be subject to localised delays.

Stagecoach would like to apologise for any inconvenience these works by Sunderland City Council may cause, and we remain grateful for customers’ patience and understanding.

As i found out today while on the 23 which completely missed out the Stockton road bus stop.

22666's rear advert:


22735's rear advert:

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(18 Feb 2014, 7:54 pm)Michael wrote Temporary diversion omitting Stockton Road from Tuesday 18 February for 3 weeks Service Update

A photo of this below:

Bloody nightmare it was, waited 10 mins at the temp traffic lights at around 11:40am this morning, driver wasn't happy. I'm a tad confused with the diversions though, the 16 one because i though that road next to the empire was shut?