I'm favour of a flat-fare structure as a means of simplifying the cost of travel. Although it may seem controversial to some, I would also probably get rid of the majority of returns and 'day-savers'. However, I would keep weekly and monthly passes for regular users. For a small area like South Shields, a simple £1.00 (or even less) fare could be introduced. Who knows, a marketing campaign highlighting the simplicity of the 'one fare, one journey' concept might even encourage more people to use public transport as the structure is easier to understand. As previously discussed, sometimes people don't necessarily want a day-ticket to travel on two buses for a one-directional journey*, and, quite often, people are under the impression that returns are limited to just one service**. Some of these concerns can be immediately addressed by simply getting rid of returns and day-tickets.

Am I mad in my thinking or does anyone else see the potential merits in this idea?

* By one-directional journey, I mean passengers wishing to travel one-way between, say, Chopwell and Gateshead, (not wishing to make the return journey) who are forced to buy 'day-saver' tickets because there no direct service is available.

** A particular area might have one service operating during the day and a different service during the evening. For example, presumably we all know that return journeys bought on the W2 are valid on the W2A (or the 11 and the 10a to name another example), but are other passengers aware of this?

(20 May 2013, 8:11 pm)gtomlinson wrote One interesting comparison I've made.

Durham to Newcastle on the X21 or 21 is a 2 zone annual buzzfare which will set you back £822 a year.

Durham to Newcastle with Arriva on the X2 is £575 a year.

Durham to Newcastle on train is £1,148,00 (out of interest it's £816 from Chester Le Street) which means the train is cheaper than Go Ahead from Chester Le Street.

Now there's a massive discrepancy there between GNE and Arriva, now you get less choice with Arriva but for a commuter the Arriva X2 service runs at perfectly reliable times and is now run with decent kit.

Obviously the train stands out because your there in 10 minutes and you pay the premium

Juts to add to that post. Durham to Newcastle using Arriva is available under the 'Durham District' zone. Which is how it comes out at £575. Interestingly, a comparable route saver option on Go North East would cost £863, as it only comes in a weekly form.

(20 May 2013, 8:38 pm)aureolin wrote

(20 May 2013, 8:11 pm)gtomlinson wrote One interesting comparison I've made.

Durham to Newcastle on the X21 or 21 is a 2 zone annual buzzfare which will set you back £822 a year.

Durham to Newcastle with Arriva on the X2 is £575 a year.

Durham to Newcastle on train is £1,148,00 (out of interest it's £816 from Chester Le Street) which means the train is cheaper than Go Ahead from Chester Le Street.

Now there's a massive discrepancy there between GNE and Arriva, now you get less choice with Arriva but for a commuter the Arriva X2 service runs at perfectly reliable times and is now run with decent kit.

Obviously the train stands out because your there in 10 minutes and you pay the premium

Juts to add to that post. Durham to Newcastle using Arriva is available under the 'Durham District' zone. Which is how it comes out at £575. Interestingly, a comparable route saver option on Go North East would cost £863, as it only comes in a weekly form.

Your right yes, I forgot to mention that, Arriva should really push that price. Pointing out to commuters how much cheaper you are than Go Ahead on the route and you might not get wi-fi but you'll get a seat and you won't get Steve and Karen from MetroFM telling your....we're approaching Birtley!

@AdamY
I can see where you are coming from re flat fares, but where does it end and if travelling between zones, is it fair to be penalised by a massive amount?

The example given from Low Fell to the Coach & Horses would be approx 5 miles.
We have already clarified the difference between this point and North Lodge is approx 4 miles, if you assume the Birtley 'zone' starts at the south end of the Eighton Lodge Roundabout, we can safely round it so the Birtley zone is 5 miles (approx 2.5 miles either side of the Town Centre).
So.... gtomlinson is travelling 5 miles and it costs him £1.95. Someone travelling twice as far costs £1.95, just because the end point falls in the same zone.

You then have the example you provided between Swalwell & Whickham and Swalwell & Winlaton (penalised for living at the top of a bank)as well as the example I provided between the QE and Shiney & the QE to Houghton (about 5 miles between the two end points, in the same postcode area and in the same town).

As for Arriva between Durham and Newcastle. That is a fantastic fare! Their marketing team need to jump on it and push it massively.
I use the train North from Durham going to Scotland pretty regularly. Generally getting the 17.25ish or 18.25ish trains, there are a massive number of passengers travelling only as far as Newcastle who get on at Durham...

(20 May 2013, 9:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote As for Arriva between Durham and Newcastle. That is a fantastic fare! Their marketing team need to jump on it and push it massively.
I use the train North from Durham going to Scotland pretty regularly. Generally getting the 17.25ish or 18.25ish trains, there are a massive number of passengers travelling only as far as Newcastle who get on at Durham...

It'd be interesting to see how GNE responded if Arriva upped their game on the route. I know they failed miserably with the X21 but it was a poorly marketed route and was done in a whisper as opposed to a shout.

Yeah, I have to admit I used the train when I worked down in Durham and lived in Low Fell. I found it quicker to get the train then either walk if it was a nice summers' evening or get a bus out of Newcastle into Low Fell than catch a 21.

I've just checked and a lot of people who work at the Passport Office in Durham can qualify for corporate train season tickets which saves them a fortune

Looking at it objectively, Arriva miss out due to the frequency of their services.
GNE and the train win, due to their frequency and for the latter, the speed also.

Passengers are basically paying GNE and the rail operators a premium to get to their destination quicker and having a bigger choice of services.

(24 May 2013, 8:41 am)Andreos1 wrote Looking at it objectively, Arriva miss out due to the frequency of their services.
GNE and the train win, due to their frequency and for the latter, the speed also.

Passengers are basically paying GNE and the rail operators a premium to get to their destination quicker and having a bigger choice of services.

Surely the fact is that, because the GNE service is so good, a substantial number of passengers are happy to pay a premium fare? Drive down the price and you'll drive down the quality; then the only winner would be the private car!

(24 May 2013, 2:13 pm)eezypeazy wrote Surely the fact is that, because the GNE service is so good, a substantial number of passengers are happy to pay a premium fare? Drive down the price and you'll drive down the quality; then the only winner would be the private car!

I'd say quantity doesn't exactly equal quality in this case, you've simply got GNE established on the route since year dot in various incarnations being the default go to

Being honest, is the GNE service between Durham and Newcastle good?
All you have to do is look at the service changes and ammendments over the last couple of years to see it is anything but good.

If I was paying a premium for that service, based on it being 'good', I would have wanted my money back a long time ago.

You're not paying a premium for quality though. Both buses will get you from A to B, and besides, if you got the X21 (i.e. not allocated brand new hybrids), you'd pay the same price (using an angel saver), but get worse quality than Arriva from that aspect?

Article in the Guardian today about public transport fare rises hitting the young the hardest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/...ises-young

Completely forgot about this www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/local-news/lord-adonis-experiences-severe-delays-1351360

If the multi millionaire peer, thinks £1.90 is 'steep' for such a short fare, dread to think what his tweets would be for other routes

I think pricing within Tyne & Wear Is generally good. I think it is the rest of the region where it's lacking. I live in County Durham and the lack of any decent ticket where I live is a joke. I think either each local authority, T&W, C. Durham, Northumberland & Teeside all need there own transport card similar to the Nexus Pop/Network 1 system or more favourably a region wide card system, possibly with use on bus/metro/train. I think Zones are just one of them things really, no matter how hard you try there's always going to be a problem with a zone somewhere. I mean take the current borders of GNE's Buzzfare, South Hetton-Easington Lane, I don't know a specific fare but with one being a red zone and in Tyne & Wear and one being in turquoise zone and in County Durham, there's no DayTicket or anything suitable so going across to Sunderland from here is very costly, best option likely to be a two Zone Buzzfare at £6.10! But yet you can go to Middlesbrough for £4.65? It's a bit silly thinking about it like that.

Its when zones are set up with the sole intention of making money that frustrates me.

Key/popular routes with no competition often go through 3 zones end to end, whilst a similar duration/distance journey with competition will only have 1 or 2 zones.
Additional zones were added to the west of the region too.

The old system (which has been mentioned earlier) of Tyne & Wear, Co Durham etc was great for customers, easy to understand and was very affordable.

I have used a similar example previously on the old GNE facebook discussion page, but if I was to buy a red ticket - I could travel from Shiney Row to Woodstone Village to drop the kids at school, change buses and head to Houghton to pay some bills. From there, I can go to Hetton to go to the gym, change onto the bus to Seaham and eventually work my way up to South Shields to do some shopping and get some fish & chips - before making my way to see a mate in Hebburn. Heading home I have a range of options staying in the red zone.
I've travelled miles, used at least 7 buses just to get to Hebburn, but it is cheaper than getting a red/purple ticket from Shiney to Hebburn via Heworth or Gateshead and not being able to drop the kids off, pay the bills, do the shopping or have any fish & chips at the coast...

Aureloin also used the example previously about needing a 3zone ticket to travel between Washington, Chester and Shiney Row (we all know how far you can get on one of those tickets!).

From Bournmoor, it is cheaper to go to Sunderland on the bus, (even though it is further and in a different county) than it is to pop down the road to Chester le Street...

Bought a transfare for the first time in 10 years last night. £4.10 from Central Station to Washington - I kid you not. It's not right people are hit financially just because the metro doesn't cover most of Tyne and Wear. I think a 3 zone single is £3.20 which will get you from south hylton to the airport. 90p less than the said transfare.

(05 Jun 2013, 5:22 pm)aureolin wrote Bought a transfare for the first time in 10 years last night. £4.10 from Central Station to Washington - I kid you not. It's not right people are hit financially just because the metro doesn't cover most of Tyne and Wear. I think a 3 zone single is £3.20 which will get you from south hylton to the airport. 90p less than the said transfare.

How can that be justified a) with the price of the 3 zone single and b) compared to the price of a Day Rover?

I would love to see the breakdown/split and what proportion is "metro" fare and what proportion is "bus" fare.

(05 Jun 2013, 8:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote How can that be justified a) with the price of the 3 zone single and b) compared to the price of a Day Rover?

I would love to see the breakdown/split and what proportion is "metro" fare and what proportion is "bus" fare.

The 2 zone single fare would be £2.50, so you'd have to say £1.60 of it. I don't think it'd be much more for two singles?

What is the cost of a bus fare covering the same journeys but direct - say on the X1 or 56?

This is my concern with this Nexus thing and how it will affect the towns and villages 'on the border'

Nexus have already said fares will probably go up

I personally think that cross-operator tickets are needed. I mean some areas especially in County Durham go from being solely GNE to solely Arriva. I mean it's similar in Teeside which has a vast stagecoach presence down there, but that means little buses from other areas. I mean Some example High Pittington-Shotton Colliery, 10 minute car journey, but to get a bus you'll have to take GNE 260/259 to Durham then get Arriva 24/22 or get GNE 259 to Sheburn then the ANE 24. Which means 4 singles, I can only guess at prices but I'm assuming on the 24 it'll be about £2.90 single (£5.00 return?) then if Durham town & city fare zones apply in pittington it'll be £1.45 either way. Leading to a ten minute journeys costing give or take £7.90. Surely it's time County Durham got some sort of cross-operator tickets?

It all comes down to what Lord Adonis and others have said about the NE.

We need to stop acting like a bunch of protective regionally xenophobic parochial idiots.

Newcastle needs to stop looking down at everyone else, Sunderland needs to get over Newcastle and we need that ethos brought into our public transport.

A city wide region from the Tees up to Berwick

(06 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm)CatsFast101 wrote I personally think that cross-operator tickets are needed. I mean some areas especially in County Durham go from being solely GNE to solely Arriva. I mean it's similar in Teeside which has a vast stagecoach presence down there, but that means little buses from other areas. I mean Some example High Pittington-Shotton Colliery, 10 minute car journey, but to get a bus you'll have to take GNE 260/259 to Durham then get Arriva 24/22 or get GNE 259 to Sheburn then the ANE 24. Which means 4 singles, I can only guess at prices but I'm assuming on the 24 it'll be about £2.90 single (£5.00 return?) then if Durham town & city fare zones apply in pittington it'll be £1.45 either way. Leading to a ten minute journeys costing give or take £7.90. Surely it's time County Durham got some sort of cross-operator tickets?

There is a cross operator ticket already - the Explorer North East. £9.30 valid on the big three, any County Durham and Nexus supported services as well as the Metro, the Ferry and Northern Rail between Newcastle and Sunderland. It's valid.

Also, your point regarding Teesside is invalid as we already have cross operator tickets. The Daytripper valid on Arriva and Stagecoach (but it's 5p cheaper on Arriva now than Stagecoach when it used to be the other way round, currently £4.35 on Stagecoach and £4.30 on Arriva). There's also the Easyrider which is available in two forms, the Teesside only zone and also one that covers Hartlepool and East Cleveland. The difference is the Easyrider is also valid on Compass Royston's commercial work (which only consists of their R66 to Teesside PRk and that is part-funded by the park's management) as well as all supported services operated by Leven Valley and Redcar & Cleveland Council.

The explorer isn't exactly great.. £9.30 for a ten minute journey to visit an auntie 10 minutes down the road?!

(06 Jun 2013, 1:08 pm)Kuyoyo wrote

(06 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm)CatsFast101 wrote I personally think that cross-operator tickets are needed. I mean some areas especially in County Durham go from being solely GNE to solely Arriva. I mean it's similar in Teeside which has a vast stagecoach presence down there, but that means little buses from other areas. I mean Some example High Pittington-Shotton Colliery, 10 minute car journey, but to get a bus you'll have to take GNE 260/259 to Durham then get Arriva 24/22 or get GNE 259 to Sheburn then the ANE 24. Which means 4 singles, I can only guess at prices but I'm assuming on the 24 it'll be about £2.90 single (£5.00 return?) then if Durham town & city fare zones apply in pittington it'll be £1.45 either way. Leading to a ten minute journeys costing give or take £7.90. Surely it's time County Durham got some sort of cross-operator tickets?

There is a cross operator ticket already - the Explorer North East. £9.30 valid on the big three, any County Durham and Nexus supported services as well as the Metro, the Ferry and Northern Rail between Newcastle and Sunderland. It's valid.

Also, your point regarding Teesside is invalid as we already have cross operator tickets. The Daytripper valid on Arriva and Stagecoach (but it's 5p cheaper on Arriva now than Stagecoach when it used to be the other way round, currently £4.35 on Stagecoach and £4.30 on Arriva). There's also the Easyrider which is available in two forms, the Teesside only zone and also one that covers Hartlepool and East Cleveland. The difference is the Easyrider is also valid on Compass Royston's commercial work (which only consists of their R66 to Teesside PRk and that is part-funded by the park's management) as well as all supported services operated by Leven Valley and Redcar & Cleveland Council.

Couple of years ago I did email DCC about having an interactive pass/ticket for the County, as it was extortion the prices of Arriva and GNE having to use both companies to make a journey and even a journey on a smaller operator by them doing some contract work from DCC, DCC did comment that there were looking to do this with the bus companies for the following year, but time has passed and still nothing.

I thought that since the metro came to Sunderland and Nexus stop passengers using there network traveltickets on the northern rail section between Sunderland and Newcastle, due to Nexus not funding the use of network travel tickets for northern rail as there wanted there passengers using metro instead, im very surprised that you can use explorer tickets on northern rail (Sunderland-Newcastle section)

The point about Teesside tickets is perfectly valid, particularly for those not living on Teesside and travelling from further afield

Sorry for the double post, but something came to me last night and thought it worth sticking on here.

GNE (and other bus companies too) need to make a certain amount of money per mile from their passengers. That probably explains why it costs more on the X1 from Wrekenton to Gateshead/Newcastle than it does on say the 56 or 58 - the X1 can't generate additional revenue from passengers between the points, other than the QE with it being limited stop.

The point I'm making is that on certain routes at certain times of the day, more profit will be generated than others, creating a surplus, which will cover costs when it is quiet.

However, due to the cuts they have made on certain services by axing, reducing or stopping it running in the evening or Sunday, the amount of money they generate will possibly be diminished.

Without having all of their figures to analyse, it becomes difficult - but say I buy a 2 zone ticket at £6.10. The initial bus I get on records that ticket and that service has generated £6.10 towards its income.
If I head to the Metrocentre, changing at the Galleries and Gateshead, immediately, the price GNE are making per mile is diminshed. Because of the cuts made to the daytime services, when I head home, I need to use four buses - opposed to the outgoing journey of 3. Meaning that the revenue generated by my initial £6.10 purchase is minimal. Using a conservative estimate of a 35mile round trip (it is probably nearer 40 miles due to the additional bus on my way home), the pence per mile generated by GNE from my journey is 18p.
That journey isn't beyond normal and is one myself and others make on a regular basis.
The price per mile would actually be more expensive had they not cut/reduced services to save money/generate more day ticket sales.

A few weeks back, I had a red and purple ticket - travelled from home to the Galleries to sort some bills out, back home for a bit, I headed out to Newcastle, popped to Birtley to see family and then had to get a bus to the Galleries so I could get a connecting bus home. The pence per mile generated on that ticket would be minimal.

I know this has been touched on in the past, but compare that to me going on a short journey of 3 miles and being charged £1.45 for a single and the price per mile from that fare is 48p.
Or a 15 mile journey costing £3.15 and the price per mile of 21p.

They narrow the data for the target down far too much. Having a target across a depot or even a brand would provide a far better service than having it per run. It wouldn't please the shareholders though!

(13 Jun 2013, 7:38 pm)citaro5284 wrote

(13 Jun 2013, 6:56 pm)aureolin wrote They narrow the data for the target down far too much. Having a target across a depot or even a brand would provide a far better service than having it per run. It wouldn't please the shareholders though!

The target is based on route

I disagree based on what GNE have done in the past. They've took some of the late runs on the X1 off based on not enough people using that run to make it commercially feasible.

The late X1s probably wont be feasible if a typical passenger is using something like an oap pass for a short run from Newbottle club back home to Houghton or a passenger using a heavily diluted day ticket like I have done in the past.

A bus running at that time of night, is very rarely going to pick up cash passengers. It will be people heading home on day/week/28day tickets or for local journeys an oap pass.

Edit: I was reading this earlier. Good job GNE or other local companies don't operate in Brazil! www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22899748

Just seen this on twitter
"@stephbreakfast: Bus fares are up by nearly 5% over last 12months+ 60million fewer journeys were made by bus compared with previous year (@statisticsONS)"