(02 Aug 2023, 6:53 pm)mb134 wrote According to Wikipedia, he grew up in Killingworth - and some of these routes go to Killingworth? I mean it's clutching at straws. 

To me, and I imagine to pretty much everyone else, a rocket is something that is quite quick. None of these services are really that quick from anywhere to anywhere. The word "regular" on the tagline is doing a *lot* of heavy lifting too, given that some of the services are a cut in frequency compared to what they are replacing, and what Stagecoach are offering in some cases. 

Ultimately, we've watched countless irrelevant brands be introduced over the past few years (particularly under previous management) and look at where the company is now. Given Stagecoach are offering decent service levels on a few of these routes, and that some are only surviving with subsidy, it wouldn't surprise me to see at least some of these needing another rebrand relatively soon. At that point, and with how many other ridiculous brands (Sunderland District anyone?) have died a very quick death, surely actually using the corporate livery starts to make sense?

Let's be honest it's questionable what the motive behind these are, as imo it's a bit of a PR stunt more than anything.

I don't see how they can possibly see the 352 and 354 as viable services yet services like 17, 19 and 81 aren't viable services yet the last 3 are arguably busier and cover similar areas aswell.

Not to mention there were routes with changes every other week and that was pre all this mess, and I won't let him live down the absolute shambles of the X4 doing it.

It's just a matter of time before the 37 and 38 succeed and GNE come out with the well we tried, aren't we nice, nonsense.

(02 Aug 2023, 6:53 pm)mb134 wrote Ultimately, we've watched countless irrelevant brands be introduced over the past few years (particularly under previous management) and look at where the company is now. Given Stagecoach are offering decent service levels on a few of these routes, and that some are only surviving with subsidy, it wouldn't surprise me to see at least some of these needing another rebrand relatively soon. At that point, and with how many other ridiculous brands (Sunderland District anyone?) have died a very quick death, surely actually using the corporate livery starts to make sense?

Worth a mention that Stagecoach’s offering actually matches Go North East’s (half hourly to Forest Hall, two buses an hour to Cramlington), and their evening journeys are also going to be supported with subsidy from Nexus.

I don’t think Stagecoach have the upper hand that everyone seems to think. If anything, their efforts feel fairly rushed and likely to be in response to Go North East serving West Farm Avenue.


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Our buses will be easy to identify by their distinctive purple colour, unless a blue Coaster covers, or a red Corporate, or a silver Cobalt….

(02 Aug 2023, 4:41 pm)Ambassador wrote As tenuous branding links go...this is up there

(02 Aug 2023, 6:16 pm)Andreos1 wrote Glad it's not just me. 
Genuinely wondering what North Tyneside has to do with Stephenson's Rocket.
I'm assuming it's that, and not the Dunston Rocket.

I'm not sure why it matters, when I think all three of us are well and truly in the 'branding doesn't work' camp?!

Your average punter isn't going to blink if it's called Trump's Rocket, so they're not going to go out of their way to try and prove that Stephenson's Rocket has nothing to do with North Tyneside.

One thing I have noticed is that they have on the timetables the Ex-Orbits as well as Purple Solo's with the rockets branding.

Didn't realise they were doing this one too?

https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/services/GNE/553

Not to mention Percy Main now has the 1 Whitley Bay-Metro. Plus 7 new routes. I can see some drivers definitely getting lost, not to mention if they even have enough drivers for all the routes.

I can't see the 352, 354 and 355 lasting long term. Going off the current network, I can see something like the following happening taking into account interworking patterns & driver hours...........

Go North East - subject to keeping 335 & 351 tenders
- NEW 352 - Current 352 route Cramlington to Killingworth, then 359 route to Whitley Bay. 359 withdrawn.

- 353 - Same but every 30 mins North Shields to Killingworth then hourly to Cramlington.

- Current 352, 354, 355 withdrawn

Interworking pattern 1 (not calculated)
- 353 Cramlington > North Shields > Killingworth
- 335 Killingworth > Hadrian Park > Killingworth
- 353 Killingworth > North Shields > Cramlington

Interworking pattern 2 (not calculated)
- 352 > 351 > 351 > 352

Stagecoach:
- X63 - Current Killingworth loop then from Southgate, as per current 54 or in old money, 356 to Newcastle.

Arriva:
- X7 & X8 - All stops served via Matthews Bank.

(02 Aug 2023, 9:36 pm)L469 YVK wrote I can't see the 352, 354 and 355 lasting long term. Going off the current network, I can see something like the following happening taking into account interworking patterns & driver hours...........

Go North East - subject to keeping 335 & 351 tenders
- NEW 352 - Current 352 route Cramlington to Killingworth, then 359 route to Whitley Bay. 359 withdrawn.

- 353 - Same but every 30 mins North Shields to Killingworth then hourly to Cramlington.

- Current 352, 354, 355 withdrawn

Interworking pattern 1 (not calculated)
- 353 Cramlington > North Shields > Killingworth
- 335 Killingworth > Hadrian Park > Killingworth
- 353 Killingworth > North Shields > Cramlington

Interworking pattern 2 (not calculated)
- 352 > 351 > 351 > 352

Stagecoach:
- X63 - Current Killingworth loop then from Southgate, as per current 54 or in old money, 356 to Newcastle.

Arriva:
- X7 & X8 - All stops served via Matthews Bank.

They don't start for a month, and you're already pulling them to shreds!

I'm in no way a fan of the way buses are ranz but credit where credit is due. An operator has made a commitment to try and run their own network, somewhere that would have been otherwise abandoned by the incumbent.

How about we see how it pans out, before we resort to fantasy booking?

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(02 Aug 2023, 7:12 pm)Storx wrote Let's be honest it's questionable what the motive behind these are, as imo it's a bit of a PR stunt more than anything.

I don't see how they can possibly see the 352 and 354 as viable services yet services like 17, 19 and 81 aren't viable services yet the last 3 are arguably busier and cover similar areas aswell.

Not to mention there were routes with changes every other week and that was pre all this mess, and I won't let him live down the absolute shambles of the X4 doing it.

It's just a matter of time before the 37 and 38 succeed and GNE come out with the well we tried, aren't we nice, nonsense.

I believe it's what they call maximising commercial development opportunities. If there is any motive, it is simply to increase the company's foothold in and beyond metropolitan North Tyneside. I can't imagine there is a conspiracy behind it. What alternatives do you see?

(02 Aug 2023, 9:36 pm)L469 YVK wrote I can't see the 352, 354 and 355 lasting long term. Going off the current network, I can see something like the following happening taking into account interworking patterns & driver hours...........

Go North East - subject to keeping 335 & 351 tenders
- NEW 352 - Current 352 route Cramlington to Killingworth, then 359 route to Whitley Bay. 359 withdrawn.

- 353 - Same but every 30 mins North Shields to Killingworth then hourly to Cramlington.

- Current 352, 354, 355 withdrawn

Interworking pattern 1 (not calculated)
- 353 Cramlington > North Shields > Killingworth
- 335 Killingworth > Hadrian Park > Killingworth
- 353 Killingworth > North Shields > Cramlington

Interworking pattern 2 (not calculated)
- 352 > 351 > 351 > 352

Stagecoach:
- X63 - Current Killingworth loop then from Southgate, as per current 54 or in old money, 356 to Newcastle.

Arriva:
- X7 & X8 - All stops served via Matthews Bank.

I can't quite believe you've jumped straight to such hypotheticals when the services as they stand are yet to operate at commercial risk.

(02 Aug 2023, 9:49 pm)Adrian wrote They don't start for a month, and you're already pulling them to shreds!

I'm in no way a fan of the way buses are ranz but credit where credit is due. An operator has made a commitment to try and run their own network, somewhere that would have been otherwise abandoned by the incumbent.

How about we see how it pans out, before we resort to fantasy booking?

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That's a pretty generous heaping of credit onto GNE who themselves virtually abandoned North Tyneside not so long ago (lets hope the orbit rockets fare better than the little coasters did).

(02 Aug 2023, 10:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote That's a pretty generous heaping of credit onto GNE who themselves virtually abandoned North Tyneside not so long ago (lets hope the orbit rockets fare better than the little coasters did).

Should they not bother then? That'd have been their easiest and zero risk option.

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(02 Aug 2023, 3:45 pm)deanmachine wrote Same colour as the Peterlee Purples.

There’s 9 Peterlee Purples but I think the network PVR is 6? So I’m guessing 3 going to North Tyne Rocket then. 
But I’m previously mentioned that isn’t much solo cover at Deptford, the 33 appears to have used a Versa and a B9 today.

(02 Aug 2023, 11:02 pm)Adrian wrote Should they not bother then? That'd have been their easiest and zero risk option.

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My point was more that it is a bit disingenuous to praise GNE and criticise ANE, when GNE did pretty much the same thing in Wallsend.  Don't think that has any implications for whether or not they should be doing the rockets. Presumably they can see a potential return and hope it works out for them (though like others I suspect we will see the familiar slashing within the year).

(02 Aug 2023, 10:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote That's a pretty generous heaping of credit onto GNE who themselves virtually abandoned North Tyneside not so long ago (lets hope the orbit rockets fare better than the little coasters did).

You're comparing apples with oranges. With the extent to which Arriva were previously present, and with the Metro covering the coast, there was never enough market share - as the market stood at the time (historical context) - for Go North East to develop much of a network, and so they arguably cut their losses and concentrated resources elsewhere. 

Now that the market dynamic has undergone a paradigm shift, and Arriva have *actually* abandoned their network and customer base, Go North East have capitalised on the opportunity to gain a foothold. Quite simple.

(02 Aug 2023, 11:11 pm)R852 PRG wrote You're comparing apples with oranges. With the extent to which Arriva were previously present, and with the Metro covering the coast, there was never enough market share - as the market stood at the time (historical context) - for Go North East to develop much of a network, and so they arguably cut their losses and concentrated resources elsewhere. 

Now that the market dynamic has undergone a paradigm shift, and Arriva have *actually* abandoned their network and customer base, Go North East have capitalised on the opportunity to gain a foothold. Quite simple.

GNE concentrated resources elsewhere while ANE abandoned their network and customer base - no bias at all here!

And of course, its nonsense to say there was never enough market share.  The Coastline operation used to be pretty extensive across the borough and was cut back and back over time.

My first school (Stephenson Memorial First School in Howdon) used the Stephenson Rocket for its logo, and had a mock replica of one built by my dad on display in the School Hall for a good number of years before it was moved up to the North Tyneside Railway Musuem. Since it was mainly made out from Plywood, I suspect it's long gone considering it was constructed in the late 80s.

(02 Aug 2023, 11:26 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote GNE concentrated resources elsewhere while ANE abandoned their network and customer base - no bias at all here!

And of course, its nonsense to say there was never enough market share.  The Coastline operation used to be pretty extensive across the borough and was cut back and back over time.

Rather rich that you're suggesting I'm biased - in making an objective assessment situated in historical context - whilst you simultaneously perpetuate some visceral narrative of abandonment in an oversaturated market.  

As for the progressive reduction of the Coastline operation, I don't think you're accounting for the optimisation offered through the streamlining of network design. But, of course, if that doesn't support the view you're trying to peddle, I understand your omission. Would love to know how much money that Coastline operation haemorrhaged back in the day.

All this talk about the North Tynesidr Rockets reminds me of my time in Pyongyang where the local bus service was branded 'The Great and Glorious Rocket for National Exploration and Expansion Service 55B'.

Now there's a successful brand name!!

(03 Aug 2023, 6:10 am)Snappy; rolls off the tongue easily.  I like it!Clifton Hignett III wrote All this talk about the North Tynesidr Rockets reminds me of my time in Pyongyang where the local bus service was branded 'The Great and Glorious Rocket for National Exploration and Expansion Service 55B'.

Now there's a successful brand name!!

Snappy; rolls off the tongue easily.  I like it!

(02 Aug 2023, 11:53 pm)R852 PRG wrote Rather rich that you're suggesting I'm biased - in making an objective assessment situated in historical context - whilst you simultaneously perpetuate some visceral narrative of abandonment in an oversaturated market.  

As for the progressive reduction of the Coastline operation, I don't think you're accounting for the optimisation offered through the streamlining of network design. But, of course, if that doesn't support the view you're trying to peddle, I understand your omission. Would love to know how much money that Coastline operation haemorrhaged back in the day.

I'd you honestly think that there was a progressive reduction of the Coastline services then you are biased. 

Unless it means tax payer having to fund a number of services to cover said network coverage and the highest car usage in the North East as buses are unusable. 

I know I'm the worst person to say this but there's only one person with an agenda here and it's the one who's defending GNE at every level. 

What's the excuse for them leaving half of Birtley without a bus service?

(03 Aug 2023, 7:04 am)Storx wrote I'd you honestly think that there was a progressive reduction of the Coastline services then you are biased. 

Unless it means tax payer having to fund a number of services to cover said network coverage and the highest car usage in the North East as buses are unusable. 

I know I'm the worst person to say this but there's only one person with an agenda here and it's the one who's defending GNE at every level. 

What's the excuse for them leaving half of Birtley without a bus service?

If you're suggesting I have some sort of agenda in favour of Go North East, you're mistaken. I could sit and absolutely tear them to pieces if I so desired. On this matter, however, I think they should be commended. 
Seemingly nobody can identify their strategy of network reconstruction in North Tyneside. 

As for "leaving half of Birtley without a bus service", don't talk wet. It's not as if, when the 82 was tendered out, those areas went without a bus service. Besides, no residential address in Birtley was ever more than a five minute walk from a stop served by the 21.

(03 Aug 2023, 7:25 am)R852 PRG wrote If you're suggesting I have some sort of agenda in favour of Go North East, you're mistaken. I could sit and absolutely tear them to pieces if I so desired. On this matter, however, I think they should be commended. 
Seemingly nobody can identify their strategy of network reconstruction in North Tyneside. 

As for "leaving half of Birtley without a bus service", don't talk wet. It's not as if, when the 82 was tendered out, those areas went without a bus service. Besides, no residential address in Birtley was ever more than a five minute walk from a stop served by the 21.

The tax payer should not be paying for bus services so the big boys can pay their shareholders. 

It's a completely broken system. Half of Birtley was 100% left without a bus service and it's much further than 5 minutes from Portobello to Durham Road down a massive bank aswell. 

The 25 isn't commercial either. 

North Tyneside needs to be franchised and completely redone with Metro integration in mind. People in some areas, ie. where the 351 goes, will cry that they don't have a direct bus anymore but their clearly not using it anyway so arguably a 30 minute service to somewhere like Northumberland Park with proper integration would provide a proper service. 

There's loads of areas which are the same Backworth being another as the 54 clearly doesn't work either just to pick one out. From there duplication can be removed there's still no need for 6 buses from Blyth to Whitley Bay for example but it's all down to well I'm not dropping and nor am I problem. 3 BPH is more than enough along there, if not too much if you interworked it with the X7. 

The whole area just needs someone to sit down and start again rather than botching, botching and botching. It's basically still the deregulation network with botches everywhere and it's broken.

(03 Aug 2023, 7:25 am)R852 PRG wrote If you're suggesting I have some sort of agenda in favour of Go North East, you're mistaken. I could sit and absolutely tear them to pieces if I so desired. On this matter, however, I think they should be commended. 
Seemingly nobody can identify their strategy of network reconstruction in North Tyneside. 

As for "leaving half of Birtley without a bus service", don't talk wet. It's not as if, when the 82 was tendered out, those areas went without a bus service. Besides, no residential address in Birtley was ever more than a five minute walk from a stop served by the 21. 

A quick check on Google maps will blow that claim out of the water. 
Just picked Laxford (located roughly halfway between where the 21 and 82 stop) to York Road.

Good luck trying to do that in 5mins.

There are many other examples, particularly on the hilly eastern side of Birtley well over 5mins from the 21.

(03 Aug 2023, 7:47 am)Storx wrote The tax payer should not be paying for bus services so the big boys can pay their shareholders. 

It's a completely broken system. Half of Birtley was 100% left without a bus service and it's much further than 5 minutes from Portobello to Durham Road down a massive bank aswell. 

The 25 isn't commercial either. 

North Tyneside needs to be franchised and completely redone with Metro integration in mind. People in some areas, ie. where the 351 goes, will cry that they don't have a direct bus anymore but their clearly not using it anyway so arguably a 30 minute service to somewhere like Northumberland Park with proper integration would provide a proper service. 

There's loads of areas which are the same Backworth being another as the 54 clearly doesn't work either just to pick one out. From there duplication can be removed there's still no need for 6 buses from Blyth to Whitley Bay for example but it's all down to well I'm not dropping and nor am I problem. 3 BPH is more than enough along there, if not too much if you interworked it with the X7. 

The whole area just needs someone to sit down and start again rather than botching, botching and botching. It's basically still the deregulation network with botches everywhere and it's broken.

Now, I agree with the overwhelming majority of the points you make here. But there is no easy answer. I expect that franchising will enter local transport discourse properly from September onward, but the enhanced partnership model is probably better for the region.

If the wider network was situated within one large metropolitan area, fair enough, but that's not the case. While a franchising model could be applied to North Tyneside, I think it's probably the only area of the north east in which it would be feasible for the longer term. It's the only subsidiary metropolitan area with sufficiently busy trunk routes which could support the less commercially viable stuff. 

NB. I think most locals would classify Barley Mow and Portobello as their own places, perhaps at best subsidiaries of Birtley proper.

(03 Aug 2023, 7:47 am)Storx wrote The tax payer should not be paying for bus services so the big boys can pay their shareholders. 

It's a completely broken system. Half of Birtley was 100% left without a bus service and it's much further than 5 minutes from Portobello to Durham Road down a massive bank aswell. 

The 25 isn't commercial either. 

North Tyneside needs to be franchised and completely redone with Metro integration in mind. People in some areas, ie. where the 351 goes, will cry that they don't have a direct bus anymore but their clearly not using it anyway so arguably a 30 minute service to somewhere like Northumberland Park with proper integration would provide a proper service. 

There's loads of areas which are the same Backworth being another as the 54 clearly doesn't work either just to pick one out. From there duplication can be removed there's still no need for 6 buses from Blyth to Whitley Bay for example but it's all down to well I'm not dropping and nor am I problem. 3 BPH is more than enough along there, if not too much if you interworked it with the X7. 

The whole area just needs someone to sit down and start again rather than botching, botching and botching. It's basically still the deregulation network with botches everywhere and it's broken.

The current (since October 1986) arrangements are that operators chose what services they believe that they can run commercially (i.e make a profit, just like food retailers, dispensing chemists etc. do), and the onus is on the Local Authority to fill any gaps in provision that it deems necessary. That's how it is.

So nowhere should be left unserved (I don't think any part of Birtley is) provided that the Local Authority deem that a service is necessary.  

Bus services in many parts of North Tyneside have been heavily dependent on ENCTS passengers for many years (a generally older population) but these passengers have not returned in the same volume post covid - I've read that ENCTS passengers are only about 70% of pre covid numbers. No surprise then that some bus services in North Tyneside are a financial disaster......

I recall that service 19 was heavily subsidised by Cobalt (the only real reason for its existence being to serve Cobalt) but I think that subsidy disappeared long ago -  there always seem to be a lot of empty buildings in Cobalt, so I'm not surprised that the 19 isn't commercial.

(03 Aug 2023, 8:02 am)R852 PRG wrote Now, I agree with the overwhelming majority of the points you make here. But there is no easy answer. I expect that franchising will enter local transport discourse properly from September onward, but the enhanced partnership model is probably better for the region.

If the wider network was situated within one large metropolitan area, fair enough, but that's not the case. While a franchising model could be applied to North Tyneside, I think it's probably the only area of the north east in which it would be feasible for the longer term. It's the only subsidiary metropolitan area with sufficiently busy trunk routes which could support the less commercially viable stuff. 

NB. I think most locals would classify Barley Mow and Portobello as their own places, perhaps at best subsidiaries of Birtley proper.

Honestly, can't disagree to be fair. It needs radical change though as it's been broken for well over 20 year. Agree about partnerships though as sadly I have as little hope with Nexus or our local councillers at the reign aswell.

Mind I do think South Tyneside is in a similar state in areas aswell. We badly need better bus / Metro connection though rather than treating them like competition as Car vs Bus vs Metro only one will win.

(03 Aug 2023, 8:15 am)busmanT wrote The current (since October 1986) arrangements are that operators chose what services they believe that they can run commercially (i.e make a profit, just like food retailers, dispensing chemists etc. do), and the onus is on the Local Authority to fill any gaps in provision that it deems necessary. That's how it is.

So nowhere should be left unserved (I don't think any part of Birtley is) provided that the Local Authority deem that a service is necessary.  

Bus services in many parts of North Tyneside have been heavily dependent on ENCTS passengers for many years (a generally older population) but these passengers have not returned in the same volume post covid - I've read that ENCTS passengers are only about 70% of pre covid numbers. No surprise then that some bus services in North Tyneside are a financial disaster......

I recall that service 19 was heavily subsidised by Cobalt (the only real reason for its existence being to serve Cobalt) but I think that subsidy disappeared long ago -  there always seem to be a lot of empty buildings in Cobalt, so I'm not surprised that the 19 isn't commercial.

Aye no arguments about that, isn't the ENCTS payments still the same as they are pre Covid currently, ie they haven't dropped how much they're paid to keep the services running as a de-facto subsidy? I know it's what the big problem is down in Co. Durham and Tees Valley now, not sure if it's already been done up here though.

(03 Aug 2023, 7:47 am)Storx wrote North Tyneside needs to be franchised and completely redone with Metro integration in mind. People in some areas, ie. where the 351 goes, will cry that they don't have a direct bus anymore but their clearly not using it anyway so arguably a 30 minute service to somewhere like Northumberland Park with proper integration would provide a proper service. 

The problem with the likes of East Benton Rise & Holystone Park is that residents will likely have a top of the range PCP leased car sat on the drive.....and heaven forbid getting the bus into Newcastle (or home if not out too late) on a night out. They'll just book an Uber, Blueline or Nearby on the app.

Think we've covered the economic wealth spread in North Tyneside many times before. There's a reason why Stagecoach's Newcastle network is fairly stable....no offence intended of course!

(03 Aug 2023, 12:55 pm)L469 YVK wrote The problem with the likes of East Benton Rise & Holystone Park is that residents will likely have a top of the range PCP leased car sat on the drive.....and heaven forbid getting the bus into Newcastle (or home if not out too late) on a night out. They'll just book an Uber, Blueline or Nearby on the app.

Think we've covered the economic wealth spread in North Tyneside many times before. There's a reason why Stagecoach's Newcastle network is fairly stable....no offence intended of course!

The thing is these are the exact areas I'm talking about, if they're not using the bus to Newcastle then don't provide it.

For example you could have stuff like:

318: Every 30 Minutes, Killingworth to Wallsend
Killingworth - Quorum - Longbenton - Four Lane Ends (Change here for trains to Newcastle) - Benton Park View - Mullen Road - Kings Road North - Selby Gardens - Wallsend (via A186) (change here for trains to Newcastle / North Shields)

319: Every 30 Minutes, Killingworth to Wallsend
Killingworth - Forest Hall - Benton ASDA - Wiltshire Drive - Wallsend (via A186) (change here for trains to Newcastle / North Shields)

320 (41/41A): Every 30 Minutes, Wallsend to Hadrian Park
Wallsend - West Street - Selby Gardens - Battle Hill - Hadrian Park

51: Every 30 Minutes, Northumberland Park - Whitley Bay
Northumberland Park (Change here for trains to Newcastle) - Shiremoor - Earsdon - Beaumont Park - Briardene - Whitley Bay (Change here for trains to Tynemouth)

53: Every 30 Minutes, Cramlington to North Shields
Cramlington - Killingworth - Forest Hall - Palmersville (Change here for trains to Newcastle / Whitley Bay) - Holystone - Holystone Park - Northumberland Park (Change here for trains to Whitley Bay / Newcastle) - Shiremoor - North Shields (Change here for trains to Whitley Bay / Newcastle)

54: Replaced by the 359 every 30 minutes and serve Northumberland Park.

All with guaranteed connections from the Metro at Four Lane Ends, Northumberland Park and Palmersville (the bus waits if the Metro is slightly late). There's no need for every bus to go to Newcastle. People will winge but they need to just say: So? You don't use it... Other than the Gosforth to Killingworth link, everything is replaced what the services are doing which are coming in albeit some with a change onto Metro.