(06 Jul 2021, 9:28 pm)L469 YVK wrote Stagecoach will always make money due to the demographic of most of their routes (i.e mainly City Centre).


Martijn's reasoning behind the original pre-pandemic investment and subsequent refreshes (funded by a different budget) make sense. Both will create growth.

Arriva choosing to run deckers in limp mode chasing each other through Cramlington or a tarted up B7TL will only provide a short term gain. In fact, Arriva in Blyth & Ashington will be in serious trouble if they don't improve their offering and adapt to customer expectations before BTR goes live.

Go North East bus drivers are moaning about wages which could potentially lead to strikes but you turn it onto Arriva as usual.

As a customer, I'd rather have a bus company with 10 year old totally adequate buses on, which turns up, than a bus company with brand new buses sitting in a depot somewhere because their drivers are on strike.

(06 Jul 2021, 9:55 am)Andreos1 wrote Really?
Even when you add in the associated design costs (Stenning needs to make a living too - even if the designs are copied and pasted from elsewhere or created using the automatic livery generator), fuel/plus drivers to get to and from Blackburn, raw materials and labour costs... That's just off the top of my head. 
Sure there will be other numbers which need to be accounted for too.

Does make you wonder how much extra an hour per employee that budget could have funded - as you say when you add up design consultancy, up anddown to Blackburn, then even just the presumably low cost of the vinyls to change swoop into stripe - it is not going to be an insignificant sum (after all when people have suggested painting a bus for X I am sure Martijn has talked about the prohibitive cost of doing so for one vehicle never mind a fleet of hundreds).  Have no idea though whether that would still transalte to just a few pence an hour per employee when it was numbercrunched.  Transparency about that with the workforce might help to alleviate some of the tensions, if indeed the rebranding and repainting obesession is small fry in terms of potential money to save.

Worth noting as well that while in that video Martijn categorically states Go North East is "not making a profit" and that "none of the bus industry is making a profit yet", the preliminary year end results for Stagecoach (UK Bus operations) for 2020-21 suggests the latter statement is untrue.  Page 10 of this report for anyone interested makes it clear that while massively reduced, the UK Bus division of Stagecoach actually made over £24 million operating profit in the year to May 2021.  While some of this appears to be related to the Government grant funding, it is still being reported (and therefore presumably retained) as profit, contributing to share values etc.

On the flip side, a 2% payrise for any organisation (except maybe Zoom and other IT/tech companies!) in the current climate is pretty generous.  The salaries quoted for drivers are comparable to the lower paid end of the NHS workforce, including some nurses - all of whome have likewise been working pretty hard through the pandemic - and are likely being rewarded with 1% rise.  Not to mention the rest of the public sector...

(06 Jul 2021, 9:28 pm)L469 YVK wrote Arriva choosing to run deckers in limp mode chasing each other through Cramlington or a tarted up B7TL will only provide a short term gain. In fact, Arriva in Blyth & Ashington will be in serious trouble if they don't improve their offering and adapt to customer expectations before BTR goes live.

Not sure what the relevance of this is in a GNE pay thread like.

I highly doubt they will be in "serious trouble" - as has been pointed out more times than I can remember, there are other passenger flows that those depots serve other than to Newcastle (and even then, folk will still use the bus given the somewhat limited nature of the train for some areas). The line, to me, is very much targeting car users over bus passengers. 

You also seem to have an issue with "tarted up" B7s - yet never seen to have a response when it's pointed out that companies such as Transdev are "tarting up" similarly aged B7s. They also aren't really "choosing" to do so, the hand is somewhat forced by the lack of cash from DB.

(06 Jul 2021, 9:49 pm)Storx wrote Go North East bus drivers are moaning about wages which could potentially lead to strikes but you turn it onto Arriva as usual.

As a customer, I'd rather have a bus company with 10 year old totally adequate buses on, which turns up, than a bus company with brand new buses sitting in a depot somewhere because their drivers are on strike.

Just for transparency and balance, Arriva’s pay ballot results were on 1 July and 81% of their drivers rejected the 1.5% pay deal offer. 87% have said they’d be willing to strike over this.

Stagecoach have also rejected their pay offer of a 1% pay rise (although they had a 2% payrise last year as part of a two-year deal, so is actually 3% between the two years).

So unfortunately Arriva’s 10 year old bus mightn’t turn up either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(06 Jul 2021, 1:48 pm)Storx wrote There's no excuse not paying above the living wage.

Completely agree with this, but I had thought Go-Ahead voluntarily committed to paying the Living Wage years ago? I can find something from 2016 about it, but also this blog post from 2019: https://www.go-ahead.com/media/blog/why-...odie-brian

(07 Jul 2021, 8:16 am)Adrian wrote Completely agree with this, but I had thought Go-Ahead voluntarily committed to paying the Living Wage years ago? I can find something from 2016 about it, but also this blog post from 2019: https://www.go-ahead.com/media/blog/why-...odie-brian

Yeah they did by the looks of it but just over. But since they didn't have any rise in 2020 it's now gone under slightly and the 2% won't cover it. It's where the 4% is coming from by the looks of it.

Using a 37.5 hourly week as it's either 37/38 hours depending on the company and the base rate of £18,300

2019 - Hourly Rate: £9.38 / Living Wage: £9.30
2020 - Hourly Rate: £9.38 / Living Wage: £9.50
2021 - Hourly Rate: £9.57 (+2%) / Living Wage: N/A  but likely to be roughly £9.70 at least (it usually goes up 20-30p)

With a 4% increase it would £9.76 an hour which would likely cover it.

To put it in context you get £9.55 to work in Tesco and ones a hell of a lot easier than the other - obviously there's no wage increases over the years like you get with buses though to make it balanced.

As Dan has said above Arriva are obviously having the same problems but no surprise they're having problems again (especially with Durham already being on strike over wages very recently) and the different wages between depots which is asking for trouble anyway.

Also JP6004 the £17,500 is an awful wage must be right on minimum wage I guess? Otherwise it's just ever slightly over using the same 37.5 hours that's £8.97 / week which is well under the living wage.

(07 Jul 2021, 10:05 am)Storx wrote Yeah they did by the looks of it but just over. But since they didn't have any rise in 2020 it's now gone under slightly and the 2% won't cover it. It's where the 4% is coming from by the looks of it.

Using a 37.5 hourly week as it's either 37/38 hours depending on the company and the base rate of £18,300

2019 - Hourly Rate: £9.38 / Living Wage: £9.30
2020 - Hourly Rate: £9.38 / Living Wage: £9.50
2021 - Hourly Rate: £9.57 (+2%) / Living Wage: N/A  but likely to be roughly £9.70 at least (it usually goes up 20-30p)

With a 4% increase it would £9.76 an hour which would likely cover it.

To put it in context you get £9.55 to work in Tesco and ones a hell of a lot easier than the other - obviously there's no wage increases over the years like you get with buses though to make it balanced.

As Dan has said above Arriva are obviously having the same problems but no surprise they're having problems again (especially with Durham already being on strike over wages very recently) and the different wages between depots which is asking for trouble anyway.

Also JP6004 the £17,500 is an awful wage must be right on minimum wage I guess? Otherwise it's just ever slightly over using the same 37.5 hours that's £8.97 / week which is well under the living wage.

Yea its not much, after a few months and you gain more experience, your grade increases to just over £19k. I remember when I first started I was on £11,800. That was many years ago. That was 37 hour week

(07 Jul 2021, 10:19 am)JP6004 wrote Yea its not much, after a few months and you gain more experience, your grade increases to just over £19k. I remember when I first started I was on £11,800. That was many years ago. That was 37 hour week

My first job (part time) was £2.52 an hour. Well before minimum wage was even a thing.
Although I had ambition and didn't see myself doing that on a full-time basis, the low wages ensured I didn't become too comfortable or complacent and I moved on to something else (which paid more) a few years later.

(07 Jul 2021, 10:43 am)Andreos1 wrote My first job (part time) was £2.52 an hour. Well before minimum wage was even a thing.
Although I had ambition and didn't see myself doing that on a full-time basis, the low wages ensured I didn't become too comfortable or complacent and I moved on to something else (which paid more) a few years later.

To be fair I could of easily found higher paid job but I was comfortable, that's why I'm still here 14yrs later! My first job was £3.20ph when I was 18. I left because I refused to work Christmas Day again!

(07 Jul 2021, 10:52 am)JP6004 wrote To be fair I could of easily found higher paid job but I was comfortable, that's why I'm still here 14yrs later! My first job was £3.20ph when I was 18. I left because I refused to work Christmas Day again!

I think there will be drivers like that, who have a similar mindset. 
There will be others who don't think like that too mind and that's probably where the issue lies.

It's a hard one this in parts...

Hard to justify a payrise when you've been effectively nationalised for the past year.

Increase in labour costs naturally drives up other costs which is then passed onto Customers who in parts are already on the receiving end of some fairly large fares and will look at other options where they can.

Customer habits are changing and income streams with them. You have to invest (paint jobs, £1 fare promo, commercial tie ups with English Heritage etc etc) to attract Customers otherwise numbers dwindle to those who uses buses out of 'no choice' and then you're off down the job centre.

I'm not being funny, but a pay rise of 2% equates to around an extra £8 a week assuming you're earning £20k a year.

I'd be embarrassed to go on strike or quit over that.

(07 Jul 2021, 10:05 am)Storx wrote To put it in context you get £9.55 to work in Tesco and ones a hell of a lot easier than the other - obviously there's no wage increases over the years like you get with buses though to make it balanced.

I'd imagine places like Tesco, while perhaps not having length of service increases, will constantly have supervisory roles etc coming up that will offer a higher rate of pay. For what it's worth, the people I knew at uni who worked there part time said the wages were great, as were the perks that came with the job (and there were some enhanced pay rates, Sundays/BHs spring to mind). Might have changed in the last year or so since they left, but I can't imagine by very much. 

For my current job, I got a 2.5% increase this April as well as a performance based increase last September, but in a company that's done relatively well during the pandemic. I can see why a 4% raise in a company/industry that hasn't faired as well could be problematic.

I know I'm probably going to get shit for saying this, but... Bus drivers have had it easy over the pandemic compared to a lot of other industries.

They've been some of the most protected from the virus, working completely behind screens, not taking cash etc. People working in the likes of Tesco don't have that luxury, even those working on checkouts aren't really that enclosed, the screens are just there to give the illusion of safety

Their industry has been propped up by the government while others have had very little support so they haven't had to worry about losing their job. And as buses were still running, a lot of drivers didn't even have to deal with a 20% drop in earnings from furlough.

(07 Jul 2021, 12:02 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I know I'm probably going to get shit for saying this, but... Bus drivers have had it easy over the pandemic compared to a lot of other industries.

They've been some of the most protected from the virus, working completely behind screens, not taking cash etc. People working in the likes of Tesco don't have that luxury, even those working on checkouts aren't really that enclosed, the screens are just there to give the illusion of safety

Their industry has been propped up by the government while others have had very little support so they haven't had to worry about losing their job. And as buses were still running, a lot of drivers didn't even have to deal with a 20% drop in earnings from furlough.

I'm not sure why you insist on turning it into a race to the bottom, workers vs workers and so on, but this really has nothing to do with the thread. You're repeating points that you've made previously in the Coronavirus thread.

(07 Jul 2021, 12:13 pm)Adrian wrote I'm not sure why you insist on turning it into a race to the bottom, workers vs workers and so on, but this really has nothing to do with the thread. You're repeating points that you've made previously in the Coronavirus thread.

If we're comparing the pay to the likes of Tesco, then it's also fair to compare the working conditions to the likes of Tesco, isn't it?

(07 Jul 2021, 12:17 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If we're comparing the pay to the likes of Tesco, then it's also fair to compare the working conditions to the likes of Tesco, isn't it?

No, you're being disingenuous now. You're using it as another opportunity to take a swipe at bus drivers, repeating the ridiculous statements you've already made elsewhere.

It's not the purpose of the thread.

If you want to discuss further, you can DM me.

(07 Jul 2021, 4:42 am)Dan wrote Just for transparency and balance, Arriva’s pay ballot results were on 1 July and 81% of their drivers rejected the 1.5% pay deal offer. 87% have said they’d be willing to strike over this.

Stagecoach have also rejected their pay offer of a 1% pay rise (although they had a 2% payrise last year as part of a two-year deal, so is actually 3% between the two years).

So unfortunately Arriva’s 10 year old bus mightn’t turn up either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just out of curiosity, if you're able to share the info, how long does it take a GNE driver to reach top rate?  I did read a comment somewhere else that suggested a year 4 GNE driver was still on less than £10 per hour.  Over £1 an hour less than a year 2 stagecoach driver.  I found that pretty eye opening tbh.

(07 Jul 2021, 11:08 am)Ambassador wrote It's a hard one this in parts...

Hard to justify a payrise when you've been effectively nationalised for the past year.

Increase in labour costs naturally drives up other costs which is then passed onto Customers who in parts are already on the receiving end of some fairly large fares and will look at other options where they can.

Customer habits are changing and income streams with them. You have to invest (paint jobs, £1 fare promo, commercial tie ups with English Heritage etc etc) to attract Customers otherwise numbers dwindle to those who uses buses out of 'no choice' and then you're off down the job centre.

But worth noting that the board are working towards payment of a dividend in the 2021 calendar year, so you can't have it both ways: https://www.go-ahead.com/download_file/force/1374/228

Increase in labour costs do of course drive up other costs, but I'd hope you'd also acknowledge the benefits to the wider economy. If workers' pay falls behind inflation, then they've got less money to spend in the economy, meaning the retail, hospitality and service industries start to suffer. If workers have more spare cash in their pocket, they'll happily throw it at the local economy, holidays, days out and so on.

Reading through this thread and from personal experience one thing is apparent, whilst the article in question is about GNE, the issue is industry wide and therefore the pay and conditions in the industry as a whole are in need of improvements to attract new staff and retain current staff.

I left Arriva to work at GNE. GNE paid more and it was closer to home plus minimum hours were higher. I had pay rises every year except last year. I recently had to change my contract to term time only (personal reasons) and as such had to take a pay cut (approx £20 per week) and now I'm on new starter rate (which for those interested is curreny £9.0442 per hour). Before being a bus driver I qualified as a teacher so essentially all that was chucked away to drive buses and coaches.

Alot of drivers seem to leave to drive HGVs where the money is (apparently) considerably more, no public to give you grief and no cash handling or ticket machines. I love driving but this has no appeal to me.

(07 Jul 2021, 11:08 am)Ambassador wrote Customer habits are changing and income streams with them. You have to invest (paint jobs, £1 fare promo, commercial tie ups with English Heritage etc etc) to attract Customers otherwise numbers dwindle to those who uses buses out of 'no choice' and then you're off down the job centre.

And that's where GNE would struggle if they took the same approach as Arriva and didn't invest or at least make a half decent attempt in the current climate.

Totally understand the wage debate. Drivers have their thoughts and so do GNE/GAG but at the end of the day, the "pot" used to improve customer offerings is aimed to help grow the company and potentially give the drivers the pay that they deserve going forward.

---

(07 Jul 2021, 1:59 am)mb134 wrote The line, to me, is very much targeting car users over bus passengers. 

Car users?

- X20 Ashington to Newcastle
- X21 Newbiggin to Newcastle (35 to Ashington then train)
- X21 Bedlington Station to Newcastle
- X8 Cowpen / Bebside to Newcastle
- X10/X11 Newsham to Newcastle
- X7 Double Row & Top end of Delaval to Newcastle
- X7 Seghill to Newcastle

(07 Jul 2021, 2:51 pm)L469 YVK wrote Car users?

- X20 Ashington to Newcastle
- X21 Newbiggin to Newcastle (35 to Ashington then train)
- X21 Bedlington Station to Newcastle
- X8 Cowpen / Bebside to Newcastle
- X10/X11 Newsham to Newcastle
- X7 Double Row & Top end of Delaval to Newcastle
- X7 Seghill to Newcastle

Wonder how ANE are still running Morpeth to Newcastle buses, given this logic. 

Realistically you've highlighted 7 passenger flows, discounted any pricing/convenience differences, and forgotten that those services have other purposes. There'll be some passengers moving to the train, sure, but you're making out like every new train line is the end to bus travel.

(07 Jul 2021, 11:55 am)mb134 wrote I'd imagine places like Tesco, while perhaps not having length of service increases, will constantly have supervisory roles etc coming up that will offer a higher rate of pay. For what it's worth, the people I knew at uni who worked there part time said the wages were great, as were the perks that came with the job (and there were some enhanced pay rates, Sundays/BHs spring to mind). Might have changed in the last year or so since they left, but I can't imagine by very much. 

For my current job, I got a 2.5% increase this April as well as a performance based increase last September, but in a company that's done relatively well during the pandemic. I can see why a 4% raise in a company/industry that hasn't faired as well could be problematic.

Aye true like, ah few of my mates worked in them and absolutely hated it mind don't think they minded the wages more managers who didn't have a clue what they're doing.

Yeah your right though in fairness but it's what happens when your below what should be paying for years I guess and it's starting to show in glory. No doubt when one company goes on strike the rest will follow like sheep.

(07 Jul 2021, 2:51 pm)L469 YVK wrote And that's where GNE would struggle if they took the same approach as Arriva and didn't invest or at least make a half decent attempt in the current climate.

Totally understand the wage debate. Drivers have their thoughts and so do GNE/GAG but at the end of the day, the "pot" used to improve customer offerings is aimed to help grow the company and potentially give the drivers the pay that they deserve going forward.

I'm not sure there's really that much to debate really if you can't pay your staff the living wage then you shouldn't be trading it's as simple as that. Not sure why you always defend GNE unless your David Brown (CEO) who paid himself £558,000 last year and £1,269,000 the year before or Eddie Brian who paid himself £320,000 last year as these are the people your defending here not the local staff.

Bus drivers are humans with families who have kids and mortgages to pay, anyone who is saying they shouldn't be paid a proper wage really have their priorities in life wrong imo. It's literally a battle to the bottom and your letting them get away with it while the topdogs at the top are living in mansions and paying thereselves dividends through a pandemic whereas the staff at the bottom potentially are struggling to pay for their house and put food on the table. This applies to all bus companies and is another really which shows why privitisation as it currently is doesn't work at all.

Painting berries on a side of a bus is really irrelevant here.

(07 Jul 2021, 11:45 am)streetdeckfan wrote I'm not being funny, but a pay rise of 2% equates to around an extra £8 a week assuming you're earning £20k a year.

I'd be embarrassed to go on strike or quit over that.

£8 per week may mean little to you but that £32 over a four-week period could feasibly for someone's water-bill, mobile-phone contract or towards some other essential utility bill.

Since £8 per week is obviously nothing to man of such wealth like yourself, would you consider paying £8 per week for using this forum? The proceeds could go to charity or some other good cause.

After all, it would be embarrassing for you not to contribute and complain about that £8 per week charge now wouldn't it?

(07 Jul 2021, 5:56 pm)Clifton Hignett III wrote £8 per week may mean little to you but that £32 over a four-week period could feasibly for someone's water-bill, mobile-phone contract or towards some other essential utility bill.

Since £8 per week is obviously nothing to man of such wealth like yourself, would you consider paying £8 per week for using this forum? The proceeds could go to charity or some other good cause.

After all, it would be embarrassing for you not to contribute and complain about that £8 per week charge now wouldn't it?

If I got £8 worth of value out of it, then sure, but I don't feel like I do.

I don't mean to brag about my extreme wealth, but I spent more than that in bus fares to eat some overpriced and mediocre 'Japanese' food with friends in the Metro last night.

Maybe it's just me, but if I was £32 a month from not being able to pay my bills, then I'd probably look for another job since even a 4% payrise (which is what they're asking for) would only leave me with £32 to spare!

(07 Jul 2021, 6:46 pm)streetdeckfan wrote If I got £8 worth of value out of it, then sure, but I don't feel like I do.

I don't mean to brag about my extreme wealth, but I spent more than that in bus fares to eat some overpriced and mediocre 'Japanese' food with friends in the Metro last night.

Maybe it's just me, but if I was £32 a month from not being able to pay my bills, then I'd probably look for another job since even a 4% payrise (which is what they're asking for) would only leave me with £32 to spare!

You must obtain some value from this forum. As someone has previously expressed their dislike of bus enthusiasts, I find it very strange that you choose to post your thoughts on a forum catered towards bus enthusiasts unless, of course, you are either an enthusiast yourself (as your constant hounding of Martijn Gilbert might suggest) or find something valuable in this very medium.

You are also someone who purportedly uses public transport on a regular basis. Do you not value those who make your journies possible, or should they simply, as you suggest, find other employment because you don't value their contribution to your lifestyle enough for them to ask for a payrise of a measly £8 per week?

(07 Jul 2021, 7:47 pm)Clifton Hignett III wrote You must obtain some value from this forum. As someone has previously expressed their dislike of bus enthusiasts, I find it very strange that you choose to post your thoughts on a forum catered towards bus enthusiasts unless, of course, you are either an enthusiast yourself (as your constant hounding of Martijn Gilbert might suggest) or find something valuable in this very medium.

You are also someone who purportedly uses public transport on a regular basis. Do you not value those who make your journies possible, or should they simply, as you suggest, find other employment because you don't value their contribution to your lifestyle enough for them to ask for a payrise of a measly £8 per week?

I do obtain some value, but not £8 a week. Assuming you're being genuine and not arguing for the sake of it, I'd probably put the value of this forum at around the £5 a month mark. 

At risk of offending some people on here and going off topic, I'll try and explain my dislike of enthusiasts.

In my eyes there are 2 different types of enthusiasts, those who completely obsess over something, and those who have an interest in that thing. It's the first type that I don't like.
Those that spend the whole day camping outside of a bus depot to get the first photo of a new bus or livery.
Or stand outside of the Metrocentre all day and take a blurry photo of every bloody bus.
Or those who have to be the first to ride a new bus.
Or those that can only see the positives in an operator and completely ignore all the negatives, or vice versa.
The same can also be said about the positives and negatives of vehicles.

I could also be described a PC enthusiasts (computers that is, not political correctness, that can sod off) and have exactly the same opinions about those enthusiasts. 

You're also taking what I said way out of context.

What I said was that if you're only £32 a month from going bust, then an extra £32 a month on top of that is going to make sod all difference.
If that was me, I'd either be making cut backs on non-essentials, or looking for a job that earns more money.

Whether or not I think they deserve a pay rise is irrelevant, the fact that they've been offered a 2% pay rise, which considering the state of the industry I was surprised it was that high. 
Like I said before, If I was in their position I would be embarrassed to argue for an extra £8 a week on top of, in my opinion, an already extremely generous offer.

People have different view points of different hobbies. A thing I've learnt over the years is that if it doesn't affect you, then why worry about it. If someone wants to be obsessive about the hobby, let them get on with it. At the end of the day, you do what you want to do with the hobby, but don't force people to view the hobby the same way as you do. Just let them get on with it.

(07 Jul 2021, 8:59 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I do obtain some value, but not £8 a week. Assuming you're being genuine and not arguing for the sake of it, I'd probably put the value of this forum at around the £5 a month mark. 

At risk of offending some people on here and going off topic, I'll try and explain my dislike of enthusiasts.

In my eyes there are 2 different types of enthusiasts, those who completely obsess over something, and those who have an interest in that thing. It's the first type that I don't like.
Those that spend the whole day camping outside of a bus depot to get the first photo of a new bus or livery.
Or stand outside of the Metrocentre all day and take a blurry photo of every bloody bus.
Or those who have to be the first to ride a new bus.
Or those that can only see the positives in an operator and completely ignore all the negatives, or vice versa.
The same can also be said about the positives and negatives of vehicles.

I could also be described a PC enthusiasts (computers that is, not political correctness, that can sod off) and have exactly the same opinions about those enthusiasts. 

You're also taking what I said way out of context.

What I said was that if you're only £32 a month from going bust, then an extra £32 a month on top of that is going to make sod all difference.
If that was me, I'd either be making cut backs on non-essentials, or looking for a job that earns more money.

Whether or not I think they deserve a pay rise is irrelevant, the fact that they've been offered a 2% pay rise, which considering the state of the industry I was surprised it was that high. 
Like I said before, If I was in their position I would be embarrassed to argue for an extra £8 a week on top of, in my opinion, an already extremely generous offer. 

Without being disrespectful towards someone's capabilities or intelligence, would all of those people struggling to get by and needing that £8 a week - be able to achieve a higher paid job?

You have no idea what people's individual circumstances are.
You have no idea what difference a 'small' amount might make to a bus drivers family struggling to get by because of circumstances and what life throws at them.

(07 Jul 2021, 10:01 pm)Rapidsnap wrote People have different view points of different hobbies. A thing I've learnt over the years is that if it doesn't affect you, then why worry about it. If someone wants to be obsessive about the hobby, let them get on with it. At the end of the day, you do what you want to do with the hobby, but don't force people to view the hobby the same way as you do. Just let them get on with it.

Exactly this. There's more than enough room in any hobby to do your own thing.