(11 Mar 2020, 1:07 pm)tyresmoke wrote To put a real world figure in play, in the Tees Valley the combined authority (5 councils) come together and each pass is reimbursed at a rate of 50% of the services’ average fare, though I know due to their size an annual figure is agreed for both Arriva & Stagecoach regardless of how many they accept. At Stagecarriage we were getting not far north of £1 per pass on the X8. NYCC is widely known to pay around 20-25% of the average fare, which I’m guessing on the 81 will be in the region of £2.50? Therefore they’re likely getting somewhere around 50-60p per pass scan on the 81 in North Yorkshire, so you can see that 6 or 7 concessions on the bus does not make money, the hour’s operating cost from Guisborough to Stokesley & back will be nowhere near being covered. Unfortunately that is the reality of operating in rural areas.

To be honest, 50% of the average fare is quite a bit more than I'd expect. I had in my mind that it would be a fixed rate per passenger regardless of the route (probably something around the 50p mark)

(11 Mar 2020, 1:07 pm)tyresmoke wrote To put a real world figure in play, in the Tees Valley the combined authority (5 councils) come together and each pass is reimbursed at a rate of 50% of the services’ average fare, though I know due to their size an annual figure is agreed for both Arriva & Stagecoach regardless of how many they accept. At Stagecarriage we were getting not far north of £1 per pass on the X8. NYCC is widely known to pay around 20-25% of the average fare, which I’m guessing on the 81 will be in the region of £2.50? Therefore they’re likely getting somewhere around 50-60p per pass scan on the 81 in North Yorkshire, so you can see that 6 or 7 concessions on the bus does not make money, the hour’s operating cost from Guisborough to Stokesley & back will be nowhere near being covered. Unfortunately that is the reality of operating in rural areas.

Is that low rate responsible for the high fares in North Yorkshire? Whether it be Darlington to Richmond, Whitby to Scarborough, or even fares on other operators in the county (particularly Coastliner), fares seem much higher there than for equivalent journeys in the North East.

(11 Mar 2020, 1:15 pm)streetdeckfan wrote To be honest, 50% of the average fare is quite a bit more than I'd expect. I had in my mind that it would be a fixed rate per passenger regardless of the route (probably something around the 50p mark)

The reason why single fares are so expensive perhaps? 

(11 Mar 2020, 2:54 pm)BoroLad wrote Is that low rate responsible for the high fares in North Yorkshire? Whether it be Darlington to Richmond, Whitby to Scarborough, or even fares on other operators in the county (particularly Coastliner), fares seem much higher there than for equivalent journeys in the North East.

(11 Mar 2020, 3:06 pm)Andreos1 wrote The reason why single fares are so expensive perhaps? 

As I've said before, I think the reason single fares are so expensive is because they can be. Things are always more expensive when only buying one. People who rely on the bus to get to work are probably buying a day/week ticket, so it's just the people who use the bus as a one off that are affected.
I'm not saying it's right, but if you don't 'overcharge' the one off passengers then you have to increase the price for the regular passengers.

In Bishop Auckland (and I'm sure other places are the same) everyone and their dog seems to have a concessionary pass, whether or not they're using their own pass is another question! (and knowing some of the people, I doubt they are)

It's just as Tyresmoke said, in a nutshell. The reimbursement from the concessionary fare schene, irregardless of local authority is quite frankly scandalous ! I mean just look at a journey like Guisborough to Stokesley and return. Not sure of the actual fare, let's say a fiver and the operator gets back just a fraction of this? A no-brainer why that service was withdrawn but then consider those that are still operating where the revenue potential isn't anything like it should be.
Then, not taking anything away from our genuine concessionary pass users, but just how many of these passes are being fraudulently used ? Drivers have no way of being able to check and revenue inspectors are few and far between; non-existent from Arriva, only marginally better on Stagecoach, can't comment on GNE as I'm not from that area but I've never seen one on the X9/10.
So here is another revenue stream that is been missed and begs that question why so? Are the operators making enough money to dispense with revenue protection?

(11 Mar 2020, 6:53 pm)scanialover wrote It's just as Tyresmoke said, in a nutshell. The reimbursement from the concessionary fare schene, irregardless of local authority is quite frankly scandalous ! I mean just look at a journey like Guisborough to Stokesley and return. Not sure of the actual fare, let's say a fiver and the operator gets back just a fraction of this? A no-brainer why that service was withdrawn but then consider those that are still operating where the revenue potential isn't anything like it should be.
Then, not taking anything away from our genuine concessionary pass users, but just how many of these passes are being fraudulently used ? Drivers have no way of being able to check and revenue inspectors are few and far between; non-existent from Arriva, only marginally better on Stagecoach, can't comment on GNE as I'm not from that area but I've never seen one on the X9/10.
So here is another revenue stream that is been missed and begs that question why so? Are the operators making enough money to dispense with revenue protection?

They do have photos on but they're not the biggest or clearest and one cauliflower perm looks much like the next.

Where do our drivers get the time to check every pass? For sure operator issued tickets carry some form of revenue check but the concessionary passes, even with photographs are open to fraud, as I said. And then what happens where a driver is presented with a wrong one? Haven't they got enough to do without challenging this, and what happens if they do? Don't know what can be done to solve the problem, operators must be happy.

(11 Mar 2020, 6:53 pm)scanialover wrote It's just as Tyresmoke said, in a nutshell. The reimbursement from the concessionary fare schene, irregardless of local authority is quite frankly scandalous ! I mean just look at a journey like Guisborough to Stokesley and return. Not sure of the actual fare, let's say a fiver and the operator gets back just a fraction of this? A no-brainer why that service was withdrawn but then consider those that are still operating where the revenue potential isn't anything like it should be.
Then, not taking anything away from our genuine concessionary pass users, but just how many of these passes are being fraudulently used ? Drivers have no way of being able to check and revenue inspectors are few and far between; non-existent from Arriva, only marginally better on Stagecoach, can't comment on GNE as I'm not from that area but I've never seen one on the X9/10.
So here is another revenue stream that is been missed and begs that question why so? Are the operators making enough money to dispense with revenue protection?

The only time I've ever seen an Arriva inspector was during the strikes. He was from Northumbria and showing a Yorkshire driver the X46 and 6 routes (which neither of them knew!). 
I was on the bus when he got assaulted because he caught someone using someone else's concessionary pass, even though it was free travel anyway!

I used to see GNE inspectors quite regularly but I haven't seen one for about 4 years now.

(11 Mar 2020, 4:26 pm)streetdeckfan wrote As I've said before, I think the reason single fares are so expensive is because they can be. Things are always more expensive when only buying one. People who rely on the bus to get to work are probably buying a day/week ticket, so it's just the people who use the bus as a one off that are affected.
I'm not saying it's right, but if you don't 'overcharge' the one off passengers then you have to increase the price for the regular passengers.

In Bishop Auckland (and I'm sure other places are the same) everyone and their dog seems to have a concessionary pass, whether or not they're using their own pass is another question! (and knowing some of the people, I doubt they are)

You sure?

(11 Mar 2020, 8:35 pm)streetdeckfan wrote The only time I've ever seen an Arriva inspector was during the strikes. He was from Northumbria and showing a Yorkshire driver the X46 and 6 routes (which neither of them knew!). 
I was on the bus when he got assaulted because he caught someone using someone else's concessionary pass, even though it was free travel anyway!

I used to see GNE inspectors quite regularly but I haven't seen one for about 4 years now.

Preventing them from using said pass when the strikes ended...!

(11 Mar 2020, 8:41 pm)omnicity4659 wrote Preventing them from using said pass when the strikes ended...!

I was more emphasising the fact that the person tried to use the pass when there was a big sign saying free travel!

Exactly what I said. The lack of revenue protection afforded our operators is nothing short of criminal and our neredowells know so! Look at those pitiful notices in the cabs of Arriva vehicles? "In case of assault......!!! Dear me, just what happens?tay with. your vehicle and contact the depot / police. What with? Arriva won't invest in radios (a bit like inspectors) and I would imagine Stagecoach aren't far behind.

(11 Mar 2020, 8:45 pm)scanialover wrote Exactly what I said. The lack of revenue protection afforded our operators is nothing short of criminal and our neredowells know so!  Look at those pitiful notices in the cabs of Arriva vehicles? "In case of assault......!!! Dear me, just what happens?tay with. your vehicle and contact the depot / police. What with? Arriva won't invest in radios (a bit like inspectors) and I would imagine Stagecoach aren't far behind.

I've mentioned before a time when the EMV wasn't working on the old ticket machine and a passenger was getting angry because they had no cash with them.
That time the driver tried to contact the depot using their mobile and nobody answered. After a few tries they ended up calling someone at the depot's personal number to get through to someone!

Wouldn't it be good if guys like Tyresmoke came to the forum more with the interesting facts from their wealth of knowledge from within the bus industry? Does, and can help support some of the issues that are raised and hopefully gives people an insight into the many problems faced by both the operators and those who are front line delivering the services that we enjoy.

When you look at things our Scania fleet, given the hard life they've had are in far better condition than the the likes of 1602 (Streetlite). I dread to think just what these are going to be like if they survive anything like the Scanias. Personally I'd rather be climbing into the cab of Scania as opposed to a Streetlite, a whole better driving experience. It would be rather good and maybe a sound business idea if our Scania fleet was to given a complete overhaul, both ex and internally. Failing that someone should take one of this iconic type into preservation.

A few years ago Peter Shipp (of EYMS) did an interview saying that bus services were at risk because the ENCTS passes werent paying enough to the operators. You could have a bus with a lot of pensioners on it which was unsustainable because it was not making enough money.

As far as I know, he's the only bus company boss who has really spoken out publicly in criticism of the scheme. But we all have seen in recent years how services have been trimmed back each time the timetable changes come into force.

It really should be that the ENCTS passholders are charged a small amount per use of the pass, say £1 or even 50p per journey. Not to replace what the councils pay, but to help keep more buses on the road. You could even have those payments ring fenced for use to pay for evening services, or those which require subsidies and wouldnt otherwise run.

That way the pensioner gets very cheap travel but values their pass, and is helping pay a little towards more buses on the road which can of course benefit all of us.

(13 Mar 2020, 8:32 am)tvd wrote A few years ago Peter Shipp (of EYMS) did an interview saying that bus services were at risk because the ENCTS passes werent paying enough to the operators.  You could have a bus with a lot of pensioners on it which was unsustainable because it was not making enough money.

As far as I know, he's the only bus company boss who has really spoken out publicly in criticism of the scheme.  But we all have seen in recent years how services have been trimmed back each time the timetable changes come into force.

It really should be that the ENCTS  passholders are charged a small amount per use of the pass, say £1 or even 50p per journey.  Not to replace what the councils pay, but to help keep more buses on the road.  You could even have those payments ring fenced for use to pay for evening services, or those which require subsidies and wouldnt otherwise run.

That way the pensioner gets very cheap travel but values their pass, and is helping pay a little towards more buses on the road which can of course benefit all of us.

I'm a firm believer in making the ENCTS means tested, just like any other benefit (which is exactly what it is, and it should be treated as such)

People, like my grandfather, who can very much afford to travel by bus should have to pay just like the rest of us. Likewise, the ENCTS should be opened up to those who truly can't afford to travel by bus

I get there are other reasons for having the ENCTS other than the cost of buses (ie. stopping loneliness, getting people out the house etc.) but I think the system as it is now is just inherently unfair

As you've probably heard me say before, I'm not a fan of free things as nothing is truly free, but if you're going to give people free travel, at least give it to those that can't afford to pay for it themselves

Being reading just how Stagecoach, in other parts of the country are being very pro-actice in doing what they can to help manage the risk / threat from the Corona virus: I would imagine GNE are much though the same, there always seems to be a high standard of cleanliness and hygiene on their vehicles. But then, yes I know this is the Arriva forum, just what about them and the Corona stuff? I might be wrong but I don't see a cleaning regime as rigourous as the other two

(13 Mar 2020, 7:47 pm)scanialover wrote Being reading just how Stagecoach, in other parts of the country are being very pro-actice in doing what they can to help manage the risk / threat from the Corona virus: I would imagine GNE are much though the same, there always seems to be a high standard of cleanliness and hygiene on their vehicles. But then, yes I know this is the Arriva forum, just what about them and the Corona stuff? I might be wrong but I don't see a cleaning regime as rigourous as the other two

Doesn't matter too much how often a bus is cleaned. It only takes one infected person to pass it on. 

Sticky floors and dudtbunnies don't seem to be a uniquely arriva thing. The angels, in particular, are often revolting inside.

When will 4802 return?

(13 Mar 2020, 11:45 am)streetdeckfan wrote I'm a firm believer in making the ENCTS means tested, just like any other benefit (which is exactly what it is, and it should be treated as such)

People, like my grandfather, who can very much afford to travel by bus should have to pay just like the rest of us. Likewise, the ENCTS should be opened up to those who truly can't afford to travel by bus

I get there are other reasons for having the ENCTS other than the cost of buses (ie. stopping loneliness, getting people out the house etc.) but I think the system as it is now is just inherently unfair

As you've probably heard me say before, I'm not a fan of free things as nothing is truly free, but if you're going to give people free travel, at least give it to those that can't afford to pay for it themselves

I have to agree with you here but there's just one problem who's going to pay to do for the means testing. By the time you've employed the staff to run it you'll probably end much just spending it on that rather that so it's not the biggest benefit.

Personally it's the disabled side I'd target more than pensioners (I do say the age should increase though). Unless you can't work because of your disability so blindness etc then I don't understand why you should get free travel regardless. In an age when we're trying to move people from driving, giving a free pass because someone can't drive in my opinion is a bit counter argutive. Discounted travel maybe, free no.

(13 Mar 2020, 7:47 pm)scanialover wrote Being reading just how Stagecoach, in other parts of the country are being very pro-actice in doing what they can to help manage the risk / threat from the Corona virus: I would imagine GNE are much though the same, there always seems to be a high standard of cleanliness and hygiene on their vehicles. But then, yes I know this is the Arriva forum, just what about them and the Corona stuff? I might be wrong but I don't see a cleaning regime as rigourous as the other two

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/coronavirus/

(14 Mar 2020, 12:34 am)omnicity4659 wrote https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/coronavirus/

Must admit, I did have a good giggle at "Bus and coach operators have extensive cleaning regimes that maintain high levels of hygiene"
Clearly they've never been on one of their own buses!

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(13 Mar 2020, 8:32 am)tvd wrote A few years ago Peter Shipp (of EYMS) did an interview saying that bus services were at risk because the ENCTS passes werent paying enough to the operators.  You could have a bus with a lot of pensioners on it which was unsustainable because it was not making enough money.

As far as I know, he's the only bus company boss who has really spoken out publicly in criticism of the scheme.  But we all have seen in recent years how services have been trimmed back each time the timetable changes come into force.

It really should be that the ENCTS  passholders are charged a small amount per use of the pass, say £1 or even 50p per journey.  Not to replace what the councils pay, but to help keep more buses on the road.  You could even have those payments ring fenced for use to pay for evening services, or those which require subsidies and wouldnt otherwise run.

That way the pensioner gets very cheap travel but values their pass, and is helping pay a little towards more buses on the road which can of course benefit all of us.

Paul Thompson of Leven Valley said a similar thing. Passengers weren't even allowed to make a voluntary contribution if they so desired.

(14 Mar 2020, 2:13 am)Cock Robin wrote Paul Thompson of Leven Valley said a similar thing. Passengers weren't even allowed to make a voluntary contribution if they so desired.

They could have just paid the fare though. ENCTS has been the downfall of many rural services, some sort of fare contribution system has to be the best way forward.

Maybe there’s a simpler explanation why the government are allowing pensioners to have free travel, maybe what was said in the budget a few years ago and what the pensioners are now had to put up through in the 1940’s, as the younger generation doesn’t realise unless a WW3 arrives, it’s called giving something back


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(14 Mar 2020, 12:42 pm)cbma06 wrote Maybe there’s a simpler explanation why the government are allowing pensioners to have free travel, maybe what was said in the budget a few years ago and what the pensioners are now had to put up through in the 1940’s, as the  younger generation doesn’t realise unless a WW3 arrives, it’s called giving something back


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Incredibly few people who were adults in the 1940s was will still be using public transport. It’s generous to think politicians are thinking of anything beyond their own gain when they were introducing or maintaining ENCTS. Look at the backlash when the over 75’s TV licence was threatened - which was much more affordable for most pensioners. Changing ENCTS would be a PR disaster for the government, so it rumbles on as services are continually withdrawn - see the 81 in Redcar.

(14 Mar 2020, 12:34 am)omnicity4659 wrote https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/coronavirus/

Didn't even see basic levels of hygiene on the ALX400 on our X12, this afternoon.

(14 Mar 2020, 2:55 pm)James101 wrote Incredibly few people who were adults in the 1940s was will still be using public transport. It’s generous to think politicians are thinking of anything beyond their own gain when they were introducing or maintaining ENCTS. Look at the backlash when the over 75’s TV licence was threatened - which was much more affordable for most pensioners. Changing ENCTS would be a PR disaster for the government, so it rumbles on as services are continually withdrawn - see the 81 in Redcar.

Yea the BBC wanted more money from the government for the free tv license for the pensioners, hasn’t the age gone up to get free tv license now?, I probably be under the ground before I get to the state pension age which we have to be about 85 by then, which will save the government money, in the future there supposedly be gradually withdrawing the state pension


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Our BTL9's seem to be in good health - mechanically. 7402 on my journey down to Whitby, sat on 7406 just. A shame that the high standard of hygiene as promised by Arriva is pretty much non-existent! Keeping these, and other vehicles in a field, with only minimal facilities won't help.