Regarding Dan's comment about the night buses: the angel is out with its night bus livery, this afternoon, while the 56 one is still bare.

As far as I am aware, Stanley Travel currently have no plans of repainting the Geminis. Understandable if the contract is short but they could at least tidy the bodywork up.

(14 Oct 2017, 1:04 pm)Jimmi wrote About how long do the current contracts last? I fear that if the answer is a short duration, the operators won't bother spending as much effort in vehicle presentation, especially if they are mostly only going to do scholar's and Nexus misc boards, when Phoenix aquired a fair amount of Nexus contracts last year, they put pretty much all of the vehicles they aquired out in their previous operators liveries and sure enough they lost most of these services when the contracts came to a end about 8 months later, who would spend fortunes on making buses look smart and well presented when you only end up having to sell them after 8 months, which is a shame really.

(14 Oct 2017, 3:28 pm)S813 FVK wrote As far as I am aware, Stanley Travel currently have no plans of repainting the Geminis. Understandable if the contract is short but they could at least tidy the bodywork up.

All of the scholars/Miscellaneous Works contracts come up for renewal every year - and I agree with the comments that this is the reason why the independent operators don't bother making the buses looking all that pretty.

The North East market for operating these contracts is so competitive that all operators bid low and on the most part probably don't take into account the cost of having to repaint a bus too.

(14 Oct 2017, 8:24 am)Swiny1 wrote Dan do you think GNE will win some of the contracts back. Awful seeing Kingsley (cowboys) operating so much. Some of the buses they have now must be leased but I still think they will balls up

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Kingsleys should be given some credit for bringing newer vehicles to several Nexus school contracts. A 53 plate Gemini has to be an improvement on a V plate President.

The buses that Kingsleys have acquired were pre-owned by respected operators such as Go-Ahead, Arriva and Metroline. As such the vehicles came with good service history but not withstanding that lower panels were removed to inspect the structure and in many cases brand new replacement panels were fitted.
Therefore recently acquired vehicles have been improved while some legacy vehicles have upgraded emission systems.

In my opinion Kingsleys are a long established family run business that take a great pride in their operations.

Some of Kingsleys vehicles are now advertising on behalf of the schools that they serve. A major operator is unlikely to support schools own advertising as is the case with an independent business.

(14 Oct 2017, 12:21 pm)cbma06 wrote Only slightly agree with the comments, it's ashame that the independent bus companies don't have the backing of someone who's smoking a big Brazilian cigar [emoji23]


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(14 Oct 2017, 1:04 pm)Jimmi wrote About how long do the current contracts last? I fear that if the answer is a short duration, the operators won't bother spending as much effort in vehicle presentation, especially if they are mostly only going to do scholar's and Nexus misc boards, when Phoenix aquired a fair amount of Nexus contracts last year, they put pretty much all of the vehicles they aquired out in their previous operators liveries and sure enough they lost most of these services when the contracts came to a end about 8 months later, who would spend fortunes on making buses look smart and well presented when you only end up having to sell them after 8 months, which is a shame really.

I think those two points, hit the nail on the head.
All be it, in a totally fashion.

There's no PLC funding these purchases, repaints, pleather seating, wifi, plugs etc like there is with the big boys.
There's no need to do so, because the contracts are for such a short period.

Kingsleys had a smart fleet in the past - even though the fleet colour scheme was adapted previously (to suit the livery their WM Metrobuses arrived in ironically).
Did their ex-Lothian's ever get a repaint? I remember them hanging around for quite a while in harlequin.

Gateshead Central haven't repainted their entire fleet orange and possible can't afford to, due to the margins they're on.

I haven't picked up on the quotes about driving. Simply because they're down to opinion.
If schools, Nexus and whoever else are continually hiring them for contracts, the fleet are passing PSV tests and VOSA (or whatever they're called these days) are happy with what is put before them and *touch wood*, there hasn't been a serious accident... Then I would suggest that maybe there isn't too much wrong...

(14 Oct 2017, 3:00 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Regarding Dan's comment about the night buses: the angel is out with its night bus livery, this afternoon, while the 56 one is still bare.

6070 new livery https://flic.kr/p/ZnUpt9

Credit: Steven Hodgson, John Soutar and Mark McCannteven Hodgson, John Soutar and Mar

(14 Oct 2017, 3:51 pm)GuyParkRoyal wrote In my opinion Kingsleys are a long established family run business that take a great pride in their operations.

Some of Kingsleys vehicles are now advertising on behalf of the schools that they serve. A major operator is unlikely to support schools own advertising as is the case with an independent business.

Agreed. I think some of the criticism (especially the referring to them as 'cowboys') is extremely unfair. 

Kingsleys, as well as being a long established family run business, have also a long established record of delivering value for money to the local authority. They have been running scholars and works services, especially in the Washington area, for the past 20 years. Whilst their fleet may not be full of 17 plates, they have constantly invested and upgraded what fleet they have, without the use of PFI schemes or similar. 

(14 Oct 2017, 3:55 pm)Andreos1 wrote I think those two points, hit the nail on the head.
All be it, in a totally fashion.

There's no PLC funding these purchases, repaints, pleather seating, wifi, plugs etc like there is with the big boys.
There's no need to do so, because the contracts are for such a short period.

Kingsleys had a smart fleet in the past - even though the fleet colour scheme was adapted previously (to suit the livery their WM Metrobuses arrived in ironically).
Did their ex-Lothian's ever get a repaint? I remember them hanging around for quite a while in harlequin.

Gateshead Central haven't repainted their entire fleet orange and possible can't afford to, due to the margins they're on.

I haven't picked up on the quotes about driving. Simply because they're down to opinion.
If schools, Nexus and whoever else are continually hiring them for contracts, the fleet are passing PSV tests and VOSA (or whatever they're called these days) are happy with what is put before them and *touch wood*, there hasn't been a serious accident... Then I would suggest that maybe there isn't too much wrong...

Kingsleys tend to push everything through the paint shop eventually, and I do think their fleet liveries look smart. I am not sure that the Lothian ones did, but they didn't last that long. The Cadet they got from GNE was painted sharp enough though.

I don't think GCT have a fleet livery as such. They kind of adopted the Nexus red and grey livery, but it never included any fleet names or anything.

(14 Oct 2017, 6:19 pm)Adrian wrote Kingsleys, as well as being a long established family run business, have also a long established record of delivering value for money to the local authority. They have been running scholars and works services, especially in the Washington area, for the past 20 years. Whilst their fleet may not be full of 17 plates, they have constantly invested and upgraded what fleet they have, without the use of PFI schemes or similar.

Have Kingsleys ever operated their own commercial services? I can't recall one in the recent past.

Though a different kettle of fish to the topic in the original post, we've regularly commented on this forum in the past about how independent operators should do more to take risks and operate services commercially.

(14 Oct 2017, 6:33 pm)Dan wrote Have Kingsleys ever operated their own commercial services? I can't recall one in the recent past.

Though a different kettle of fish to the topic in the original post, we've regularly commented on this forum in the past about how independent operators should do more to take risks and operate services commercially.

I believe they attempted one around 2000 - C1/C2 springs to mind? 

I agree that all independents should make more attempt to run commercial services in the areas they serve, rather than just existing to operate secured services. Although we shouldn't forget that some, e.g. Stanley Travel, primarily operate in a different commercial market. 

However, it is all good and well suggesting independents should take more risk with commercial ventures, but the same could be said about the big three up here. Now that the commercial market is almost independent free, the big three almost stick to their comfort zone, as oppose to venturing into new markets. It is certainly not what was expected to come with deregulation. 

There is then the problem of commercial multi journey tickets. Whilst I wouldn't for one minute knock the value for money they provide to the customer, I do think that they have in turn priced independents out of the market. We often say that there is very little brand loyalty as far as OAPs go (they will just get the first bus), there is an enforced brand loyalty with those that need monthly or season tickets. Especially outside of Tyne and Wear.

A chester le street driver has told me that the 28s apparently getting long versas. However i doubt this

The 58 CL versas have done 4 years of service, not a bad shout actually.

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(15 Oct 2017, 2:16 am)Jamie M wrote The 58 CL versas have done 4 years of service, not a bad shout actually.

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Streetlites for the 58?

Probably, the BSOG benefits amongst standardisation make them seem a likely choice. You could maybe even justify a decker upgrade due to the peak time loads.

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(14 Oct 2017, 3:00 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Regarding Dan's comment about the night buses: the angel is out with its night bus livery, this afternoon, while the 56 one is still bare.

6070 was also allocated to the N21 service last night.

Go North East: 6070 / NK62CZL by Daniel Graham, on Flickr

When will 5299-5303, get branded for the X84/X85 and 680?

(15 Oct 2017, 10:08 am)Michael wrote When will 5299-5303, get branded for the X84/X85 and 680?

Probably when 5298 returns, as that's an orange one too.

5229 has now transferred to Chester-le-Street, following repaint.

(15 Oct 2017, 10:11 am)Dan wrote Probably when 5298 returns, as that's an orange one too.

5229 has now transferred to Chester-le-Street, following repaint.

Will that batch be spares at Chester?

(14 Oct 2017, 9:49 pm)Citaro5326 wrote A chester le street driver has told me that the 28s apparently getting long versas. However i doubt this

I was told the same yesterday morning. Coincidence or just driver rumours

I wouldn't be too surprised if Chester-le-Street does get Versa's for the 28s, especially as it would achieve further fleet standardisation considering they already have some for the 34/34A & 36.

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(15 Oct 2017, 10:37 am)Jimmi wrote I wouldn't be too surprised if Chester-le-Street does get Versa's for the 28s, especially as it would achieve further fleet standardisation considering they already have some for the 34/34A & 36.

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Wouldn't surprise me, the 13/14 and X25 could also get them, if we see a massive influx of Streetlites again but i'm sure i read a while back that single deckers wouldn't be ordered as much for the next 2 years.

(15 Oct 2017, 11:52 am)Michael wrote Wouldn't surprise me, the 13/14 and X25 could also get them, if we see a massive influx of Streetlites again but i'm sure i read a while back that single deckers wouldn't be ordered as much for the next 2 years.

So am I. 

I think if we are going to see this happen, it would have to be through the remaining Citaro refurbishments and would probably mean that Deptford would need to lose some of their Citaros to Riverside (5305-9/25-7?) for the 58, releasing the Versas to go elsewhere. Certainly a good opportunity to bring the 58 up to the same specification as the 57 (ie the addition of USB Sockets).

(15 Oct 2017, 12:00 pm)S813 FVK wrote So am I. 

I think if we are going to see this happen, it would have to be through the remaining Citaro refurbishments and would probably mean that Deptford would need to lose some of their Citaros to Riverside (5305-9/25-7?) for the 58, releasing the Versas to go elsewhere. Certainly a good opportunity to bring the 58 up to the same specification as the 57 (ie the addition of USB Sockets).

But what would go to Deptford to replace the Citaro's?, Deptford haven't got any Versa's, so i doubt they would get them now.

(15 Oct 2017, 12:09 pm)Michael wrote But what would go to Deptford to replace the Citaro's?, Deptford haven't got any Versa's, so i doubt they would get them now.

Other than Solars from Chester-le-Street, I have no idea. I haven't considered other rumoured 'upgrades' such as the B5LHs moving to the Coaster though which makes answering your question much easier.

(15 Oct 2017, 12:12 pm)S813 FVK wrote Other than Solars from Chester-le-Street, I have no idea. I haven't considered other rumoured 'upgrades' such as the B5LHs moving to the Coaster though which makes answering your question much easier.

But Deptford have no Omnicities either, so i doubt they'll get them now, but you never know.

(15 Oct 2017, 12:19 pm)Michael wrote But Deptford have no Omnicities either, so i doubt they'll get them now, but you never know.

You're quite right, but you can easily give the Omnicities to depots which do have them/have had them (e.g. Washington, Chester-le-Street and Riverside) which can then allow Citaros and Solars to transfer to Deptford.

I also think that there is only so far you can go with depot standardisation before allocating more than 1 or 2 vehicle types to a depot becomes unavoidable.

(15 Oct 2017, 12:30 pm)S813 FVK wrote You're quite right, but you can easily give the Omnicities to depots which do have them/have had them (e.g. Washington, Chester-le-Street and Riverside) which can then allow Citaros and Solars to transfer to Deptford.

I also think that there is only so far you can go with depot standardisation before allocating more than 1 or 2 vehicle types to a depot becomes unavoidable.

I think Deptford will just keep 5305-5309 for the 61 and 5325-27 and gain, 5328-5332 for the 35, with 5333/34 being spares for Deptford, like it was said before.

Black Cats Solar's re-allocated to the 9 and 38, it just seems alot easier...then new buses can be ordered for other services. As i can't see Deptford getting anything new for a few years now, i think Riverside will be next for new buses, The Quaylink allocation is a mess, with 3 different years of Versa allocated (2010/2011 and 2013), maybe its for them to get new buses although that'll cost a lot but the 20/20A got new buses, which has a high PVR... with rest of the order decker's.

(15 Oct 2017, 12:34 pm)Michael wrote I think Deptford will just keep 5305-5309 for the 61 and 5325-27 and gain, 5328-5332 for the 35, with 5333/34 being spares for Deptford, like it was said before.

Black Cats Solar's re-allocated to the 9 and 38, it just seems alot easier...then new buses can be ordered for other services. As i can't see Deptford getting anything new for a few years now, i think Riverside will be next for new buses, The Quaylink allocation is a mess, with 3 different years of Versa allocated (2010/2011 and 2013), maybe its for them to get new buses although that'll cost a lot but the 20/20A got new buses, which has a high PVR... with rest of the order decker's.

PVR of 35 is 8 so could be:

5323-5328 for the 9 under new brand
5329-5336 for 35 (5337 & 5338 spare)
5305-5307 washy spare
5308 & 5309 riverside

If streetdeck are ordered for 21 amd B5H go to Percy Main for coaster then
8 omni for 11 plus 2 spare
1 to washy to displace 5307 to riverside
Rest remain at PM to displace eclipse/solar

If streetlite ordered for 58 then:
5 long versa to chester for 28
9 long versa to Q3
Q1/Q2 to be standardised to midi versa

I can't see 5324, 5337 and 5338 staying at Washington for much longer post-refurbishment. Seems bizarre to me to have spare vehicles that are of a higher specification than the regular allocation.

(15 Oct 2017, 1:31 pm)S813 FVK wrote I can't see 5324, 5337 and 5338 staying at Washington for much longer post-refurbishment. Seems bizarre to me to have spare vehicles that are of a higher specification than the regular allocation.

5337 and 5338 are a different vehicle then service there spares for which are 5/50

(15 Oct 2017, 1:31 pm)S813 FVK wrote I can't see 5324, 5337 and 5338 staying at Washington for much longer post-refurbishment. Seems bizarre to me to have spare vehicles that are of a higher specification than the regular allocation.

Ye i agree, maybe JP6004 could be right with his allocations, although the Scania's have just been branded "Black Cats", they could be used as spares.


5328/5329 should arrive back this week, if I've got the order correct.