(15 Sep 2013, 4:57 pm)aureolin wrote There's something that's always intrigued me. Why do you quite often see services that are yet to terminate but not far from the terminus, with the incorrect destination blind set? This photo below for example:


Photo credit: Sean Harris.

I've notice this happens quite often with buses passing through Blackett Street onwards to Eldon Square bus station. It only ever seems to be specific services that do it, which made me think it could perhaps be automated and not working correctly? Seen this on the X1, X9/X10, 10, and 21 through Newcastle, the 2A/2C in Washington, and the 2A/2C/56 in Sunderland.

I've seen bus drivers change there blinds as early as Gateshead. I saw a X21 depart Gateshead with it's blind already set for Bishop!

(15 Sep 2013, 5:03 pm)W179SCU wrote I've seen bus drivers change there blinds as early as Gateshead. I saw a X21 depart Gateshead with it's blind already set for Bishop!

When buses used to use West Street northbound rather than the Interchange to set down in Gateshead and before digital displays, it was standard practice for the drivers to alter the destination display there.

Why do you ask this Aureolin?

Have you missed a bus from John Dobson Street to Eldon Square because it was blinded up for the new destination you lazy git?

(15 Sep 2013, 4:01 pm)Daniel wrote So much so, it is reported that a plum Solar has been on X1s today!

I can confirm there was a plum coloured Solar on the X1 (don't know which one though (sorry)). Saw it doing the 10:58 departure from Wrekenton bound for Newcastle.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:09 pm)big mac wrote When buses used to use West Street northbound rather than the Interchange to set down in Gateshead and before digital displays, it was standard practice for the drivers to alter the destination display there.

Even though the bus terminates at Newcastle? If the blind is set too early, the Newcastle to Bishop X21 in the example above would technically be off route as it's going the wrong way.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:12 pm)gtomlinson wrote Why do you ask this Aureolin?

Have you missed a bus from John Dobson Street to Eldon Square because it was blinded up for the new destination you lazy git?

Yes You've caught me out.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:41 pm)aureolin wrote Even though the bus terminates at Newcastle? If the blind is set too early, the Newcastle to Bishop X21 in the example above would technically be off route as it's going the wrong way.

Not really as once it leaves Gateshead its unlikely to pick up any passengers. I think your creating an issue that doesn't exist (that isn't meant to sound smarmy!)

(15 Sep 2013, 4:57 pm)aureolin wrote There's something that's always intrigued me. Why do you quite often see services that are yet to terminate but not far from the terminus, with the incorrect destination blind set? This photo below for example:


Photo credit: Sean Harris.

I've notice this happens quite often with buses passing through Blackett Street onwards to Eldon Square bus station. It only ever seems to be specific services that do it, which made me think it could perhaps be automated and not working correctly? Seen this on the X1, X9/X10, 10, and 21 through Newcastle, the 2A/2C in Washington, and the 2A/2C/56 in Sunderland.

it's so obvious that it's hardly worth commenting on, the destination display is set ready for the next journey when the driver gets a chance so it arrives at Eldon Square (or wherever) showing correct details for awaiting passengers. It happens everywhere all the time.

Although this may well be common practice among bus drivers if, say, the Traffic Commissioner observed a driver doing this, would it contstitute an offence?

(15 Sep 2013, 5:47 pm)AdamY wrote Although this may well be common practice among bus drivers if, say, the Traffic Commissioner observed a driver doing this, would it contstitute an offence?

Could anyone (Traffic Commissioner or otherwise) really have any quarrel with the blinds being reset as in the example given? The vehicles are about to turn into Eldon Square Bus Station - no more possible stops en route, what's the problem? Better this than two Angels pulling on stand both showing Newcastle as their destination.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:51 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Could anyone (Traffic Commissioner or otherwise) really have any quarrel with the blinds being reset as in the example given? The vehicles are about to turn into Eldon Square Bus Station - no more possible stops en route, what's the problem? Better this than two Angels pulling on stand both showing Newcastle as their destination.

I'm not arguing about the reasons behind it which are indeed obvious and sound, but rather the semantics and whether or not it is technically wrong.

I guess I'm just curious that's all!

(15 Sep 2013, 5:47 pm)Greg in Weardale wrote it's so obvious that it's hardly worth commenting on, the destination display is set ready for the next journey when the driver gets a chance so it arrives at Eldon Square (or wherever) showing correct details for awaiting passengers. It happens everywhere all the time.

You'll have to explain to me how obvious it is. I'd assume it's now a button press or two at most to change the destination on the blind, now that we live in a digital world. It's not like 20 years ago when drivers would have to scroll through a roll of endless destinations and service numbers.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:46 pm)gtomlinson wrote Not really as once it leaves Gateshead its unlikely to pick up any passengers. I think your creating an issue that doesn't exist (that isn't meant to sound smarmy!)

It's just something that I decided to post merely on an observation. The image example that I posted was perhaps a bad example, but a better one may be that I've caught the 2C a number of times from Wear Industrial Estate at Washington, and it's already had "Sunderland" set. Despite it being headed towards the Galleries. The only pattern is that it tends to be when the bus is running considerably late.

The responses make me think that there's something a bit underhand with this. I think it's one thing to say it's "to make things easier" or whatever, but in the above examples, it's always shown on my Key card as me boarding a bus towards Sunderland. My understanding was that the blinds and ticket machine worked independent of each other, so technically speaking, both would have to be adjusted to be set up for the 'next trip' if you like. If anyone can give a plausible explanation of that I'd love to hear it.

I should add that this isn't something I've seen unique to GNE. I quite often notice the Arriva X2 has already changed to the X1 before it even gets to the University Hospital stop.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:55 pm)AdamY wrote I'm not arguing about the reasons behind it which are indeed obvious and sound, but rather the semantics and whether or not it is technically wrong.

I guess I'm just curious that's all!

I'd be surprised if there's a hard and fast rule as to how near to a terminus point a bus needs to be before a driver can change the blind. It would seem reasonable to say any point after the last possible boarding point for that service was acceptable. So for the 21, displaying the 'wrong' destination along Blackett Street would be fine, as it only sets down then terminates at Eldon Square. Changing the destination before arriving at Gateshead Interchange clearly wouldn't.

(15 Sep 2013, 5:51 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Could anyone (Traffic Commissioner or otherwise) really have any quarrel with the blinds being reset as in the example given? The vehicles are about to turn into Eldon Square Bus Station - no more possible stops en route, what's the problem? Better this than two Angels pulling on stand both showing Newcastle as their destination.

Sunderland area was worse for that years ago, Wheatsheaf to Park Lane or Central Bus Station, when Coastline did the 310 319 there used to change there destination before it left the Wheatsheaf to go into Sunderland also Wear Buses 130/131 used to do the same also the Economic E1/E2/E6 used to have there blinds changed before there went over the Wearmouth Bridge. By VOSA years ago there are not aloud to change there destination blind until there have reached there destination on the current service there operating on, don't know if the same information has been relaxed.

Currently the Economics that pull into behind Marks and Spencers in Sunderland already have there destination already changed for there outbound journey but passengers can still board the bus there to go to the Interchange.

The destination blind on the Angel 21 should be changed before departing from the bus stop at the foot of John Dobson Street as south bound customers are allowed to board the bus at this stop. This is also noted on the route map at the foot of the Angel 21 timetable. Although the bus enters Eldon Square the route north from Gateshead and returning to Gateshead is considered a circular route.

(15 Sep 2013, 6:07 pm)GuyParkRoyal wrote The destination blind on the Angel 21 should be changed before departing from the bus stop at the foot of John Dobson Street as south bound customers are allowed to board the bus at this stop. This is also noted on the route map at the foot of the Angel 21 timetable. Although the bus enters Eldon Square the route north from Gateshead and returning to Gateshead is considered a circular route.

I wonder if anyone does or if a driver would even let you? (despite it being marked on timetable)

I've seen Angels parked up in layover bays at ES, what happens then if the driver let you on?

(15 Sep 2013, 4:01 pm)Daniel wrote So much so, it is reported that a plum Solar has been on X1s today!

I can second this.

(15 Sep 2013, 6:04 pm)aureolin wrote It's just something that I decided to post merely on an observation. The image example that I posted was perhaps a bad example, but a better one may be that I've caught the 2C a number of times from Wear Industrial Estate at Washington, and it's already had "Sunderland" set. Despite it being headed towards the Galleries. The only pattern is that it tends to be when the bus is running considerably late.

Today, in fact, my 'SimpliCity (Drifter)' service 61 arrived at Ryhope Rd/The Cedars already blinded up for the 'SilverArrows' 2A to Washington Galleries. It still had three stops before reaching Park Lane Interchange.

Just to add, services have often done that.

Way back when, sitting upstairs and peering through the periscope, you would often see drivers changing the blinds whilst at the Gateshead Ogre or closer to the lights at the bottom of High St West.

Now the system apparently seems to tie in with the machine, does a late running service change the destination to seemingly improve performance figures?
If aureolin got on that Silver Arrow, that was running late - who can argue with the data downloaded from a ticket machine...

I had posted above that my understanding was that they worked independent of each other. My point was that when I had checked the data on 'The Key' website later on, and it had showed that said trip with a destination of 'Sunderland' rather than 'Washington'. That tells me that someone had gone to the effort to change both early.

It does intrigue me why this would be done, and exactly how a single fare would have been issued should I have asked for it? My thoughts on this are similar to what Andreos1 has said, and it would perhaps explain why customer services quite often 'have no reports' of late running services?

(15 Sep 2013, 7:19 pm)citaro5284 wrote Where have you read the destination is linked to the ETM - It isn't, the destination has nothing to do with the ticket machine or the data the ETM holds.

If they are independent of each other, then they are both being changed by the driver.
I had heard they were now linked, but obviously not.

Either way, if the driver changes both on a late running service, then as I said before, who can argue with the data downloaded from a ticket machine...

(15 Sep 2013, 6:04 pm)aureolin wrote ... it's always shown on my Key card as me boarding a bus towards Sunderland. My understanding was that the blinds and ticket machine worked independent of each other, so technically speaking, both would have to be adjusted to be set up for the 'next trip' if you like...

As soon as a driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, he'll reset the ticket machine ready for the start of the next trip, or log out of the ticket machine if the bus is finishing. Equally, as soon as the driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, and before the first possible boarding point of the next trip, he'll reset the blind (both, of course, when it's safe to do so!).

Personally, I think it's important to do the blind well before you reach a bus station such as Eldon Square - eg., GNE 31 and 11 interwork, as do 47 and 32. Imagine the chaos if a Toonlink arrived showing "Newcastle 32", pulled on to a stand and then became "Blackhall Mill 47".

On the question of resetting ticket machines... from what I've seen, it seems to be GNE practice that when a driver changeover happens during a service (at Blaydon, for example), the incoming driver collects any fares before signing out of the machine and swapping with his mate. Is this the norm with other operators, or do things vary from company to company (eg, Stagecoach on Stamfordham Road opposite Slatyford depot?).

(15 Sep 2013, 8:00 pm)eezypeazy wrote As soon as a driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, he'll reset the ticket machine ready for the start of the next trip, or log out of the ticket machine if the bus is finishing. Equally, as soon as the driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, and before the first possible boarding point of the next trip, he'll reset the blind (both, of course, when it's safe to do so!).

Personally, I think it's important to do the blind well before you reach a bus station such as Eldon Square - eg., GNE 31 and 11 interwork, as do 47 and 32. Imagine the chaos if a Toonlink arrived showing "Newcastle 32", pulled on to a stand and then became "Blackhall Mill 47".

On the question of resetting ticket machines... from what I've seen, it seems to be GNE practice that when a driver changeover happens during a service (at Blaydon, for example), the incoming driver collects any fares before signing out of the machine and swapping with his mate. Is this the norm with other operators, or do things vary from company to company (eg, Stagecoach on Stamfordham Road opposite Slatyford depot?).

For me it all depends if the next driver is already at the stand. In Middlesbrough we generally changeover in the layover bays in the middle, but in Stockton we don't.... If the next driver is already there then we handover before we load passengers, but sometimes I will load them up if there's only 1 or 2 (if I haven't already signed off that is!)

(15 Sep 2013, 6:07 pm)GuyParkRoyal wrote The destination blind on the Angel 21 should be changed before departing from the bus stop at the foot of John Dobson Street as south bound customers are allowed to board the bus at this stop. This is also noted on the route map at the foot of the Angel 21 timetable. Although the bus enters Eldon Square the route north from Gateshead and returning to Gateshead is considered a circular route.

I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen someone board the 21 at John Dobson Street to travel southbound. So, even though technically customers are allowed to board here, they don't (unless anyone here has seen it happen).

Even though it says on the timetable, I would bet that a lot of people don't actually know that Dobson Street is a bus stop they can board at, as they will just assume the 21 leaves from Eldon Square.

(15 Sep 2013, 8:00 pm)eezypeazy wrote As soon as a driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, he'll reset the ticket machine ready for the start of the next trip, or log out of the ticket machine if the bus is finishing. Equally, as soon as the driver has passed the last possible boarding point for that trip, and before the first possible boarding point of the next trip, he'll reset the blind (both, of course, when it's safe to do so!).

Personally, I think it's important to do the blind well before you reach a bus station such as Eldon Square - eg., GNE 31 and 11 interwork, as do 47 and 32. Imagine the chaos if a Toonlink arrived showing "Newcastle 32", pulled on to a stand and then became "Blackhall Mill 47".

On the question of resetting ticket machines... from what I've seen, it seems to be GNE practice that when a driver changeover happens during a service (at Blaydon, for example), the incoming driver collects any fares before signing out of the machine and swapping with his mate. Is this the norm with other operators, or do things vary from company to company (eg, Stagecoach on Stamfordham Road opposite Slatyford depot?).

I've got to agree, it's so confusing when a drifter Versa's pulls in a 42 City Centre then becomes 60 Parkside. And I've seen recently a driver pulled in as 2A Sunderland into Stand C at Park Lane then whilst pulled in turned into 61 Murton but no one saw and weren't going to board until I asked the driver and told passengers (I was aware of the Interworkings hence I asked the driver).

(15 Sep 2013, 9:42 pm)CatsFast101 wrote I've got to agree, it's so confusing when a drifter Versa's pulls in a 42 City Centre then becomes 60 Parkside. And I've seen recently a driver pulled in as 2A Sunderland into Stand C at Park Lane then whilst pulled in turned into 61 Murton but no one saw and weren't going to board until I asked the driver and told passengers (I was aware of the Interworkings hence I asked the driver).

Conversely, drivers changing their destinations on Ryhope Road is just not acceptable - is it? I noted a few weeks back that I witnessed drivers changing their destination blinds (61 and 2A) at Southmoor School. I'd say there was another good 1.5 miles or so from that school to Park Lane - and there are 3-4 more stops along the way. Passengers know their service as "61 SUNDERLAND" not "2A WASHINGTON", so they're not going to stick their hands out.

I believe the pilot mentioned something similar, of drivers changing their destinations at The Cedars - just a minute or so away from Southmoor School.

Drivers usually get layover time, and (especially in the case of Gateshead Interchange or Park Lane Interchange) I do believe destinations should be changed whilst laying over. As we've already mentioned, this is not particularly appropriate at Eldon Sq as buses tend to go straight to their stands. In this case, at the final stop, a bus driver should stop and change his destination blind there. If the bus does not stop at Blackett Street, Percy Street whilst waiting at the traffic lights would also be appropriate. Changing as early as Gateshead (or even before then) just isn't acceptable really, in my eyes at least.

Lime timetables have been put on buses. Good to see that GNE did still focus on the cycle friendly element of the services!

(16 Sep 2013, 6:51 am)Daniel wrote Conversely, drivers changing their destinations on Ryhope Road is just not acceptable - is it? I noted a few weeks back that I witnessed drivers changing their destination blinds (61 and 2A) at Southmoor School. I'd say there was another good 1.5 miles or so from that school to Park Lane - and there are 3-4 more stops along the way. Passengers know their service as "61 SUNDERLAND" not "2A WASHINGTON", so they're not going to stick their hands out.

I believe the pilot mentioned something similar, of drivers changing their destinations at The Cedars - just a minute or so away from Southmoor School.

Drivers usually get layover time, and (especially in the case of Gateshead Interchange or Park Lane Interchange) I do believe destinations should be changed whilst laying over. As we've already mentioned, this is not particularly appropriate at Eldon Sq as buses tend to go straight to their stands. In this case, at the final stop, a bus driver should stop and change his destination blind there. If the bus does not stop at Blackett Street, Percy Street whilst waiting at the traffic lights would also be appropriate. Changing as early as Gateshead (or even before then) just isn't acceptable really, in my eyes at least.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of changing early, as aureolin and myself have mentioned, data for late running services is being manipulated (deliberately or not) and when customers query a service, they are left annoyed by Customer Services essentially calling the passenger a liar and denying the service was running late.
All because the ticket machine was changed earlier than it should have been.

(16 Sep 2013, 8:05 am)citaro5284 wrote Who is saying the ticket machine is changed early.....blinds yes. Remember if a machine is changed early and the machine is set for the next trip, and a passenger boards and wants to buy a ticket, how can the driver issue a ticket - simple answer is they cannot. You also can see what time the first transaction was issued and the last (to the second), so if they have still changed their machine early you can still see if the service was late running. No data for late running services is manipulated using ETM's - some people would just like to think it does

Aureolin gave an example of it happening to him...

(15 Sep 2013, 6:04 pm)aureolin wrote ... I've caught the 2C a number of times from Wear Industrial Estate at Washington, and it's already had "Sunderland" set. Despite it being headed towards the Galleries. The only pattern is that it tends to be when the bus is running considerably late.

...but in the above examples, it's always shown on my Key card as me boarding a bus towards Sunderland....

I think I may have an explanation of this....

IIRC, the 2A/2C was run as a 'circular' around Washington? I don't know if it still is, but this would explain why a 2C, heading towards the Galleries, may already have shown 2A Sunderland on the blind. I can see how this might have been confusing...

And re the 'key' card: It's my understanding that the 2A/2C fare table is presented as a 'circular' to and from Sunderland Interchange on the ticket machines. Again, IIRC, using a key card will show the furthest point you can travel to on that card on that fare table, hence travel limit comes up as Sunderland, even though the driver will (I'm guessing) have to change the machine at Washington for the inbound trip.

I can't see how we can then make a leap to using this to 'manipulate data' to hide late running, though, as the last and first use of the TM will be recorded before the end of one trip and at the start of another.

You can reset the ticket machine, but you can't hide!

Recently on GNE facebook page:

Due to a police incident, services #M1 and #71 are unable to run via Fence Houses. M1 is also unable to serve Bournmoor due to diversion