(15 Dec 2013, 5:57 pm)Dan wrote And painting it into centenary livery wasn't a waste of paint?
I said in May how it was a required vehicle by the end of the year...

Well I think the centenary livery as a company livery is better than the Northern Livery and is also better than slapping a GNE logo on the side.

(15 Dec 2013, 6:23 pm)CatsFast101 wrote Well I think the centenary livery as a company livery is better than the Northern Livery and is also better than slapping a GNE logo on the side.

And a lot more expensive too!

(15 Dec 2013, 6:32 pm)Dan wrote And a lot more expensive too!

But if it is that much more expensive, surely they should keep it on 8319 to get some value out of it?

(15 Dec 2013, 7:10 pm)andreos1 wrote But if it is that much more expensive, surely they should keep it on 8319 to get some value out of it?

When it's a required vehicle?

Fair enough if it was only a spare (as would have been the case if "SimpliCity" only included services 39 and 42), and that way it could have been used on other services when not required on either of the aforementioned services in the "SimpliCity" network.
Had that of been the case, I'd have been all for leaving 8319 in its current centenary livery... As it's not, seems a little silly to leave it in that livery.

Arriva was mentioned in a previous post...
Arriva and Go North East are two completely different companies. As most of Arriva's network is not 'branded' in any way whatsoever and the majority of their services are allocated corporate liveried vehicles, their customers do not familiarise their bus service with a specific name or identity like Go North East's passengers do.

(15 Dec 2013, 7:24 pm)Dan wrote When it's a required vehicle?

Fair enough if it was only a spare (as would have been the case if "SimpliCity" only included services 39 and 42), and that way it could have been used on other services when not required on either of the aforementioned services in the "SimpliCity" network.
Had that of been the case, I'd have been all for leaving 8319 in its current centenary livery... As it's not, seems a little silly to leave it in that livery.

Arriva was mentioned in a previous post...
Arriva and Go North East are two completely different companies. As most of Arriva's network is not 'branded' in any way whatsoever and the majority of their services are allocated corporate liveried vehicles, their customers do not familiarise their bus service with a specific name or identity like Go North East's passengers do.

Yeah, I know they are different companies.

Having 8319 stay in the expensive centenary livery isn't going to cause any harm, isn't going to cause confusion nor take anything away from the Simplicity brand, particularly when there are any amount of other red (or whatever other colour) running on and off route.

If those vinyls are going, then I presume every other trace of the hundred year anniversary is being removed from every other single vehicle it is on, across the fleet too?
Quite a lot of expense and work, that could be viewed as unneccesary.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:03 pm)andreos1 wrote Having 8319 stay in the expensive centenary livery isn't going to cause any harm, isn't going to cause confusion nor take anything away from the Simplicity brand, particularly when there are any amount of other red (or whatever other colour) running on and off route.

But you're diluting the "SimpliCity" brand, as we discussed not so long ago.
20% of its PVR would see a red vehicle allocated... What's the point, when there's no reason behind it?

(15 Dec 2013, 8:03 pm)andreos1 wrote If those vinyls are going, then I presume every other trace of the hundred year anniversary is being removed from every other single vehicle it is on, across the fleet too?
Quite a lot of expense and work, that could be viewed as unneccesary.

Should be...

I celebrate my birthday in October, not a few months after then.
Similarly, Go North East celebrate their centenary year in 2013, not 2014 or 2015 - especially when the vehicle that they are using for this celebration should be branded for the service it is allocated to.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:10 pm)Dan wrote But you're diluting the "SimpliCity" brand, as we discussed not so long ago.
20% of its PVR would see a red vehicle allocated... What's the point, when there's no reason behind it?


Should be...

I celebrate my birthday in October, not a few months after then.
Similarly, Go North East celebrate their centenary year in 2013, not 2014 or 2015.

I agree, it is possibly diluting the brand, but so does every other red bus that appears on a branded route.

However, when it comes to a hundred year anniversary relating to a business, I feel that having all of these celebrations, books, events etc and then forgetting all about it a few months down the line, seems to defeat the point of doing it all in the first place.

Granted, they aren't going to celebrate their 101'st Birthday, but to conciously erase any sign of their promotions (incurring the expense that goes with it) after spending money telling everyone how old they were...

(15 Dec 2013, 8:20 pm)andreos1 wrote I agree, it is possibly diluting the brand, but so does every other red bus that appears on a branded route.

However, when it comes to a hundred year anniversary relating to a business, I feel that having all of these celebrations, books, events etc and then forgetting all about it a few months down the line, seems to defeat the point of doing it all in the first place.

Granted, they aren't going to celebrate their 101'st Birthday, but to conciously erase any sign of their promotions (incurring the expense that goes with it) after spending money telling everyone how old they were...

Obvious difference being that, when red buses are allocated, it means that the branded vehicle was not available (hopefully due to the bus being VOR, rather than anything else).

If 8319 was to remain in its current livery, Go North East would be knowingly allocating a red bus to a branded service each day, for no reason other than to please a few nostalgic enthusiasts. 8319's livery will not increase ridership, reliability or punctuation - why would the average customer give a toss? Granted - some may, but they'd be in the minority.
Go North East have benefited from the publicity of the acts they've carried out to celebrate their centenary year, but they needn't dwell on it.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:10 pm)Dan wrote But you're diluting the "SimpliCity" brand, as we discussed not so long ago.
20% of its PVR would see a red vehicle allocated... What's the point, when there's no reason behind it?


Should be...

I celebrate my birthday in October, not a few months after then.
Similarly, Go North East celebrate their centenary year in 2013, not 2014 or 2015 - especially when the vehicle that they are using for this celebration should be branded for the service it is allocated to.

Think it's a bit different your birthday to the centenary of a bus company! It's like suggesting that London should remove every single bit of London 2012 reference, it's a momentous occasion. Obviously a bus company and the Olympics are also very different. I think keeping the centenary livery would be a very smart move. It certainly something which stands out and I think it could be toned down slightly to save costs a bit more. But I think Northern has a perception of knackered, old, probably going to break down reputation so something a bit more positive would be a good idea in my opinion.

I think 8319 should be repainted into SimpliCity, however I'd love to see the centenary brand kept on. I think it would be very good.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:32 pm)CatsFast101 wrote Think it's a bit different your birthday to the centenary of a bus company!

Obviously, but the point was in regards to the dates...

(15 Dec 2013, 8:32 pm)CatsFast101 wrote But I think Northern has a perception of knackered, old, probably going to break down reputation so something a bit more positive would be a good idea in my opinion.

Hey, isn't that the reason why we're seeing plain red buses return from repaint at the moment, which we've discussed previously? You know, the introduction of 'Go North East', as opposed to 'Northern'...

(15 Dec 2013, 8:29 pm)Dan wrote Obvious difference being that, when red buses are allocated, it means that the branded vehicle was not available (hopefully due to the bus being VOR, rather than anything else).

If 8319 was to remain in its current livery, Go North East would be knowingly allocating a red bus to a branded service each day, for no reason other than to please a few nostalgic enthusiasts. 8319's livery will not increase ridership, reliability or punctuation - why would the average customer give a toss? Granted - some may, but they'd be in the minority.
Go North East have benefited from the publicity of the acts they've carried out to celebrate their centenary year, but they needn't dwell on it.

Is it about enthusiasts giving a toss or the ordinary passenger?
Who benefitted during the celebrations this year?

A business needs to keep an identity that is recognised and established.
Constantly changing names, brands, routes, numbers and colours doesn't do that (particularly in Sunderland).

Northern has been established 100 years, Go North East as a brand about 15? (give or take).
The brands on individual services, 6 or 7 years since they were introduced - with regular updates, changes and temporary ones since, which have all incurred extra cost.

Having one modern vehicle showing that despite all of the marketing, that the company is proud of its history, heritage and routes - is certainly worth keeping, from a business perspective more than anything else.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:56 pm)andreos1 wrote Is it about enthusiasts giving a toss or the ordinary passenger?
Who benefitted during the celebrations this year?

A business needs to keep an identity that is recognised and established.
Constantly changing names, brands, routes, numbers and colours doesn't do that (particularly in Sunderland).

Northern has been established 100 years, Go North East as a brand about 15? (give or take).
The brands on individual services, 6 or 7 years since they were introduced - with regular updates, changes and temporary ones since, which have all incurred extra cost.

Having one modern vehicle showing that despite all of the marketing, that the company is proud of its history, heritage and routes - is certainly worth keeping, from a business perspective more than anything else.

What does 8319 do from a business perspective, what does it bring to the table in terms of revenue or passenger growth - I would think very little.

Like you say the brands are changed or refreshed (normally every 5 years), so I see little benefit for keeping it in its present livery to be honest.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:56 pm)andreos1 wrote Is it about enthusiasts giving a toss or the ordinary passenger?
Who benefitted during the celebrations this year?

Go North East benefited from the publicity which came with the company's centenary year, owing to the marketing and promotion which came with the acts of celebration carried out this year.

One of the acts of celebration was to invest in one hundred new buses for the one hundredth year, as we all know. Passengers benefited from the centenary year in that respect, but I can't think of any other ways they would have benefited from Go North East celebrating their centenary year?

(15 Dec 2013, 8:56 pm)andreos1 wrote A business needs to keep an identity that is recognised and established.
Constantly changing names, brands, routes, numbers and colours doesn't do that (particularly in Sunderland).

Northern has been established 100 years, Go North East as a brand about 15? (give or take).
The brands on individual services, 6 or 7 years since they were introduced - with regular updates, changes and temporary ones since, which have all incurred extra cost.

It does, but what if your identity has a reputation for being old, tired and unreliable? Surely Go North East, as a company, will want to get rid of that reputation? They will achieve this by purchasing 80 brand new vehicles each year (including brand new 'spare' buses, similar to Optare Versas 5389/90, to phase out older 'spare' buses).
All of this should be recognised as actions of Go North East rather than Northern, as Go North East will not use the Northern name for marketing and promotion anymore.

(15 Dec 2013, 8:56 pm)andreos1 wrote Having one modern vehicle showing that despite all of the marketing, that the company is proud of its history, heritage and routes - is certainly worth keeping, from a business perspective more than anything else.

While I do agree in some respects, this vehicle should not be a vehicle which is required for a branded service. It should be a modern vehicle which is spare.
That was the point.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:05 pm)citaro5284 wrote What does 8319 do from a business perspective, what does it bring to the table in terms of revenue or passenger growth - I would think very little.

Like you say the brands are changed or refreshed (normally every 5 years), so I see little benefit for keeping it in its present livery to be honest.

This year, it reinforced the anniversary celebrations.
Going forward, reinforcing the roots of a company that can't decide on its own identity?

(15 Dec 2013, 9:08 pm)Dan wrote Go North East benefited from the publicity which came with the company's centenary year, owing to the marketing and promotion which came with the acts of celebration carried out this year.

One of the acts of celebration was to invest in one hundred new buses for the one hundredth year, as we all know. Passengers benefited from the centenary year in that respect, but I can't think of any other ways they would have benefited from Go North East celebrating their centenary year?


It does, but what if your identity has a reputation for being old, tired and unreliable? Surely Go North East, as a company, will want to get rid of that reputation? They will achieve this by purchasing 80 brand new vehicles each year (including brand new 'spare' buses, similar to Optare Versas 5389/90, to phase out older 'spare' buses).
All of this should be recognised as actions of Go North East rather than Northern, as Go North East will not use the Northern name for marketing and promotion anymore.


While I do agree in some respects, this vehicle should not be a vehicle which is required for a branded service. It should be a modern vehicle which is spare.
That was the point.

How often have Campbells soup or Tag Heur changed their branding, logos etc?
www.businesszone.co.uk/topic/marketing-pr/branding-disasters-rebranding-british-airways?ref=ukbf is an interesting read.

One of the acts of celebration was to tie it in with 100 new vehicles yes.
Coincidence, marketing or anything else?

The Northern brand is an established brand, which people recognise.
It is no-ones fault but GNE's, that the name is now associated with old, unreliable, dirty vehicles.

By the looks of things GNE will all be euro 5/6 by 2016.

Glad to see we getting around 160 buses by 2016? Think that was the date by the PDF.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:18 pm)andreos1 wrote The Northern brand is an established brand, which people recognise.

Does everyone recognise the 'Northern' name? If I wasn't an enthusiast, I wouldn't.
Older people who were brought up with Northern do, and it'll be very difficult to change the name which they use ('You can't teach an old dog new tricks' comes to mind)...
Go North East need to focus on the younger generation, who will use their buses for many years to come.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:23 pm)Dan wrote Does everyone recognise the 'Northern' name? If I wasn't an enthusiast, I wouldn't.
Older people who were brought up with Northern do, and it'll be very difficult to change the name which they use ('You can't teach an old dog new tricks' comes to mind)...
Go North East need to focus on the younger generation, who will use their buses for many years to come.

According to the GNE patter at the time, it was chosen as a brand, because it was one people recognised.

No need for fancy marketing, advertising or coffee promos letting people know about the 'brand' either.

Heinz have adapted their products to suit younger tastes.
Certainly haven't had a re-brand or relaunched their beans as He Be Ns or changed the colour of the tin to a garish pink either.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:32 pm)andreos1 wrote According to the GNE patter at the time, it was chosen as a brand, because it was one people recognised.

No need for fancy marketing, advertising or coffee promos letting people know about the 'brand' either.

Heinz have adapted their products to suit younger tastes.
Certainly haven't had a re-brand or relaunched their beans as He Be Ns or changed the colour of the tin to a garish pink either.

In which case, why was the name changed to Go North East 15 years ago?

(15 Dec 2013, 9:34 pm)Dan wrote In which case, why was the name changed to Go North East 15 years ago?

No idea, you will have to ask the people who decided on the name change at the time and decided to move away from the likes of the Wear Buses, VFM brands etc.

There will have been some justification of it, just as there was when the Pink Panther, Magic Roundabout, Black Cats brands were launched.

That link I put on before is genuinely a good read on brands that have adapted (keeping close to their roots) Heinz, Coca Cola, Kelloggs etc and the changes that haven't worked quite so well.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:41 pm)andreos1 wrote No idea, you will have to ask the people who decided on the name change at the time and decided to move away from the likes of the Wear Buses, VFM brands etc.

There will have been some justification of it, just as there was when the Pink Panther, Magic Roundabout, Black Cats brands were launched.

That link I put on before is genuinely a good read on brands that have adapted (keeping close to their roots) Heinz, Coca Cola, Kelloggs etc and the changes that haven't worked quite so well.

They should have kept the local identities in my opinion

(15 Dec 2013, 9:41 pm)andreos1 wrote No idea, you will have to ask the people who decided on the name change at the time and decided to move away from the likes of the Wear Buses, VFM brands etc.

There will have been some justification of it, just as there was when the Pink Panther, Magic Roundabout, Black Cats brands were launched.

That link I put on before is genuinely a good read on brands that have adapted (keeping close to their roots) Heinz, Coca Cola, Kelloggs etc and the changes that haven't worked quite so well.

United was changed to Arriva
Northern was changed to Go North East
Busways was changed to Stagecoach in xxxx

It has happened with each of the big three... You don't see Stagecoach making a big thing about its former roots (Busways), and very rarely do you see Arriva making a big thing of their former roots. Of course Arriva have two branded vehicles, but they too have moved away from their original brand.
I think it is time for GNE to move on too. Properly this time, making a good effort to prove how good Go North East is rather than Northern. It's a fresh start.

(15 Dec 2013, 10:02 pm)Dan wrote United was changed to Arriva
Northern was changed to Go North East
Busways was changed to Stagecoach in xxxx

It has happened with each of the big three... You don't see Stagecoach making a big thing about its former roots (Busways), and very rarely do you see Arriva making a big thing of their former roots. Of course Arriva have two branded vehicles, but they too have moved away from their original brand.
I think it is time for GNE to move on too. Properly this time, making a good effort to prove how good Go North East is rather than Northern. It's a fresh start.

I'm not going to split hairs or go into details, but everyone will be aware of the differences between GNE, Stagecoach and Arriva, particularly when the latter two have a uniform brand across the UK, whilst each part of the Go-ahead Group has its own regional identity (including historic identities).

What I will say, is that GNE in whatever guise/s it decides to use across 2014, needs to be established and established over a period of time.
It needs to stick with an identity that passengers can understand and relate to (8319?), rather than changing its self, like a confused teenager trying to fit in with the cool kids at school.

One of the points raised in that article, was about a brand being unique and one which can be recognised.
Time for the company to do just that.

(15 Dec 2013, 9:32 pm)andreos1 wrote According to the GNE patter at the time, it was chosen as a brand, because it was one people recognised.

No need for fancy marketing, advertising or coffee promos letting people know about the 'brand' either.

But times change, that was OK back then, but not so now and of course if you get your own way with QCS another big rebranding exercise starts and who is going to foot that bill.....oh yes, the taxpayers of Tyne and Wear.

Picking up a couple of points,
Northern is a ruined brand. Why? Go North East. They've turned the northern vehicles into unreliable, liable to break down, dirty, rattling northern buses. With my cousin actually commenting that he was on a 'posh northern bus' the other day (I believe it was a ex-MetroLink solar, not that posh but compared to an SPD!).
I personally think that a revised, more cost effective version of the centenary brand would be a very good idea for a new company livery. Why not celebrate 100 years of providing bus services? It can't be massively costly can it?! It's only one large vinyl on a red bus!
The thing is does branding improve passenger numbers, satisfaction and repeat business? I'd think no. Who really refers to a bus as its brand- I can't say I refer to any service as it brand name expect may be the fab 56 but the 56 is more commonly. It begs the question of is branding really a good idea? Personally I like branding and I'd brand most services but does the average passenger really care? I'm not so sure. The only thing I think it does help in, passengers easily know the standard of service, they know the angel/drifter has nice new buses which don't break down often rather than things like the 14 and 71 which use whatever is going spare.

(15 Dec 2013, 10:30 pm)citaro5284 wrote But times change, that was OK back then, but not so now and of course if you get your own way with QCS another big rebranding exercise starts and who is going to foot that bill.....oh yes, the taxpayers of Tyne and Wear.

Who says it isn't ok now?
Have the company asked their passengers what their views are?
After all, audience and customer views must be paramount to a rebrand...

As a kid donkeys years ago, I was asked to take part in a survey about the rebrand of Campbells Meatballs when out shopping in Chester le Street with the folks one Saturday.

The company wanted to know what consumer perception was of the old versus proposed labelling.

If an 8 year old kids views are important regarding the labelling on a tin of processed meat in tomato sauce, then surely views of the passengers of a bus are too?

We're talking basic market research here...

(15 Dec 2013, 9:18 pm)andreos1 wrote How often have Campbells soup or Tag Heur changed their branding, logos etc?
www.businesszone.co.uk/topic/marketing-pr/branding-disasters-rebranding-british-airways?ref=ukbf is an interesting read.

One of the acts of celebration was to tie it in with 100 new vehicles yes.
Coincidence, marketing or anything else?

The Northern brand is an established brand, which people recognise.
It is no-ones fault but GNE's, that the name is now associated with old, unreliable, dirty vehicles.

I associate Go North East with the tatty old red & blue vehicles on the second rate routes, when the more important services were getting newer, smart, branded buses. The Northern name was reinstated only two or three years ago for the newly painted red non branded vehicles, so I link Go North East with tatty buses and Northern with a bit better ones. But Northern is the traditional name and the company would be advised to keep that on the unbranded vehicles rather than Go North East which means nowt to most people. They don't even use the name Go North East on their website but simply go.com. I reckon ordinary people identify firstly with the name Northern, secondly with their local route brand, and only last with Go North East. The south coast companies of Go Ahead keep their traditional names.

Surely on the brand point it would have been appropriate to add the legend ' Go Ahead ' above the Northern logo a good mix of history Northern as I remember from being a child , Go Ahead from de regulation and maybe relief the red with white mud section and roof , that should get you away from the memory of tatty corporate livery memories

Compared to other similar size operators, the Go Ahead group always struck me as an organisation suffering from an identity crisis.

Just for the younger ones or those unfamiliar with the brands, colours and whatever else we have seen in Tyne & Wear, Co Durham and Northumberland over the years since de-reg... Here is a rough guide.

Late 70's - 1986.
Northern and twpte contracted services saw mainly two different colours.
Northern Poppy Red or Yellow and White horizontal banding.

1986 - early 90's.
Go-ahead Northern: Red and White horizontal banding around the bus.
Introduction of local identities above front wheel to reflect operating area towards end of this era.
Small strides made with marketing individual services, with introduction of Big Orange and Supershuttle brands.

Early - late 90's.
Divisions of the company following strike action, giving local identities such as Wear Buses (Grey and Green), VFM (mixture of blues), Go Gateshead (adaptation of Go-ahead Northern with blue diagnonal band), Northern (adaptation of previous colour scheme) Coastline, etc. There were also adaptations with the Wear Express and Superliner fleet colour schemes.

Late 90's - 2006.
Introduction of Go North East and another new colour scheme of yellows, reds, blues after initial Go Wear Buses, Go Ok Travel, Go Xpress idea was scrapped..
There were two versions of this colour scheme, with a slight variation of it, on a couple of the ex-airport DAFs.

2006 - present.
An ever changing array of colours, brands (similar to ideas inspired by other operators in other parts of the country), standard fleet livery, reintroduction of Northern, axing of Northern and reintroduction of Go North East.

If that isn't the sign of a company suffering from an identity crisis, I'm not sure what it is.

Whereas United/Northumbria had their own identities from 86 until takeover and two brand refreshes as Arriva.

Busways had a trim unique to their patch, stuck with the twpte colours and have since had a couple of brand refreshes since the Stagecoach takeover in the late 90's.

The company needs to find a scheme and stick with it.

I just wish I could have bought shares in a bus paint company pre-deregulation!