(25 Feb 2020, 7:01 pm)mb134 wrote See I think this is something that is hugely overlooked when it comes to Arriva, at least the Northumbria operations. Since the huge service changes at the start of the last decade, virtually everything has remained the same in terms of routes and frequencies. 

While there have been some alterations, such as the X20 up to Alnwick, the Blyth X30, 43 to Morpeth, by and large the (main) routes are the same. 

Then with frequencies, people know that if you're wanting to get from Morpeth to Newcastle there's a bus every 15 minutes, Bedlington to Newcastle every 10, Blyth to Morpeth/Ashington every 20 etc. While passenger numbers are falling across the country, this network stability is something that they need to take advantage of. If people know where the buses go and how often they are, improving vehicle quality on more of them may be the final push to get more people out of cars.

This exactly, it's just stupid to chop and change things when you don't need too. If it doesn't work then you ending up with starting to butcher it which has happened with GNE in North Tyneside and Sunderland and also Stagecoach in Sunderland. Every time there's service changes lately it's reducting in services renumbering things, extending it here then reversing it. Extending another service then that not working and all the time numbers are going down.

You just have to look at the 11 for the prime example of it.

317 for years doing the same route.
Renumbered 17.
Extended to Cramlington to replace something 319? (that route is as bad if not worse).
Changed to 11 and removed from Holy Cross and extended to Newcastle.
Cut back to Wallsend again.
Now supposedly going back into Holy Cross (again) so full circle back to square one.

But in the same time it's been a 20 minute service at times down to 30 minutes and gone from full size singles which used to be busy to minibuses.

It's a similar story in Sunderland in the Silksworth area, every change there's an extension here, a cut there then another extension here. People get sick of it and just what's the point if the bus might not run again in a few weeks.

(25 Feb 2020, 8:38 pm)L469 YVK wrote Well technically, it's every 20 mins if you take into account the 5/15 gaps as most passengers will end up using the X22 as that comes first. 

To be fair, Arriva ran a pretty stable network over the recent years. However, they do need serious fleet investment though. It would make sense now that the E400 comes with a 'ZF' stop-start option to replace the E400s on the X21 / X22 with 7541-50 to Blyth for the 308 (with 7551/52 as spares). X10 /X11 would also be another prime candidate for new vehicles too.

Going back to the Coast Road argument, it would be 6 and 2 3's either the 306 & 308 remaining at a 15 minute frequency or, reducing to a 20 minute frequency but both remaining on the Coast Road no longer serving Battle Hill Drive. However, with the news that GNE are dropping the 19, many passengers will be relying upon the X6 connection in Newcastle, which of course would either have to be withdrawn or worked using scholars / split shifts if the 306 & 308 was reduced to every 20 minutes. I think given the circumstances surrounding the 19, ANE will most likely stick with a 15 minute frequency on both services for the time being.

The next new buses for the X21/22 will be 2025 at least and the 308 around 2023 imo. Neither routes need new buses atm. If you buy new buses for those where do the Gemini's go? Get sold? There only full size buses are the 3 commanders, the few ex London buses dotted around and the Scanias (not urgent) that really need replacing and something like the X66/X67 in Darlington deserve investment over any Northumbria routes or the Yarm buses which haven't had new buses in years. The minibus fleet is where the investment is needed more to get arid of the darts and start getting the solos off (12 years).

The only 3 routes in Northumbria which I would say should get investment are the 35, 57/A and the 685. 35 / 57 / 57A to see off some darts and fleet standardisation and 685 because the Scania's are past it.

Touched a nerve there with my "couple of quid" remark! To be honest I'm all for service rationalisation; little point in running buses just in case the odd individual decides to have a look out and aren't these just the very people who are up on their soapbox when the latest round of service revisions hits the press? Arriva will have crunched the numbers and undoubtedly listened to the requests; I believe that Service 81 did go out to local publicity and obviously it hasn't attracted enough feedback to warrant a change of the plans.

In comparing my day in Newcastle with GNE against a day here in Teesside with Arriva it was just a 'tounge in cheek' comment to be honest and I don't know enough about the operations on Tyneside to say more.

See the Facebook announcements a couple of days ago? Durham buses off for hours on end as they didn't have any replacement buses! Abysmal service.

(28 Feb 2020, 8:02 pm)scanialover wrote Touched a nerve there with my "couple of quid" remark! To be honest I'm all for service rationalisation; little point in running buses just in case the odd individual decides to have a look out and aren't these just the very people who are up on their soapbox when the latest round of service revisions hits the press? Arriva will have crunched the numbers and undoubtedly listened to the requests; I believe that Service 81 did go out to local publicity and obviously it hasn't attracted enough feedback to warrant a change of the plans.

In comparing my day in Newcastle with GNE against a day here in Teesside with Arriva it was just a 'tounge in cheek' comment to be honest and I don't know enough about the operations on Tyneside to say more.

Isn't this what the point of the Teesflex is for communities like these instead of having buses running there for no reason. Obviously the 2 communities complaining here aren't part of it as they're in North Yorkshire but surely it would be better for NYCC to try and get them in the Redcar and Cleveland zone if possible rather than having Arriva without subsidy running them.

To be fair I think it depends on the depot as each of them have there good areas and some not so good.

GNE: Good (Gateshead, Consett, Chester Le Street, Hexham), Average (Washington, Sunderland (Just)), Not so good (North Tyneside)
Arriva: Good (SE Northumberland), Average (Jesmond, Darlington, Durham (Just)) - can't comment on other areas but Redcar sounds poor with Temsas on long distance routes etc.
Stagecoach: Good (Newcastle), Average (Sunderland, South Shields) - can't comment on other areas.

I must say I've used the X12 a few times and the state of some of the buses (I believe Durham) are shockingly bad. Getting off a Blyth Gemini and then onto a X12 one (when they had them) it felt they were two different buses - just damn right dirty and tatty in general. I believe the X12 one was a 61 plate and the Blyth one 59 so was actually newer aswell.

(28 Feb 2020, 9:10 pm)Cock Robin wrote See the Facebook announcements a couple of days ago? Durham buses off for hours on end as they didn't have any replacement buses! Abysmal service.

Would that have been Monday when many roads around Durham were impassable due to the snow?

(28 Feb 2020, 8:02 pm)scanialover wrote Touched a nerve there with my "couple of quid" remark! To be honest I'm all for service rationalisation; little point in running buses just in case the odd individual decides to have a look out and aren't these just the very people who are up on their soapbox when the latest round of service revisions hits the press? Arriva will have crunched the numbers and undoubtedly listened to the requests; I believe that Service 81 did go out to local publicity and obviously it hasn't attracted enough feedback to warrant a change of the plans.

In comparing my day in Newcastle with GNE against a day here in Teesside with Arriva it was just a 'tounge in cheek' comment to be honest and I don't know enough about the operations on Tyneside to say more.

Lets be honest who's going to miss the 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley other than a few ENCTS passengers (which NYCC reimbursement is shockingly bad anyway) and the odd fare payer? It's a shame, but it's clearly not viable and most other parts of the route are covered by other options anyway. Great Ayton still has the 28a which offers an hourly service to Stokesley which more than covers the demand there.

(28 Feb 2020, 10:08 pm)tyresmoke wrote Lets be honest who's going to miss the 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley other than a few ENCTS passengers (which NYCC reimbursement is shockingly bad anyway) and the odd fare payer? It's a shame, but it's clearly not viable and most other parts of the route are covered by other options anyway. Great Ayton still has the 28a which offers an hourly service to Stokesley which more than covers the demand there.

It is a shame about the 81, years ago it was run with double deckers and now being cut back further.

Your point about the ENCTS pass holders is a valid one, and we never seem to hear any criticism of this scheme. Maybe if it was made public how much an operator gets from the council per journey made, it would be easier for people to accept why some buses can run at a loss.

Then we have the ridiculous situation in our area of yet more subsidy to that scheme in terms of the 30p charge pre 9.30am. When money is tight, why do councils feel the need to offer this?

For me, I’d make it consistent nationwide that these passes are off peak only, and even go further : charge a small fee per journey to OAPs, and ring fence that cash to be used locally to support later buses and routes which will never be commercially viable and need subsidies. More buses is better for everyone, and that would be a way to get some more cash to do it.

(28 Feb 2020, 9:52 pm)BusLoverMum wrote Would that have been Monday when many roads around Durham were impassable due to the snow?

No it wasn't Monday

Nope, I with Tyresmoke on this one. Effectively penalising the majority - charging a fee per journey on the concessionary scheme - to please, and encourage, the minority is really not a workable solution. Service 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley has been losing money for years and who wants to travel late in the evening and run the risks posed by some of the undesirables that make this idea untenable. How many attacks have there being on buses, drivers and passengers recently? What I can't understand is why Arriva are apparently planning to enhance certain routes in the face of this.

Arriva Dormanstown/Whitby have a fleet of double deck vehicles, 7401-6, 7609/10 and 7424/5 (?). 10 vehicles in all. Why then are we all being shoehorned on to a clapped out VDL 1439 on the 1120 journey from Middlesbrough (29/02/2020). It just doesn't make sense!

(28 Feb 2020, 10:08 pm)tyresmoke wrote Lets be honest who's going to miss the 81 between Guisborough and Stokesley other than a few ENCTS passengers (which NYCC reimbursement is shockingly bad anyway) and the odd fare payer? It's a shame, but it's clearly not viable and most other parts of the route are covered by other options anyway. Great Ayton still has the 28a which offers an hourly service to Stokesley which more than covers the demand there.

'Not enough money to be made, so screw them. We can save money elsewhere'

Yet at the same time, we hear tales of operators complaining about traffic and congestion. 
One service being cut or reduced can only have a negative knock-on effect in those areas and across the network.
Those ENCTS passengers and fare payers who have alternative transport are only going to add to any traffic issues in the area. Not reduce it.

It would be a good idea if Tees Flex was extended to cover Stokesley, or to extend the 80/89 to Guisborough.
Let's not forget the Moorsbus M4 will still run between Guisborough and Stokesley...

Further to my earlier post, it looked as though Streetlite 1573 was about to take over from VDL 1439 onwards to Scarborough. Now we are on a rather sprightly 7426 - don't know what these are - for the run back to Middlesbrough; I'm impressed just how well 7426 is performing coming out of Whitby onto the Moors. My question remains though? Where are the BTL9's and why the use of single deck vehicles?

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Personally I don't get this TeesFlex idea and think the resources/funding could have been deployed differently. The 80/88? Still operated by Abbots I presume? Would probably fall under the same set of circumstances faced by Arriva. Didn't they try a service into Middlesbrough from Northallerton and that bit the dust.

Looks like 7403 has broken down on the X93 so the allocation is now: 1439, 1573, 7402, 7426, 7610. The reliability isn't the greatest, but hopefully can be improved before the summer.

Hopefully reliability can be improved ? The mind boggles with only one of the BTL9'S seemingly on the road. Where are the others??

(29 Feb 2020, 1:15 pm)S830OFT wrote It would be a good idea if Tees Flex was extended to cover Stokesley, or to extend the 80/89 to Guisborough.
Let's not forget the Moorsbus M4 will still run between Guisborough and Stokesley...

How often is the M4?  

I get the idea that Teesflex could step in, but why should they?
Why should Teesflex operate in places no longer covered by the big three, after they decide to take their ball home once they realise the service isn't showing the sort of figures they see as ideal? 
I genuinely think there shouldn't be any need for this sort of DRT service in the sorts of areas they're serving. They're not the wilds of Scotland or deepest darkest Wales. They're on the edges of major, built up areas. The sorts of areas that (if they were really adventurous enough), the big 3 could work in and provide a reliable, attractive service.

(29 Feb 2020, 3:43 pm)scanialover wrote Hopefully reliability can be improved ? The mind boggles with only one of the BTL9'S seemingly on the road. Where are the others??

It's normally about this time of year that the B9TLs are brought in for MOT and service prep, to ensure that they aren't taken off for planned servicing over the summer timetable.

Same thing happened last year I recall, a few missing for a few weeks, but then all back out and ready for Easter.

Two of the B7s are still in Durham? Is 7609 still at Blyth?

That did cross my mind and would seem logical. I'd guessed that there had been a breakdown (7403) this morning when 1439 was late arriving for the 1120 off Middlesbrough. Wasn't a bad substitute to be honest, would have struggled with the loading if it had been a Solo! On my return I was seriously impressed with the way 7426 dealt with the route, I don't remember being on a decker that could climb so athletically!

(29 Feb 2020, 8:44 pm)RobinHood wrote It's normally about this time of year that the B9TLs are brought in for MOT and service prep, to ensure that they aren't taken off for planned servicing over the summer timetable.

Same thing happened last year I recall, a few missing for a few weeks, but then all back out and ready for Easter.

Two of the B7s are still in Durham? Is 7609 still at Blyth?

7609 is back. Was on 62s with 7610 the other day.

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(29 Feb 2020, 12:39 pm)Andreos1 wrote 'Not enough money to be made, so screw them. We can save money elsewhere'

Yet at the same time, we hear tales of operators complaining about traffic and congestion. 
One service being cut or reduced can only have a negative knock-on effect in those areas and across the network.
Those ENCTS passengers and fare payers who have alternative transport are only going to add to any traffic issues in the area. Not reduce it.

Well said Andreos

(29 Feb 2020, 9:16 pm)scanialover wrote That did cross my mind and would seem logical. I'd guessed that there had been a breakdown (7403) this morning when 1439 was late arriving for the 1120 off Middlesbrough. Wasn't a bad substitute to be honest, would have struggled with the loading if it had been a Solo!  On my return I was seriously impressed with the way 7426 dealt with the route, I don't remember being on a decker that could climb so athletically!

I was on one of the ex bradford E400s on the 64, yesterday, and it barely flinched at the steep incline in Newton hall that has the E200s in full crawler mode. I'd have expected completely the opposite for such a big, heavy bus. Quite surprising.

Last time I caught the X93, we were on an ALX400 that didn't surprise us one bit and wheezed up the hills.