(10 May 2020, 11:21 am)Michael wrote No doubt it'll confuse a few people, will GNE passes still be accepted after this crisis is over, like previously.


Any news on passes been accepted on the 39/135/136 etc?

I'd imagine so - but I don't think most of the GCT drivers are even that bothered if it wasn't the case. Quite a few times I've seen people use Go North East day tickets or week tickets on the 335.

(10 May 2020, 2:21 pm)Tom wrote I'd imagine so - but I don't think most of the GCT drivers are even that bothered if it wasn't the case. Quite a few times I've seen people use Go North East day tickets or week tickets on the 335.

That's because all operators have agreed to let people use all tickets on their services throughout this crisis (but only on similar routes and in the area the ticket is for)... once that is dropped... will NEXUS allow GNE passes to be used on the 39, 42 etc

(10 May 2020, 2:21 pm)Tom wrote I'd imagine so - but I don't think most of the GCT drivers are even that bothered if it wasn't the case. Quite a few times I've seen people use Go North East day tickets or week tickets on the 335.

To be fair though, why should GCT be bothered? All they have done is win the contract and the work, which they're perfectly entitled to do. Its no skin of their nose that customers of another operator, are now unable to use their commercial ticket at certain times of the day. 

Its up to Nexus to ensure the public gets the best value for money out of contracts, but they also have a major role in promoting the use of public transport in Tyne and Wear. That includes making it both attractive and accessible. I'd argue that the price increase % that I quoted earlier in this thread is doing neither. 

Current travel patterns and ticket usage has to be a consideration in these deals, but that is up to Nexus and not GCT.

(10 May 2020, 2:27 pm)Michael wrote That's because all operators have agreed to let people use all tickets on their services throughout this crisis (but only on similar routes and in the area the ticket is for)... once that is dropped... will NEXUS allow GNE passes to be used on the 39, 42 etc

Who knows? It starts next Sunday yet still absolutely no communication from Nexus. Extremely poor.

(10 May 2020, 2:27 pm)Michael wrote That's because all operators have agreed to let people use all tickets on their services throughout this crisis (but only on similar routes and in the area the ticket is for)... once that is dropped... will NEXUS allow GNE passes to be used on the 39, 42 etc

I don't mean recently, I haven't been on a bus since the lockdown came into place. 
I remember something being said about operators having to pay Nexus to allow their tickets on a contract service operated by another company?

(10 May 2020, 3:54 pm)Tom wrote I don't mean recently, I haven't been on a bus since the lockdown came into place. 
I remember something being said about operators having to pay Nexus to allow their tickets on a contract service operated by another company?

Wasn't it an agreement between GCT and GNE to allow pre purchased GNE tickets on the services that GCT operate in the evening rather than it going through NEXUS, or at least that's how I understood it

(10 May 2020, 4:19 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Wasn't it an agreement between GCT and GNE to allow pre purchased GNE tickets on the services that GCT operate in the evening rather than it going through NEXUS, or at least that's how I understood it

It's Nexus' service so it would be fair to assume that they have the final say over ticketing arrangements.

(10 May 2020, 4:19 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Wasn't it an agreement between GCT and GNE to allow pre purchased GNE tickets on the services that GCT operate in the evening rather than it going through NEXUS, or at least that's how I understood it

Gne and nexus came to an agreement for the north tyneside services for gct to accept tickets

If ticket acceptance isn't in place on the services GCT are taking over next week after the crisis is over, there will be hell on across the board. Especially in Washington all barring one or two services going through the town are GNE

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Well that's because of zero competition

(11 May 2020, 3:53 pm)idiot wrote Well that's because of zero competition

Whatever the reason, if people pay £15 a week for a ticket that currently gets the on any GNE bus anywhere in Washington any time of the day, they're going to resent paying full fare after 7pm going forward.

It'll be the drivers who'll kop ths flak for it as usual

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(11 May 2020, 4:20 pm)6049 wrote Whatever the reason,  if people pay £15 a week for a ticket that currently gets the on any GNE bus anywhere in Washington any time of the day, they're going to resent paying full fare after 7pm going forward.

It'll be the drivers who'll kop ths flak for it as usual

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I think it's quite remarkable that the front line staff get the flak, when it's the powers that be in the various corporate towers who make the commercial decisions, who often don't face any flak at all. 

Whether it be the operators deciding there's not enough brass in these evening services or the inadequacies of the ticketing arrangements, it could be argued it's yet another fall-out of deregulation and yet again, it's the passengers who suffer.

Bus deregulation has to be one of the biggest con jobs implemented by the Tories. Completion died out by the early 1990s , leading to today’s cosy relationship between GNE, SNE and Arriva , and the sh*te service levels that they provide. I remember pre 1986 pretty well and how we had comprehensive and integrated services. Perhaps I m looking at it with rose tinted spectacles ?.

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I mistyped the word ‘competition’ in the above reply.

(11 May 2020, 8:58 pm)Economic505 wrote Bus deregulation has to be one of the biggest con jobs implemented by the Tories. Completion died out by the early 1990s , leading to today’s cosy relationship between GNE, SNE and Arriva , and the sh*te service levels that they provide.  I remember pre 1986 pretty well and how we had comprehensive and integrated services. Perhaps I m looking at it with rose tinted spectacles ?.

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I mistyped the word ‘competition’ in the above reply.

For all the positives pre 86, there will be plenty of negatives. Just as there will be post 86. 
I don't think it's rose tinted specs at all to have a preference as to which era you prefer. 

What may be lacking now with regards to pricing, ticketing and integrated travel - is possibly balanced out with the technology available to help passengers plan a journey.

For all my criticisms, I do think there's some good practice out there. Enough? Not sure. 
My own thoughts are that the focus on tech has become more of a priority than the pricing, ticketing and integrated travel, which is a shame.
If decision makers across the sector get some balance back, then the industry could be on the up. If it doesn't, then we continue to see examples like this where services are contracted out, ticket integration is a sore subject and passengers continue to lose out.

(11 May 2020, 8:58 pm)Economic505 wrote Bus deregulation has to be one of the biggest con jobs implemented by the Tories. Completion died out by the early 1990s , leading to today’s cosy relationship between GNE, SNE and Arriva , and the sh*te service levels that they provide.  I remember pre 1986 pretty well and how we had comprehensive and integrated services. Perhaps I m looking at it with rose tinted spectacles ?.

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I mistyped the word ‘competition’ in the above reply.

It's a bit harsh to compare 1986 to now, lots of things have changed and you would never know how regulated buses would work nowadays. Back in 1986 supermarkets and out of town shopping was almost unheard of. (The Metro Centre opened then).

One of the bigger problems in the North East especially in Tyne and Wear is Nexus imo. They have a serious conflict of interest and are way too interested in their own Metro rather than anything else so we end having these situations where we're going for the cheapest option which may not necesarily be the best option for the customer. Half the time it comes across it's Nexus vs bus companies which when your supposed to represent the transport in the area is a problem.

Not to mention they couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. North Shields over budget, trains refurbishment - over budget, station refurbishments half arsed, Central Station over budget, serious management issues with the Metro and that's just the start of it.

(12 May 2020, 10:45 am)Storx wrote It's a bit harsh to compare 1986 to now, lots of things have changed and you would never know how regulated buses would work nowadays. Back in 1986 supermarkets and out of town shopping was almost unheard of. (The Metro Centre opened then).

One of the bigger problems in the North East especially in Tyne and Wear is Nexus imo. They have a serious conflict of interest and are way too interested in their own Metro rather than anything else so we end having these situations where we're going for the cheapest option which may not necesarily be the best option for the customer. Half the time it comes across it's Nexus vs bus companies which when your supposed to represent the transport in the area is a problem.

Not to mention they couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. North Shields over budget, trains refurbishment - over budget, station refurbishments half arsed, Central Station over budget, serious management issues with the Metro and that's just the start of it.

Totally agree with your comments about Nexus, what incentive do they have to offer the contract to half decent operator when they own, and profit from a direct competitor. If anything, they have the incentive to go for the worst possible option, which could increase their own passenger numbers.

Nexus have uploaded some of the new timetables:

39: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

81-84: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

85-86: https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/f...170520.pdf

135/136: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

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(11 May 2020, 8:58 pm)Economic505 wrote Bus deregulation has to be one of the biggest con jobs implemented by the Tories. Completion died out by the early 1990s , leading to today’s cosy relationship between GNE, SNE and Arriva , and the sh*te service levels that they provide.  I remember pre 1986 pretty well and how we had comprehensive and integrated services. Perhaps I m looking at it with rose tinted spectacles ?.

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I mistyped the word ‘competition’ in the above reply.

I actually think Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva run a decent service.


Why would they have buses running around on a 10 minute frequency, if they aren't getting the passengers needed to run the service?, before the crisis Stagecoach were planning cut the frequency of their Sunderland services because passenger numbers dropped.

(12 May 2020, 10:45 am)Storx wrote It's a bit harsh to compare 1986 to now, lots of things have changed and you would never know how regulated buses would work nowadays. Back in 1986 supermarkets and out of town shopping was almost unheard of. (The Metro Centre opened then). 

One of the bigger problems in the North East especially in Tyne and Wear is Nexus imo. They have a serious conflict of interest and are way too interested in their own Metro rather than anything else so we end having these situations where we're going for the cheapest option which may not necesarily be the best option for the customer. Half the time it comes across it's Nexus vs bus companies which when your supposed to represent the transport in the area is a problem.

Not to mention they couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. North Shields over budget, trains refurbishment - over budget, station refurbishments half arsed, Central Station over budget, serious management issues with the Metro and that's just the start of it.

Genuine question, but what have operators done to ensure a sustained level of service, from a variety of locations, to those out of town retail parks?
Silverlink, Retail World, Teesside Park are just three major examples with awful levels of service. There will be others. 
The metro centre, which was built with bus and train in mind - has services, but they tend to follow a similar route in/and out of the place.
Dalton Park also has a similar pattern with its public transport. 

There's been 30 years and plenty of opportunity for operators to adapt post deregulation and serve those markets in an effective manner. Not sure they have.
Goes back to passenger needs again. If we apply the 'does it meet passenger needs' question to the services in those areas, I think we all know what the answer will be.

I don't think it's harsh to compare before and after.

(12 May 2020, 3:23 pm)Andreos1 wrote Genuine question, but what have operators done to ensure a sustained level of service, from a variety of locations, to those out of town retail parks?
Silverlink, Retail World, Teesside Park are just three major examples with awful levels of service. There will be others. 
The metro centre, which was built with bus and train in mind - has services, but they tend to follow a similar route in/and out of the place.
Dalton Park also has a similar pattern with its public transport. 

There's been 30 years and plenty of opportunity for operators to adapt post deregulation and serve those markets in an effective manner. Not sure they have.
Goes back to passenger needs again. If we apply the 'does it meet passenger needs' question to the services in those areas, I think we all know what the answer will be.

I don't think it's harsh to compare before and after.

It's very hard to pin point that down to deregulation though was more of my point I don't question any of that however. Lot's of things have changed since then and there's nothing to say that regulated buses wouldn't have gone down the same route. Things like the Metro Centre and out of town shopping centre's were pretty much developed with the car in mind and whoever ran them would always have the issues. 

Comparing the NHS from 1986 and now I'm sure would throw up some scary statistics, do you really think the government would care about buses? They'd be bottom of the pile for any form of realistic investment and councils wouldn't have the money to prop them up neither. I could imagine them being in a similar state to the local train network was before the Metro was developed.

I don't question the issues that you've said above though just more I could imagine if they were still regulated they'd be even worse.

London was never deregulated, so we do have an example to work from . TFL run a rail network (like Nexus) and also have a lot more say on bus services than what Nexus have. As for Nexus having a vested interest in the Metro, maybe that’s true. However, where I live, the Metro only serves a small proportion of the population.

(12 May 2020, 12:52 pm)Michael wrote Nexus have uploaded some of the new timetables:

39: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

81-84: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

85-86: https://www.nexus.org.uk/sites/default/f...170520.pdf

135/136: https://www.nexus.org.uk/modules/contrib...on-pdf.png

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I actually think Stagecoach, GNE and Arriva run a decent service.


Why would they have buses running around on a 10 minute frequency, if they aren't getting the passengers needed to run the service?, before the crisis Stagecoach were planning cut the frequency of their Sunderland services because passenger numbers dropped.

The thing with Stagecoach both in Sunderland and South Shields has been the lack of double deckers. The reason we have 10 min services on nearly all routes is the older services used to have 20 min frequencies operated by double deckers with 77-86 seats.   Once the double deckers were taken off and replaced by various darts with 40 seat capacity they had to increase frequency.  I would be happy to see services reduce in frequency in long term back to 20 min intervals and have deckers on the routes.   Only thing then is you will have surplus drivers.

(12 May 2020, 4:39 pm)Storx wrote It's very hard to pin point that down to deregulation though was more of my point I don't question any of that however. Lot's of things have changed since then and there's nothing to say that regulated buses wouldn't have gone down the same route. Things like the Metro Centre and out of town shopping centre's were pretty much developed with the car in mind and whoever ran them would always have the issues. 

Comparing the NHS from 1986 and now I'm sure would throw up some scary statistics, do you really think the government would care about buses? They'd be bottom of the pile for any form of realistic investment and councils wouldn't have the money to prop them up neither. I could imagine them being in a similar state to the local train network was before the Metro was developed.

I don't question the issues that you've said above though just more I could imagine if they were still regulated they'd be even worse.

Forgetting the ifs buts and maybes about what would be achieved with one or not the other, if you look at the aims of deregulation, have they been achieved?

(12 May 2020, 5:07 pm)Economic505 wrote London was never deregulated, so we do have an example to work from . TFL run a rail network (like Nexus) and also have a lot more say on bus services than what Nexus have. As for Nexus having a vested interest in the Metro, maybe that’s true. However, where I live, the Metro only serves a small proportion of the population.

tbf though the buses in London also made a £722 million loss which is no way sustainable. I don't mind the London model though it's more the best of both worlds however I can't see it working too well up here could imagine rural areas being ignored.

https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/nexus-contract-service-changes-17-may-2020

Looks like ticket acceptance has been agreed

From Sunday 17 May, some evening and Sunday bus services in the Washington and Sunderland areas will no longer be run by us and will be operated by Gateshead Central Taxis instead.

Our tickets will still be valid on these journeys – here’s the full details for each of the services:


Black Cats 39 (Doxford Park – Sunderland City Centre – Pennywell)
Evening journeys from around 7.30pm on Mondays to Fridays, 6.30pm on Saturdays and 7pm on Sundays will be run by Gateshead Central Taxis.

indiGo Washington – 81, 82, 83 & 84
Evening journeys from 7.30pm on Mondays to Saturdays and from around 6.30pm on Sundays will be run by Gateshead Central Taxis.

indiGo Washington – 85 & 86
Evening journeys from 7.30pm on Mondays to Saturdays and from around 5pm on Sundays will be run by Gateshead Central Taxis.

Services 135 & 136
All evening and Sunday journeys on these services will now be run by Gateshead Central Taxis. The early morning journeys on Mondays to Saturdays will continue to be run by Go North East.

Service 168
This service will now be run fully by Gateshead Central Taxis.

(13 May 2020, 9:07 am)streetdeckfan wrote https://www.gonortheast.co.uk/nexus-contract-service-changes-17-may-2020

Looks like ticket acceptance has been agreed

Excellent news! Really glad to hear that passengers aren't going to lose out financially.

(12 May 2020, 5:07 pm)Economic505 wrote London was never deregulated, so we do have an example to work from . TFL run a rail network (like Nexus) and also have a lot more say on bus services than what Nexus have. As for Nexus having a vested interest in the Metro, maybe that’s true. However, where I live, the Metro only serves a small proportion of the population.

Not the best example though.

London Buses weren't deregulated simply because they were running at a huge loss. If the Government handed them over they'd only end up paying again with huge subsidies so they went down the tendering and franchise route (or business units). Infact one of those companies was wound up.

Major tried to deregulate London Buses but failed because it became a political hot potato around the Travelcard system and there being no obligation for a deregulated operator to accept it (i.e - this would have been political suicide in London)

And of course London and it's voters are of huge economic and social importance to Politics - Tyne and Wear is not.

(13 May 2020, 9:51 am)Andreos1 wrote Excellent news! Really glad to hear that passengers aren't going to lose out financially.

Wonder what GCT are going to use though? Quite a difference if it ends up being a little van compared to a 17 plate Streetlite, won't be the nicest experience for the people who live in Ryhope and work at Doxford finishing late.

I agree . Those ‘buses’ that GCT use look absolutely rank.

(13 May 2020, 11:22 am)deanmachine wrote Wonder what GCT are going to use though? Quite a difference if it ends up being a little van compared to a 17 plate Streetlite, won't be the nicest experience for the people who live in Ryhope and work at Doxford finishing late.

I'm not sure what's supposed to be allocated. Can't remember if it was ever mentioned on here. 

It's an interesting one whichever way you look at it. 
Two thoughts jump straight to mind and would have ensured a different outcome (certainly on a short-term basis):
* GNE could operate the services commercially and ensure a standard vehicle allocation is maintained during operating hours.
* Nexus could award the contract on different weightings. 

I think the ticket acceptance is probably middle ground and the best outcome in the circumstances. 

Going forward, I do think lessons need to be learned. It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened and I'm not sure it can continue.

(13 May 2020, 7:10 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm not sure what's supposed to be allocated. Can't remember if it was ever mentioned on here. 

It's an interesting one whichever way you look at it. 
Two thoughts jump straight to mind and would have ensured a different outcome (certainly on a short-term basis):
* GNE could operate the services commercially and ensure a standard vehicle allocation is maintained during operating hours.
* Nexus could award the contract on different weightings. 

I think the ticket acceptance is probably middle ground and the best outcome in the circumstances. 

Going forward, I do think lessons need to be learned. It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened and I'm not sure it can continue.

ohh how I remember the days of Arriva operating what is now the 81/82 as the M3 in 2014, I specifically remember them operating through Barmston/Biddick several minutes early and then spending nearly 10 mins sitting at The Galleries heading towards Birtley, can see similar with GCT going forward and I do think they win a lot of contracts from the big 3 three year on year as they stipulate they'll use new fuel efficient buses, whereas if they matched what another operator was going to use vehicle wise then I think the latter would then keep the contract.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adammalarkey/14400906258/in/album-72157649335867148/

(13 May 2020, 9:07 pm)Malarkey wrote ohh how I remember the days of Arriva operating what is now the 81/82 as the M3 in 2014, I specifically remember them operating through Barmston/Biddick several minutes early and then spending nearly 10 mins sitting at The Galleries heading towards Birtley, can see similar with GCT going forward and I do think they win a lot of contracts from the big 3 three year on year as they stipulate they'll use new fuel efficient buses, whereas if they matched what another operator was going to use vehicle wise then I think the latter would then keep the contract.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adammalarkey/14400906258/in/album-72157649335867148/

A new vehicle isn't necessarily a better vehicle from a passengers perspective though. I'd much rather have a 5 year old GNE Streetlite than a brand new base spec E200
Do GCT spec the likes of WiFi and USB on their new vehicles?