(18 Jul 2020, 4:42 pm)mb134 wrote Given that the B7RLE was available until 2013 I wonder if operators regret, looking back, opting for L94s and then Omnicities over sticking with one standard chassis/body type throughout.

Personally I don't think they would regret it. The markets shifted towards the late 2000s/early 2010s anyway to more lightweight and more fuel efficient vehicles, when reducing fuel consumption was all the rage for green credentials, so I think the shift towards the Versa and Streetlite rather than sticking to a "heavyweight" B7RLE option was going to be inevitable anyway. We saw that with the Citaros, a large number being ordered 2007/2008 and then only 1 small batch in 2010 and 1 small batch in 2013, the last "heavyweight" single decks ordered. Even in most other large companies there was a focus shift from the "heavyweight" offerings of MAN, Volvo and Scania to the "lightweight" full size single decks in the VDL Pulsar and the ADL Enviro 300, and then towards the Streetlite and E200MMC.

I think there's a passenger appeal element to it as well. Stagecoach for example have been quite good at just ordering the same old, and at times it gets to a point where a typical passenger cannot tell a brand new bus from say a 7 year old bus of the same type. Using Manchester as an example, a 64 plate E400 looks exactly the same as the 06 plates they had, so the investment in new buses would go unnoticed to a typical passenger and it becomes almost utilitarian. If GNE had done the same by sticking with Wright then you'd have had the same situation, but they changed to buying something completely different that stood out from the crowd, something that gets noticed as being a new bus to the typical passenger, especially at the time when GNE were introducing all of the different route brands. As a commercial operator you want it known that you are investing in the services to bring improvements, and nothing shows your investment better than the vehicles the passengers board.

The B7RLE wasn't available until 2003 either. Volvo replaced the B10BLE with the rather unpopular B7L, which wasn't very successful at all and was axed after only 2 years effectively. I'd take a guess that a commercial decision was taken at the time, based on knowledge they had then, to order the proven Scania L94UB for their full size single deck offering for 2001-2004 deliveries, rather than switching to the unproven B7L with its smaller engine in the same full sized bus. They had been buying B10BLEs so an unproven drop in engine size could have brought some doubts to real world suitability?
Scania replaced the L94UB with the similar K230UB for Euro4, which Wright still built on, but GNE had made the commercial decision to order the Omnicity rather than sticking with the Solar for standardisation.

Apologies for the long and slightly off topic post 

(19 Jul 2020, 1:03 pm)cainebj wrote Personally I don't think they would regret it. The markets shifted towards the late 2000s/early 2010s anyway to more lightweight and more fuel efficient vehicles, when reducing fuel consumption was all the rage for green credentials, so I think the shift towards the Versa and Streetlite rather than sticking to a "heavyweight" B7RLE option was going to be inevitable anyway. We saw that with the Citaros, a large number being ordered 2007/2008 and then only 1 small batch in 2010 and 1 small batch in 2013, the last "heavyweight" single decks ordered. Even in most other large companies there was a focus shift from the "heavyweight" offerings of MAN, Volvo and Scania to the "lightweight" full size single decks in the VDL Pulsar and the ADL Enviro 300, and then towards the Streetlite and E200MMC.

I think there's a passenger appeal element to it as well. Stagecoach for example have been quite good at just ordering the same old, and at times it gets to a point where a typical passenger cannot tell a brand new bus from say a 7 year old bus of the same type. Using Manchester as an example, a 64 plate E400 looks exactly the same as the 06 plates they had, so the investment in new buses would go unnoticed to a typical passenger and it becomes almost utilitarian. If GNE had done the same by sticking with Wright then you'd have had the same situation, but they changed to buying something completely different that stood out from the crowd, something that gets noticed as being a new bus to the typical passenger, especially at the time when GNE were introducing all of the different route brands. As a commercial operator you want it known that you are investing in the services to bring improvements, and nothing shows your investment better than the vehicles the passengers board.

The B7RLE wasn't available until 2003 either. Volvo replaced the B10BLE with the rather unpopular B7L, which wasn't very successful at all and was axed after only 2 years effectively. I'd take a guess that a commercial decision was taken at the time, based on knowledge they had then, to order the proven Scania L94UB for their full size single deck offering for 2001-2004 deliveries, rather than switching to the unproven B7L with its smaller engine in the same full sized bus. They had been buying B10BLEs so an unproven drop in engine size could have brought some doubts to real world suitability?
Scania replaced the L94UB with the similar K230UB for Euro4, which Wright still built on, but GNE had made the commercial decision to order the Omnicity rather than sticking with the Solar for standardisation.

Apologies for the long and slightly off topic post 

I understand your point here but personally I disagree. It's all good for those who live on the bus route who constantly gets the new buses ie. the 21, X1 etc but if your one of the unlucky people who live on one of the routes who don't ie. 6, 25 you end up having a worse service but paying the same fare. At least if everything is uniform there's no first class and second class services. It can leave a bit of a bitter taste when you pay more for a worse service which at the same time is less infrequent. You just have to look at Birtley for an example of that, one side has a 7 minute service with new Streetdecks, the other side a slow 30 minute service with old Omnicity's without any discount fares which exist for the Angel.

At least if you travel on Stagecoach you know whether you get an 07 plate Enviro or a 13 plate Enviro the level of service is the same or thereabouts. It's no co-incidence that GNE's core network is doing well but the rest of it is falling apart with constant changes and service reductions whereas Stagecoach has pretty much been stable.

(19 Jul 2020, 1:48 pm)Storx wrote I understand your point here but personally I disagree. It's all good for those who live on the bus route who constantly gets the new buses ie. the 21, X1 etc but if your one of the unlucky people who live on one of the routes who don't ie. 6, 25 you end up having a worse service but paying the same fare. At least if everything is uniform there's no first class and second class services. It can leave a bit of a bitter taste when you pay more for a worse service which at the same time is less infrequent. You just have to look at Birtley for an example of that, one side has a 7 minute service with new Streetdecks, the other side a slow 30 minute service with old Omnicity's without any discount fares which exist for the Angel.

At least if you travel on Stagecoach you know whether you get an 07 plate Enviro or a 13 plate Enviro the level of service is the same or thereabouts. It's no co-incidence that GNE's core network is doing well but the rest of it is falling apart with constant changes and service reductions whereas Stagecoach has pretty much been stable.

So you're saying you'd rather they didn't upgrade any route than keep upgrading a select few?

It makes sense to keep upgrading the routes that make money, the ones that can justify the the expense, then those vehicles which are only a few years old can get cascaded to routes that may not be able to justify it. 

And do you not think if other routes could justify a 7 minute frequency with new StreetDecks they would have them? There's a reason certain routes are flagships, it's not because they handpicked routes to spend money on, it's because they're the most popular routes!

(19 Jul 2020, 2:20 pm)streetdeckfan wrote So you're saying you'd rather they didn't upgrade any route than keep upgrading a select few?

It makes sense to keep upgrading the routes that make money, the ones that can justify the the expense, then those vehicles which are only a few years old can get cascaded to routes that may not be able to justify it. 

And do you not think if other routes could justify a 7 minute frequency with new StreetDecks they would have them? There's a reason certain routes are flagships, it's not because they handpicked routes to spend money on, it's because they're the most popular routes!

I'd create a uniform brand personally which is high standard so you know what your getting. Then any new buses fit into the same design. There's other ways to advertise services than 'new buses'. Usually it's just a cover up for other problems.

It's not about cutting frequencies but why does the 21 deserve new buses over say the 25? If the 21 is popular then surely there's not much demand left to move people across whereas services such as the 25 and 6 go through numerous places where people obviously don't use the services. There's probably a reason why and it's the fact that tbh they're a bit crap. Old buses, infrequent, slow etc. Why not try and persuade people across by not 'leaving them behind' with constant cascades as that's what people feel.

(19 Jul 2020, 1:48 pm)Storx wrote I understand your point here but personally I disagree. It's all good for those who live on the bus route who constantly gets the new buses ie. the 21, X1 etc but if your one of the unlucky people who live on one of the routes who don't ie. 6, 25 you end up having a worse service but paying the same fare. At least if everything is uniform there's no first class and second class services. It can leave a bit of a bitter taste when you pay more for a worse service which at the same time is less infrequent. You just have to look at Birtley for an example of that, one side has a 7 minute service with new Streetdecks, the other side a slow 30 minute service with old Omnicity's without any discount fares which exist for the Angel.

At least if you travel on Stagecoach you know whether you get an 07 plate Enviro or a 13 plate Enviro the level of service is the same or thereabouts. It's no co-incidence that GNE's core network is doing well but the rest of it is falling apart with constant changes and service reductions whereas Stagecoach has pretty much been stable.

Constantly get new buses? X1 hasn't had anything for 8years. I believe it was the Npower contract that paid for new buses on the X1 in 2011 due to the requirements of low floor DD. Due to increased passengers on X1, further 7 were bought to deal with demand the following year. The 21 never received a proper allocation of new buses until 2017, when the 15 B5H were introduced in 2012, the PVR was increased and allocated older DD to compensate. Made sense to acquire new buses that met PVR and allocate the B5H to the 1....that was well overdue an upgrade.

Let's not forget the CAZ due to come in everything going into Newcastle has to be euro 6, meaning newcastle services need to take priority. No doubt there would of been an even distribution of new buses had this not been the case

(19 Jul 2020, 3:20 pm)JP6004 wrote Constantly get new buses? X1 hasn't had anything for 8years. I believe it was the Npower contract that paid for new buses on the X1 in 2011 due to the requirements of low floor DD. Due to increased passengers on X1, further 7 were bought to deal with demand the following year. The 21 never received a proper allocation of new buses until 2017, when the 15 B5H were introduced in 2012, the PVR was increased and allocated older DD to compensate. Made sense to acquire new buses that met PVR and allocate the B5H to the 1....that was well overdue an upgrade.

Let's not forget the CAZ due to come in everything going into Newcastle has to be euro 6, meaning newcastle services need to take priority. No doubt there would of been an even distribution of new buses had this not been the case

But is the X1 losing customers? It's not so why buy the new buses for them - 8 years isn't long at all. The 26/27 which they're getting dumped on haven't had new buses since god knows when - I really don't know. Anyone answer this? Why not give the X1 buses a decent mid-life refurb (so they're as new) and instead give the 26/27 some love instead for a change. Now all your doing is giving the X1 new buses which it doesn't really need (people would appreciate the mid life refurb as much) and the 26/27 are getting the, oh look the X1 has new buses AGAIN and we're getting the old buses dumped on us. It's the same with the 6 and 25. They're almost ignored lately and it's a creating a bad core and non-core services with GNE and the non-core services are a mess. This isn't just GNE; Arriva used to be bad for it aswell but not as much lately they've seemed to moved to a buy new buses and keep them on there until their dead approach which I prefer. You don't hear anyone complaining about the 'old' 59 plates at Blyth as they were there from new.

Have a flagship route in timetables and ticketing but it doesn't mean they need new buses all the time.

(19 Jul 2020, 3:38 pm)Storx wrote But is the X1 losing customers? It's not so why buy the new buses for them - 8 years isn't long at all. The 26/27 which they're getting dumped on haven't had new buses since god knows when - I really don't know. Anyone answer this? Why not give the X1 buses a decent mid-life refurb (so they're as new) and instead give the 26/27 some love instead for a change. Now all your doing is giving the X1 new buses which it doesn't really need (people would appreciate the mid life refurb as much) and the 26/27 are getting the, oh look the X1 has new buses AGAIN and we're getting the old buses dumped on us. It's the same with the 6 and 25. They're almost ignored lately and it's a creating a bad core and non-core services with GNE and the non-core services are a mess. This isn't just GNE; Arriva used to be bad for it aswell but not as much lately they've seemed to moved to a buy new buses and keep them on there until their dead approach which I prefer. You don't hear anyone complaining about the 'old' 59 plates at Blyth as they were there from new.

Have a flagship route in timetables and ticketing but it doesn't mean they need new buses all the time.

Because, as they've said, they're in the process of upgrading all the express routes.

Surprised you didn't bring up the fact that the 97s have just been upgraded with brand new vehicles, oh wait, that doesn't fit your agenda does it?

(19 Jul 2020, 3:38 pm)Storx wrote But is the X1 losing customers? It's not so why buy the new buses for them - 8 years isn't long at all. The 26/27 which they're getting dumped on haven't had new buses since god knows when - I really don't know. Anyone answer this? Why not give the X1 buses a decent mid-life refurb (so they're as new) and instead give the 26/27 some love instead for a change. Now all your doing is giving the X1 new buses which it doesn't really need (people would appreciate the mid life refurb as much) and the 26/27 are getting the, oh look the X1 has new buses AGAIN and we're getting the old buses dumped on us. It's the same with the 6 and 25. They're almost ignored lately and it's a creating a bad core and non-core services with GNE and the non-core services are a mess. This isn't just GNE; Arriva used to be bad for it aswell but not as much lately they've seemed to moved to a buy new buses and keep them on there until their dead approach which I prefer. You don't hear anyone complaining about the 'old' 59 plates at Blyth as they were there from new.

Have a flagship route in timetables and ticketing but it doesn't mean they need new buses all the time.

Perhaps it's not as profitable running along the metro route as the X1 is, single decks have been allocated for years with frequency fluctuating between 10 to 15mins. My point is the contract tied with the 921 required low floor DD, therefore the money paid to GNE for the contract was in part used to upgrade half the allocation.

For the 25, only running every 30mins, it's hardly profit making. The 6 was upgraded from B10s, to citaros, again not a main profitable route as opposed to other routes. If your going to purchase new buses, you do so to maintain and attract passengers on profitable routes. Sticking new buses on the 25, wont have the same financial benefits as those on core profit making routes....you could argue the X84/X85 has never had new buses, allocation of used casded L94 to cascaded citaros. New buses, regardless of where they are allocated, helps to upgrade other routes by removing the oldest vehicles, so your still getting a better service than previous

(19 Jul 2020, 3:46 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Because, as they've said, they're in the process of upgrading all the express routes.

Surprised you didn't bring up the fact that the 97s have just been upgraded with brand new vehicles, oh wait, that doesn't fit your agenda does it?

Which still doesn't answer the point why the X1 needs new buses...

The point is and still is about 'upgrades'. You can only upgrade something that is bad or worse. Have a uniform fleet you can't upgrade it and if you do upgrade something do every bus and create a brand that's good throughout - not just your special few routes with the rest of the network falling apart. There's an obsession with new buses on here especially with certain companies but if you do a decent refurbishment then it's just the same to a normal passenger. Stagecoach don't have this problem as an 09 Enviro is the same as an 15 Enviro so you don't have the problem with one bus route has better buses than the other they all have good buses or bad buses (depending on whether you like Stagecoach's interior).

(19 Jul 2020, 3:38 pm)Storx wrote But is the X1 losing customers? It's not so why buy the new buses for them - 8 years isn't long at all. The 26/27 which they're getting dumped on haven't had new buses since god knows when - I really don't know. Anyone answer this? Why not give the X1 buses a decent mid-life refurb (so they're as new) and instead give the 26/27 some love instead for a change. Now all your doing is giving the X1 new buses which it doesn't really need (people would appreciate the mid life refurb as much) and the 26/27 are getting the, oh look the X1 has new buses AGAIN and we're getting the old buses dumped on us. It's the same with the 6 and 25. They're almost ignored lately and it's a creating a bad core and non-core services with GNE and the non-core services are a mess. This isn't just GNE; Arriva used to be bad for it aswell but not as much lately they've seemed to moved to a buy new buses and keep them on there until their dead approach which I prefer. You don't hear anyone complaining about the 'old' 59 plates at Blyth as they were there from new.

Have a flagship route in timetables and ticketing but it doesn't mean they need new buses all the time.

(19 Jul 2020, 4:05 pm)Storx wrote Which still doesn't answer the point why the X1 needs new buses...

The point is and still is about 'upgrades'. You can only upgrade something that is bad or worse. Have a uniform fleet you can't upgrade it and if you do upgrade something do every bus and create a brand that's good throughout - not just your special few routes with the rest of the network falling apart. There's an obsession with new buses on here especially with certain companies but if you do a decent refurbishment then it's just the same to a normal passenger. Stagecoach don't have this problem as an 09 Enviro is the same as an 15 Enviro so you don't have the problem with one bus route has better buses than the other they all have good buses or bad buses (depending on whether you like Stagecoach's interior).

I disagree with your opinion.

Investment is clearly being focused around the company's new "X-lines" network, which obviously spirals predominantly out of Newcastle City Centre (so is required for the proposed Clean Air Zone, anyway). The investment into these routes means the buses currently allocated (of varying ages) cascade to replace much older buses, and there'll be a noticeable change on these services as it'll mean things like free Wi-Fi, power sockets and audio-visual announcements are introduced to some routes for the very first time.

Members of this forum have indicated in the past that they do not believe vehicle allocation is enough to convince customers to use the bus, but bus operators up and down the country have reported examples of patronage growth as a result of investment into new vehicles. I'm sure everyone will have a different opinion on this one and it could be argued that the investment into new vehicles has given marketing departments an opportunity to promote the service(s) more often which is the true reason for the growth, but the point here is that operators have reported this to be the case and as enthusiasts we probably have to believe that. With that in mind, a mere 1% of growth on a flagship route like the 21 is vastly different to 1% of growth on a much lesser route like the 25.

Go North East has to submit a business case for the purchase of new vehicles to its parent company, Go-Ahead Group, with fuel savings and potential patronage growth being two figures which will be included within this plan. I suspect it will be the same for other companies in a group PLC too. With the above point in mind, at Group level it makes much more sense to invest into a flagship route like the 21 if growth can come as a result of the investment. This is your main reason for key services being upgraded with brand new buses more often than lesser routes.

I would imagine customers on "Crusader" services 26/27 would welcome a permanent allocation of double-decks with open arms, given the unreliability of the Tyne & Wear Metro system, which often results in single-decks on services 26/27 being overcrowded or even full, leaving 'normal' bus passengers behind at bus stops. I don't believe for one minute they will envy customers on the X1 service and wish they had the buses from that route instead (let's face it, 95%+ of them won't use the X1 so won't know any different!)

I also disagree with your point about a good refurbishment comparing to the investment into a brand new bus. Are you suggesting that Go North East should have refurbished the old B7/Geminis on the X9/X10 services every five years instead of buying new buses? I'm sure passengers appreciate a bus looking pretty inside, when parked up at the side of the road...

(19 Jul 2020, 4:05 pm)Storx wrote Which still doesn't answer the point why the X1 needs new buses...

The point is and still is about 'upgrades'. You can only upgrade something that is bad or worse. Have a uniform fleet you can't upgrade it and if you do upgrade something do every bus and create a brand that's good throughout - not just your special few routes with the rest of the network falling apart. There's an obsession with new buses on here especially with certain companies but if you do a decent refurbishment then it's just the same to a normal passenger. Stagecoach don't have this problem as an 09 Enviro is the same as an 15 Enviro so you don't have the problem with one bus route has better buses than the other they all have good buses or bad buses (depending on whether you like Stagecoach's interior).

For a core profit making route the X1 is very low spec compared to other routes with same vehicles. The route itself is more demanding therefore more fuel thirsty. Having more efficient buses, saves on fuel, maintenance costs, increasing reliability, while also maintaining patronage and attracting new customers. As it is also being encompassed within Xlines premium routes and a company standard being set, if X1 was simply refurbed, it wouldn't fall under the full Xlines specification.

Yes you cant tell a difference between stagecoach 09 and 15 plates Enviros, as in my opinion, they are not continually improving their offering on their services. I believe they are way behind in attracting customers than GNE and Arriva, by not continuously improving the comfort for passengers....and a rebrand isnt going to change the comfort for passengers.

We dont know what the plan ahead is over the next few years, maybe they are in line for new buses, but you cant penalise the business decision for one route getting new buses first. You cant buy new buses for every route all at once. Also it would be irresponsible to purchase new vehicles for when demand is changing rapidly like it has done for the 27 over time. Surely they would want to analyse demand, changing and embedding timetables before creating a realistic business case for new vehicles. With so many factors affecting that particular route, metro reliability, fluctuations in demand, predicted growth based on infrastructure improvements along the route that need to be taken into consideration.

(19 Jul 2020, 4:15 pm)Dan wrote I disagree with your opinion.

Investment is clearly being focused around the company's new "X-lines" network, which obviously spirals predominantly out of Newcastle City Centre (so is required for the proposed Clean Air Zone, anyway). The investment into these routes means the buses currently allocated (of varying ages) cascade to replace much older buses, and there'll be a noticeable change on these services as it'll mean things like free Wi-Fi, power sockets and audio-visual announcements are introduced to some routes for the very first time.

Members of this forum have indicated in the past that they do not believe vehicle allocation is enough to convince customers to use the bus, but bus operators up and down the country have reported examples of patronage growth as a result of investment into new vehicles. I'm sure everyone will have a different opinion on this one and it could be argued that the investment into new vehicles has given marketing departments an opportunity to promote the service(s) more often which is the true reason for the growth, but the point here is that operators have reported this to be the case and as enthusiasts we probably have to believe that. With that in mind, a mere 1% of growth on a flagship route like the 21 is vastly different to 1% of growth on a much lesser route like the 25.

Go North East has to submit a business case for the purchase of new vehicles to its parent company, Go-Ahead Group, with fuel savings and potential patronage growth being two figures which will be included within this plan. I suspect it will be the same for other companies in a group PLC too. With the above point in mind, at Group level it makes much more sense to invest into a flagship route like the 21 if growth can come as a result of the investment. This is your main reason for key services being upgraded with brand new buses more often than lesser routes.

I would imagine customers on "Crusader" services 26/27 would welcome a permanent allocation of double-decks with open arms, given the unreliability of the Tyne & Wear Metro system, which often results in single-decks on services 26/27 being overcrowded or even full, leaving 'normal' bus passengers behind at bus stops. I don't believe for one minute they will envy customers on the X1 service and wish they had the buses from that route instead (let's face it, 95%+ of them won't use the X1 so won't know any different!)

I also disagree with your point about a good refurbishment comparing to the investment into a brand new bus. Are you suggesting that Go North East should have refurbished the old B7/Geminis on the X9/X10 services every five years instead of buying new buses? I'm sure passengers appreciate a bus looking pretty inside, when parked up at the side of the road...

Can't argue with statistics tbh so not going to naive and argue a point to the ground and it kind of makes sense in the point really that even if you did want to get 25 new buses it wouldn't never happen anyway because of how companies work so won't argue about where new buses go.

I still think a good refurbishment in comparison to a new bus in the majority of cases is just as good though. I know a lot of people seem to want the 10 to get new buses but if you give them a as new refurbishment and a good marketing campaign then it'll be as good as buying new buses for them. Similar with the 56 and in a few years the time the 20, Coast and Country and Black Cat network. I just wish all 3 would spend a bit more on upgrading their older fleet as there is a few core routes around which are looking pretty tired imo 10, 56, 58, Quaylink to name a few for GNE and then create a more modern fleet throughout so when they do eventually move on they're not too far behind the new buses lets say the 21 has got.

The X9/X10 is a different route altogether though and it was more of buying the wrong bus for the route which you's have finally solved so no moaning there.

(19 Jul 2020, 4:36 pm)Storx wrote Can't argue with statistics tbh so not going to naive and argue a point to the ground and it kind of makes sense in the point really that even if you did want to get 25 new buses it wouldn't never happen anyway because of how companies work so won't argue about where new buses go.

Thought u were 

(19 Jul 2020, 4:39 pm)JP6004 wrote Thought u were 

I never thought about the business case side of things so they'd never get new buses for the 6 or 25 anyway. No point arguing for the sake of it and with the stats that new buses on the 25 would give the same gain as on the 21 from someone who works for the company then what's there to discuss. I just thought there would be more potential for bigger gains on the 25 etc since less people in the area it covers use it now so there's more potential but guessing you'd need to do more than new vehicles (which makes sense).

(19 Jul 2020, 1:03 pm)cainebj wrote The B7RLE wasn't available until 2003 either. Volvo replaced the B10BLE with the rather unpopular B7L, which wasn't very successful at all and was axed after only 2 years effectively. I'd take a guess that a commercial decision was taken at the time, based on knowledge they had then, to order the proven Scania L94UB for their full size single deck offering for 2001-2004 deliveries, rather than switching to the unproven B7L with its smaller engine in the same full sized bus. They had been buying B10BLEs so an unproven drop in engine size could have brought some doubts to real world suitability?
Scania replaced the L94UB with the similar K230UB for Euro4, which Wright still built on, but GNE had made the commercial decision to order the Omnicity rather than sticking with the Solar for standardisation.

Apologies for the long and slightly off topic post 

I'll crop your post slightly on my reply as I'll mainly be responding to the quoted section, so that folk don't have to scroll past another big post.

Before the rest of my reply, I'll say that I do think the L94s have been very good servants for GNE and have been solid workhorses for a number of years. I travelled on 5209 on its penultimate day in service and it held 55-60mph on the A19 stretch no problem at all. It's likely that I've been exposed to far more B7RLEs over the years than I have L94s - and obviously with the former being still in production until 2013 I've also experienced more B7RLEs while relatively new and in their prime than I have L94s, which is why I prefer the B7. 

Obviously on a company by company basis, my original post about regret doesn't always work - as you point out the B7L wasn't liked by operators and ultimately flopped. If you were in the market for single decks in that period (as GNE, for example, were), the L94 was the only "heavyweight" option you could really look into. However if you then look at, for example, First, who have a huge volume of B7RLEs but then have an oddball fleet of a handful of 2004/5 L94s and CN94 Omnis. For standardisation, as well as finding spare parts years later, possibly they look back now and think it would have been better to get B7s at the time. 

However looking at it from a slightly different point of view:

I wonder if the fact GNE, in this case, ordered L94s for routes in some cases which would have done absolutely fine with a 7 litre (or lower) engine helped to kill off the "heavyweight" single deck, as you alluded to. In the same way that a B10BLE was overkill for many routes, had operators across the board bought vehicles suited to the routes they were placed on then would we see today a more balanced vehicle selection? Essentially if operators had gone, "okay we might need the L94s for X route, but a smaller engine size would be absolutely fine on X", would we have seen a situation now in which "heavyweight" singles were still being bought for routes which require them, and things like Streetlites being put onto your less demanding services. The same goes for Olympians, for example, not necessary on any of the city routes many operators put them onto - likely led to operators demanding better fuel economy from manufacturers, because they were putting 10 litre engines on services which did 20mph tops all day long.

Apologies to folks coming here to see farewell to L94 posts and having to scroll through these lengthy vehicle type discussions!

(19 Jul 2020, 4:36 pm)Storx wrote Can't argue with statistics tbh so not going to naive and argue a point to the ground and it kind of makes sense in the point really that even if you did want to get 25 new buses it wouldn't never happen anyway because of how companies work so won't argue about where new buses go.

I still think a good refurbishment in comparison to a new bus in the majority of cases is just as good though. I know a lot of people seem to want the 10 to get new buses but if you give them a as new refurbishment and a good marketing campaign then it'll be as good as buying new buses for them. Similar with the 56 and in a few years the time the 20, Coast and Country and Black Cat network. I just wish all 3 would spend a bit more on upgrading their older fleet as there is a few core routes around which are looking pretty tired imo 10, 56, 58, Quaylink to name a few for GNE and then create a more modern fleet throughout so when they do eventually move on they're not too far behind the new buses lets say the 21 has got.

The X9/X10 is a different route altogether though and it was more of buying the wrong bus for the route which you's have finally solved so no moaning there.

(19 Jul 2020, 4:47 pm)Storx wrote I never thought about the business case side of things so they'd never get new buses for the 6 or 25 anyway. No point arguing for the sake of it and with the stats that new buses on the 25 would give the same gain as on the 21 from someone who works for the company then what's there to discuss. I just thought there would be more potential for bigger gains on the 25 etc since less people in the area it covers use it now so there's more potential but guessing you'd need to do more than new vehicles (which makes sense).

That's what I was trying to explain, the only way they can convince the higher ups to give them money for new vehicles is to upgrade the routes that make the money. 

The X1 didn't /need/ an upgrade, they could have refurbed and people would have been happy, but by upgrading the X1, they released the B9s to upgrade a route that needs it, but can't be justified financially. If the B9s are good enough to stay on the X1 with a refurb, then they're good enough to go on the Crusader! You have to look at the bigger picture rather than focusing on routes that get new vehicles. 

With what you say about them needing to spend more money upgrading the older fleet, I do agree somewhat with that. To me, there's absolutely no point in refurbishing the Omnicities when they're going to be on their way in the next couple years. I personally wouldn't have refurbished the Citaros as to me that seemed a waste of money. It only makes sense to refurbish the vehicles that are going to be staying for many more years.  Out of the fleet they currently have, the only ones that I would personally think about refurbishing are the B9s, Versas, and if the Euro 6 upgrade goes well, the Coaster B5s. The older Streetlites have probably got a few more years left in them before they get refurbished, and even then only if they get the Euro 6 upgrade.

I agree with what you say about the 10, there's absolutely no need for new buses, a good refurb and they'll be as good as new!

(18 Jul 2020, 1:03 pm)Dan wrote Doing the maths of how many new buses are coming into the fleet between now and October, I would not be surprised to see the withdrawal of Mercedes Citaros from the fleet this year.


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Thats alot of buses as they'll be 70 of them down for withdrawal... but i doubt all 70 will get withdrawn this year?

How many Omnicities can be withdrawn?, as i'm sure some we're only in service for school contracts but the school term has finished now and i would imagine those are withsldrawn along side the 6920-6941 Presidents and Vykings are now fully withdrawn?

(19 Jul 2020, 4:15 pm)Dan wrote I disagree with your opinion.

Investment is clearly being focused around the company's new "X-lines" network, which obviously spirals predominantly out of Newcastle City Centre (so is required for the proposed Clean Air Zone, anyway). The investment into these routes means the buses currently allocated (of varying ages) cascade to replace much older buses, and there'll be a noticeable change on these services as it'll mean things like free Wi-Fi, power sockets and audio-visual announcements are introduced to some routes for the very first time.

Members of this forum have indicated in the past that they do not believe vehicle allocation is enough to convince customers to use the bus, but bus operators up and down the country have reported examples of patronage growth as a result of investment into new vehicles. I'm sure everyone will have a different opinion on this one and it could be argued that the investment into new vehicles has given marketing departments an opportunity to promote the service(s) more often which is the true reason for the growth, but the point here is that operators have reported this to be the case and as enthusiasts we probably have to believe that. With that in mind, a mere 1% of growth on a flagship route like the 21 is vastly different to 1% of growth on a much lesser route like the 25.

Go North East has to submit a business case for the purchase of new vehicles to its parent company, Go-Ahead Group, with fuel savings and potential patronage growth being two figures which will be included within this plan. I suspect it will be the same for other companies in a group PLC too. With the above point in mind, at Group level it makes much more sense to invest into a flagship route like the 21 if growth can come as a result of the investment. This is your main reason for key services being upgraded with brand new buses more often than lesser routes.

I would imagine customers on "Crusader" services 26/27 would welcome a permanent allocation of double-decks with open arms, given the unreliability of the Tyne & Wear Metro system, which often results in single-decks on services 26/27 being overcrowded or even full, leaving 'normal' bus passengers behind at bus stops. I don't believe for one minute they will envy customers on the X1 service and wish they had the buses from that route instead (let's face it, 95%+ of them won't use the X1 so won't know any different!)

I also disagree with your point about a good refurbishment comparing to the investment into a brand new bus. Are you suggesting that Go North East should have refurbished the old B7/Geminis on the X9/X10 services every five years instead of buying new buses? I'm sure passengers appreciate a bus looking pretty inside, when parked up at the side of the road...

I have to agree with Dan on this one. Arriva's MAX services should've been what GoNE's X-Lines services are.

I don't agree with everything GoNE do but as a whole, they do a decent job. At least "X-Lines" means "X-Lines" unlike Arriva who think a 52 plate tarted up ex-London B7TL rocked up on stand at Blyth ready to take the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11 is acceptable.

Stagecoach don't have an exactly new fleet but most of their Newcastle routes are basically hop on-hop off and although would benefit from some of the creature comforts, don't exactly need them. And Stagecoach keep their fleet in good condition too. I'm sure that if Stagecoach (and or GoNE) for that matter got a slice of the pie in Northumberland if Arriva got sold in divisions that they'd put some decent vehicles on the express routes to Newcastle.

(19 Jul 2020, 6:40 pm)L469 YVK wrote I have to agree with Dan on this one. Arriva's MAX services should've been what GoNE's X-Lines services are.

I don't agree with everything GoNE do but as a whole, they do a decent job. At least "X-Lines" means "X-Lines" unlike Arriva who think a 52 plate tarted up ex-London B7TL rocked up on stand at Blyth ready to take the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11 is acceptable.

While far from ideal, the B7TLs on those services have been refurbed to a good standard (and certainly don't feel their age inside) and meet the advertised spec. Not all of those routes will justify new vehicles, particularly the X9 which is usually quite quiet. If the vehicles are reliable, which I'm told they generally are, then I don't see a huge issue with using them on services which don't command new vehicles (or onto the 306, for example, to provide additional capacity). 

Outside of the NE, Transdev are a particularly good example of refurbing old buses and putting them to task on branded routes. 2003 B7TLs branded for their "CityZap" services.

(19 Jul 2020, 6:59 pm)mb134 wrote While far from ideal, the B7TLs on those services have been refurbed to a good standard (and certainly don't feel their age inside) and meet the advertised spec. Not all of those routes will justify new vehicles, particularly the X9 which is usually quite quiet. If the vehicles are reliable, which I'm told they generally are, then I don't see a huge issue with using them on services which don't command new vehicles (or onto the 306, for example, to provide additional capacity). 

Outside of the NE, Transdev are a particularly good example of refurbing old buses and putting them to task on branded routes. 2003 B7TLs branded for their "CityZap" services.

I have to disagree with you there slightly, it would be like me ordering a luxury taxi and the driver turning up in an 02 Audi A4, sure it still runs, and nice inside, but it's not what I wanted.

Now, in Arriva's case, they're not really promising that much, but with GNE having things like 'as posh as your car' stuck on the back of the bus, it's clear they're wanting to go for something a bit 'fancier' than refurbed 15 year old buses like Arriva do.

(19 Jul 2020, 6:40 pm)L469 YVK wrote I have to agree with Dan on this one. Arriva's MAX services should've been what GoNE's X-Lines services are.

I don't agree with everything GoNE do but as a whole, they do a decent job. At least "X-Lines" means "X-Lines" unlike Arriva who think a 52 plate tarted up ex-London B7TL rocked up on stand at Blyth ready to take the X7/X8/X9/X10/X11 is acceptable.

Stagecoach don't have an exactly new fleet but most of their Newcastle routes are basically hop on-hop off and although would benefit from some of the creature comforts, don't exactly need them. And Stagecoach keep their fleet in good condition too. I'm sure that if Stagecoach (and or GoNE) for that matter got a slice of the pie in Northumberland if Arriva got sold in divisions that they'd put some decent vehicles on the express routes to Newcastle.

It's only a spare bus though, there's no point have non Max deckers at Blyth as every route is Max branded now. There's also no point having newer buses sitting around doing nothing all day.

(19 Jul 2020, 6:59 pm)mb134 wrote While far from ideal, the B7TLs on those services have been refurbed to a good standard (and certainly don't feel their age inside) and meet the advertised spec. Not all of those routes will justify new vehicles, particularly the X9 which is usually quite quiet. If the vehicles are reliable, which I'm told they generally are, then I don't see a huge issue with using them on services which don't command new vehicles (or onto the 306, for example, to provide additional capacity). 

Outside of the NE, Transdev are a particularly good example of refurbing old buses and putting them to task on branded routes. 2003 B7TLs branded for their "CityZap" services.

tbf, they could all warrant new buses. 7601 - 7608 we're originally bought for the X7 and X8 anyway bar they were the 363/364 and X24/X25 (I think) at the time. The X9 is a funny one but it's pretty much the X3 at the Blyth end which was part of the next batch.

(19 Jul 2020, 7:12 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I have to disagree with you there slightly, it would be like me ordering a luxury taxi and the driver turning up in an 02 Audi A4, sure it still runs, and nice inside, but it's not what I wanted.

Now, in Arriva's case, they're not really promising that much, but with GNE having things like 'as posh as your car' stuck on the back of the bus, it's clear they're wanting to go for something a bit 'fancier' than refurbed 15 year old buses like Arriva do.

But then you've just justified why Arriva can use 52/03 plates on MAX services, despite your taxi analogy. 

MAX was never claimed to be luxury, instead it was to promote interurban services and happened to be specced with e-leather seating, WiFi (and power on later refurbs). 

As a comparison - the Consett express services using the ex-dealer stock and ex-London B9TLs have more recent vehicles yet worse spec. I know I'd prefer more comfortable seating than a newer bus. Nobody is saying 52-plate B7s are the epitome of luxury buses, but to anyone other than an enthusiast they'll likely be happy with the interior spec and not give a toss about the age unless the reliability is poor. 

This thread is now getting *very* off topic mind.

Some interesting points throughout these conversations. 

Dan mentioned growth due to vehicle allocations. I'm sure there are examples of this happening, just as there will be examples of numbers stagnating or not growing.
The 25 was hourly in its previous incarnation as the 725 (allocated the same vehicles as the 723, 231 etc) . It changed to the X25 at some point and recieved the Loylnes (still in their pink colour scheme from their days on the 21) and a brand name tied to the Bobby Robson charity.
Numbers clearly didn't grow to the levels anticipated (marketing and promotion done on the cheap perhaps?), the X prefix was dropped and it continued, with a mixed allocation of vehicles - often older Vxxx ERG Solars, having the same stopping arrangements (as far as I'm aware), as it did as the X25.
Trips were reduced and if there was a decker allocated, it was generally because of interworking with scholars.

Within that same period, the new housing development in Birtley was progressing. An ideal opportunity to grow and develop the route, pushing it to a greater frequency and offering it as an alternative to the Durham Road services.
Except, nothing happened. It was kept as a second tier service.

Whether punters on Portobello Road or Portmeads look on the 21 with envy, whether they don't bother with the 25 due to it using older vehicles or because of its frequency - only they can tell the powers that be.
As it can be quicker boarding one of the regular 21 or X21 services and walking up or hoping to land on an 82, maybe there are some clues there. 
Ditto, for those living in Eighton Banks and the plethora of services to Wrekenton, before a short walk for the final leg. 

There have already been points made about the people of Barley Mow and Vigo not using the bus to the QE. Timings, frequency and cost will just be some of the reasons they travel to/from the hospital in car or taxi and not bus. Im yet to see or hear of any positive pro-active or reactive measures to any drop in numbers on the 25 or other services. Just the traditional older vehicle allocation, lower frequencies or removing of the connections passengers had. 

There's many a reason these services are less popular and a half hearted push in the past, isn't suddenly going to fix the service or attract additional punters. Needless to say the lack of pushing since the Bobby Robson branded Loylnes were carted off elsewhere, won't have been any help. 

I posted elsewhere following on from Rob44's post about the 25 stopping at the other side of Gateshead Interchange to the 21. Yet there's nothing that I can see or that I'm aware of, that lets punters know of that alternative. 

Oh and to keep it relevant to the initial subject.
Those L94's should have gone a good while back imo and if the eminox upgrade programme had been managed differently, maybe they would have been. 
The allocation of L94's on the 194 when new, was what re-ignited my interest in public transport again. Despite working in transport at the time, it wasnt something which floated my boat on a personal level. The L94's changed that. 
However, I'm not sure their durability from a passenger perspective sustained itself as long as they were designed to.

(19 Jul 2020, 7:27 pm)mb134 wrote But then you've just justified why Arriva can use 52/03 plates on MAX services, despite your taxi analogy. 

MAX was never claimed to be luxury, instead it was to promote interurban services and happened to be specced with e-leather seating, WiFi (and power on later refurbs). 

As a comparison - the Consett express services using the ex-dealer stock and ex-London B9TLs have more recent vehicles yet worse spec. I know I'd prefer more comfortable seating than a newer bus. Nobody is saying 52-plate B7s are the epitome of luxury buses, but to anyone other than an enthusiast they'll likely be happy with the interior spec and not give a toss about the age unless the reliability is poor. 

This thread is now getting *very* off topic mind.

That's the point I was trying to make!
It's all about perception, like I say, if GNE are pushing the X-Lines brand as being 'premium' then you'd better bloody hope they have some fancy new buses on them. If you're waiting for the X21 expecting to get a bus with WiFi and USB, and an old, leaky OmniDekka turns up, you're not going to be happy!

Plus, X-Lines is basically Arriva's Sapphire but on their MAX routes, so to compare it directly to MAX is a bit cheeky IMO.

(19 Jul 2020, 7:34 pm)streetdeckfan wrote That's the point I was trying to make!
It's all about perception, like I say, if GNE are pushing the X-Lines brand as being 'premium' then you'd better bloody hope they have some fancy new buses on them. If you're waiting for the X21 expecting to get a bus with WiFi and USB, and an old, leaky OmniDekka turns up, you're not going to be happy!

Plus, X-Lines is basically Arriva's Sapphire but on their MAX routes, so to compare it directly to MAX is a bit cheeky IMO.

This is why Belmont need to seriously sort themselves out. They have multiple Sapphire routes yet their leading drivers clearly have absolutely no clue what buses are branded for what - though they've been a complete joke for years to be honest. Contrast that to, for example, Ashington who virtually always have their X21/22 fully Sapphire allocated.

GNE are always spot on with allocations for the most part, though I wonder what punters on the 21 and Cobalt services are making of the open-toppers...

(19 Jul 2020, 7:44 pm)mb134 wrote This is why Belmont need to seriously sort themselves out. They have multiple Sapphire routes yet their leading drivers clearly have absolutely no clue what buses are branded for what - though they've been a complete joke for years to be honest. Contrast that to, for example, Ashington who virtually always have their X21/22 fully Sapphire allocated.

GNE are always spot on with allocations for the most part, though I wonder what punters on the 21 and Cobalt services are making of the open-toppers...

Yeah, you never know what's going to turn up on the Arriva 6, could literally be anything! 

Honestly, you rarely see GNE run vehicles with the wrong branding, if one of the branded vehicles isn't running, most of the time it's a corporate liveried one of an equivalent spec.
Then again not that long back I seemed to get more OmniDekkas than StreetDecks on the X21!

(19 Jul 2020, 7:44 pm)mb134 wrote This is why Belmont need to seriously sort themselves out. They have multiple Sapphire routes yet their leading drivers clearly have absolutely no clue what buses are branded for what - though they've been a complete joke for years to be honest. Contrast that to, for example, Ashington who virtually always have their X21/22 fully Sapphire allocated.

GNE are always spot on with allocations for the most part, though I wonder what punters on the 21 and Cobalt services are making of the open-toppers...

(19 Jul 2020, 8:00 pm)streetdeckfan wrote Yeah, you never know what's going to turn up on the Arriva 6, could literally be anything! 

Honestly, you rarely see GNE run vehicles with the wrong branding, if one of the branded vehicles isn't running, most of the time it's a corporate liveried one of an equivalent spec.
Then again not that long back I seemed to get more OmniDekkas than StreetDecks on the X21!

tbf this is an operational choice at Blyth and Newcastle and I assume it's the same in Durham to keep buses on time or running. It's why Arriva should never brand routes as it doesn't work but personally I prefer it this way rather than curtailing services short at Gateshead or the Metro Centre or running around in threes like Stagecoach. I could understand for those into branding why they'd hate it though.

(19 Jul 2020, 10:34 pm)Storx wrote tbf this is an operational choice at Blyth and Newcastle and I assume it's the same in Durham to keep buses on time or running. It's why Arriva should never brand routes as it doesn't work but personally I prefer it this way rather than curtailing services short at Gateshead or the Metro Centre or running around in threes like Stagecoach. I could understand for those into branding why they'd hate it though.

It's not really the branding that gets me, it's the putting low spec vehicles on routes that are advertised as having certain features like USB and WiFi.

(19 Jul 2020, 10:44 pm)streetdeckfan wrote It's not really the branding that gets me, it's the putting low spec vehicles on routes that are advertised as having certain features like USB and WiFi.

Yeah get that, tbh when I was talking about having a uniform fleet this is when you badly need it. It works at Blyth as everything Max similar at Ashington as the X21/X22 just work by itself with the X14/15/18/20 doing the same up North which are all Max.

Could understand how it's a bit of a nightmare at Durham though where some are Max, some are Frequenta, some are Sapphire and some are nothing. Similar with Jesmond where you have eco, Sapphire, Max and normal and usually they're just all over the place.

It seems going forward that they've done this now though with the standard livery pretty much being Max - if they ever actually refurbish anything into it.

Storx
Yeah get that, tbh when I was talking about having a uniform fleet this is when you badly need it. It works at Blyth as everything Max similar at Ashington as the X21/X22 just work by itself with the X14/15/18/20 doing the same up North which are all Max.

Could understand how it's a bit of a nightmare at Durham though where some are Max, some are Frequenta, some are Sapphire and some are nothing. Similar with Jesmond where you have eco, Sapphire, Max and normal and usually they're just all over the place. 

It seems going forward that they've done this now though with the standard livery pretty much being Max - if they ever actually refurbish anything into it.

The issue with Durham, in my experience at least, is that they don't even seem to make an effort to route brand correctly. With Blyth and Jesmond you can tell in the morning that they've generally tried the best they can (even if it's just the brand, and specific route branding is still all over the place), but throughout the day they prioritise service punctuality levels over anything else. 

Durham always seem to just put out whatever they fancy. When I got the 6 the other day, both 7456 and 7494 were on there - neither even branded, let alone "Sapphire". 7519 and 7521, Sapphire E400s, were on the MAX 48/X46, alongside 7455, ONE(!) X46 B7TL and then a handful of single decks. The X12 (MAX) that day had, from Durham, two standard spec Pulsars (1409/1510), two Sapphire Pulsars (1517/1524) and a Streetlite (1596), and one MAX Pulsar (1482). This isn't one or two incorrectly allocated buses, it's leading drivers and depot management giving the bare minimum and having zero pride in the work they're doing.

Arriva Durham County, generally bar Stockton, have always seemed to operate at a lower standard than Northumbria have - be it in vehicle appearance, driver friendliness or pride in what they're doing. That's by no means to say Northumbria are always good at those things I've mentioned, but from a passengers perspective I always feel more welcomed by drivers north of the Tyne - and that the buses operated by those depots have a bit more TLC.