This just popped into my head. Would be surprised if anything was ordered for the NE anytime soon but if Arriva do order late this year / next year..........I could perhaps see the X93 getting new E400MMCs (ZF). 

Given the recent events affecting everywhere globally and other reasons why people perhaps might not go abroad and opt for a 'staycation', the X93 would be the perfect route in terms of growth and attracting tourists.

The B9TLs with 2x kept as 'NE floats' could then be sent to Ashington for the X14 or X20 allowing older E400s to be cascaded down and older double deck vehicles to be withdrawn.

Arriva should invest into upgrading their existing fleet first, that's if they have any money after Government support ends.

No chance of anything new. They'll just continue the cycle of bringing 12-14 year old stuff up from down south to replace the 18-20 year old shite they have up here.

(27 Sep 2020, 6:38 pm)L469 YVK wrote This just popped into my head. Would be surprised if anything was ordered for the NE anytime soon but if Arriva do order late this year / next year..........I could perhaps see the X93 getting new E400MMCs (ZF). 

Given the recent events affecting everywhere globally and other reasons why people perhaps might not go abroad and opt for a 'staycation', the X93 would be the perfect route in terms of growth and attracting tourists.

The B9TLs with 2x kept as 'NE floats' could then be sent to Ashington for the X14 or X20 allowing older E400s to be cascaded down and older double deck vehicles to be withdrawn.

Do ADL now offer the E400 with the option of a ZF? I believe they didn't when it was newer hence why 7541-52 have Voith gearboxes.

I would think if the X93 are receiving new Vehicles this/next year then the X18 will be too since the E400s allocated to that are roughly the same age as the B9s and brings in a fair few tourists towards the Summer.

I might be a bore but I'd rather see investment on routes which are busy all year round rather than one 3 month a year, especially when the buses on there are fine as they are and none of the below need old Enviros bar maybe the X46.

X26/X27 - 15 year old Omnicities
X66 / X67 - 15 year old Omnicities
X46 - Ex London ALX400
306 - Whatever Jesmond fancy on the day
1/2/57/57A/58 - 14/15 year old MPD's
685 - 13 year old Omnicities

(28 Sep 2020, 10:03 am)Cobalt271 wrote Do ADL now offer the E400 with the option of a ZF? I believe they didn't when it was newer hence why 7541-52 have Voith gearboxes.

I would think if the X93 are receiving new Vehicles this/next year then the X18 will be too since the E400s allocated to that are roughly the same age as the B9s and brings in a fair few tourists towards the Summer.

ADL have always offered ZF on the MMC but only recently with 'stop-start' like the XLines examples purchased by GNE for Consett & Hexham. That's why Arriva went with Voith for 7541-52.

Quick question, why were the Streetlites taken off the 306 and put on the 52/53/54

(28 Sep 2020, 4:52 pm)V514DFT wrote Quick question, why were the Streetlites taken off the 306 and put on the 52/53/54

Probably due to reduced Covid capacities.

(28 Sep 2020, 4:52 pm)V514DFT wrote Quick question, why were the Streetlites taken off the 306 and put on the 52/53/54

Was part of the Max upgrade for the 306 and 308 and then they had the spare Streetlites on the 43 needing a new home as part of their Sapphire upgrade. So made sense to refurbish the Pulsars to Max and having them on the 306 and the full batch of Streetlites on the 52/53/54 rather than half the batch as Max on the 306 and half on the 52/53/54 as electric branding. I believe there were rumours at the time for a swap of the Streetlites and Temsas at Redcar but Jesmond refused them.

(28 Sep 2020, 10:39 am)Storx wrote I might be a bore but I'd rather see investment on routes which are busy all year round rather than one 3 month a year, especially when the buses on there are fine as they are and none of the below need old Enviros bar maybe the X46.

X26/X27 - 15 year old Omnicities
X66 / X67 - 15 year old Omnicities - Both X26/X27 & X66/X67 would be a good shout for new single deck vehicles
X46 - Ex London ALX400 - Upgrading the X93 and at a stretch the X18, would allow a cascade of double decks
306 - Whatever Jesmond fancy on the day - Got other thoughts on that, see below
1/2/57/57A/58 - 14/15 year old MPD's - Good shout for new mini / midibuses
685 - 13 year old Omnicities - Is it a profitable enough route long term?

The 306 is an interesting one. I can see a potential upgrade coming but I do reckon going forward that Arriva will streamline both the 306 & 308 including interworking and reducing frequency to streamline both services for reasons previously discussed. Don't want to go into too much discussion here as this is more about orders but could continue in service suggestions.

On another note, perhaps if Arriva upgrade the X18 & X93 they should take the opportunity to relaunch 'MAX' as a premium express service, similar to GoNE's XLines. Bike racks would be a very welcome addition on both sets of routes.

I'm only really know the Tees area so here are my suggestion:

New single deckers (ADL Enviro 200mmc seems the best shout) for new 'Express lines' operating on X26/X27, X66/X67 and X3/X4. Streetlites to go on less demanding work (probably the 15). Omnicities to replace the smaller Centros at Stockton and would have a brief spell at Redcar to finish off Temsa refurbs.

(28 Sep 2020, 10:39 am)Storx wrote I might be a bore but I'd rather see investment on routes which are busy all year round rather than one 3 month a year, especially when the buses on there are fine as they are and none of the below need old Enviros bar maybe the X46.

I'm not sure about the X93 but the X18s current allocation of E400s are far from fine. They are well knackered after being hammered for 6 years now. The plus with investment in a route like this is that it sends the vehicles to displace ones much older whilst giving the vehicle an easier life pre 'retirement'

(27 Sep 2020, 8:35 pm)Driver9*** wrote No chance of anything new. They'll just continue the cycle of bringing 12-14 year old stuff up from down south to replace the 18-20 year old shite they have up here.

Sadly with the current circumstances (COVID and DB wanting rid), I do worry we'll go back to the dark days of the 2000s with knackered buses trundling around in an appalling state (i.e. Blyth's Cityzens) looking for passengers.

(29 Sep 2020, 11:36 pm)solsburian wrote Sadly with the current circumstances (COVID and DB wanting rid), I do worry we'll go back to the dark days of the 2000s with knackered buses trundling around in an appalling state (i.e. Blyth's Cityzens) looking for passengers.

DB are/were asking way too much money, anyone taking over operations knows find well that a heavy investment is needed in refurbished and new vehicles.


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(30 Sep 2020, 7:06 am)cbma06 wrote DB are/were asking way too much money, anyone taking over operations knows find well that a heavy investment is needed in refurbished and new vehicles.


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The issue is the longer they leave Arriva without any investment, the less Arriva will be 'worth' due to the amount of investment needed by the new owners to bring it back up to standard.

Cobalt271 wroteI'm not sure about the X93 but the X18s current allocation of E400s are far from fine. They are well knackered after being hammered for 6 years now. The plus with investment in a route like this is that it sends the vehicles to displace ones much older whilst giving the vehicle an easier life pre 'retirement'

There's other routes which are in a worst state though. The 57 has had a full size single or a decker on every day this week as 1800/1801/2809/2812/2813 are all knackered. 2812/2813 both being off the road atm. There's not anywhere that really needs more Enviro's in the North East fleet, it's singles and minis (especially) that are getting pretty desperate.

Same as 15 year old Scanias aren't suited for flagship routes such as the X26/X27/X66/X67.

It wouldn't surprise me if some ex London Gemini's turn up soon from London to replace 7410 - 7415 and 7484 - 7491. If they had any sense they'd get a few more and move 1401 - 1402, 1493, 1497, 1501 - 1505, 1579 - 1580 out of Blyth and Ashington for somewhere else as they're not suited to the routes they serve especially once Blyth have juggled everything around with the 35 being a full Gemini allocation.

(29 Sep 2020, 11:36 pm)solsburian wrote Sadly with the current circumstances (COVID and DB wanting rid), I do worry we'll go back to the dark days of the 2000s with knackered buses trundling around in an appalling state (i.e. Blyth's Cityzens) looking for passengers.

Tbf Arriva / Northumbria have always invested in batches though. It's the same with Stagecoach's fleet which is getting a bit old in places aswell. There's no point in replacing things that aren't needed. The majority of the single / decker fleet really doesn't need replacing atm and there's nowhere for them to go. Minis will be next in line though and maybe something for the Scania's in terms of new buses though imo.

Remember the Cityzens and Europeans were only 13 year old when they were started to get replaced which isn't great for a full size single or decker (should be 15 year) but they we're built like a sieve and leaked everywhere. Amazingly some of them we're still running to the DDA deadline - god knows how. The Northern Counties Scanias we're much worse though with their bus seats and leg room that only a child could get in though imo and very outdated interior.

(30 Sep 2020, 8:37 am)streetdeckfan wrote The issue is the longer they leave Arriva without any investment, the less Arriva will be 'worth' due to the amount of investment needed by the new owners to bring it back up to standard.

It'll likely end up being sold off bit by bit - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the North East ops got split back into Northumbria and Durham County in any sale. The culture and mindset has always seemed to differ hugely between them. 

Look at the Ashington, Blyth and Jesmond operations and imagine what someone like Alex Hornby would do with them, with Transdev behind it.

(30 Sep 2020, 8:51 am)mb134 wrote It'll likely end up being sold off bit by bit - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the North East ops got split back into Northumbria and Durham County in any sale. The culture and mindset has always seemed to differ hugely between them. 

Look at the Ashington, Blyth and Jesmond operations and imagine what someone like Alex Hornby would do with them, with Transdev behind it.

I'd quite like GNE to take back services in County Durham, despite Darlington being much closer, I'd much rather travel north using GNE than south using Arriva. On the off chance that I need to go to Middlesbrough, I'll travel to Gateshead and take the X9/X10 rather than use Arriva.

I can't even say it's because I pay for the monthly GNE pass anymore, I stopped that in March!

I agree, i cant really comment on Blyth services, but i know the 08 solos are showing their age now big time,some of them sound like crap aswell

(30 Sep 2020, 8:47 am)Storx wrote Tbf Arriva / Northumbria have always invested in batches though. It's the same with Stagecoach's fleet which is getting a bit old in places aswell. There's no point in replacing things that aren't needed. The majority of the single / decker fleet really doesn't need replacing atm and there's nowhere for them to go. Minis will be next in line though and maybe something for the Scania's in terms of new buses though imo.

Remember the Cityzens and Europeans were only 13 year old when they were started to get replaced which isn't great for a full size single or decker (should be 15 year) but they we're built like a sieve and leaked everywhere. Amazingly some of them we're still running to the DDA deadline - god knows how. The Northern Counties Scanias we're much worse though with their bus seats and leg room that only a child could get in though imo and very outdated interior.

There was seemingly a lull in batch ordering during that period though, particularly with for larger buses until 2007 or so with the Enviros. Of course things shouldn't be replaced for the sake of it though I'm sure some of the fleet at the time would have faired much better with a GNE style refurb, or at least had a frequent cleaning regime.

TBH the Cityzens probably should have gone much sooner, they were absolute heaps from a fairly young age. I have "fond" memories of the leaking water through the light fittings, cracks where daylight would appear when going round a corner and mouldy side carpets.

(30 Sep 2020, 8:51 am)mb134 wrote It'll likely end up being sold off bit by bit - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the North East ops got split back into Northumbria and Durham County in any sale. The culture and mindset has always seemed to differ hugely between them. 

Look at the Ashington, Blyth and Jesmond operations and imagine what someone like Alex Hornby would do with them, with Transdev behind it.

My prediction if the NE ops get sold:
- Ashington > GNE
- Blyth > Stagecoach
- Jesmond > GNE & split between Riverside / Percy Main with a new depot replacing Percy Main. Stagecoach get 685 and 306
- Darlington & Belmont > Stagecoach with them also getting X12
- Stockton > GNE with X9/X10 moved or shared with Riverside
- Redcar & Whitby >Transdev

Fleet wise, I wouldn't see GNE wanting 7541-7552 due to shorter length & Voith gearboxes so I'd imagine they'd strike a deal with Stagecoach in return for extra VDL DB300s. Would come in handy for Misc & School workings as well as a few rare ventures out on the X30/X70/X71 due to their low height. Don't know what the PVR is but 7541-52 would perhaps come in handy on the Stagecoach 1 (Slatyford) due to their shorter length & tight turns & streets on the route.

(30 Sep 2020, 1:43 pm)solsburian wrote There was seemingly a lull in batch ordering during that period though, particularly with for larger buses until 2007 or so with the Enviros. Of course things shouldn't be replaced for the sake of it though I'm sure some of the fleet at the time would have faired much better with a GNE style refurb, or at least had a frequent cleaning regime.

TBH the Cityzens probably should have gone much sooner, they were absolute heaps from a fairly young age. I have "fond" memories of the leaking water through the light fittings, cracks where daylight would appear when going round a corner and mouldy side carpets.

Yeah agreed there, the Temsas Blyth got dumped with we're pretty grim aswell especially the fact the windows were stuck with explorer holders trying to keep them shut as everytime they went along a fast part with a small gust of wind they'd blow open. Horrid things.

On the Cityzens I'll never forget a mushroom growing from the side carpets - grim indeed. Mind the fact they never bothered to fix the idling problem can't have helped them neither to the stage that drivers we're reving the engine at bus stops it's that bad - can't do anything any good. 

(30 Sep 2020, 5:56 pm)L469 YVK wrote My prediction if the NE ops get sold:
- Ashington > GNE
- Blyth > Stagecoach
- Jesmond > GNE & split between Riverside / Percy Main with a new depot replacing Percy Main. Stagecoach get 685 and 306
- Darlington & Belmont > Stagecoach with them also getting X12
- Stockton > GNE with X9/X10 moved or shared with Riverside
- Redcar & Whitby >Transdev

Fleet wise, I wouldn't see GNE wanting 7541-7552 due to shorter length & Voith gearboxes so I'd imagine they'd strike a deal with Stagecoach in return for extra VDL DB300s. Would come in handy for Misc & School workings as well as a few rare ventures out on the X30/X70/X71 due to their low height. Don't know what the PVR is but 7541-52 would perhaps come in handy on the Stagecoach 1 (Slatyford) due to their shorter length & tight turns & streets on the route.

I know your trying to do this for competition reasons but Blyth, Jesmond and Ashington need to go to the same operator (and not GNE - they've already butchered N. Tyneside as it is). You'd totally kill the network otherwise as where I live we have 2 routes and with your plans one would be Stagecoach and the other GNE with no form of intermodel tickets available. It wouldn't be sustainable for both operators and it'll end up being cuts, cuts and cuts which GNE and Stagecoach are quite good at lately in Sunderland. Similar story around Ashington / Bedlington, you'd have GNE doing the busy routes and Stagecoach running minibus services, not sustainable at all.

As others have said I'd rather have someone like Transdev personally to bring something new to the area who don't cut services all the time and are actually quite creative at times but aren't Arriva just getting floated on the stock exchange instead now anyway rather than sold..?

Also why would GNE want DB300's when they're all based at Blyth and already have Enviros in their fleet it makes no sense to bring a random bus into the fleet that they've never worked with and never will work with since Arriva own the VDL rights in the UK and the 308 ones can't move out of N. Tyneside anyway as they've had Euro 6 mods done.

I can't see GNE or Stagecoach wanting the Arriva operations. The only depot making any kind of profit was Blyth, Ashington barely broke even and Jesmond has been a loss maker for years, add in covid and it becomes even less attractive.

(30 Sep 2020, 7:05 pm)Driver9*** wrote I can't see GNE or Stagecoach wanting the Arriva operations. The only depot making any kind of profit was Blyth, Ashington barely broke even and Jesmond has been a loss maker for years, add in covid and it becomes even less attractive.

• Blyth would be a good money maker for Stagecoach particularly the X10/X11 which fit into their high frequency route profile.
  
  
• Ashington with some investment and proper marketing would fit perfectly under GNE's 'XLines' brand. The 35 is a similar type of route to the X5/X15 out of Consett and could imagine GNE providing some decent investment although perhaps not under XLines. Ashington would also allow GNE to keep running the long 19's viably and reduce dead mileage.
  
  
• Jesmond would again be good for GNE as that could just be split between Percy Main & Riverside depending on how GNE would restructure the incoming and existing routes to provide parity. Could also create growth in North Tyneside and create a business case to replace Percy Main depot with a new depot.
  

(30 Sep 2020, 7:05 pm)Driver9*** wrote I can't see GNE or Stagecoach wanting the Arriva operations. The only depot making any kind of profit was Blyth, Ashington barely broke even and Jesmond has been a loss maker for years, add in covid and it becomes even less attractive.

I can see GNE wanting the services out of Durham just to fill out the big missing area on their map!

(30 Sep 2020, 6:45 pm)Storx wrote I know your trying to do this for competition reasons but Blyth, Jesmond and Ashington need to go to the same operator (and not GNE - they've already butchered N. Tyneside as it is). 

That's exactly what the CMA would want.

As others have said I'd rather have someone like Transdev personally to bring something new to the area who don't cut services all the time and are actually quite creative at times but aren't Arriva just getting floated on the stock exchange instead now anyway rather than sold..?

Redcar & Whitby would fit their profile a lot better and potentially tie in with their existing North Yorks Blazefield operations.

Also why would GNE want DB300's when they're all based at Blyth and already have Enviros in their fleet it makes no sense to bring a random bus into the fleet that they've never worked with and never will work with since Arriva own the VDL rights in the UK and the 308 ones can't move out of N. Tyneside anyway as they've had Euro 6 mods done.

Arriva's 7541-7552 in comparison to GNE's 6338-6355 are not to GNE's spec. Wrong seats, wrong length and wrong gearbox to start with. These would be perfect for Stagecoach particularly on tighter routes either in Newcastle or elsewhere. On the other hand, DB300's would fill the role perfectly fulfilled by GNE's B7TLs and OmniDekkas. Don't know if they'd cope with some of the more fierce parts of the X70/X71 though if they had to cover for a 'low height' decker on the X30/X70/X71 board haha!

(30 Sep 2020, 10:39 am)V514DFT wrote I agree, i cant really comment on Blyth services, but i know the 08 solos are showing their age now big time,some of them sound like crap aswell

The entire minibus fleet is an absolute disgrace. I think the newest Solos are 9 or 10 years old, Blyth and Ashington are still using 15 year old Darts.

(30 Sep 2020, 7:20 pm)streetdeckfan wrote I can see GNE wanting the services out of Durham just to fill out the big missing area on their map!

Whether or not the CMA would allow would be another question.

(30 Sep 2020, 7:20 pm)L469 YVK wrote

• I know your trying to do this for competition reasons but Blyth, Jesmond and Ashington need to go to the same operator (and not GNE - they've already butchered N. Tyneside as it is). That's exactly what the CMA would want.As others have said I'd rather have someone like Transdev personally to bring something new to the area who don't cut services all the time and are actually quite creative at times but aren't Arriva just getting floated on the stock exchange instead now anyway rather than sold..?Redcar & Whitby would fit their profile a lot better and potentially tie in with their existing North Yorks Blazefield operations.Also why would GNE want DB300's when they're all based at Blyth and already have Enviros in their fleet it makes no sense to bring a random bus into the fleet that they've never worked with and never will work with since Arriva own the VDL rights in the UK and the 308 ones can't move out of N. Tyneside anyway as they've had Euro 6 mods done.Arriva's 7541-7552 in comparison to GNE's 6338-6355 are not to GNE's spec. Wrong seats, wrong length and wrong gearbox to start with. These would be perfect for Stagecoach particularly on tighter routes either in Newcastle or elsewhere. On the other hand, DB300's would fill the role perfectly fulfilled by GNE's B7TLs and OmniDekkas. Don't know if they'd cope with some of the more fierce parts of the X70/X71 though if they had to cover for a 'low height' decker on the X30/X70/X71 board haha!

I know where your coming from but for someone living in the area it would be horrendous. It's bad enough as it is the fact we have a Metro line 2 mile away and the only ticket you can use on both is a £10.90 explorer ticket or pay a inflated price for a return on the bus by both GNE (19) - £4 or something stupid now I believe and Arriva (57) - £3.40

At least we can get a bus pass we can use to Newcastle, Whitley, Cramlington, Blyth etc. If you split the depots we'd need one for Newcastle / Blyth then a second one for Whitley / Cramlington. You don't realise how much you'd cripple the network around here which would lead to cuts (X7, tagged onto the end of the X63) sort of stunts leading to less people using buses, night buses gone and so on. At Blyth the X10/X11/308 might do well but the rest of the routes would really struggle.

Jesmond less so but Ashington and Blyth badly need to be the same operator or you'd cripple the SE Northumberland network as similar patterns would happen in other areas aswell. Cowpen for example has 3 services X8 (Stagecoach), 1 and 2 (GNE) it just wouldn't work. Bedlington Station. 1 (Stagecoach), 19 (GNE), X21 (GNE) for another. Once the train comes (if it does) it'll be ever worse as all 3 of those places will have the train aswell.

Agreed on Whitby being a good combination for Transdev though.

(30 Sep 2020, 7:47 pm)Storx wrote I know where your coming from but for someone living in the area it would be horrendous. It's bad enough as it is the fact we have a Metro line 2 mile away and the only ticket you can use on both is a £10.90 explorer ticket or pay a inflated price for a return on the bus by both GNE (19) - £4 or something stupid now I believe and Arriva (57) - £3.40

At least we can get a bus pass we can use to Newcastle, Whitley, Cramlington, Blyth etc. If you split the depots we'd need one for Newcastle / Blyth then a second one for Whitley / Cramlington. You don't realise how much you'd cripple the network around here which would lead to cuts (X7, tagged onto the end of the X63) sort of stunts leading to less people using buses, night buses gone and so on. At Blyth the X10/X11/308 might do well but the rest of the routes would really struggle.

Jesmond less so but Ashington and Blyth badly need to be the same operator or you'd cripple the SE Northumberland network as similar patterns would happen in other areas aswell. Cowpen for example has 3 services X8 (Stagecoach), 1 and 2 (GNE) it just wouldn't work. Bedlington Station. 1 (Stagecoach), 19 (GNE), X21 (GNE) for another. Once the train comes (if it does) it'll be ever worse as all 3 of those places will have the train aswell.

Agreed on Whitby being a good combination for Transdev though.

1 & 2 would be Stagecoach as they're Blyth routes. Agree with what you're saying but would the CMA agree after the red meat fiasco?