(05 Dec 2013, 5:56 pm)aureolin wrote I used the 20 daily for a couple of years, and it was always packed? Houghton to Durham anyway... You were often educated on what a tinned sardine feels like on a morning or afternoon rush.

I agree, the Prince Bishops always seems full, more so than the Laser.

(03 Jan 2014, 8:59 pm)Greg in Weardale wrote I agree, the Prince Bishops always seems full, more so than the Laser.

I would have to agree. I'd have to put Prince Bishops before Laser in terms of requiring deckers. I'd say decked for the 20 are certainly required soon, buses are often packed. I'd say Sunderland side of the route is busier than the Durham route, however, I think deckers would be certainly an advantage, some of the prince bishops are starting to become a bit weak. New vehicles are needed sooner rather than later I'd say.

(03 Jan 2014, 9:11 pm)CatsFast101 wrote I would have to agree. I'd have to put Prince Bishops before Laser in terms of requiring deckers. I'd say decked for the 20 are certainly required soon, buses are often packed. I'd say Sunderland side of the route is busier than the Durham route, however, I think deckers would be certainly an advantage, some of the prince bishops are starting to become a bit weak. New vehicles are needed sooner rather than later I'd say.

But which makes more money?
Across the PVR, the Laser may generate more profit than the Prince Bishops. It begs the question - why hasn't the Prince Bishops had an upgrade sooner? Just a little re-brand.

(03 Jan 2014, 9:14 pm)Dan wrote But which makes more money?
Across the PVR, the Laser may generate more profit than the Prince Bishops. It begs the question - why hasn't the Prince Bishops had an upgrade sooner? Just a little re-brand.

I would have thought the 20 made more money than the 35's going from the GNE zonal system alone.

However, the 20's don't face any competition apart from the small section between Gilesgate Moor and North Road...

(03 Jan 2014, 9:35 pm)andreos1 wrote I would have thought the 20 made more money than the 35's going from the GNE zonal system alone.

However, the 20's don't face any competition apart from the small section between Gilesgate Moor and North Road...

I guess we'll never know... If a service justifies investment, it will receive it.
The Prince Bishops hasn't received that for quite some time - the Laser has received Citaros... Now it's speculated that the Laser is in line to receive B9s? It must be doing something right.

(03 Jan 2014, 9:39 pm)Dan wrote I guess we'll never know... If a service justifies investment, it will receive it.
The Prince Bishops hasn't received that for quite some time - the Laser has received Citaros... Now it's speculated that the Laser is in line to receive B9s? It must be doing something right.

Just going from my trips on both.

35's - local travel to/from Houghton and steady loads between Sunderland/Herrington. Steady between Shields and Sunderland.
Competition from Stagecoach in two distinct areas and to an extent Metro.

20's - Very few stops on Durham Road, but decent loads between Sunderland/Houghton. Decent locally on either diversion between Houghton and East Rainton and decent loads to/from Durham, with regular standing between Carville and Durham.
Very little competition apart from small section of route in Durham. Arriva being preferred option.

Whether those views tie up with official opinions, who knows...

Excluding peaks, as I assume both are good then, which has more fare paying passengers? I don't use either service enough to know, especially given the times I'm limited to during term time.
I suspect the Prince Bishops would have justified investment this year if it was as amazing as everyone thinks...

(03 Jan 2014, 9:48 pm)Dan wrote Excluding peaks, as I assume both are good then, which has more fare paying passengers? I don't use either service enough to know, especially given the times I'm limited to during term time.
I suspect the Prince Bishops would have justified investment this year if it was as amazing as everyone thinks...

The 35 picks up quite a few passes due to the route it takes via Estates and on a nice day, who wouldn't head to Shields for a fish n chips pensioners special?
It sticks solely in the red zone and attracts additional low fares via the Sunderland City zone (or whatever it is called).

The 20 goes on a much more direct route, omitting any Estates (bar Hall Lane) and passengers incur extra charges with it going into Co Durham/green zone.

Two very different services, serving different markets.
I do think the competition aspect has played a part in decision making.

(03 Jan 2014, 9:54 pm)andreos1 wrote The 35 picks up quite a few passes due to the route it takes via Estates and on a nice day, who wouldn't head to Shields for a fish n chips pensioners special?
It sticks solely in the red zone and attracts additional low fares via the Sunderland City zone (or whatever it is called).

The 20 goes on a much more direct route, omitting any Estates (bar Hall Lane) and passengers incur extra charges with it going into Co Durham/green zone.

Two very different services, serving different markets.
I do think the competition aspect has played a part in decision making.

Perhaps it is the lower fares which attract custom to the Laser, compared to the Prince Bishops which has higher fares?

While competition may have been a factor considered, I do not think it would have ultimate decider - profit levels would have been. I guess we, as enthusiasts, won't ever know though - we will have to settle for questioning the decision instead.

(03 Jan 2014, 9:58 pm)Dan wrote Perhaps it is the lower fares which attract custom to the Laser, compared to the Prince Bishops which has higher fares?

While competition may have been a factor considered, I do not think it would have ultimate decider - profit levels would have been. I guess we, as enthusiasts, won't ever know though - we will have to settle for questioning the decision instead.

Nowt wrong with a bit debate, analysis or guess work though eh?

Not sure the higher fares discourage people from the 20.
It is an established service and unless people have access to a car, there isn't much choice but to use the 20 for cross border trips.

(03 Jan 2014, 10:04 pm)andreos1 wrote Nowt wrong with a bit debate, analysis or guess work though eh?

Not sure the higher fares discourage people from the 20.
It is an established service and unless people have access to a car, there isn't much choice but to use the 20 for cross border trips.

Well passenger numbers on the 20/20A were mixed today. 5213 on the 20A left Durham Millburngate full, around 3:30. But the next one, which was 4990, left with only 5 or so passengers

(03 Jan 2014, 10:04 pm)andreos1 wrote Nowt wrong with a bit debate, analysis or guess work though eh?

Not sure the higher fares discourage people from the 20.
It is an established service and unless people have access to a car, there isn't much choice but to use the 20 for cross border trips.

What's the ticket prices like on the 24 - a service which does compete with the 20? If someone is travelling from Park Lane all the way to Durham and there's a significant difference in ticket prices..?

Same goes for the Laser. If that's managing to beat competition hands down with ticket prices, well there you go... It's bringing in some of the competition'd revenue too.

Must be noted that there are significantly earlier runs on the Laser than the Bishop. Not sure if these are secured or commerically operated, but I've used the first 35 towards Shields on multiple occasions and have been forced to stand... Uh, three passengers on the first 20 this morning leaving Park Lane.

(03 Jan 2014, 10:08 pm)Tom wrote Well passenger numbers on the 20/20A were mixed today. 5213 on the 20A left Durham Millburngate full, around 3:30. But the next one, which was 4990, left with only 5 or so passengers

An interesting point. If the network is not stable and some journeys are departing close to empty, why would you invest in it over a service which does seem to be quite consistent (with similar loadings)?

(03 Jan 2014, 10:09 pm)Dan wrote What's the ticket prices like on the 24 - a service which does compete with the 20? If someone is travelling from Park Lane all the way to Durham and there's a significant difference in ticket prices..?

Same goes for the Laser. If that's managing to beat competition hands down with ticket prices, well there you go... It's bringing in some of the competition'd revenue too.

Must be noted that there are significantly earlier runs on the Laser than the Bishop. Not sure if these are secured or commerically operated, but I've used the first 35 towards Shields on multiple occasions and have been forced to stand... Uh, three passengers on the first 20 this morning leaving Park Lane.

No idea.
Going from memory alone, there are a number of early morning secured services on the 35. A quick check of the old timetables will tell you (when the secured services were indicated).

No idea about the 20 being secured, possibly not due to the nature of the route.

No idea about the prices on the 24 either, but I do know the journey time is a tad bit longer than the 20. Presumably not attracting through passengers like the 20 does.

I often get one of the early 20's from Houghton on a morning to Durham.
The 20a and x20 are good examples to draw on - very few seats left at Houghton when I get on, emptying the majority of passengers when it gets to Rainton Bridge NPower.
By the time it gets to Leazes Bowl, it is standing room only again.

More or less two full loads on one trip can't be bad can it?

I believe aureloin compared it to sardines in a can at times.

It definately has the edge over the 35a between Houghton and Rainton Bridge, due to it running through i.e it picks up, drops of and carries passengers beyond (35a can't do the latter).

Quite a few 35 passengers between Houghton and Low Moorsley use the 20s between Houghton and Sunderland, preferring to change buses and have shorter/quicker journeys.

I'm surprised GNE haven't willingly taken on the secured runs if that's the case... Standing at 4-5am in the morning? A sign of a good service if you ask me, one of which seems attractive to operate commercially.

Like I said in my previous post... Considered the consistensy of passenger numbers? If the ones on the Laser are consisently high over a service which has highs, lows, in betweens... I can definitely see why the Laser is being rumoured further investment into double decked vehicles and the Bishops just cascades to see if things improve (oh, a little like the Crusader, also down as a service potentially receiving investment next year).

(03 Jan 2014, 10:35 pm)Dan wrote I'm surprised GNE haven't willingly taken on the secured runs if that's the case... Standing at 4-5am in the morning? A sign of a good service if you ask me, one of which seems attractive to operate commercially.

Like I said in my previous post... Considered the consistensy of passenger numbers? If the ones on the Laser are consisently high over a service which has highs, lows, in betweens... I can definitely see why the Laser is being rumoured further investment into double decked vehicles and the Bishops just cascades to see if things improve (oh, a little like the Crusader, also down as a service potentially receiving investment next year).

There is a 4oclock in the morning?!

Just guessing here, but maybe the secured bit is towards Sunderland from the Low Moorsley direction (where loadings are bound to be lower).

Standing room at that time of the morning, on a frequent service like that?
Surprised they don't use dupes or stick deckers on to ease the crowding if it is always that busy (can swap later in morning)!
Apart from shift workers at Port of Tyne, I have no idea why so many people would be doing the trip.

Yeah, I have considered the consistency of passenger numbers too (see previous comments on the 20 consistently picking up passengers who prefer it over the 35 between Houghton and Sunderland).

Edit. I forgot about the ongoing issues the Solars had in 2013 too.

Edit edit. Another point to make is the size of the PVR.
Replacing the fleet on the 35's and displacing them elsewhere has a massive impact on replacing older vehicles - more so than the 20's, which has a smaller PVR.

Replace the Solar's on the 20's and you still have a few older vehicles (which are past it) kicking about.

Going to stick my two peneth in, I've noticed the 20 I get most weeks from Durham into Sunderland. And the journey if get most Tuesday and the occasional Thursday is the 12:52 departure and that departs with steady passengers of about 12-14 passengers, a few pensioners but majority paying passengers, usual two teenagers who pay 90p also. However if I'm delayed, I get the 1:02 journey and have noticed this to be much more packed, I once was finished my meeting early and went to Durham City retail park, and upon boarding the 20 was forced to stand all the way until Houghton!
Meanwhile, the 35 is equally as hitty missy I don't use the 35 very often but I use it fairly frequently. And as Andreos1 said, if I'm going to Hetton or Sourh Hetton I'll often opt to get a 20 then get a 35/35C/X35 etc from Houghton. I've seen journeys get quite full with a few standees but also seen very empty runs.
Both services I would of thought could justify some investment and both would justify deckers although taking my observations into account I'd argue the 20 justifies them more on passengers numbers but hey I don't know.

(03 Jan 2014, 10:49 pm)andreos1 wrote Edit edit. Another point to make is the size of the PVR.
Replacing the fleet on the 35's and displacing them elsewhere has a massive impact on replacing older vehicles - more so than the 20's, which has a smaller PVR.

This I agree with - but why would it be rumoured that the 20 is going to receive the Citaro vehicles from the 35 if it was so great though? It wouldn't - it too would be in line to receive direct investment. Investment was avoided in the past too when they re-branded the vehicles - this no doubt was chosen in favour of investment. All of this must be telling you something...

If what has been said is true, then instead of just having a few Solars spare for Renown withdrawal, you'd have 12 Mercs and about 18 (?) Solars. The latter option seems more attractive - but there must be something preventing this investment, and that has to be linked to profit levels rather than anything else. Like I said before, the 20 does not have consistently high passenger numbers. It may have one bus where you're like 'canned sardines' (or however It has been described), but the next journey is near enough empty. If you replace Solars with heavy weight double deckers and some journeys are flying about empty, it's not gonna be long before you start to make a loss on some journeys. I rest my case.

(03 Jan 2014, 11:43 pm)CatsFast101 wrote Going to stick my two peneth in, I've noticed the 20 I get most weeks from Durham into Sunderland. And the journey if get most Tuesday and the occasional Thursday is the 12:52 departure and that departs with steady passengers of about 12-14 passengers, a few pensioners but majority paying passengers, usual two teenagers who pay 90p also. However if I'm delayed, I get the 1:02 journey and have noticed this to be much more packed, I once was finished my meeting early and went to Durham City retail park, and upon boarding the 20 was forced to stand all the way until Houghton!
Meanwhile, the 35 is equally as hitty missy I don't use the 35 very often but I use it fairly frequently. And as Andreos1 said, if I'm going to Hetton or Sourh Hetton I'll often opt to get a 20 then get a 35/35C/X35 etc from Houghton. I've seen journeys get quite full with a few standees but also seen very empty runs.
Both services I would of thought could justify some investment and both would justify deckers although taking my observations into account I'd argue the 20 justifies them more on passengers numbers but hey I don't know.

Ah whey, at least you are another regular passenger who observes how busy the 20's get and how others utilise the service.

(04 Jan 2014, 11:55 am)andreos1 wrote Ah whey, at least you are another regular passenger who observes how busy the 20's get and how others utilise the service.

Regular? Surely to be a 'regular passenger' and have a good idea of what loadings are like, you need to be travelling at different times of the day and on various days of the week, and should be travelling across the entire route while doing so?

A few weeks ago, I stood at Park Lane for about 30-40 minutes and observed the loadings of the Prince Bishops 20/20A... That was on a Saturday.
I'll do the same at Durham when I next go, and then I'll do the same with the Laser.
I can't say the results I got were overly great (considering 3 OAPs = 1 passenger).

(04 Jan 2014, 12:02 pm)Dan wrote Regular? Surely to be a 'regular passenger' and have a good idea of what loadings are like, you need to be travelling at different times of the day and on various days of the week, and should be travelling across the entire route while doing so?

every time I've used the 20/20A its being busy but this normally between 8-10am.

The 35 is quite busy to along Durham road.

Between 9:30 and 10:30 u have no chance of getting seat cause its OAP hour..

(04 Jan 2014, 12:05 pm)Michael wrote every time I've used the 20/20A its being busy but this normally between 8-10am.

The 35 is quite busy to along Durham road.

Yup, and then between 4-6pm the loadings should be equally as good.
You're talking from 11am-3pm where things may not be as good. I'd be shunned if I brought figures into this though, so I best not...

The decision making from 'GNE Towers' won't ever please some people!

(03 Jan 2014, 11:43 pm)CatsFast101 wrote Going to stick my two peneth in, I've noticed the 20 I get most weeks from Durham into Sunderland. And the journey if get most Tuesday and the occasional Thursday is the 12:52 departure and that departs with steady passengers of about 12-14 passengers, a few pensioners but majority paying passengers, usual two teenagers who pay 90p also. However if I'm delayed, I get the 1:02 journey and have noticed this to be much more packed, I once was finished my meeting early and went to Durham City retail park, and upon boarding the 20 was forced to stand all the way until Houghton!

(03 Jan 2014, 10:08 pm)Tom wrote Well passenger numbers on the 20/20A were mixed today. 5213 on the 20A left Durham Millburngate full, around 3:30. But the next one, which was 4990, left with only 5 or so passengers

This shows consistency, Andreos?

(04 Jan 2014, 12:07 pm)Dan wrote Yup, and then between 4-6pm the loadings should be equally as good.

You're talking from 11am-3pm where things may not be as good. I'd be shunned if I brought figures into this though, so I best not...
The decision making from 'GNE Towers' won't ever please some people!

Tbh i think both services are doing well for passengers numbers, all services have a slip up during the day of passenger numbers.

Its up to GNE what they want new buses on.. never know plans might change and both services might get decker's or they might not get anything new... plans can change quickly.

(04 Jan 2014, 12:02 pm)Dan wrote Regular? Surely to be a 'regular passenger' and have a good idea of what loadings are like, you need to be travelling at different times of the day and on various days of the week, and should be travelling across the entire route while doing so?

A few weeks ago, I stood at Park Lane for about 30-40 minutes and observed the loadings of the Prince Bishops 20/20A... That was on a Saturday.
I'll do the same at Durham when I next go, and then I'll do the same with the Laser.
I can't say the results I got were overly great (considering 3 OAPs = 1 passenger).

Why are you shouting everyone down over this, I use the 20 about 10 times a week (Board Inn-Interchange, Houghton-Belmont, Durham-Sunderland etc.) I'd class my self as fairly regular passenger, you've admitted you don't use the 20 all to often so see it at park Lane a few times you happen to be passing but you now somewhat think that your opinion is superior over mine, Andreos1, and few others who have agreed with us. Why not take everyone's opinion on board instead of trying to prove everyone else wrong to prove you're right, we have no idea why the 35 would be put ahead of the 20 for upgrade; it could be argued the 35's have more potentional passengers due running two quite different routes (35/35A). However who's to say that the 20 and 35 may receive investment this year? We just don't know at this stage. I've given instance of the 20 loading at different points in the route however your Saturday observation at the termination point appears to be what you thinking we should al be be taken note of much more than my opinion.

(04 Jan 2014, 12:11 pm)Michael wrote Tbh i think both services are doing well for passengers numbers, all services have a slip up during the day of passenger numbers.

Its up to GNE what they want new buses on.. never know plans might change and both services might get decker's or they might not get anything new... plans can change quickly.

W'hey! Why is it up to GNE? Because they have the official figures, and they can determine how much profit the services are making.
Wouldn't be a very good business case if we only considered two journeys on Tuesday and Thursday dinner times!

(04 Jan 2014, 12:13 pm)CatsFast101 wrote Why are you shouting everyone down over this, I use the 20 about 10 times a week (Board Inn-Interchange, Houghton-Belmont, Durham-Sunderland etc.) I'd class my self as fairly regular passenger, you've admitted you don't use the 20 all to often so see it at park Lane a few times you happen to be passing but you now somewhat think that your opinion is superior over mine, Andreos1, and few others who have agreed with us. Why not take everyone's opinion on board instead of trying to prove everyone else wrong to prove you're right, we have no idea why the 35 would be put ahead of the 20 for upgrade; it could be argued the 35's have more potentional passengers due running two quite different routes (35/35A). However who's to say that the 20 and 35 may receive investment this year? We just don't know at this stage. I've given instance of the 20 loading at different points in the route however your Saturday observation at the termination point appears to be what you thinking we should al be be taken note of much more than my opinion.

Isn't this just a 'debate', as Andreos1 said? Nothing wrong with that, don't take it personally!
I have no view on this matter - I'm just going by the fact the Prince Bishops have not yet had an order alluded, but the Laser has... Of course there is plenty of scope for change, but if the Laser is down at this early stage for investment yet the Bishops isn't... That definitely tells me something.
So does the fact the PVR for the Bishops is still wholly Solar operated, and the fact it has only ever received re-brands.

I took an opinion from Andreos1 on board and said I agreed, but gave a reason for why I disagree when looking at the picture in full, and nowt was said!

(04 Jan 2014, 12:11 pm)Michael wrote Tbh i think both services are doing well for passengers numbers, all services have a slip up during the day of passenger numbers.

Its up to GNE what they want new buses on.. never know plans might change and both services might get decker's or they might not get anything new... plans can change quickly.

Totally agree with this.

However, as I have hinted at - the decision to upgrade may be more to do with competition, the impact of vehicle displacement and the routes they operate, rather than being based solely on passenger numbers and revenue (which should be similar).

(04 Jan 2014, 12:11 pm)Dan wrote This shows consistency, Andreos?

The 35 isn't consistent either! I've been on a 35 with two pensioners, 2 90p fares and two fare paying passengers (one been myself) from Board Inn-Hetton Interchange. I've also been a 35C from Shields to Sunderland that only had about 12 passengers on a sunny Sunday daytime at 3pm.

(04 Jan 2014, 12:18 pm)andreos1 wrote Totally agree with this.

Eee, well at least we agree on something.
GNE know best. Not us.